A little phone call from the principal - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Marvelous Marv · 12-02-2005, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Disaffected feeling

A gay high school student sues Garden Grove Unified, citing discrimination after her refusal to stop kissing and hugging.

By FERMIN LEAL and NGUYEN HUY VU
The Orange County Register

Garden Grove - A gay high school student filed suit Wednesday against Garden Grove Unified School District, claiming she was suspended several times and forced to temporarily transfer because she refused to stop hugging and kissing her girlfriend on campus.

Charlene Nguon, a 17-year-old honor student, said Santiago High School Principal Ben Wolf discriminated against her and her girlfriend last school year because the couple was openly affectionate. Meanwhile, heterosexual couples who kissed went unpunished, she said.

District spokesman Alan Trudell said, "The only thing I can say is that this district doesn't engage in any discriminatory practices."

Wolf and other Garden Grove Unified officials, through Trudell, declined to comment on the lawsuit because staff had not yet reviewed it.

During a Los Angeles news conference organized by the American Civil Liberties Union, Nguon said, "I'm very stubborn and I don't like it when people try to stomp on my rights."

Nguon finished the last three months of the year at Bolsa Grande High, but is being allowed to return to Santiago for her senior year. The first day of classes is today [Thursday, September 8, 2005].

The Santa Ana resident and her girlfriend, Trang Nguyen, 16, allege that Wolf told them not to show affection toward each other after they began dating as juniors last year. Throughout the year, the two defied the order and continued to hug and kiss on campus despite suspensions rangin from one to five days, the suit says. Eventually, Wolf demanded that one of them transfer to another school, Nguon says in the suit.

Nguon's mother, Crystal Chhun, said Wednesday that she found out about her daughter's sexual orientation when Wolf called her into his office in December. He told her Nguon and her girlfriend were sitting with their arms around each other, talking with a heterosexual couple near the school parking lot.

"I don't care about that," Chhun said. "She is a good girl with a good report card."

The displays "were very tame: a quick hug or kiss goodbye in the parking lot or at the end of the lunch hour," said Elizabeth Brennan, a spokeswoman with the ACLU, which is representing Nguon.

Several parents contacted said they would prefer that public displays of affection by all students, regardless of their sexual orientation, be discouraged at school.

"I think school is a place for learning, but there a lot of times when kids are looking at other kids at school who they think are cute and hot," said Julienne Smith of Yorba Linda, author of "Food for Talk," a book on frank conversation at the dinner table.

"It's a natural thing and standard operating procedure for 16-, 17- and 18-year-olds to hold hands," she said. "I don't know how appropriate it is for couples to be hooking up on campus. It can certainly be a distraction. I think kissing is much more of going over the line because some people could be offended."

The Gay/Straight Alliance Network also joined in the suit, claiming district policies on displays of affection are not applied equally to gay and heterosexual students.

The suit seeks unspecified monetary damages and legal fees, as well as erasure of Nguon's disciplinary records and a guarantee that gay students will not be harassed.

There's a LOT more I want to know about this case. For starters, I'd like to know who's telling the truth in regard to how equitably straights and gays are treated in regard to PDAs. Secondly, I'd like to know a little more about the alleged "outing." I assume the mother would ask the reason for a suspension; if the principal said, "Because your daughter is engaging in PDAs with Trang Nguyen," that's simply a factual accounting of the reason. If their displays were indeed public, I disagree that she was "outed."

Sounds like a money grab to me, but I'm sure I'll hear from people who think otherwise.

tspikes51 · 12-02-2005, 10:41 PM

^Not from me. I have no sympathy for people who break rules repeatedly and then play the minority card. It's very simple: if you're getting in trouble for it, expect to get in trouble if you do it again.

Just to give a unique point of view, if 2 girls were kissing when I was in high school, I would have been distracted to say the least. Maybe the faculty was trying to maintain a good learning environment, or at least one free of such distractions; in other words, maybe they were trying to do their jobs. But, then again, who are they to tell a couple of 16 year olds who are still developing their sexual identities what is detrimental to the educational process???

martinguerre · 12-02-2005, 11:12 PM

outing can be about intention.

it seems like the principle acted like he thought this was a secret he could reveal, to another's disadvantage.

that's an outing.

this school is in OC...i can't imagine that there aren't other couples hooking up with out getting this kind of attentionn poured on them.

analog · 12-03-2005, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tspikes51

^Not from me. I have no sympathy for people who break rules repeatedly and then play the minority card. It's very simple: if you're getting in trouble for it, expect to get in trouble if you do it again.

They're not arguing the infraction, they're arguing the way it's being handled, and the ridiculous penalties being put on them- penalties they feel far outweigh anything a hetero couple would get. That's a glaring inequality, if it's true. It has nothing to do with the infraction- it has to do with whether or not the "rules" are being used to punish them, but if they're being overlooked and unapplied to the hetero couples.

I have never, ever heard of a straight couple getting suspended- let alone multiple suspensions- or going anywhere near as far as getting transferred to other schools. I have seen hetero couples get caught fucking in the bathroom and get one day of in-school suspension, or a written warning. That, I have seen several times, actually. My high school had a large common area for between classes and at lunches, and I never saw any of the dozens of hugging and smooching couples get anything more than a passing glance. There is no way my school in Florida was more progressive 7, 8 or 9 years ago than an OC, California high school is today. Hugging and kissing (note that if they were "making out", the principal would most certainly have painted the picture that way) does not lead to multiple suspensions and beyond. I have an extremely hard time buying that he's anywhere near as hard-nosed towards the straight couples. If he was, he'd be able to easily cite several examples. From all this, I gather no such examples exist.

FatFreeGoodness · 12-04-2005, 04:36 PM

"They're not arguing the infraction, they're arguing the way it's being handled, and the ridiculous penalties being put on them- penalties they feel far outweigh anything a hetero couple would get. That's a glaring inequality, if it's true."

Not at all. If a male and female were repeatedly told to cool their PDAs at the school, even after being penalized (suspended) several times because of it, and still continued, I think they would get the same treatment. No foul here.

However, I will go further: You don't have to treat everyone the same, because they are not the same. If a female dashed across the gym topless, this would be grounds for suspension. If a male did it, it would not. If a male wore lipstick and makeup to school it appropriate to demand that this be stopped, while I assume many females do just that. This is not because he does not have the right to be different, it’s because he does not have the right to be distracting while at school.
In a similar way to individuals being treated differently, couples may be treated differently if their behavior has different effects. I suspect that there is a rule against any PDA of any kind at the school. However, high school being what it is, that rule is difficult to enforce completely so they only go after obvious or disruptive incidents. These students got "dinged" for both.
Once the students got dinged once for being disruptive together, they had more attention paid to them. They chose to repeatedly defy the rules and got into hot water repeatedly.
Assuming the article has the facts correct and there are no important omissions, I think the school did the correct thing.

la petite moi · 12-04-2005, 04:44 PM

I applaud this young lady. When I was in high school (and dating a boy), I held hands and kissed (on the cheek) my best girl friend. It was in no way sexual, and yet, I was teased constantly by several people. I was always called lesbian, dyke, etc. It didn't really bother me, until one boy who was in the majority of my classes WOULD NOT stop harassing me. When I finally mustered the courage up to talk to the dean about how the boy kept calling me a lesbian and dyke during class, the dean just asked: Well, are you? (WTF?!)

Anyway, I understand how this girl is feeling discriminated against. I was never harassed or called "hetero" or "straight" when I was kissing my boyfriend (in a much more sexual manner than when I kissed my girl friend), but it's alright to harass someone if they peck someone of the same sex?

And FatFreeGoodness, are homosexuals supposed to HIDE their love for each other? No, I don't think so. If people get all upset over two girls/guys kissing, then that's their fault. About your argument of girls and boys showing their chests- at my old high school, if any boy was seen with their shirt off at school, he would immediately be asked to put it back on or go to the office to wear a nasty PE shirt. Same with girls who showed too much cleavage.

Ustwo · 12-04-2005, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinguerre

outing can be about intention.
.

I disagree, if you don't want to be 'outed' you don't out yourself to your school and NOT expect it to get back to your parents.

martinguerre · 12-04-2005, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I disagree, if you don't want to be 'outed' you don't out yourself to your school and NOT expect it to get back to your parents.

And if your friend tells you that he thought Tyra Banks was hot, you'd tell his wife over drinks?

Outing can be about intention.

Ustwo · 12-04-2005, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinguerre

And if your friend tells you that he thought Tyra Banks was hot, you'd tell his wife over drinks?

Outing can be about intention.

Perhaps it speaks well of my wife and my friends wives but such would never be an issue.

I see your point but I just don't think it bears any weight.

On a side note, having gone to a catholic high school, I can say that they would not tolerate it from a heterosexual couple either, and I do not recall a single PDA in or around the school.

martinguerre · 12-04-2005, 11:39 PM

didn't think it would convince you...or really think about if it was personally applicable. but information that might not matter one way or another can be used maliciously if it's told with bad intent. try to embarass someone with something, it doesn't really matter what their feelings about that information...you still gave it a try, right?

to the side note...if enforcement really was that uniform in this situation...there wouldn't be an issue.

nice sig line, btw.

analog · 12-05-2005, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatFreeGoodness

Not at all. If a male and female were repeatedly told to cool their PDAs at the school, even after being penalized (suspended) several times because of it, and still continued, I think they would get the same treatment. No foul here.

First of all, my post was not about the penalties for the infraction being the same- it was about whether or not penalties are even being handed out the same. My whole point was that, while the penalties obviously exist, I am in extreme doubt that any such penalties are being put on the "straight" couples- as in, straight couples are not being punished for doing the same thing. It was the center of my entire post.

Quote:

However, I will go further: You don't have to treat everyone the same, because they are not the same. If a female dashed across the gym topless, this would be grounds for suspension. If a male did it, it would not. If a male wore lipstick and makeup to school it appropriate to demand that this be stopped, while I assume many females do just that. This is not because he does not have the right to be different, it’s because he does not have the right to be distracting while at school.
In a similar way to individuals being treated differently, couples may be treated differently if their behavior has different effects. I suspect that there is a rule against any PDA of any kind at the school. However, high school being what it is, that rule is difficult to enforce completely so they only go after obvious or disruptive incidents. These students got "dinged" for both.
Once the students got dinged once for being disruptive together, they had more attention paid to them. They chose to repeatedly defy the rules and got into hot water repeatedly.
Assuming the article has the facts correct and there are no important omissions, I think the school did the correct thing.

Why is it a distraction, or any more of a distraction if one part of the student body does it already? It's not like if someone strapped a dildo to their forehead... so the decision rests on whether or not sexual orientation carries into the "distraction" factor, and whether or not sexual orientation is a protected right of minors in a public school. Regardless, like I said, the only thing that realyl matters here is whether or not the "straight" couples' infractions are being penalized equally.

You say that the couple was "dinged" for being obvious and disruptive. I say it's only more "obvious" than a straight couple if you're a bigot towards gays, and only more "disruptive" if you believe that all the kids attending the school are also bigots- it should only matter that you are more visually enthralled by it if you're a bigot. In other words, if you weren't against it, it wouldn't matter that it sticks out a little more for YOU.

If i'm out somewhere, gay couples don't visually jump out at me like they're in a spotlight or glowing, and their "PDA"s don't strike me any differently than a straight couple's would. I can't imagine any argument that gay/lesbian PDA's are more distracting that isn't just someone

Toaster126 · 12-05-2005, 05:08 AM

I'm assuming the school has anti-PDA rules for everyone, like most school districts nowadays, but is being more viligant enforcing them for the ladies kissing. I think the principal should have involved the parent(s) earlier, when the suspensions were first being handed out and they weren't working. The parent invite seems like a cheap attempt to shock the parent.

Gilda · 12-05-2005, 05:20 PM

I'm with the toaster.

There's little doubt in my mind that they have PDA rules, nor that they're sinlging out these two girls for their displays. I know we had rules like that where I went to school, and it wasn't unusual to see girls being very clingy with the guys, but I don't think I ever remember anything more than a verbal warning in passing.

On the other hand, Principal Wolf must be covering up for his own repressed homosexuality. Bear with me just a second. There are two teenaged girls--Asian teenaged girls--who are engaged in PDA's. And he objects to this. This is not typical straight male behavior.

Gilda

SecretMethod70 · 12-05-2005, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilda

There are two teenaged girls--Asian teenaged girls--who are engaged in PDA's. And he objects to this. This is not typical straight male behavior.

Hehe, how true

Marvelous Marv · 12-05-2005, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilda

I'm with the toaster.

There's little doubt in my mind that they have PDA rules, nor that they're sinlging out these two girls for their displays. I know we had rules like that where I went to school, and it wasn't unusual to see girls being very clingy with the guys, but I don't think I ever remember anything more than a verbal warning in passing.

On the other hand, Principal Wolf must be covering up for his own repressed homosexuality. Bear with me just a second. There are two teenaged girls--Asian teenaged girls--who are engaged in PDA's. And he objects to this. This is not typical straight male behavior.

Gilda

You've hit on the solution. He should have proved his heterosexuality by asking them to join him in a threesome, or at least suggested that they let him watch them in action.

I still maintain that it's not an "outing" unless one of the girls discussed her orientation with a counselor or other school official in what she assumed was a confidential situation. How do you report to a parent that their child was engaging in prohibited PDAs WITHOUT mentioning who the other party was?

Willravel · 12-05-2005, 06:24 PM

I regularly made out with my hs girlfriend. I don't know of any school who made hugging against the rules. Maybe kissing, as it can get pretty serious, but hugging? I call discrimination. Is there a video tape of the girls?

snowy · 12-05-2005, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toaster126

I'm assuming the school has anti-PDA rules for everyone, like most school districts nowadays, but is being more viligant enforcing them for the ladies kissing. I think the principal should have involved the parent(s) earlier, when the suspensions were first being handed out and they weren't working. The parent invite seems like a cheap attempt to shock the parent.

I'm surprised he didn't.

At my high school we had PDA rules, and everyone signed a form at the beginning of the school year saying that they would abide by the rules in the school handbook or else face disciplinary action (parents also had to sign the form).

I don't think anyone should have to watch other students make out in the hall, regardless of sexual orientation. I think that perhaps what happened is that these ladies' punishment was more noticeable simply because of the situation.

As for this girl being irritated that she was outed by her principal--as a minor she has no right to expect confidentiality in the principal's office unless her principal has agreed to keep it confidential--and that really only applies to situations such as sexual abuse, not sexual orientation. Also, given that she was making out with her girlfriend in the hallway--she's not exactly fully in the closet. Her parents could have probably just as easily found out from a peer or teacher as the principal.

12-02-2005, 10:41 PM	#2 (permalink)
tspikes51 Fuckin' A Location: Lex Vegas	^Not from me. I have no sympathy for people who break rules repeatedly and then play the minority card. It's very simple: if you're getting in trouble for it, expect to get in trouble if you do it again. Just to give a unique point of view, if 2 girls were kissing when I was in high school, I would have been distracted to say the least. Maybe the faculty was trying to maintain a good learning environment, or at least one free of such distractions; in other words, maybe they were trying to do their jobs. But, then again, who are they to tell a couple of 16 year olds who are still developing their sexual identities what is detrimental to the educational process??? __________________ "I'm telling you, we need to get rid of a few people or a million." -Maddox

12-02-2005, 11:12 PM	#3 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	outing can be about intention. it seems like the principle acted like he thought this was a secret he could reveal, to another's disadvantage. that's an outing. this school is in OC...i can't imagine that there aren't other couples hooking up with out getting this kind of attentionn poured on them. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

12-04-2005, 04:44 PM	#6 (permalink)
la petite moi Filling the Void. Location: California	I applaud this young lady. When I was in high school (and dating a boy), I held hands and kissed (on the cheek) my best girl friend. It was in no way sexual, and yet, I was teased constantly by several people. I was always called lesbian, dyke, etc. It didn't really bother me, until one boy who was in the majority of my classes WOULD NOT stop harassing me. When I finally mustered the courage up to talk to the dean about how the boy kept calling me a lesbian and dyke during class, the dean just asked: Well, are you? (WTF?!) Anyway, I understand how this girl is feeling discriminated against. I was never harassed or called "hetero" or "straight" when I was kissing my boyfriend (in a much more sexual manner than when I kissed my girl friend), but it's alright to harass someone if they peck someone of the same sex? And FatFreeGoodness, are homosexuals supposed to HIDE their love for each other? No, I don't think so. If people get all upset over two girls/guys kissing, then that's their fault. About your argument of girls and boys showing their chests- at my old high school, if any boy was seen with their shirt off at school, he would immediately be asked to put it back on or go to the office to wear a nasty PE shirt. Same with girls who showed too much cleavage. Last edited by la petite moi; 12-04-2005 at 04:47 PM..

12-04-2005, 11:39 PM	#10 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	didn't think it would convince you...or really think about if it was personally applicable. but information that might not matter one way or another can be used maliciously if it's told with bad intent. try to embarass someone with something, it doesn't really matter what their feelings about that information...you still gave it a try, right? to the side note...if enforcement really was that uniform in this situation...there wouldn't be an issue. nice sig line, btw. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

12-05-2005, 05:08 AM	#12 (permalink)
Toaster126 Extreme moderation Location: Kansas City, yo.	I'm assuming the school has anti-PDA rules for everyone, like most school districts nowadays, but is being more viligant enforcing them for the ladies kissing. I think the principal should have involved the parent(s) earlier, when the suspensions were first being handed out and they weren't working. The parent invite seems like a cheap attempt to shock the parent. __________________ "The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand) "The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

12-04-2005, 04:36 PM	#5 (permalink)
FatFreeGoodness Tilted	"They're not arguing the infraction, they're arguing the way it's being handled, and the ridiculous penalties being put on them- penalties they feel far outweigh anything a hetero couple would get. That's a glaring inequality, if it's true." Not at all. If a male and female were repeatedly told to cool their PDAs at the school, even after being penalized (suspended) several times because of it, and still continued, I think they would get the same treatment. No foul here. However, I will go further: You don't have to treat everyone the same, because they are *not* the same. If a female dashed across the gym topless, this would be grounds for suspension. If a male did it, it would not. If a male wore lipstick and makeup to school it appropriate to demand that this be stopped, while I assume many females do just that. This is not because he does not have the right to be different, it’s because he does not have the right to be distracting while at school. In a similar way to individuals being treated differently, couples may be treated differently if their behavior has different effects. I suspect that there is a rule against any PDA of any kind at the school. However, high school being what it is, that rule is difficult to enforce completely so they only go after obvious or disruptive incidents. These students got "dinged" for both. Once the students got dinged once for being disruptive together, they had more attention paid to them. They chose to repeatedly defy the rules and got into hot water repeatedly. Assuming the article has the facts correct and there are no important omissions, I think the school did the correct thing.

12-05-2005, 05:20 PM	#13 (permalink)
Gilda 32 flavors and then some Location: Out on a wire.	I'm with the toaster. There's little doubt in my mind that they have PDA rules, nor that they're sinlging out these two girls for their displays. I know we had rules like that where I went to school, and it wasn't unusual to see girls being very clingy with the guys, but I don't think I ever remember anything more than a verbal warning in passing. On the other hand, Principal Wolf must be covering up for his own repressed homosexuality. Bear with me just a second. There are two teenaged girls--Asian teenaged girls--who are engaged in PDA's. And he objects to this. This is not typical straight male behavior. Gilda __________________ I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert

12-05-2005, 06:24 PM	#16 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I regularly made out with my hs girlfriend. I don't know of any school who made hugging against the rules. Maybe kissing, as it can get pretty serious, but hugging? I call discrimination. Is there a video tape of the girls?