Fire

The recent events in france have made me think- we often think that we have it tough here, and we do have a long way to go as far as racial equality goes... any way at present, 11 days of riots- and it is getting worse, not better- Why also, is there so little news coverage on whats going on playing here in the states..... what do tfp'ers in europe think, and what does everyone out there think this means for the future- more riots in other countries, worse stuff to come?

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Pragma

To be perfectly honest (and display my ignorance), I had no idea what the hell you were talking about until I went and looked. Now, this past week I've been living in a hole working on a massive project for my job on campus, but I'd like to believe I would have at least heard something about it in the US, even while busy.

Is this all because of those two kids who got electrocuted while running from the cops?

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Bill O'Rights

It's not just you. I just found out this past Saturday (two days ago), and wondered what rock I've been under.

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alansmithee

It's France. Nobody in America cares.

Leto

this has been big news in the papers / TV etc for the past week in Toronto. I noticed that CNN had some (smaller coverage) this morning tho.

Actually, I am questioning the CNN editor's sanity these days. Last night's headliner news was a prison break in Texas. Meanwhile all the Canadian stations were reporting massive damage from some tornado strikes in Kentucky & Indiana. It took a long time for CNN to pick up that story.

I notice now that the French rioting has claimed a fatality (from the CNN website). But I too wonder how our European TFP'ers feel. Is this something that will continue to spread across boarders? To Germany? Spain?

* edit: it may be related, or not, but there are car fires in Berlin now...

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tecoyah

I almost started a thread last week...the title was:

France Surrenders......to the french

But thought better of it....heh

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Leto

I started to think, that maybe, just maybe the fact that it is France there would be a policy reason to down play the news. But naaaa. But then, after reading alansmithee's post.. It could very well be true.

(good one Tecoyah, but I wonder of any of the French seriously consider the rioters to be truly French. They aren't pure laine so to speak)

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billege

I'd have thought, because the rioters seem to be primarily Muslim, that someone in the US would have latched on it as a "Look the terrorists are everywhere" kind of thing. Especially since you could browbeat France with it, in a "SEE WE TOLD YOU THEY'RE EVERYWHERE" kind of manner.

I can't say I've read enough about this to understand what the deal-y is. On the way home from work, I listen to the BBC World Service, it's been high on thier list. The gist I got was that yet more poor, unhappy, mulsim young men are rioting. Not sure what the truth of the matter is.

Any help from a European TFPers would be appreicated. Judging a story by what we hear in the media over here is bound to be an exercise in futility.

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Furry

/ A European TFPer has joined the thread.
/ Message begins.

The deal is roughly as follows:

Immigration in the 60's and 70's led to a sharp rise in accomodation demand for work-seekers, primarily from Morroco, Algeria and the other former French African colonies.
The state started building what were at the time very modern, very well thought out housing projects (read: flats/apartments) in the suburbs. People moved in, the areas flourished, Algerian cleaners sat down and had coffee with white teachers etc etc, things worked more or less well.

Here's the important bit. France has a Republican Integration model. Once you're here and get citizenship - especially if you're from a former colony, you are officially French.
Not Algerian/Morrocan etc. French. It was an idea that was supposed to erase the lines between ethnic groups and countries of extraction - you might be white and native, your neighbor might be from Algeria looking for a new life - doesn't matter, you're both French.

However, an Ecosociological phenomenon followed. The investment in these areas was not kept up. Shops closed, rich(er) white people moved away. There was a migration to the more expensive suburbs that tended to have a growing quality of life by white people who still retained a veneer of unease about living next to all the immigrants - either that or they just wanted to go somewhere nicer. Slowly but surely, due to growing mis/noninvestment in these areas, the people who could afford to get out, could - and those that didn't - all the immigrants on low-income jobs - stayed behind.
Gangs gradually moved in. Police became wary. The downward spiral continued.

Things then changed again. The second generation of immigrants (who by now are in the 15-25 age range) suddenly discovered that, due to the gradual decay and the never-really upheld ideal of "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" they were growing up in the "wrong" part of town. Those who tried to find jobs - and there were many at first - suddenly found that having a name like Mahmoud or Satek literally shut the door on employers. They would be told that the vacancy had been filled. People just didn't want to employ them, and this is the second important bit.

Second and third generation French citizens whose parents came from the former colonies are still seen as immigrants. They are seen as unemployable by the wider part of French society. Sink schools and high dropout rates from education complete the cycle They are shunned, officially and on the street.

I've seen it here myself. I live in one of the towns that has been hit by rioting (50 or so cars burned last night) and I can tell you, as a fact, that in two months here I have seen very few non-white people in the main square (read:richest part) in the centre of town (As a proportation). There are places where these people are simply not welcome.

France claims to be all for equality - it's even in the national motto - but there is an underlying, visceral racism here that I can see in action from day to day. It's not about Islam, even though the laws on religious symbols found their first targets in those whose religion decree visible dress differences - Muslims. It IS true that the affected part of society tends to adhere to that religion, but I see it as a co-incidental fact and as a factor discrete from the overall problem.

I'll write more about this depending on what the news brings, and when I've done a little more thinking on the issue. The press over here is split on its reactions, although government criticism does feature heavily. This is one news item where cross-reading is essential, and I'll be doing exactly that over the next few days. This (for those of you who are politics or sociology students or workers) has the potential to become an issue for wider European integration, which has been moving full-pace since 2002/3. The way that the larger European block treats its citizens will be the making or breaking of closer European ties.

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SERPENT7

Furry,
awsome post.
That is exactly what i was hoping for.
Something informative from a knowledgeable perspective.

ubertuber

Wow Furry - great post. What do the average "people on the street" think of what's happening? In the articles I have read, they have been collecting quotes from the immigrant population and mostly ignoring the mainstream opinions.

Is this bias embedded in the system or is it in the hearts of every Jean Deaux?

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liquidlight

More small-minded, selfish, egoists screwing things up for other people. . . on both sides if you ask me.

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feelgood

Is France in a moment in history as United States was during the racial revolution back in the 60s or something?

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Furry

Thanks for that lovely feedback.

UberTuber - My landlady thinks that we should call in the Army, and seems not to care for the wider social phenomenon.

Seeing as this town's Eurostar station is sometimes manned with police carrying assault rifles, I'd guess that most people would be supportive of military intervention IF the riot police can't handle it - they've been fired upon with shotguns as of last night (In Paris, not here. Here seems to be arson and general unrest so far)

I'm originally from the UK - I'm not used to seeing police carrying heavy weapons in public. Over here all police carry handguns - as in the US.

I will ask more questions - maybe I can ask my local baker tomorrow.

I won't go as far to say that the problem is embedded within the system because I just don't know enough about general attitudes over here to comment. The institute where I study is traditionally elitist and I've been suffering from culture shock over the past eight weeks. There's a narrow cross-section of society there.

I do know, however, that it's a majority proportion of the population that holds these views - you just don't see Africans or Muslims mentioned on TV, unless its in the context of famine or Islam. On a personal note, even my french family over here hold views firmly in that mould.

Liquidlight - the problem goes beyond that. You're right, but in the beginning there seems to have been a genuine desire on both sides - if you can call them that - to integrate. The main problems stem more from apathy from the government leading to a change in mental attitudes over the years on the part of the people and of the succesive governments than active, from-the-word-go racism - although sadly it has ended up like that.

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SERPENT7

fg,
i wondered the same thing.
The watts riots occured when the ghettos hit 30% unemployment. Guess what the unemployment rate is for the muslim ghettos. Thats right, 30% (60% if your are only counting the male, black, african-descended 18-35 y.o.s! 60%!)
It will be interesting to see if the gov can get control, or if it will turn into an 'Aparthied' (Its actually called the millet, which is where the area is organized and ruled according to the koran) system as many of the minority spokesmen seem to be calling for.

snowy

I think the incident of the boys being electrocuted is just the straw that finally broke the camel's back, so to speak.

A lot of this has been building up for a long time, as Furry said. After the second night of riots, the sidebar on the page featuring the story on the BBC had links to several other stories regarding immigrants in France--and some of these stories, featuring among other things the employment difficulties and integration problems, date back years.

France will never allow any form of apartheid or millet to happen, I promise you that. That's just not French

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stevie667

I'm very tempted to say good, but that wouldn't be very PC of me, nor very nice.
But then again, it is france...

To be honest, send in the army, send in the mounted police, stop acting like a bunch of pansies and crush these damn riots already. Jeez, how hard is it? *it's a rhetorical question before everyone goes uber-nuts on that statment*


Feelgood - No, france is not in a similar part of it's social development as america was in the 60's, theres been some race riots because lots of people don't like each other. Lots of tension has built up then burst, as soon as all of this gets over with, it'll go back to how it was again, albeit with more people paying attention.

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Cynthetiq

I'm in America and have friends there... I care. Maybe you don't but please don't use such a generalized statement as NOBODY.

I have been wondering just when it was going to make it to the TFP and how quickly a comment like this would come out.

Seems that you didn't seem to re read the charter that Halx bothered to make us all re-confirm again...

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Psycho Dad

I too was surprised at how little news coverage this has seemed to attract. Part of it I chalked up to me being on I40 for a good bit last week on a nonstop journey and news was not something that I listened to very much at that time. In fact the first I heard about it on the road was two morning DJs commenting it was because the French now hate the French also. Perhaps CNN, MSNBC and Fox don’t see this getting as much advertising interest as other stories at the moment.

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Halx

I spoke to a lady who is from France. She basically said, "It's tradition."

It's the French way. Let something build up over time until it boils over and there is a ... revolution.

C'est la vie.

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Elphaba

Hal... "Off with their heads" or would it be "let them eat cake?"

That "tradition" was approximately 200 years ago. In that case, we have a tradition as well.

squirrelyburt

I'm amazed that there has been nearly nothing on US media about this, I had to search online to find some info. Funny how the reports that are out there call the rioters ''youths''....no mention of their connection to Islam... I fear this is another world war and we just dont see it yet.

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Pragma

I'd imagine that the reference to the rioters as simply "youths" is to try to stifle any racism-fueled controversy about it. As for it being another world war that we don't see yet, I think that would be overstating the problem greatly. I think this will be a pretty big issue for France to deal with, but I couldn't really see it spreading beyond France - as from what was stated early, it's really all about how the French view immigrant-French and their offspring, and those offspring lashing out.

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Halx

Nah.. she talked about another, more recent "revolution" .. I think she said.. May '68.

To her, it's nothing new.

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Gilda

Substitute big city neighborhoods and white flight and furry's post could apply to the United States from the 60's to, well, today. We should care in the US because we're still making many of the same mistakes here.

Gilda

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SERPENT7

Gilda,
I agree w/ you in theory, but the french are making the mistakes we made in the 20s-60s, when we pursued a policy of de-facto segregation known as 'jim crow'.
We no longer ignore our people, nor do we discriminate against them or disenfranchise them so blatantly. (election 2000 being the exception, of course.)

Schwan

Furry already said the important stuff. I'll just rephrase the basic points and add my opinion.

First of all, this is the result of colonialism. These people are French, because 40-60 years ago it was a french policy to take in people from their colonies. There were amny reasons for this - consider Algeria. A civil war broke out and a lot of people found themselfes on the wrong side of the barricade and had to run for their lives. The rioting youths are usually the 2-3 rd generation of imigrants. The thing is not about religion, but it could be. I can very easily see how the whole thing might turn violent (army) and result in massive backlash against France in arabic countries. France has an extremely high presence in the arab world - it's easier to talk with people in french than english in Lebanon or Syria. That, I think, is why the French haven't used force yet.

No to mention the fact that Europe has had some bad experiences with quelling riots with brute force.

Zyr

Violence is bad, mkay? But maybe this needed to happen. Not the riots, but something, to get the government to do something about the situation. Even if they stop the riots, unless they fix things, then it's going to happen again. That many people don't get that angry for no reason.

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alansmithee

Ok, maybe that was an overgeneralization. How about:

It's France, the vast majority (90%+) of Americans don't care. The others are statistically insignificant, hence why there has been relatively low coverage, and general apathy.

snowy

France has had more than its fair share of riots and revolutions besides the one we all know of in 1789. For instance, in 1830 the French people moved to replace their king and begin a consititutional monarchy. Many revolutions swept through Europe in the year 1848, and France was no exception.

If anything, by rioting and promoting civil unrest, these people are telling the world one thing: We are French.

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MexicanOnABike

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4419770.stm

almost 6000 cars torched.. that's insane.

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abaya

I tend to agree, Zyr. The first few days that this really hit the fan, I was angry... at the rioters for bringing more bad press on themselves when it clearly would not help their image (and believe me, I am pro-immigrant if nothing else); and at the French gov't, for ignoring their poor for so long and preaching an empty message of integration for decades.

That said, I think this DID need to happen. I think the white French, especially in their sleepy little towns where they would never dream of such "urban" issues hitting them square in the face, needed to wake up. I think there is a very loud, very urgent message here, and I'm not sure if it could have been communicated by any other means.

Now, I think violence against personal property is one thing... but what bothered me about these "protests" was how violence started turning against human targets. Some rioters set a woman on fire who was getting off a bus on crutches, and beat a man to death when he was trying to put out a fire in his trashcan... that stuff is inhumane and stupid, no matter what the cause. I suppose if this had been a little more organized, maybe it would have been more "dialogue" and less violence... non-violent revolution, it ain't somethin' new.

By the way, I care very much about this stuff, no matter if I am an American or not. I think we as Americans NEED to care about what goes on in other countries, jesus. Blame it on the media's skewed presentation... but at the end of the day, it's our individual job to get on the Net and find out the headlines in other countries. If everyone around here did that, I can guarantee that the world's image of Americans would change big-time.

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Marvelous Marv

I guess my news sources carried more about this than some others. One thing I noted was that creation of new jobs is very stagnant. IOW, there aren't enough jobs to go around for the population at large, which hurts the "immigrant" population to a much greater extent.

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genuinegirly

Ha! And so many French have that laissez faire perspective. Not just about this, either...

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roachboy

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/portfolio/...-704172,0.html

this is an interesting slide show of photos taken during the riot accompanied by comments from journalist from various countries, eachof whom tries to lay out the angle they are taking on them. the photos are interesting--not just long shots of things burning.....

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