maleficent

FBI:
Muslims detained at stadium weren't profiled
Profiling? In my beloved Giants stadium? Nooooo!!!! I know I've prayed plenty in Giants stadium, but it's usually in my seat...

As many times as I've been to Giants Stadium, I'm not sure where these guys were standing, but it doesn't sound like they went outside at all (which is very easy to do ... you can leave and enter (not go to your car or anyhting but you can go out for a smoke and come back in without being question) I'm not sure why this place was chosen to pray.

The security guards at the stadium have been accused a few times in the past of being 'overly zealous' with unruly fans and other episodes, and it sounds like they were relatively respectful of these guys.

There are a lot of Muslims in that area of NJ, I can't quite say I've ever seen a group of them at a football game... Soccer yes but football, not so often...

Anyhow.. I'm rambling...

Was this racial profiling?

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denim

My understanding is that they have to face toward Mecca. Not so? They might also want to be out of the crowd, to get a place which is relatively peaceful, in order to pray. Or maybe they were bomb wielding terrorist. I dunno, I wasn't there.

5757

It doesn't seem as if it was racial profiling at all. They were simply standing in a bad spot. Better safe than sorry. Now, if they hadn't closed off the area permanently, I would be a bit suspicious. Personally if I was the almighty important person there that day and I needed to be protected, I would hope that anybody standing close to an air duct acting oddly would be watched a little closer regardless of their race.
Why couldn't they go to the bathroom? I'm sure there was another area they could have prayed in. I think this was simply a wrong place/wrong time type of situation.

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billege

So far as the profiling goes, it sounds like a distinct "not."

I really feel bad for the authorities, I mean, they just can't win.

They strip search a 90 year old grandmother, out of sheer desperation to be "random," and they're slammed for not showing any "common sense." In this case, it truely sounds like a situation was handled decently.

You got the dignataries in a stadium, you got a group of guys hanging out by the air handling system, you pull 'em, question 'em, Key here: you don't overreact and do somthing stupid, you reseat 'em (just in case they *are* up to somthing, you've kinked that by moving them), then you make sure other innocent people don't get in the area you don't want them in. I mean, just what about this stinks? I'm not seeing anything.

Would it suck to go through that? Well, yes. But I can't say these guys got it any worse than the rest of America. We're all a little pissed off about people blowing us up, and we're all a little pissed off about the ensuing loss of liberies and security hassles.

If I was in a stadium I'd be damn glad the group of guys by the HVAC got pulled and questioned.

Man, when I flew to AZ this summer there was a really scruffy, dirty, dude with no luggage, a few sheets of badly refolded paper he kept in one hand, and he kept his shirt pulled up over his mouth/nose. Now, it's not normal to have one's shirt constantly pulled over your mouth/nose while you pace frentically around the gate area. Was the guy a terrorist? Well, no. Did he make a shitload of people nervous because he would sit down, basically hop in his seat, get back up, walk around, pace, and generally look sweaty and nervous as hell, all keeping his face covered? Yes, he did make us nervous. Thankfully, someone mentioned this to the gate agent, and asked that a spanish speaking person be brought to the gate to see if they could help him. I kept an ear open to the following convo. Turns out the guy was exactly what he appeared to be: One nervous-as-hell guy, with an odd tic, who spoke or read little english and couldn't decide if he was in the right place for his flight.

Sometimes, American's do show some sense. Like what I saw, this case seems like one of those times.

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martinguerre

any think it's odd that bush being there makes headlines as to why it would be justified to make the search, but Clinton is buried in the article?

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maleficent

Bush was in the stadium, I don't beleive Clinton was.... it was a joiut fundraising campaign for the two fo them

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Jinn

If I were a security guard (and I have been, with the shitty metal badge to prove it) I would certainly have questioned these guys. If I saw a group of any race / religion / etc stop what they were doing, and begin something completely different, it would catch my attention. If I realized they were PRAYING, nonetheless, I'd wonder why now was such an important time to do so. I personally didn't know they had to pray five times a day, but usually people randomly pray after they've done something stupid, or in preperation for doing something stupid. It would have taken me maybe 5 minutes to find out their true motives and move on. If they're upset by that, then they obviously don't understand how difficult it is to keep a crowd peaceable and how much you have to watch for "trouble brewing." (Doing something that the majority of other people AREN'T doing, that's trouble brewing)

just my two dimes..

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alansmithee

Even if it was racial profiling, there's no reason to make a fuss over it. I've come to the conclusion that racism is just something that anyone who doesn't look like the majority (In America, that happens to be white), or who is overly dark skinned anywhere will have to deal with. You cannot fight it, it is inevitable as the sunrise. So to my fellow mud-people I say: learn to deal or drive yourself crazy.

analog

Considering the group congregated somewhere randomly, and they now realize it's not a good idea in general for people to have access to that area by fencing it in, it's obviously not profiling. To begin with, we have no idea how far away the security detail was when they saw the men standing there. Stadiums are fucking huge, with very high, wide, and long corridors. They could have seen the men standing in a group from such a distance they couldn't tell sex or age, let alone ethnicity, and approached what they saw to simply be a group gathered in a sensitive area- an area that, for some reason, was sensitive at the time but had not previously been secured.

Since it's been secured now, and they weren't asked to do anything unreasonable, I see no issue with it at all. They didn't hold them for the entire game, they didn't kick them out or arrest them, they just had a few questions, and then reseated them. The "guarding" and "escorting" after the fact are just common sense.

Pip

The Muslim prayer ritual is best done in peace away from the crowd. It takes a bit of time and involves kneeling and stuff, it's not just folding your hands together and bowing your head. The staircase outside our staff entrance is a popular prayer spot because it's secluded and few people pass there. They scare the crap out of us sometimes because it's also a good spot for robbers to lurk. We'd never kick them out for scaring us, but I understand why the security did what they did. It was a dubious situation, I think they handled it well.

Cimarron29414

In my opinion, there is no such thing as racial profiling. It is called "good police work." If 99 out of 100 times that a particular crime occurs, the perpetrators fall within the same age,race, and gender combination - guess what?.....

If you don't like being stopped and questioned, make a positive change in the situation. Maybe you should start working a little harder at getting your 18 to 40 year-old, Muslim males to stop blowing shit up all over the world. Don't blame the police for doing their jobs, blame your "race" for giving you a bad name.

I would fall into several categories of racial profiling, and I don't complain. I'm a shoe-in for "serial killer", based on demographics. I am not a serial killer. Really. No, I mean it. I'm not. I swear.

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jorgelito

It most definitely was racial profiling.
If it was a sensitive area, why wasn't it roped off or guards posted? Sounds like the security people screwed up and took the lazy way out.

At least they weren't beaten so that's good.

So, why weren't white males racial-profiled after Oklahoma? Cimmaron, I don't understand your logic - your correlation doesn't add up.

Racial descriptives are not determinants of behavior or crime. Individuals are. If I get mugged by a white man, does that mean all white people are bad? All crimes committed against me have been by white people. Does that mean all white people committ crimes? I f I strike first would I be justified? should I pint out all white people to security cause they have committed so many crimes in the past?

Let's just call it what it is and go from there. So it's racial profliling. Now what? Well, we work on it. It sounds like the security guys were at least civil and stuff so that's good. Education would help. Better training, better planning. We can't be pulling over every black guy or searching every Latino in this country out of some irrational fear. Now it's the Muslims who can be anywhere from black to white. Hard to profile accruately eh? What about Latinos or Hindus that get mixed up in it even though they're not muslim?

So then, are white Muslims going to be profiled too? Could be problematic eh? see, racial profiling is a cop out - it's BAD police work, lazy and unprofessional.

My guess is that the people who don't think this is profiling have never been profiled before.

Jinn

It seems the post above yours riled you into irrational anger. I certainly agree with your proposed "solutions," but not because it was racial profiling. They were acting SUSPICIOUS no matter what race or religion they were. If you're acting SUSPICIOUS, expect to be talked to by security or police officers in the area. It's that simple. And if they pull the race/discrimination card afterwards, they're just being brats..

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jorgelito

No, not angry at all - just adding another perspective to the discussion.

I think part of the problem is clouding the issues. Another part of the problem is subjectivity. How were they suspicious? Congregating near an air duct? I do that everyday. In fact, (ironically), all the smokers at my old school would congregate by the air duct (underneath a sign that says do not smoke in this area).

For example: I think everyone on a cell phone is suspicious, - who knows what they are uo to right? IEDs are set off by cell phones (so this can be a little problematic I think if we get caught up in "suspicious activity").

But on the other hand, it was in a stadium (large public place) and an ex-president was present necessitating the need for a more astute security presence.

So I would agree in general with your contention about SUSPICIOUS. Like you said, being talked to is reasonable, that's good communication and makes sense. But what happened after I don't necessarily agree with. Based on the article, I really don't see the defense of the security people.

But gauging suspicious activity can be tricky too. For example, being black is enough to make one suspicious (in some instances and some areas). Any black man passing through Beverly Hills knows this.

Another problem is information. The article could be incomplete. According to the article, they were praying and the security guards said, come with us. Why didn't they just say what are you doing or this area is restricted? It really doesn't seem to add up to me. Were they carrying weapons or strange devices? They don't say what was suspicious.

The other issue is, why can't people accept the fact that racial profiling does happen and that this case could be an example of it? It may or may not be, but it definitely could be. By trying to understand these issues and discussing them, it can help us positively as a society (at least I believe so). We shouln't try and deny these tings but instead, face them head on and deal with it no matter how uncomfortable it may be.

I do think it's tricky - but given the information at hand, I would still say that it was racial profiling.

shakran

I'm not sure this was racial profiling because of the sequence of events. They entered the stadium together and were not harassed. They went to their seats together and were not harassed. Only when they decided to congregate under an air duct were they harassed. Were I a security guard, if I see ANY group of people congregating near something that could be used to deliver a bio/chem weapon, I'm going to start asking questions. I don't care what race/religion they are.

maleficent

Because this occurred in NJ, and involved the state police (and I don't think that the ACLU is involved... yet) NJ's state police got themselves into a heap of trouble and got a heap of national attention because of racial profiling (of young black men driving nice cars -- clearly they stole them :insert eyeroll here:

I would hope that the staties would be more 'sensitive' to profiling...

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Blackthorn

It sounds like these people were in a place where you don't normally find fans that are there to see a football game. That to me would inspire he first element of suspicion. The second element of suspicion would be if they appeared to be of arabic decent. It was racial profiling but so what. I don't think it there was a single Canadian terrorist on one of the 9/11 planes. The majority of them were from Saudi Arabia. Muslim extremists want to kill Americans. If there are people who fit that profile in an area of a full stadium where you don't normally find the typical fan then get over it and accept the scrutiny that comes with your behavior. I applaude the authorities for putting up the fencing to keep people out of what sounds like could be a sensitive area.

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kutulu

Bull fucking shit. It is not their fault that less than one out of every 1000 Muslims is a terrorist and they have no personal obligation to fix a problem that had nothing to do with. Have we asked Irish-Americans to apologize to the world because of the IRA? Do we tell Korean Americans to work on getting Kim Jong Il taken out of power? Is it the duty of an Italian person to work on keeping Italians out of the mob? It's such bullshit to expect Muslim Americans to feel responsible for what extremists they have never met have done.

Can cops pull over and harass random mexican-looking people because most illegal aliens are mexicans?
Can cops pull over upper middle class white men over 30 at random because the profile for DUIs tends to be upper middle class white men over 30?

Profiling is all right and good till it starts effecting your life.


Another thing, they went way beyond finding out what they were up to. They made them change seats, kept guards around them, and had security escort them off-premisis after the game. How's that for treating them like second class citizens?

martinguerre

i've read further reports that state the men were never searched.

if they thought they were dangerous enough to question, separate, and guard...

but they didn't have probable cause to search them?

come on...this is lame policework.

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SERPENT7

The only thing i think is weird here is that it shows how overly vigilant we as a society have become, and how much we are willing to tolerate. (Although the pres. thing kinda skews it a bit!)

Gilda

The question that determines whether this is racial profiling is this:

If we change the relevant variable, in this case ethnicity and sex, would they have been treated the same? If it had been a group of white and Asian women, say me, my sister, my wife, and a couple of her sisters, would we have been detained, questioned, moved, and guarded? Would a group of middle aged white guys?

I rather suspect the answer to the first is almost certainly no, and for the second group, very likely no. Let's not forget that the worst terrorist attack on the US prior to 9-11 was committed by a couple of white Christians.

Seems very likely to me that this was at least partially racial in nature.

Gilda

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Reese

As a white male I can think of a few times where I've been picked out of a crowd for "acting suspicious" when doing semi-normal things. I'm not saying the incident in this article wasn't racial profiling, but It's possible they would have reacted this way to any suspicious person no matter the race/religion. I think it's a good thing to be a little suspicious of everything including the security guards motives, but the outright accuse a muslim of being a terrorist or accuse every security guard of being racist is just wrong.

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shakran

Yes. You would have. The president was there. They do not screw around with securing the president. If you so much as breathe funny you will be very carefully checked out. If a group of five of you suddenly congregate under an air duct that could theoretically be used to dispense a biological agent that would kill everyone in the stadium, including the president, they will check you out using any means they feel is necessary.

Gilda

I still have to question this. The main air intake (Why would a football stadium need an air intake anyway? Don't they, like, get air through that big open area up above the seats and the field? Or is this a domed stadium?) hadn't been identified as a vulnerable spot until after this group of men were spotted near it. Why did it become a sensitive area then, when it wasn't considered so during the preliminary scouting for the trip? Could it be that it was the group of Muslum men that aroused suspicion, and their location used as justification after the fact?

They had a reasonable explanation for being there. If there's no evidence that they were going to do anything harmful, and none is presented here, why move them to new seats, guard them there, and escort them to their cars? If the air intake was the problem, and not that these men were Muslum, their going back to their seats would have ended any potential threat.

I'm still of the mind that had it been a group of young white/Asian women from my family, we might have been questioned, but the more extreme measures likely wouldn't have been taken in the absense of some reason to believe we were a threat.

Gilda

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maleficent

Well.... Giants Stadium is an open air stadium -- we don't need no stinkin' wimpy domes...

The concessions areas as well as the locker room, luxury boxes, and press areas are all inside... they'd need the air intake i'd imagine.

Anyone who's seen a game played at the meadowlands might tell you that the the air intake is what we like to call Home Field Advantage... The field of the stadium (over which Jimmy Hoffa is suppodely buried) has this really cool swirling wind thing gong on... the air intake might help that... It befuddles opposing quarterbacks often...

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Xazy

I would not call it profiling. There were a number of people who called, complained to security out of concern. And then there is the realism variable you get there, and it is someone who falls under the norm stats for a terrorist, you have complaints, you take them into custody first, secure the area, and then ask once safety is assured.

When the giants played the ravens in the superbowl, I being a raven fan (living in NY) was escorted from the bar by police with 2 minutes left. Not that I did not feel safe in the bar, but it was preventative measure for my own safety. For them to complain about being escorted after, where people who might be drunk, upset etc... where they can perhaps get into a fight, is just silly.

ObieX

One may consider this racial profiling, but that is kinda beside the point when it comes to this situation.

Picture it. You a security guard in a stadium. There are (former) presidents there. The vast majority of the crowds are either inside watching the game, or are on line for food/drink/bathroom. You stroll around and come across a bunch of guys kneeling on the ground near an air vent (most likely with their belongings).

Now, if I saw this i would think a few things:

1. WTF?

2. What is going on here?

3. I should check this out.

If you DIDN'T check it out, it would be a problem. The fact that it *WAS* checked out is a good thing.

If the questioned individuals think something happened that shouldn't have, they are sorely mistaken.

Edit: I live in northern NJ, and quite frankly we don't have a shortage of minorities in this area. People in northern NJ are very much used to seeing someone of another ethnicity living next door, working along side them, enjoying the same sporting events together, being friends/family with them. If you are a racist here you'll be so overwhelmed by the melting-pot that is NJ your head would explode.

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krwlz

Personally, I don't think it was racial profiling, they were suspicious, and were treated with respect.

But even if it was... If by racial profiling (and I'm not advocating anything really here, just a for instance) the men who played out their hand in the name of allah on 9-11 were singled out and detained, and the whole episode were avoided, would anyone bitch?

Can a single person argue that at the moment, those people in the world that are most displeased with us are of middle eastern origin or decent? (Again, in general). Can anyone argue that the only religion with noteable fanatics left in it would be the Muslims?

If racial profiling saves lives, go for it!

Now I realize that the Muslim religion does not advocate or support terrorism. And they have as much right to live hassle free as I do. But whens the last time you heard of a suicide bomber screaming Shiva?

The key here is respect. If by racial profiling attention is drawn to any specific group, I'm ok with that, but that does not give anyone the right to violate their basic human rights, or treat them with disrespect until more information is provided.

And lastly, if they need to pray five times a day... is there anything governing the when? A football game is a matter of a few hours, they could have saved everyone a lot of trouble had they prayer before, or after the game. Religion is (in my opinion) something personal anyway.

Now, on the flip side, I do have to say that if racial profiling prevents one act of terror, its worth it, but if it degenerates to the point where other groups are recieving less attention, or being ignored all together, we have an even bigger problem on our hands than before. Anyone near that vent, with former presidents around, should have been questioned.

jorgelito

But you can't really "racial profile" Muslims. You would have to search everyone. I have a few professors that look like John Walker Lindh. Should security detain them everytime they gather near the bathroom? You know, a majority of the Muslim students at my school are white - and anti-Bush. Should we have them followed? Everyone thinks my Hindu friend is a "terrorist" just because of the way he looks. That's ridiculous. And my roomate (the "Latino" one) occasionally gets mistaken for Pakistani/Hindu. People are ignorant and can't diffrentiate.

Just a couple of months ago, one of NY's Bravest, assaulted someone he racial-profiled - He attacked a Bangladeshi dude cause he thought he looked like Al-Qaida.

Sorry, that's unacceptable. If we resort to these type of tactics, then we indeed have lost.

NYC firefighter assaults immigrant
by Associated Press
12 Sep 2005

Monday, September 12, 2005;

NEW YORK (AP) -- Hours after many New York firefighters gathered to mark the fourth anniversary of the September 11 terrorist attacks, a firefighter was arrested for attacking an immigrant worker and telling him he looked "like he's al-Qaeda," police said.

Firefighter Edward Dailey was arrested Sunday afternoon on charges of criminal mischief and felony second-degree assault, Police Sgt. Kevin Farrell said. It had not yet been determined whether the charges would be upgraded to a hate crime, he said.

Dailey, 27, is accused of breaking a piece of Plexiglas off a curbside news stand and throwing it at a 51-year-old man who works there, Farrell said. Dailey had said the man, an immigrant from Bangladesh, looked "like he's al-Qaeda," Farrell said.

The victim, whose arm was cut in the alleged attack, was treated at a local hospital and later released, Farrell said.

A woman who answered the phone at Dailey's home declined to comment.

Dailey was the class valedictorian at his FDNY graduation ceremony last year.

Copyright 2005 The Associated Press

jorgelito

We have our own religious extremists - they have taken up arms and live in the hinterland of America convinced the UN will invade in blue helicopters. There have been a few stand-offs already with the feds. There are some hardcore Jewish extremists too that are terrorists - in fact, one just died recently in jail. The IRA was not Muslim if I remember correctly. I don't think Timothy McVeigh was Muslim - why don't we profile people like him who I believe are more of a threat?

What's wrong with prayer? I'm always praying myself (especially before exams). There are tons of people who pray in public - especially before meals. My dad does this, it used to bother me. But even at school - all those "crazy Christians pray before meals in the dining halls. Suspicious? What if it was Muslims praying? Suspicious? And how about the football teams that pray befor the game? That's suspicious. Security better go check it out. And what if one of the players is Muslim? should we remove him cause Bush is in the crowd? Like say. Ahman Green - Ahman is Muslim right?

Shaq is Muslim - Is that what Muslims look like? - maybe we should put 24 hr surveillance on him. Hedo Turkoglu is also Muslim. Now, do those two look anything alike? How do you even begin to racial profile that? Come to think of it, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar sounds Muslim - better interrogate him. Paula Adbul too. And Mohammed Ali. Yep, cause racial profiling makes sense.

jorgelito

I think the security slipped up for sure. They should have had the area cordoned off if it was "off-limits". The problem is, the article doesn't really give us enough info. It sound like they messed up and tried to rememdy by resorting to a little racial profiling.

I think asking the guys what they were doing and telling them to leave the area is fine, makes sense. Where I disagree with the rest of the posters is what transpires afterwards. This is normal IMO and expected. NO problem there.

Why did they have to be removed from their original seats and then be "supervised"? Would that happen to a group of 5 white guys (who could possibly be Muslim too, you can't tell by looking)? I don't know, but I would guess, probably not. For me at least, that is the problem. Admittedly, what makes this difficult is the lack of info on what really happened. THe article doesn't say what the guys did to warrant having their seats changed. That's kind of weird. If they were suspicious, why not take them into custody, why let them stay if they were a "threat"? If they were a threat, you need to take them away right?

Oh yeah, I was curious, in the end, did they get better seats?

canuckguy

I don't think just because someone can't tell differences between races makes them ignorant. Sometimes people make honest mistakes. Not everyone is up on what facial features or other features that seperate people. If you look at me, you would not be able to tell if I was irish or german. Nor would I hold it against you for some simple mistake. Not everyone has bad intentions and just because someone thinks your friend is pakistani verus latino does not make them a racist.

krwlz

My point is that I think racial profiling and discrimination are two differant things. If their quality of life is significantly reduced by the racial profiling, then I think I would refer to that as discrimination. But being aware of differant ethnicities, and conducting a polite investigation of what *could* have been a disasterous situation, I can not find fault with. Starting a fight, tossing them out of the game, arresting them, that would all be unacceptable.

Politing and discreetly asking them what their business there was, and moving them to (probably) similar seating elsewhere, and offering an escort... How can any of that really be offensive? It was for the most part I have to assume determined by the gaurds that they were *probably* not a threat, but how could they know? I think they reacted in the most nuetral way they could, while still displacing any immediate, and potential threat.

It is unfortunate that we live in a world where terror is something we have to deal with. But live in this world we do, and as such we have to play by the current rules.

Hey, it could have been worse. Few hundred years ago (say during the crusades) the world was a much less hospitable place. Five muslims in Britian would have been chopped to bits before a single question was asked.

jorgelito

I should have clarified:
1. When people make that association, it is always negative: i.e. - "you fuckin' terrorist Pakistani", or "Fuck you Osama (my roomate would get this regularly -maybe an LA thing).

2. The point is, since you can't tell, it isn't wise to make judgements based on that. That is why profiling doesn't make sense - because you can't tell.

3. Assumptions - people probably don't assume/care whether or not you are German or Irish because they probably assume you're American, or white. But people of color tend to be perceived as such first, before anything else. Those 5 (according to the article) were full-blooded Americans. But they were not seen as such. That is the problem.

Zyr

I think investigating what they were doing wouldn't have been a problem, they would have done the same with anyone, but I can't help but wonder if "...10 security officers and three state troopers...", as well as the seat changes and constant guarding, would have been deemed nessacery, had they not been muslim.

Oh, and just a note; those that think muslims need to "...stop blowing shit up all over the world...", maybe you should stop pissing off (i.e. invading) people that have no other way to fight back. Terrorism is horrible, and kills innocent people, but so does war.
(Before someone says it, yes, 9/11 happend before the invasion, but I'm just trying to say america isn't so innocent. Would you like to be held accountable for things that soldiers did?)

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krwlz

Just so my view points arnt misconstrued, I don't blame the Muslims. The Muslims don't want the suicidal fanatics in their order. They are just as much advocating peace as anyone else. But at the moment, there the majority of the attacks being made around the world have been made in the Muslims name. Not fair, certainly not right, but true.

Zyr

Fair enough, you may not blame them, but some do, and I'm kinda sick of it. I just get a bit pissed off when I see comments like Cimarron29414's.

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shakran

The area wasn't off limits unless you happened to be a group of five guys kneeling near it. If these guys had just walked by, probably nothing would have happened. If they'd walked by, and one had stopped to tie his shoes, probably nothing would have happened. But they walked straight to the air duct, then kneeled down (are they praying, or getting something out of their bag?) as a group. Yeah, if I were the security guard, I don't care what they look like. They could all look like Harrison Ford and I'm still gonna snag 'em, search 'em, and question 'em.

It's not racial profiling if you'd do it no matter what the race.