Bush wants marshal law for bird flu. - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

gh0ti · 10-06-2005, 06:49 PM

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. "

-- Benjamin Franklin

It truly amazes me how people forget the words of our founders.

Ustwo · 10-06-2005, 08:45 PM

There comes a time to declare a thread dead....

When I, a conservative, Republican, atheist, heterosexual and martinguerre, a liberal, democrat, christian, homosexual, both agree, there can be no more debate and the case is closed.

Nothing to see here, move on.

yournamehere · 10-06-2005, 09:42 PM

As usual, Bush hasn't thought this through. If he truly wants to have the military protect us, wouldn't he have to bring them home first?

Or are we just going to fight the virus in Iraq, so we don't have to fight it here?

Charlatan · 10-07-2005, 05:17 AM

I think some of you missed what Thorny said about the Health Deparment... the authority they will have in this sort of crisis is pretty vast.

If the military is called in it will most likely be them that does the calling... If they have to impose a quarantine on a city (or cities) just how do you suppose that's going to happen?

hunnychile · 10-07-2005, 07:02 PM

It's all become too Kurt Vonnegut for me! /She bails out..../

Elphaba · 10-08-2005, 03:23 PM

The pandemic flu plan has been leaked to the press and was due for final approval later this month, according to the following article. Pressure to complete the plan, following the lack of organization responding to Katrina, appears to have pushed it forward.

But guess what? Once again, we do not know who will be in charge, and military intervention isn't discussed at all. I wonder if Bush's suggestion of deploying the military was a trial balloon to guage public opinion.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/08/politics/08flu.html

Quote:

Bush Plan Shows US is Not Ready for Deadly Flu
By Gardiner Harris
The New York Times

Friday 07 October 2005

Washington - A plan developed by the Bush administration to deal with any possible outbreak of pandemic flu shows that the United States is woefully unprepared for what could become the worst disaster in the nation's history.

A draft of the final plan, which has been years in the making and is expected to be released later this month, says that a large outbreak that began in Asia was likely, because of modern travel patterns, to reach the United States within "a few months or even weeks."

If such an outbreak occurred, hospitals would become overwhelmed; riots would engulf vaccination clinics; and even power and food would be in short supply, according to the plan, which was obtained by The New York Times.

The 381-page plan calls for quarantine and travel restrictions but concedes that such measures "are unlikely to delay introduction of pandemic disease into the US by more than a month or two."

The plan's 10 supplements suggest specific ways that local and state governments should prepare now for an eventual pandemic by, for instance, drafting legal documents that would justify quarantines. Written by health officials, the plan does yet address responses by the military or other governmental departments.

The plan outlines a worst-case scenario in which more than 1.9 million Americans would die and 8.5 million would be hospitalized with costs exceeding $450 billion.

It also calls for a domestic vaccine production capacity of 600 million doses within six months, more than 10 times the present capacity.

On Friday, President Bush asked the leaders of the nation's top six vaccine producers to the White House to cajole them into increasing their domestic vaccine capacity, and the flu plan demonstrates just how monumental a task these companies have before them.

In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, the Bush administration's efforts to plan for a possible pandemic flu have become controversial, with many Democrats in Congress charging that the administration has not done enough. Many have pointed to the lengthy writing process of the flu plan as evidence of this.

But while the administration's flu plan, officially called the Pandemic Influenza Strategic Plan, closely outlines how the Health and Human Services Department may react during a pandemic, it skirts many essential decisions, like how the military may be deployed.

"The real shortcoming of the plan is that it doesn't say who's in charge," said a top health official who provided the plan to The Times. "We don't want to have a FEMA-like response, where it's not clear who's running what."

Still, the official, who asked for anonymity because the plan is not supposed to be distributed, called the plan a "major milestone" that was "very comprehensive" and sorely needed.

The draft provided to The Times is dated Sept. 30, and is stamped "for internal H.H.S. use only." The plan asks government officials to clear it by Oct. 6.

Christina Pearson, a spokeswoman for Health and Human Services Secretary Michael O. Leavitt, responded, "We recognize that the H.H.S. plan will be a foundation for a government wide plan, and that process has already begun."

Ms. Pearson said that Mr. Leavitt has already had one-on-one meetings with other cabinet secretaries to begin the coordination process across the federal government. But she emphasized that the plan given to The Times was a draft and had not been finalized.

Mr. Leavitt is leaving Saturday for a 10-day trip to at least four Asian nations, where he will meet with health and agriculture officials to discuss planning for a pandemic flu. He said at a briefing Friday that the administration's flu plan would be officially released soon. He was not aware at the briefing that The Times had a copy of the plan. And he emphasized that the chances that the virus now killing birds in Asia would become a human pandemic were unknown but probably low. A pandemic is global epidemic of disease.

"It may be a while longer, but pandemic will likely occur in the future," he said.

And he said that flu planning would soon become a national exercise.

"It will require school districts to have a plan on how they will deal with school opening and closing," he said. "It will require the mayor to have a plan on whether or not they're going to ask the theaters not to have a movie."

"Over the next couple of months you will see a great deal of activity asking metropolitan areas, 'Are you ready?' If not, here is what must be done," he said.

A key point of contention if an epidemic strikes is who will get vaccines first. The administration's plan suggests a triage distribution for these essential medicines. Groups like the military; National Guard and other national security groups were left out.

Beyond the military, however, the first in line for essential medicines are workers in plants making the vaccines and drugs as well as medical personnel working directly with those sickened by the disease. Next are the elderly and severely ill. Then come pregnant women, transplant and AIDS patients, and parents of infants. Finally, the police, firefighters and government leaders are next.

The plan also calls for a national stockpile of 133 million courses of antiviral treatment. Presently the administration has bought 4.3 million.

The plan details the responsibilities of top health officials in each phase of a spreading pandemic, starting with planning and surveillance efforts and ending with coordination with the Department of Defense.

Much of the plan is a dry recitation of the science and basic bureaucratic steps that must be followed as a virus races around the globe. But the plan has the feel of a television move-of-the-week when it describes a possible pandemic situation that begins, "In April of the current year, an outbreak of severe respiratory illness is identified in a small village."

"Twenty patients have required hospitalization at the local provincial hospital, five of whom have died from pneumonia and respiratory failure," the plan states.

The flu spreads and begins to make headlines around the world. Top health officials swing into action and isolate the new viral strain in laboratories. "Social unrest occurs," the plan states.

Elphaba · 10-08-2005, 04:03 PM

Quote:

A key point of contention if an epidemic strikes is who will get vaccines first. The administration's plan suggests a triage distribution for these essential medicines. Groups like the military; National Guard and other national security groups were left out.

Beyond the military, however, the first in line for essential medicines are workers in plants making the vaccines and drugs as well as medical personnel working directly with those sickened by the disease. Next are the elderly and severely ill. Then come pregnant women, transplant and AIDS patients, and parents of infants. Finally, the police, firefighters and government leaders are next.

The plan also calls for a national stockpile of 133 million courses of antiviral treatment. Presently the administration has bought 4.3 million.

This part of the article tells me that I need not bother to stand in line for a shot. I suspect that might be true for the majority of the members of this forum. Since I haven't bothered to prepare for another earthquake, maybe it's time I get serious and prepare for some major self-reliance.

pan6467 · 10-08-2005, 04:31 PM

It seems like while Bush was letting medical costs skyrocket he forgot to ask the pharmaceutical companies to do some serious research in some of these diseases that may head our way.

I guess Merck and Pfizer and all those other companies would rather make the next anti-toenail fungal or keep rehashing benzodiazepines, putting a new name on them and sell them as anti depressants.

Truly there must be no money in trying to find cures or vaccines from diseases that may become plagues.

Elphaba · 10-08-2005, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

It seems like while Bush was letting medical costs skyrocket he forgot to ask the pharmaceutical companies to do some serious research in some of these diseases that may head our way.

I guess Merck and Pfizer and all those other companies would rather make the next anti-toenail fungal or keep rehashing benzodiazepines, putting a new name on them and sell them as anti depressants.

Truly there must be no money in trying to find cures or vaccines from diseases that may become plagues.

From what I have read recently, there is no money to be made with flu vaccines unless the government decides to subsidize the yearly losses. It's all about money, ya know?

pan6467 · 10-08-2005, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

From what I have read recently, there is no money to be made with flu vaccines unless the government decides to subsidize the yearly losses. It's all about money, ya know?

And that's why we're bound to have little buggies keep coming in. Sad we have people who refuse a subsidized health care, if we had maybe we'd have these great pharmaceutical companies actually develop medicines to fight these flus and other nasties.

Course, there's money to be made in keeping people sick also, what with hospitals and drugs and doctors and all.

Elphaba · 10-10-2005, 12:50 PM

I just read that Turkey and Romania are destroying birds because the virus has been detected in both countries.

Dungeon_Shade · 10-11-2005, 06:02 PM

You know, I am a republican, but I must admit, Bush seems off his rocker lately. I'm really wishing he didn't get elected now! Scaring the shit out of me.

I read about him claiming that God told him to kill the muslims... Really freaky.

hunnychile · 10-13-2005, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dungeon_Shade

You know, I am a republican, but I must admit, Bush seems off his rocker lately. I'm really wishing he didn't get elected now! Scaring the shit out of me.

I read about him claiming that God told him to kill the muslims... Really freaky.

And just think, if Bush CAN'T find fast help for all the victims of a major hurricane - what happens when the Avian flu lands on US soil? There is only enough medicine available here to help treat (not cure) 2% of our entire population.

Who'll be first in line to actually get those limited life-saving meds?

Elphaba · 10-13-2005, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunnychile

And just think, if Bush CAN'T find fast help for all the victims of a major hurricane - what happens when the Avian flu lands on US soil? There is only enough medicine available here to help treat (not cure) 2% of our entire population.

Who'll be first in line to actually get those limited life-saving meds?

Quote:

Quote:
A key point of contention if an epidemic strikes is who will get vaccines first. The administration's plan suggests a triage distribution for these essential medicines. Groups like the military; National Guard and other national security groups were left out.

Beyond the military, however, the first in line for essential medicines are workers in plants making the vaccines and drugs as well as medical personnel working directly with those sickened by the disease. Next are the elderly and severely ill. Then come pregnant women, transplant and AIDS patients, and parents of infants. Finally, the police, firefighters and government leaders are next.

The plan also calls for a national stockpile of 133 million courses of antiviral treatment. Presently the administration has bought 4.3 million.

The report already answers that question, as I posted before. It ain't you and me, babe, or most of the folks here at TFP.

jwoody · 10-14-2005, 01:20 AM

WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE
some day.

I found out this morning that bird-flu can't pass from human to human, so the only people at risk are those in close contact with live poultry.

You don't see that in the headlines.

*Special prize for anyone who can tell me what type of bird they are killing in Turkey.

highthief · 10-14-2005, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwoody

WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE
some day.

I found out this morning that bird-flu can't pass from human to human, so the only people at risk are those in close contact with live poultry.

You don't see that in the headlines.

*Special prize for anyone who can tell me what type of bird they are killing in Turkey.

Well, the point being that the flu constantly mutates year to year. The concern is that one of those mutations will enable human to human aerisol transmission.

And then we are in trouble.

jwoody · 10-14-2005, 02:01 AM

The first hit on google news makes my point perfectly.

I'm right here, in Europe, and I can give you an on the spot, eyewitness account that panic most definitely has not broken out.

It's just another day.

We're about as likely to catch bird-flu as we were the millenium bug.

Quote:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...LU14/TPHealth/

A deadly virus is spreading westward and it seems little can stop its advance

LONDON -- Panic has broken out across Europe as a potential flu outbreak has reached the edge of the Western world....

aKula · 10-14-2005, 03:19 AM

Well panic hasn't and I doubt it will break out. Just because the virus cannot pass from person to person doesn't mean we shouldn't be concerned and preparing for the possibility of such a mutation occuring. The spanish flu that killed millions after the first world war also came from birds.

martinguerre · 10-14-2005, 01:17 PM

jwoody...several strains of the flu have gone from avian to human transmission to human to human transmission.

this is a known pattern in the adaptation of influenza virii.

it's not a panic right now thing, but nor is it a sit back and relax kind of deal.

Neverfate · 10-14-2005, 09:17 PM

Has anyone here read 'The Stand'? Putting the military in charge in case of a pandemic would prolly happen regardless of public opinion, but just handing ourselves over to them makes it easy to control the media and transportation and free will, etc. Not to sound too conservative, but marshall law (or a reasonable facsimile of it) should not be considered at all until the time comes when it may be necessary.

-Captain Trips is coming back to haunt me, thanks Stephen King.

Neverfate · 10-14-2005, 09:26 PM

[QUOTE=jwoody]WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE
some day.

This idea has always been easily accepted by stodgy philosophers since the evolution of coherant thought. However, I am personally VERY attatched to my life and have no desire for it to end prematurely. I believe the vast majority of living creatures share this instinct. It is simple to say, "Who cares? We're all going to die in a matter of time anyway so why all of the hullaballoo, HARRUMPH!" (Pardon the exaggeration) Consider this, never before in the history of the planet has human life been held in such high value. Also, we have never before had the means to maintain this high value. I don't think the 'avian flu' is a thing to panic about, or to even fear to a greater degree, but if we can kill it before it spreads we should. Even if it's just to save the poultry. Who knows what we could learn from the endeavor?

-Sorry if I went off topic too much.

tangledweb · 10-15-2005, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

It seems like while Bush was letting medical costs skyrocket...

Man, that Bush is a busy guy!! Between fixing elections, causing all the hurricanes (with his envoronmental policies) and taking over other countries, he still has time to go and 'let' all those medical costs skyrocket'. Wouldn't you like to see Bush's Daily Planner?? I wonder what number "Take Over the World" is? Would it be #1, or would it be something he needed to build up to after a quick afternoon nap?

I didn't read all the posts completely so I apologize if this has already been retracted, but that just makes no sense. Bush doesn't have anything to do with the costs of medical care or pretty much anything else for that matter. I know that it's easy to just pin the blame for everything on the most convenient person but lets keep some reality here.

10-06-2005, 06:49 PM	#41 (permalink)
gh0ti Crazy	"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. " -- Benjamin Franklin It truly amazes me how people forget the words of our founders. __________________ I ain't often right but I've never been wrong It seldom turns out the way it does in the song Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right

10-06-2005, 08:45 PM	#42 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	There comes a time to declare a thread dead.... When I, a conservative, Republican, atheist, heterosexual and martinguerre, a liberal, democrat, christian, homosexual, both agree, there can be no more debate and the case is closed. Nothing to see here, move on. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

10-06-2005, 09:42 PM	#43 (permalink)
yournamehere Invisible Location: tentative, at best	As usual, Bush hasn't thought this through. If he truly wants to have the military protect us, wouldn't he have to bring them home first? Or are we just going to fight the virus in Iraq, so we don't have to fight it here? __________________ If you want to avoid 95% of internet spelling errors: "If your ridiculous pants are too loose, you're definitely going to lose them. Tell your two loser friends over there that they're going to lose theirs, too." It won't hurt your fashion sense, either.

10-07-2005, 05:17 AM	#44 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I think some of you missed what Thorny said about the Health Deparment... the authority they will have in this sort of crisis is pretty vast. If the military is called in it will most likely be them that does the calling... If they have to impose a quarantine on a city (or cities) just how do you suppose that's going to happen? __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

10-07-2005, 07:02 PM	#45 (permalink)
hunnychile Alien Anthropologist Location: Between Boredom and Nirvana	It's all become too Kurt Vonnegut for me! /She bails out..../ __________________ "I need compassion, understanding and chocolate." - NJB

10-08-2005, 04:31 PM	#48 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	It seems like while Bush was letting medical costs skyrocket he forgot to ask the pharmaceutical companies to do some serious research in some of these diseases that may head our way. I guess Merck and Pfizer and all those other companies would rather make the next anti-toenail fungal or keep rehashing benzodiazepines, putting a new name on them and sell them as anti depressants. Truly there must be no money in trying to find cures or vaccines from diseases that may become plagues. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

10-10-2005, 12:50 PM	#51 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	I just read that Turkey and Romania are destroying birds because the virus has been detected in both countries.

10-11-2005, 06:02 PM	#52 (permalink)
Dungeon_Shade Crazy Location: Grand Junction, CO	You know, I am a republican, but I must admit, Bush seems off his rocker lately. I'm really wishing he didn't get elected now! Scaring the shit out of me. I read about him claiming that God told him to kill the muslims... Really freaky. __________________ "If you can hear this whispering you are dying."- Pink Floyd

10-14-2005, 01:20 AM	#55 (permalink)
jwoody Shackle Me Not Location: Newcastle - England.	WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE some day. I found out this morning that bird-flu can't pass from human to human, so the only people at risk are those in close contact with live poultry. You don't see that in the headlines. *Special prize for anyone who can tell me what type of bird they are killing in Turkey. __________________ .

10-14-2005, 03:19 AM	#58 (permalink)
aKula Psycho	Well panic hasn't and I doubt it will break out. Just because the virus cannot pass from person to person doesn't mean we shouldn't be concerned and preparing for the possibility of such a mutation occuring. The spanish flu that killed millions after the first world war also came from birds.

10-14-2005, 01:17 PM	#59 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	jwoody...several strains of the flu have gone from avian to human transmission to human to human transmission. this is a known pattern in the adaptation of influenza virii. it's not a panic right now thing, but nor is it a sit back and relax kind of deal. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

10-14-2005, 09:17 PM	#60 (permalink)
Neverfate Upright Location: Montgomery, Alabama	Has anyone here read 'The Stand'? Putting the military in charge in case of a pandemic would prolly happen regardless of public opinion, but just handing ourselves over to them makes it easy to control the media and transportation and free will, etc. Not to sound too conservative, but marshall law (or a reasonable facsimile of it) should not be considered at all until the time comes when it may be necessary. -Captain Trips is coming back to haunt me, thanks Stephen King.

10-14-2005, 09:26 PM	#61 (permalink)
Neverfate Upright Location: Montgomery, Alabama	[QUOTE=jwoody]WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE some day. This idea has always been easily accepted by stodgy philosophers since the evolution of coherant thought. However, I am personally VERY attatched to my life and have no desire for it to end prematurely. I believe the vast majority of living creatures share this instinct. It is simple to say, "Who cares? We're all going to die in a matter of time anyway so why all of the hullaballoo, HARRUMPH!" (Pardon the exaggeration) Consider this, never before in the history of the planet has human life been held in such high value. Also, we have never before had the means to maintain this high value. I don't think the 'avian flu' is a thing to panic about, or to even fear to a greater degree, but if we can kill it before it spreads we should. Even if it's just to save the poultry. Who knows what we could learn from the endeavor? -Sorry if I went off topic too much.