Bush wants marshal law for bird flu. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Slyboots · 10-05-2005, 12:26 PM

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Quote:

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A call by President George W. Bush for Congress to give him the power to use the military in law enforcement roles in the event of a bird flu pandemic has been criticized as akin to introducing martial law.

Bush said aggressive action would be needed to prevent a potentially disastrous U.S. outbreak of the disease that is sweeping through Asian poultry and which experts fear could mutate to pass between humans.

Such a deadly event would raise difficult questions, such as how a quarantine might be enforced, the president said.

"I'm concerned about what an avian flu outbreak could mean for the United States and the world," he told reporters during a Rose Garden news conference on Tuesday.

"One option is the use of a military that's able to plan and move," he said. "So that's why I put it on the table. I think it's an important debate for Congress to have."

The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 bans the military from participating in police-type activity on U.S. soil.

But Dr. Irwin Redlener, associate dean of Columbia University's Mailman School of Public Health and director of its National Center for Disaster Preparedness, told The Associated Press the president's suggestion was dangerous.

Giving the military a law enforcement role would be an "extraordinarily Draconian measure" that would be unnecessary if the nation had built the capability for rapid vaccine production, ensured a large supply of anti-virals like Tamiflu and not allowed the degradation of the public health system.

"The translation of this is martial law in the United States," Redlener said.

And Gene Healy, a senior editor at the conservative Cato Institute, said Bush would risk undermining "a fundamental principle of American law" by tinkering with the act, which does not hinder the military's ability to respond to a crisis.

"What it does is set a high bar for the use of federal troops in a policing role," he wrote in a commentary on the group's Web site. "That reflects America's traditional distrust of using standing armies to enforce order at home, a distrust that's well-justified."

Healy said soldiers are not trained as police officers, and putting them in a civilian law enforcement role "can result in serious collateral damage to American life and liberty."

People who catch the worst strain of avian flu can die of viral pneumonia and acute respiratory distress, according to mayoclinic.com.

The disease has killed tens of millions of birds in Asia.

Last week, the U.N.'s health agency, the World Health Organization, sought to ease fears that the disease could kill as many as 150 million people worldwide.

"We're not going to know how lethal the next pandemic is going to be until the pandemic begins," WHO influenza spokesman Dick Thompson said, according to The Associated Press.

The consequences of an outbreak in the United States need to be addressed before catastrophe strikes, Bush said.

The president said he saw things differently than he did as governor of Texas. "I didn't want the president telling me how to be the commander in chief of the Texas Guard," he said.

"But Congress needs to take a look at circumstances that may need to vest the capacity of the president to move beyond that debate. And one such catastrophe or one such challenge could be an avian flu outbreak."

Should avian flu mutate and gain the ability to spread easily from human to human, world leaders and scientists would need rapid access to accurate information to be able to stem its spread, he said.

"We need to know, on a real-time basis, the facts, so the world's scientific community could analyze the facts," he said.

Bush said he had spoken to Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, about work towards a vaccine, but that means of prevention remained a distant hope.

"I take this issue very seriously," Bush said. "I'm not predicting an outbreak, but just suggesting to you we ought to be thinking about it, and we are."

Absent an effective vaccine, public health officials likely would try to stem the disease's spread by isolating people who had been exposed to it. Such a move could require the military, he said.

"I think the president ought to have all options on the table," Bush said, then corrected himself, "all assets on the table -- to be able to deal with something this significant."
Katrina lessons

Bush began discussing the possibility of changing the law banning the military from participating in police-type activity last month, in the aftermath of the government's sluggish response to civil unrest following Hurricane Katrina.

"I want there to be a robust discussion about the best way for the federal government, in certain extreme circumstances, to be able to rally assets for the good of the people," he told reporters September 26.

Last month, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Bush "wants to make sure that we learn the lessons from Hurricane Katrina," including the use of the military in "a severe, catastrophic-type event."

"The Department of Defense would assume the responsibility for the situation, and come in with an overwhelming amount of resources and assets, to help stabilize the situation," McClellan said.

The World Health Organization has reported 116 cases of avian flu in humans, all of them in Asia. More than half of them have been fatal, it said.

On Thursday, the Senate added $4 billion to a Pentagon spending bill to head off the threat of an outbreak of avian flu among humans. The bulk of the money -- $3 billion -- would be used to stockpile Tamiflu, an antiviral drug that has proved effective against the H5N1 virus -- the strain blamed for six deaths in Indonesia last week.

U.S. health agencies have about 2 million doses of Tamiflu, enough to treat about 1 percent of the population. The money added by the Senate would build that stockpile to cover about 50 percent of the population.

CNN's Deirdre Walsh contributed to this report.

Copyright 2005 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Associated Press contributed to this report.

Charlatan · 10-05-2005, 12:51 PM

If there was a major outbreak... I think declaring martial law will be the least of your worries.

fightnight · 10-05-2005, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

If there was a major outbreak... I think declaring martial law will be the least of your worries.

Last time there was a major outbreak 550,000 Americans died and between 20 and 50 million worldwide died. I'm going to go wich Charlatan here.

stevo · 10-05-2005, 12:55 PM

Thanks for the article. I read it on google news earlier. Thanks for your opinion...oh you don't have one. Nevermind.

rsl12 · 10-05-2005, 12:55 PM

I agree. This particular flu is not dissimilar to the one discussed here that killed 25-50 million people over less than 2 years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Flu

Charlatan · 10-05-2005, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

Thanks for the article. I read it on google news earlier. Thanks for your opinion...oh you don't have one. Nevermind.

Don't be so hard on the Rookie... he might be posting it because he, like you, supports Bush.

Slyboots... it is generally bad form to post an article and then offer no comment, question, etc. It is a quick way to get a Mod to lock your thread.

Cynthetiq · 10-05-2005, 04:24 PM

and yes.. a good way to get a mod to lock it and say,"thank you come again"

onus on the OP to give their opinion and start the discussion, not just post a link and copy the text and run away.

I'll give you some time to add your thoughts.

having been to Manila recently and watching unfiltered news (meaning not American CNN or FOX) and now in India its amazing to see and hear how much effort is going on here for containment.

When we walked from one gate to the next in Hong Kong, there was a thermal camera monitoring all the passengers walking down the hallway. Anyone remotely not at 98.7 (or whatever it is in Celsius) is pulled off to the side and quarantined for a spell until they find out if they are positive for the Bird flu.

Carno · 10-05-2005, 05:36 PM

Too dangerous. I don't want the military doing anything other than what it's supposed to do: fight wars.

That Bush wants to change the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 makes me very nervous.

tecoyah · 10-05-2005, 06:22 PM

I believe we have a center for disease control, Fema, Nat'l guard, and a quite a few other agencys capable of taking on domestic issues such as this. If indeed these entities still exist in a couple years.

pan6467 · 10-05-2005, 06:30 PM

Unless you have 1000's upon 1000's dying in the streets and a plague like atmosphere the government has no right whatsoever to lay down Martial Law.

This is an excuse to lay it down, and there are so many factors that would need to be made public before I would ever consider supporting it.

- What are the criteria that have to be met in order for it to be called?
- Is it just infected areas or would the whole nation be under Martial Law?
- How long would it last?
- What would the "Martial Law" entail?

Doesn't surprise me Bush would do this, it's power baby all about the power, when I see things like this I truly worry about '08 and '09 and him leaving office. This type of action makes me think he has no intentions of it and is setting the groundwork for declaring an emergency of some type and staying in office.

I am on the frontlines, as many addicts are not exactly the healthiest, cleanest or disease free people, so I see a lot of communicable diseases come through.

Declaring Martial Law what would that do? I mean would the gov't prevent us from shopping or to go anywhere but they would still have to work but where if noone is allowed to shop?

Sounds to me like we are taking the easy way out, what we should be doing is working on a cure or vaccine and getting it knocked out like other diseases in our past.

Instead it seems our pharmaceutical companies are more worried about finding cures for toenail fungus and other inane diseases.

Fuck Martial Law..... find the cure or vaccine ..... do what our ancestors did, fight back and live life fearlessly. Sounds cold but we all have to die and Martial Law over this won't contain it if it truly becomes a massive epidemic/pandemic.

guthmund · 10-05-2005, 06:46 PM

I certainly agree with the majority...

There are plenty of other, certainly more qualified, folks who can handle this. Leave the military out of it.

I have to say, I was listening to snippets of a speech the President gave the other day on the radio and...well, this whole bird flu thing just seemed to come out of nowhere. The reconstruction efforts are underway on the Gulf coast, we're doing fine in Iraq, Judge Roberts is now Justice Roberts and have you met the new nomination? Oh by the way.... I think we should declare martial law because of....bird flu?

It just struck me as...odd.

Ustwo · 10-05-2005, 07:40 PM

Remember just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they aren't all out to get you.

Lets think for a moment here. Lets say we have a major deadly outbreak in a fine city like Detroit. We have people dying by the score, and whats the first thing people are going to want to do? They are going to want to get the hell out of the city, and in so doing may spread it across the country.

If you rely on the states to quarantine it might work out just fine, or the state could be run like Louisiana.

I think it’s a good idea, I’d rather not see a repeat of 1918 thanks.

Carno · 10-05-2005, 08:07 PM

No fuckin way. I'd rather catch a disease than have the chance that some fuckin wacked out loonie will try to use the military to take over the country or something.

I harbor a deep mistrust for all politicians and Presidents. They're all fucking dirtbags, every single last one of them. And I certainly don't want to make it easier for one of them to go all Julius Caesar on us and cross the Rubicon with the military. Fuck that.

If that ever happened, I'd be the first one to attempt an assassination.

Ustwo · 10-05-2005, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carn

No fuckin way. I'd rather catch a disease than have the chance that some fuckin wacked out loonie will try to use the military to take over the country or something.

I harbor a deep mistrust for all politicians and Presidents. They're all fucking dirtbags, every single last one of them. And I certainly don't want to make it easier for one of them to go all Julius Caesar on us and cross the Rubicon with the military. Fuck that.

If that ever happened, I'd be the first one to attempt an assassination.

If a president really wants to try this, there are a lot of easier ways to set it up than this.

One of the things I always find amusing with the 'Bush is going to take over the country' people is that if he had that in mind, he would also been of a mind to plant WMD's in Iraq. The deceit and malice just isn't there.

If a president wanted to take over the US he couldn't really do it alone, he would need a merry band of loyal followers to do his bidding. If I was such a president, do you think I'd use a pandemic outbreak of a disease? My minions, would put a small nuke in a US city, no one would care when I declared marshal law after that, and I'd go from there.

martinguerre · 10-05-2005, 10:18 PM

while i'm not exactly a fan of martial law, plagues, republicans, or chickens:

i think it's important to recall that the military is not a completly blind institution. while significantly more conservative on average than a randdom sampling of americans, they are not completely divorced from civilian concerns. Many of them were at one time, have family that currently are, or plan on being in the future just that, civilians.

While i think it's important to discuss the militarization of police efforts, and some of the problems that can create...i think one outcome we can safely take off the table is that a president could simply order the hostile take over of the nation with a completly complient military to do his or her bidding.

skier · 10-05-2005, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I
One of the things I always find amusing with the 'Bush is going to take over the country' people is that if he had that in mind, he would also been of a mind to plant WMD's in Iraq. The deceit and malice just isn't there.

There could be lots of reasons he didn't plant WMD's in Iraq- like fear of getting caught, or previous arrangements made to gain power, like a "pre-emptive" state of martial law in preparation of bird flu. It's the public's responsibility to guard against the possibility that the government may gain overwhelming power in a series of small steps pushing the boundaries of "acceptable risk".

ChistledStone · 10-05-2005, 11:18 PM

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/...191820898.html - Sorry about no quote, but an Australian article about the effects.

Not being an American, I'd give Bush martial law powers. I'd say that I'd rather have the immensely small chance that a dumbass like Bush take power to save my family.

Although if he did take total power, it'd be ironic if he got birdflu and died.

Worthy of a comedy sketch.

pan6467 · 10-05-2005, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinguerre

while i'm not exactly a fan of martial law, plagues, republicans, or chickens:

i think it's important to recall that the military is not a completly blind institution. while significantly more conservative on average than a randdom sampling of americans, they are not completely divorced from civilian concerns. Many of them were at one time, have family that currently are, or plan on being in the future just that, civilians.

While i think it's important to discuss the militarization of police efforts, and some of the problems that can create...i think one outcome we can safely take off the table is that a president could simply order the hostile take over of the nation with a completly complient military to do his or her bidding.

It's not as difficult as you believe, history has shown us it is quite easy.... Hitler, Stalin, Chairman Mao, Idi Amin, Castro and so on and so on and so on.

Just tell the military in this case that area is contaminated do not let anyone out alive.

As for this example of Detroit getting it so we quarantine the city...... so by the time we have confirmed cases don't you think contaminated people will have already left and gone to other parts of the country and infected others, who have moved on and infected others and so on and so forth?

Or is the plan to put Martial Law down BEFORE any outbreak occurs?????

Amazes me how many people are willing to give up their rights and those of everyone else's for the false and foolish promises of safety and well being in cases like these.

PredeconInferno · 10-05-2005, 11:39 PM

I think there are better ways to quarantine an area than declaring martial law.

When all is said and done, wouldn't that mean actually HELPING the spread of such a virus?

martinguerre · 10-06-2005, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

It's not as difficult as you believe, history has shown us it is quite easy.... Hitler, Stalin, Chairman Mao, Idi Amin, Castro and so on and so on and so on.

....

Godwin wants his thread back.

Charlatan · 10-06-2005, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Remember just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they aren't all out to get you.

Lets think for a moment here. Lets say we have a major deadly outbreak in a fine city like Detroit. We have people dying by the score, and whats the first thing people are going to want to do? They are going to want to get the hell out of the city, and in so doing may spread it across the country.

If you rely on the states to quarantine it might work out just fine, or the state could be run like Louisiana.

I think it’s a good idea, I’d rather not see a repeat of 1918 thanks.

I completely agree with Ustwo on this and stand by my original statement. If there is a major outbreak Martial Law is going to be the least of your worries.

The travel patterns of 1918 compared to today are vastly different. The models I've seen for the spread of a pandemic frighteningly fast. We will be lucky if even Marital Law will slow the rate at which it will spread.

Chances are by the time the military is involved it will be too late anyway.

pan6467 · 10-06-2005, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinguerre

Godwin wants his thread back.

I'd like to know how that was a threadjack, as you are implying it to be.

I simply point out that history has taught us the military will turn on their own, after a post said it wouldn't happen. I was NOT comparing Bush to anyone of those people. I don't believe him to be.

How can you quote one sentence and not the whole post.... read and quote the whole post before you accuse me.

But history and those examples have shown it is easy for the military to restrict citizens, while following orders and that we need to be ever vigilant and know it could happen here.

Going for Martial Law over this whenyou will not be able to contain the virus, would appear to be a step in a very bad direction.

rsl12 · 10-06-2005, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

Or is the plan to put Martial Law down BEFORE any outbreak occurs?????

China did a pretty good job containing SARS, once the government got their act together and realized what they had on their hands. Martial Law in is what kept the disease from running amok in China. I don't think anyone can argue otherwise.

Ustwo · 10-06-2005, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsl12

China did a pretty good job containing SARS, once the government got their act together and realized what they had on their hands. Martial Law in is what kept the disease from running amok in China. I don't think anyone can argue otherwise.

SARS was the most overblown disease to date. The common flu killed more people that year, but thats another topic all together.

rsl12 · 10-06-2005, 05:42 AM

Overblown here in the US, but I don't think it was overblown in China!! But again, it's another topic.

Carno · 10-06-2005, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinguerre

i think it's important to recall that the military is not a completly blind institution. while significantly more conservative on average than a randdom sampling of americans, they are not completely divorced from civilian concerns. Many of them were at one time, have family that currently are, or plan on being in the future just that, civilians.

While i think it's important to discuss the militarization of police efforts, and some of the problems that can create...i think one outcome we can safely take off the table is that a president could simply order the hostile take over of the nation with a completly complient military to do his or her bidding.

Um, who ever said that the military would be "completely compliant?" Looking back at history, there was almost never a case of someone taking power without a civil war.

Hell, I don't think Bush could take over the US, but if the laws are in place, what's to keep some future dipshit president from trying it?

History is a fucking textbook. Learn from it. It's shit like this that makes me so mad. You think it could never happen now, but I'm sure that a lot of people in the past thought it couldn't happen in their country either. Slowly but surely, the government is chipping away. Little increases here, little decreases there, small enough so that nobody will notice.

Yeah sure Bush could change the laws and say that the military would only be used in the event of a disease. But what exactly is stopping a president from declaring martial law when there wasn't a disease? Bush invaded two countries based on lies, for God's sake. Get a clue people.

guthmund · 10-06-2005, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

If a president really wants to try this, there are a lot of easier ways to set it up than this.

One of the things I always find amusing with the 'Bush is going to take over the country' people is that if he had that in mind, he would also been of a mind to plant WMD's in Iraq. The deceit and malice just isn't there.

If a president wanted to take over the US he couldn't really do it alone, he would need a merry band of loyal followers to do his bidding. If I was such a president, do you think I'd use a pandemic outbreak of a disease? My minions, would put a small nuke in a US city, no one would care when I declared marshal law after that, and I'd go from there.

Why not use a pandemic outbreak of a disease to fan the fear in the heart of all America? Avian Flu?? It's a natural disaster. Couldn't be prevented. No security services at fault, no hearings to convene, no 'enemy' to hunt down, and most importantly, no blame for anyone.

It's an 'Act of God,' unavoidable...sorry, it turned out the way it did. If only 'we' had listened. And it makes it easier the next time...and the next time...and the next time, especially when he starts invoking the really scary stuff, dirty bombs, terror cells, etc, etc.

I'm usually not a worst case scenario kind of guy and I don't always think the worst of people. I just like to err on the side of caution, especially when it concerns my government, which seems to be drowned in ulterior motives.

stevo · 10-06-2005, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carn

Um, who ever said that the military would be "completely compliant?" Looking back at history, there was almost never a case of someone taking power without a civil war.

Hell, I don't think Bush could take over the US, but if the laws are in place, what's to keep some future dipshit president from trying it?

History is a fucking textbook. Learn from it. It's shit like this that makes me so mad. You think it could never happen now, but I'm sure that a lot of people in the past thought it couldn't happen in their country either. Slowly but surely, the government is chipping away. Little increases here, little decreases there, small enough so that nobody will notice.

Yeah sure Bush could change the laws and say that the military would only be used in the event of a disease. But what exactly is stopping a president from declaring martial law when there wasn't a disease? Bush invaded two countries based on lies, for God's sake. Get a clue people.

So lets declare an official threadjack.

Now please list the two (2) countries that were invaded based on lies.

------------
Ok, charlatan, I'll cut the rookie some slack. You know how my moodswings are, I get pissy then happy, then just don't care. If it weren't for these hot-flashes....

------------

Seriously though, If marshal law was able to contain the outbreak, that would be great. But I've got concerns as well that it would probably spread to several cities before any action would take place. Sure, the first reports would be in Detroit, marshal law is declared, Detroid is quarantiened. But before the first day is over reports would be coming from Chicago, Philadelphia, and Kansas City. You know how it goes. But I agree with Charlatan on this one 100%, if there was an outbreak of a killer flu, marshal law and bush becoming supreme dictator is the last of your worries.

-----------
One more thing...So tech, FEMA is now capeable of controlling this, and isn't the nat'l guard military? and I know the difference, but it would make sense to me to have centralized government controlling the situation that state governers. like I said, if it hits one city, it will be in many states.

Carno · 10-06-2005, 08:55 AM

Actually I misspoke, not two countries, just Iraq.

hrandani · 10-06-2005, 09:02 AM

Godwin's law says that if an internet discussion gets past a certain length Hitler will be invoked

He wasn't accusing you of threadjacking

pan6467 · 10-06-2005, 09:06 AM

I'm still lost as to where the threadjacking is.

Is this not a thread on Bush declaring Martial Law?

If so it opens up worst case scenarios and debates as to what could or would happen as well as if he should or shouldn't.

That is what is going on here, now should this be moved to politics or paranoia? Perhaps.

I really wish someone would explain where the threadjacking started.

stevo · 10-06-2005, 09:09 AM

I wasn't the first to invoke threadjack. But my vote would be for paranoia...if we are voting to move this thread.

Charlatan · 10-06-2005, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

One more thing...So tech, FEMA is now capeable of controlling this, and isn't the nat'l guard military? and I know the difference, but it would make sense to me to have centralized government controlling the situation that state governers. like I said, if it hits one city, it will be in many states.

I think the point Tecoyah and others were trying to make is that FEMA *should* be capable the fact that they aren't is disturbing.

I also think it will take the military *and* the national guard to contain something as big as the projections on avian flu...

Honestly, I don't think any of us are ready for it. Domestic and International travel are too prevalent. One infected airplane will be enough to do it... think about just one airplane load of infected passengers landing in Chicago, La Guardia, Los Angeles... How many people will they come into contact with and what are the destinations of all those people?

Wild fires in LA are slower to spread than this...

martinguerre · 10-06-2005, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

I simply point out that history has taught us the military will turn on their own, after a post said it wouldn't happen. I was NOT comparing Bush to anyone of those people. I don't believe him to be.

None of those were the American military. And say what you will about this country (such as it really is kind of f$cked up these days) and it's all true...but we still do have a pretty strong national myth of democracy and self-rule. We have a legitimated tradition of the military not doing that shit. None of those countries had that. Despite the real possibilities for abuses, i do not think these worst case scenarios of military fema whatever rule are worth talking about.

They weren't credible when it was armed loons in montana talking about Kaiser Klinton and the coming UN, ATF and FEMA eschaton. It isn't credible now. And whatever you want to say about not personally comparing Bush to genocidal leaders...you're trying to back out of the corner you put yourself into. I didn't need to do any word twisting to say that you'd Godwin'd it pretty strongly there.

i'm as partisan a democrat as you're likely to find and i think this is nuts.

Thorny · 10-06-2005, 01:17 PM

Um, don't worry about martial law, the local health department has more power than the military ever could in times of "public health emergency."

Health departments have UNLIMITED spending authority (which local government must pass on to the residents), the ability to impose quarantine (not technically anymore, but de facto through closing down any public space and other controls on gatherings and public functions), and pretty much blanket approval to do ANYTHING to stop the spread of disease.

Ideally, this allows for an immediate and effective response, but public health in this country has corroded and lacks the ability to respond effectively to anything more serious than a dog bite.

Elphaba · 10-06-2005, 01:47 PM

As others have already pointed out, this virus would go world-wide in an amazingly short time, and well before it is differentiated from other flu varieties. Bush must certainly know this so I find his martial law suggestion questionable at best.

I would prefer that this be left with the CDC and the local emergency response teams that we supposedly already have in place.

docbungle · 10-06-2005, 03:42 PM

So,
Bush being proactive on this a bad thing? I hardly think so. Especially in light of certain recent events, such as the hurricanes and whatnot. He is just thinking out loud and making people aware of some options in case this were to happen. There is certainly nothing wrong with that.

pan6467 · 10-06-2005, 05:17 PM

Truth is if nature sends out a disease that is going to be the next plague, there isn't a whole Hell of a lot we are going to be able to do about it.

I think talking and threatening to do this that or the other is talk and won't change millions from dying from it if we are going to die from it.

The only defense we have is a medical community working non-stop on a vaccine or cure.

Of course this is just the latest in a cycle of diseases to be talked about as the "next plague".

20 years ago it was AIDS

10 years ago it was Ebola

5 years ago it was SARS or the mosquitoes that carried encepholitis(sp?)

Point is we're always going to have it out there, disease, and we can live our lives worried and hoping government can find a cure before it is the plague, or we can go about life and realize there isn't much we can do.

Like I said working in a drug rehab with all sorts of germies already, if it comes I'm probably done, so I can worry everyday about it and keep my distance or I can go about my life and if I get it, I get it.

Expecting or allowing the president to lay down Martial Law, before all else has been done to try to stop it is a wasted effort. If it is coming it's coming and Martial Law won't do a damned thing to stop it.

sprocket · 10-06-2005, 06:15 PM

Pan, you seem very intelligent and have a great amount of passion displayed in all your posts on this board.. quit letting it be steered by the fear mongering politicians and press. This is really pretty over the top.

Actually same goes for all of you seriously entertaining this notion that bush is setting the stage for a coup.

pan6467 · 10-06-2005, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sprocket

Pan, you seem very intelligent and have a great amount of passion displayed in all your posts on this board.. quit letting it be steered by the fear mongering politicians and press. This is really pretty over the top.

Actually same goes for all of you seriously entertaining this notion that bush is setting the stage for a coup.

I truly thank you for the compliment, that means a lot to me right now and it is deeply needed and appreciated.

I truly know that there will be no coup and I seriously have doubts over any Martial Law coming, but at the same time, there is some fun in playing around with what ifs. And it is a bit of a stress reliever for me.

10-05-2005, 12:51 PM	#2 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	If there was a major outbreak... I think declaring martial law will be the least of your worries. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

10-05-2005, 12:55 PM	#4 (permalink)
stevo Rail Baron Location: Tallyfla	Thanks for the article. I read it on google news earlier. Thanks for your opinion...oh you don't have one. Nevermind. __________________ "If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

10-05-2005, 12:55 PM	#5 (permalink)
rsl12 On the lam Location: northern va	I agree. This particular flu is not dissimilar to the one discussed here that killed 25-50 million people over less than 2 years: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Flu __________________ oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

10-05-2005, 04:24 PM	#7 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	and yes.. a good way to get a mod to lock it and say,"thank you come again" onus on the OP to give their opinion and start the discussion, not just post a link and copy the text and run away. I'll give you some time to add your thoughts. having been to Manila recently and watching unfiltered news (meaning not American CNN or FOX) and now in India its amazing to see and hear how much effort is going on here for containment. When we walked from one gate to the next in Hong Kong, there was a thermal camera monitoring all the passengers walking down the hallway. Anyone remotely not at 98.7 (or whatever it is in Celsius) is pulled off to the side and quarantined for a spell until they find out if they are positive for the Bird flu. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

10-05-2005, 05:36 PM	#8 (permalink)
Carno Junkie	Too dangerous. I don't want the military doing anything other than what it's supposed to do: fight wars. That Bush wants to change the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 makes me very nervous. __________________ http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/

10-05-2005, 06:22 PM	#9 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	I believe we have a center for disease control, Fema, Nat'l guard, and a quite a few other agencys capable of taking on domestic issues such as this. If indeed these entities still exist in a couple years. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

10-05-2005, 06:30 PM	#10 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Unless you have 1000's upon 1000's dying in the streets and a plague like atmosphere the government has no right whatsoever to lay down Martial Law. This is an excuse to lay it down, and there are so many factors that would need to be made public before I would ever consider supporting it. - What are the criteria that have to be met in order for it to be called? - Is it just infected areas or would the whole nation be under Martial Law? - How long would it last? - What would the "Martial Law" entail? Doesn't surprise me Bush would do this, it's power baby all about the power, when I see things like this I truly worry about '08 and '09 and him leaving office. This type of action makes me think he has no intentions of it and is setting the groundwork for declaring an emergency of some type and staying in office. I am on the frontlines, as many addicts are not exactly the healthiest, cleanest or disease free people, so I see a lot of communicable diseases come through. Declaring Martial Law what would that do? I mean would the gov't prevent us from shopping or to go anywhere but they would still have to work but where if noone is allowed to shop? Sounds to me like we are taking the easy way out, what we should be doing is working on a cure or vaccine and getting it knocked out like other diseases in our past. Instead it seems our pharmaceutical companies are more worried about finding cures for toenail fungus and other inane diseases. Fuck Martial Law..... find the cure or vaccine ..... do what our ancestors did, fight back and live life fearlessly. Sounds cold but we all have to die and Martial Law over this won't contain it if it truly becomes a massive epidemic/pandemic. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

10-05-2005, 06:46 PM	#11 (permalink)
guthmund big damn hero	I certainly agree with the majority... There are plenty of other, certainly more qualified, folks who can handle this. Leave the military out of it. I have to say, I was listening to snippets of a speech the President gave the other day on the radio and...well, this whole bird flu thing just seemed to come out of nowhere. The reconstruction efforts are underway on the Gulf coast, we're doing fine in Iraq, Judge Roberts is now Justice Roberts and have you met the new nomination? Oh by the way.... I think we should declare martial law because of....bird flu? It just struck me as...odd. __________________ No signature. None. Seriously.

10-05-2005, 07:40 PM	#12 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Remember just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they aren't all out to get you. Lets think for a moment here. Lets say we have a major deadly outbreak in a fine city like Detroit. We have people dying by the score, and whats the first thing people are going to want to do? They are going to want to get the hell out of the city, and in so doing may spread it across the country. If you rely on the states to quarantine it might work out just fine, or the state could be run like Louisiana. I think it’s a good idea, I’d rather not see a repeat of 1918 thanks. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by Ustwo; 10-05-2005 at 08:06 PM..

10-05-2005, 08:07 PM	#13 (permalink)
Carno Junkie	No fuckin way. I'd rather catch a disease than have the chance that some fuckin wacked out loonie will try to use the military to take over the country or something. I harbor a deep mistrust for all politicians and Presidents. They're all fucking dirtbags, every single last one of them. And I certainly don't want to make it easier for one of them to go all Julius Caesar on us and cross the Rubicon with the military. Fuck that. If that ever happened, I'd be the first one to attempt an assassination. __________________ http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/

10-05-2005, 10:18 PM	#15 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	while i'm not exactly a fan of martial law, plagues, republicans, or chickens: i think it's important to recall that the military is not a completly blind institution. while significantly more conservative on average than a randdom sampling of americans, they are not completely divorced from civilian concerns. Many of them were at one time, have family that currently are, or plan on being in the future just that, civilians. While i think it's important to discuss the militarization of police efforts, and some of the problems that can create...i think one outcome we can safely take off the table is that a president could simply order the hostile take over of the nation with a completly complient military to do his or her bidding. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

10-05-2005, 11:18 PM	#17 (permalink)
ChistledStone Crazy Location: Australia	http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/...191820898.html - Sorry about no quote, but an Australian article about the effects. Not being an American, I'd give Bush martial law powers. I'd say that I'd rather have the immensely small chance that a dumbass like Bush take power to save my family. Although if he did take total power, it'd be ironic if he got birdflu and died. Worthy of a comedy sketch. __________________ A.minor.fall.then.a.major.lift

10-05-2005, 11:39 PM	#19 (permalink)
PredeconInferno Reclusiarch Location: Unfortunately Houston, TX	I think there are better ways to quarantine an area than declaring martial law. When all is said and done, wouldn't that mean actually HELPING the spread of such a virus? __________________ Samurai in Training Knowledge is power. Guard it well.

10-06-2005, 05:42 AM	#25 (permalink)
rsl12 On the lam Location: northern va	Overblown here in the US, but I don't think it was overblown in China!! But again, it's another topic. __________________ oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

10-06-2005, 08:55 AM	#29 (permalink)
Carno Junkie	Actually I misspoke, not two countries, just Iraq. __________________ http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/

10-06-2005, 09:02 AM	#30 (permalink)
hrandani Insane	Godwin's law says that if an internet discussion gets past a certain length Hitler will be invoked He wasn't accusing you of threadjacking

10-06-2005, 09:06 AM	#31 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	I'm still lost as to where the threadjacking is. Is this not a thread on Bush declaring Martial Law? If so it opens up worst case scenarios and debates as to what could or would happen as well as if he should or shouldn't. That is what is going on here, now should this be moved to politics or paranoia? Perhaps. I really wish someone would explain where the threadjacking started. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

10-06-2005, 09:09 AM	#32 (permalink)
stevo Rail Baron Location: Tallyfla	I wasn't the first to invoke threadjack. But my vote would be for paranoia...if we are voting to move this thread. __________________ "If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

10-06-2005, 01:17 PM	#35 (permalink)
Thorny Upright Location: Ohio	Um, don't worry about martial law, the local health department has more power than the military ever could in times of "public health emergency." Health departments have UNLIMITED spending authority (which local government must pass on to the residents), the ability to impose quarantine (not technically anymore, but de facto through closing down any public space and other controls on gatherings and public functions), and pretty much blanket approval to do ANYTHING to stop the spread of disease. Ideally, this allows for an immediate and effective response, but public health in this country has corroded and lacks the ability to respond effectively to anything more serious than a dog bite.

10-06-2005, 01:47 PM	#36 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	As others have already pointed out, this virus would go world-wide in an amazingly short time, and well before it is differentiated from other flu varieties. Bush must certainly know this so I find his martial law suggestion questionable at best. I would prefer that this be left with the CDC and the local emergency response teams that we supposedly already have in place.

10-06-2005, 03:42 PM	#37 (permalink)
docbungle It's all downhill from here Location: Denver	So, Bush being proactive on this a bad thing? I hardly think so. Especially in light of certain recent events, such as the hurricanes and whatnot. He is just thinking out loud and making people aware of some options in case this were to happen. There is certainly nothing wrong with that. __________________ Bad Luck City Last edited by docbungle; 10-06-2005 at 03:45 PM..

10-06-2005, 05:17 PM	#38 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Truth is if nature sends out a disease that is going to be the next plague, there isn't a whole Hell of a lot we are going to be able to do about it. I think talking and threatening to do this that or the other is talk and won't change millions from dying from it if we are going to die from it. The only defense we have is a medical community working non-stop on a vaccine or cure. Of course this is just the latest in a cycle of diseases to be talked about as the "next plague". 20 years ago it was AIDS 10 years ago it was Ebola 5 years ago it was SARS or the mosquitoes that carried encepholitis(sp?) Point is we're always going to have it out there, disease, and we can live our lives worried and hoping government can find a cure before it is the plague, or we can go about life and realize there isn't much we can do. Like I said working in a drug rehab with all sorts of germies already, if it comes I'm probably done, so I can worry everyday about it and keep my distance or I can go about my life and if I get it, I get it. Expecting or allowing the president to lay down Martial Law, before all else has been done to try to stop it is a wasted effort. If it is coming it's coming and Martial Law won't do a damned thing to stop it. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

10-06-2005, 06:15 PM	#39 (permalink)
sprocket Psycho Location: In transit	Pan, you seem very intelligent and have a great amount of passion displayed in all your posts on this board.. quit letting it be steered by the fear mongering politicians and press. This is really pretty over the top. Actually same goes for all of you seriously entertaining this notion that bush is setting the stage for a coup. __________________ Remember, wherever you go... there you are. Last edited by sprocket; 10-06-2005 at 06:25 PM..