ophelia783

From CNN

All I have to say is, it's about time!

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Mr Honest

I am left wing.
I don't worship the death penalty. Not because I respect all human life without question.
In any capitalist society for example the idea that there is one fair justice for all, that the quality of your laywer, your class and the colour of your skin, the make up of the jury and the personality of the Judge make no difference to the outcome is just a sick joke.
However don't think I love all killers. Those that killed if they fried their sadistic low asses I would be happy. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
Say I met the person I believe was a lovely woman and I later learnt even after sex they used to be a man. Would I hate them? No. Would I feel upset they didn't tell me? Yes. Would I shout and scream abuse at them? No.
Would I want the world to hate and ridicule them? Never. Enough.
Whenever an innocent person is killed the world is a far worse place.

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Cynthetiq

I'm glad that people are brought to justice for crimes against fellow humans.

I'm glad that it was not labeled a hate crime but at the same time I'm conflicted because from the way the article reads and puts it out there as it sounds like there was some sort of hate/bias involved.

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ChistledStone

It sickens me that there is still no acceptance for many minorities. Sure it may feel different to realize you had intercourse with a man, but killing is never the answer to anything.

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martinguerre

There was some sort of hate involved. People don't strangle, beat, and bury people for no reason. It's called a motive. The motive in this case is that these men felt threatened by the fact that this woman was natally (and i'm assuming from the article physiologically) male. We discriminate about motives all the time. it's often the difference between manslaughter and murder (or various degrees of each), for example. The mens rea, the mind set that produces criminal behavior is important in how we classify it. A murder for profit is considered a more serious crime than a crime of anger (regardless of premeditation). An assault that intends to keep people from voting is more likely to draw a stiff sentance than one that happens in the context of an argument over a game of darts. A sexual assault against a minor is more serious than one against an adult.

I'm sick to death of all this talk as if hate crimes laws were the only time we cared about motive or the idenity of the victim. Our justice system would be dumb as a brick if the only thing we cared about was the actions.

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Ustwo

Hate crime laws are moronic by nature, a murder is a murder.

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ophelia783

I'm just glad she got some justice.

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Psycho Dad

Yet the way the laws sometimes work someone may get 15 years for killing a single mother working to support two kids in a convenience store while another may get life for killing his dealer over some bad shit. There often doesn't seem to be any consistency.

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Ustwo

Less liberal judges, problem solved

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

fatmanforprez

Ok well first of all i don't know the case so i can only assume that the judgement is just, as most of you seem to be assuming. That said i agree it isnt a hate crime the motive was very clearly (from what i read) that they didnt expect her to be packing heat if you know what i mean. And while i think death is a bad idea it isnt cause i dont like the finality of it, it is because life without parole is so much mroe punishing.

That said I am gonna voice an unpopular opinion here and one that i hope noone mistakes for biased (i have known more than one transgendered person in my life and hold them in what is the best light of understanding I can muster, it is difficult for me to understand but I do my best)

Possible threadjack and offensive banter ensues now (see apology at the end first if requsite)

To have gone as far as she did without telling them should be a crime in and of itself. I Understand that it is difficult to explain to someone. I Understand that its hard to find a way that dosent make everythign look like a lie. I Understand that the fact that there were two men involved means this all prolly happened really fast for her. What I dont understand is how someone who obviously knew alot about social predjudice and obviously knew alot about homophobia (remember it was men she was walkign into the house of and she was born a male) why didnt it occur to her that this was unfair to them.

Now dont get me wrong I am not condoneing murder or even abuse but I can tell you if I relize that that which I have been lusting over (or for all i knew thought I loved) is a biological male. I would panic, I would say alot of hurtful things, I would be very distressed

That dosent make murder right but it dosent make her actions pristine either.

/threadjack and offensive banter

Now that said if i offeneded anyone I am greatly sorry I never ment to offend anyone. In anticipation i will be prepared for my flogging this Saturday in the town square if I am found to be an insufferable lout.

vautrain

I don't think anyone who hasn't gone through, can truly understand what it means to honestly feel trapped in the wrong body. I can only guess that it completely wrecks ones sense of what is honest (especially regarding his/her sex), such a person would have to lie so much.

It makes it an unfortunate situation for the men, but one they could have mitigated by thoroughly checking out what she was "packing" before fucking her. Who is to say they didn't know what they were getting, and simply had later regrets? In this case, we'll never know, because she's dead.

In any case, legislating this unfortunate situation to punish the transgender would be inappropriate, IMO.

martinguerre

A lot of men have issues with women who are more sexually experienced than they are. When they find out, they may panic or say hurtful things, even resort to violence. Should the law require people to identify themselves by how many previous sexual partners they have? These blokes clearly were okay with not knowing damn near anything before having a woman suck them off. Why would we change the law to require that she's in the wrong for not volenteering what they didn't want to know? Why is it her responsbility to disclose, and not theirs to find out by knowing their sexual partners better?

I'm not much of a fan of casual sex (at least personally), but i don't think that it, in any form, needs criminalization.

i think that people need to be held accountable for when their reactions to life include violence.

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Gilda

Nonsense. Criminilizing consensual sex between people who are of age was a bad idea in the past, and it's a bad idea now. Her having male genetalia in no way harmed the . . . I can't call them people, as they don't deserve that much respect . . . scum she performed oral sex on. Short of knowingly passing on a communicable disease to a partner, no aspect of consensual sex should be regulated by the government or criminilized.

Perhaps this might help:

Here's what they did to her:

Quote:

They all agreed that if someone did this to a killer, that person would "get smoked." Jaron was always talking like that, trying to sound like a mobster instead of an econ major. But later, recounting the conversation in a letter to his girlfriend, Jaron reported that the guys knew what they were going to do if Lida turned out to be a guy. "We went off on a Tony Soprano-type plan to kill the bitch and get rid of the body," Jaron wrote. [article edited for length. Suspecting that Gwen might be physically male, they invite her into their house] All of a sudden, Jose pushed back his chair, stood up behind her and felt the front of her neck. "What the hell are you doing?" Lida asked. "We want to know why you want everybody to fuck you in the ass," Jose said, already starting to seethe. She looked up at him, startled. "Jose, how can you ask me that?" According to Jaron, who would recall the night in vivid detail, the other guys jumped in. "Just answer the question," they advised Lida. "You're cool to have around, and we just want to know." They had never seen Lida at a loss for words. She stared into space for several long moments before she finally protested, "No, no, no, no, no -- I'm not." By then, Mike had slid his hand between her legs, saying, "Just let me feel it and everything will be chill." But Lida clamped both her hands down on her lap. "No," she said. "I'm not going to let you molest me." Mike pulled back. "Look," he suggested. "Let's go in the bathroom and you can show me." OK, Lida said. But she made a break for the front door, saying she needed a cigarette first. Jaron blocked her way. "You've got to do this first," he instructed her. Mike took Lida into the little guest bathroom near the front door. After the lock clicked, the rest of the guys sat around the table, talking about how this might be a dude after all. A real girl would have answered the question quick and easy, right? Why had Lida hesitated so long? "I swear, if it's a man, I'll kill him," Jose hissed. "If it's a dude, she's not leaving -- he's not leaving." Finally Mike emerged. "Same old shit," he reported. "She won't let me feel." The guys decided that Nicole might have more luck, being a woman, so she and Mike went back in the bathroom. Jose stalked outside to take a piss. A minute later, Mike came out again. "I didn't feel balls," he said, "but I felt two pairs of underwear. That's a man. That's got to be a man. I don't know what I'm going to do." "Just be calm and think clear," Jaron told him. "Whatever you do, don't make a mess." Mike got behind him and put a chokehold on Jaron's skinny neck. "What about this?" he asked. "Can you breathe?" Jaron could only shake his head no. Suddenly, they heard a scream. Nicole came busting out of the bathroom, yelling, "This is a fucking man!" Lida bolted toward the front door, but Mike caught her, pinned her to the carpet, yanked up her skirt, peeled back her underwear. "Fucking balls," he spat. "Right there -- fucking balls." He let Lida stand up and got behind her, putting a chokehold on her. Jose stunned his friends by starting to cry. "I can't be gay," he repeated over and over again. "I can't be fucking gay." Nicole tried to console him. "Any girl you meet after this, it won't make a difference," she told him, putting her hands on his shoulders. "You still look like the football player I knew you as." Mike had Lida down on the carpet again, his legs locked around hers, his meaty forearm clamping down on her Adam's apple. Jay pulled him off and Lida struggled to her knees. "Please don't," she gasped. "I have a family." Jose ran to the kitchen and grabbed a can of food. When he came back into the living room, he reared back and pounded Lida over the head with it. She crumpled against the wall, blood welling up on the crown of her head. Jose ran out again, came back this time with a frying pan. Mike propped Lida up while Jose swung and connected, square on her forehead. Nicole decided to leave. Jay and Jaron got into Mike's truck. "They're going to kill that bitch," Jay said. The two friends drove to the house where Jay lived with his parents. Tiptoeing into the pitch-black storage shed, they used their lighters to locate three shovels and a pick. Ten minutes later, they were back at the party house. Lida was sitting on the couch by then, hands in her lap, blood streaking down her face. Jose was bitching about the blood, how it was getting everywhere, how he was going to have to clean it up. "Get off the couch," he ordered Lida. She did as she was told, standing up against the wall while Jose furiously scrubbed blood off the cushions. Mike came in from the garage and asked Jaron for his ten-inch hunting knife. A minute later he was back with an armful of white rope. "Enough is enough," Jaron thought. It seemed like this had been going on for a couple of hours, and sooner or later Lida would start yelling and wake the neighbors. "Knock the bitch out," he said. Mike dropped the rope and punched Lida in the face, once, twice. She fell limp, slid down the wall, landed ass-first with a muffled thud. Perfect position for Mike to knee her a couple of more times, right in the face. The second time, Jaron heard Lida's head snap back into the wall, leaving a puckered dent in the plaster. Mike picked up the rope and wrapped it around her wrists four or five times. He did the same thing with her ankles. Seeing that her blood was getting everywhere, Jay fetched a comforter. They wrapped Lida in it. She wasn't putting up a fight anymore. Her legs jutted out the bottom of the blanket, below her smooth brown calves, but the rest of her was bundled up well enough for Mike, Jay and Jaron to hoist her up and cart her out to the garage. Jose kept scrubbing the couch and crying. In the garage, where they first tasted Lida's lips just a couple of months before, broken crap was strewn everywhere. There was a washer and dryer, an old refrigerator and a beat-up car buried under a pile of junk. The guys dumped Lida on a piece of carpet near the back door. Mike grabbed a loose end of the rope with his bloody hands, pulled it around her neck and twisted, hard. [Jaron later confessed to the police and led them to Gwen's body] On the way, he retraced for the cops what happened after they killed Lida. How the four of them piled into Mike's truck, the body flung in back along with the shovels and pick. How they headed for Silver Fork because they had gone there as kids, and because Jay heard there was only one sheriff patrolling the whole vast wilderness up there. How they drove the four hours in near-total silence, making sure not to exceed the speed limit, until they finally climbed into the mountains and hung a right -- right here -- at Silver Fork Road. How they bumped farther and farther into the woods, until they were almost lost amid the cedar trees. How they fell into perfect sync as they dug a makeshift grave, everything quiet except for the wind and the whoosh of the nearby river. How you could hear Lida's body thud on the ground when they dragged it out of the back of the truck and flung it in the grave. How Jose broke the silence, saying, "I could kick her a couple more times, shit makes me so mad." How they threw rocks on top of the body and heaved a hollow tree trunk over the grave to make it look more natural. How, realizing that they were hungry, they hit the drive-through at the first McDonald's they spotted, just down the mountain in Placerville.

No, her actions weren't "pristine". Few victims of violent crime are. That's entirely irrelevant. Read the above, what these cockroaches did to her.

What exactly had she done to them to deserve this?

She seduced them and had consensual sex with them. That doesn't justify their so much as laying one finger on her.

Gilda

Link to the article in Rolling Stone from which the above information is taken.

P.S. I was watching a rerun of The West Wing yesterday which dealt with the murder of a young man for being gay, hate crimes, and the death penalty. President Bartlet asks his aide, Charlie, whose mother was a police officer killed in the line of duty, if he would want to see his mother's killer executed.

I place myself in his shoes by imagining how I'd feel if this were my sister who had been killed, if I would want to see her killers executed, and my answer is the same as Charlie's:

No. I'd want to do it myself.

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flat5

"Boy's Don't Cry" is the movie. Only they killed because she acted as a male.
Not because she had sex with anyone.

In both cases, these "people" were friends for months.
Both victims were 17, I believe. It is terrible.

Cynthetiq

exactly why I'm not so sure of it NOT being a hate crime as this out of ALL the others discussed in the past ring clear as day as a hate/bias crime.

The only time we care about them being hate or bias crimes is in these types of situations, yet if say it was one white guy who hated another white guy it's still not a hate/bias crime.

It's not the judicial system that is dumb as bricks it's the people that blindly accept the media stating something as a bias crime, ala Tawana Brawley and her shenanigans against Steven Pagones basically ruining his life and career based on a hate crime lie.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Gilda

Well, they did rape him earlier.

Otherwise, it does bear a resemblance to the Brandon Teena case, with some significant differences. Brandon was raped by his friends because he was still physically female. He was treated badly by the police, who called him "it" and ridiculed him, didn't investigate except to tell the rapists about the charges and accept what they said at face value, and then didn't provide Brandon with any protection. His attackers tracked him down and killed him to shut him up, to protect themselves from the rape charge.

In other words, they raped him because he was transgender, and murdered him (and two other people) to try to cover up the rape.

In both cases, the victim did a lot of foolish things, but in neither case does this mitigate the crime.

Gilda

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Gilda

There are two kinds of factors that affect the severity of the crime in homocides, mitigating factors, and aggravating factors.

Hate crimes legislation is, to me, similar to drunk driving laws. Before drunk driving was added as a crime in itself, and as an aggravating factor in vehicular crimes, drunkenness was often invoked as a mitigating factor when a drunk driver got into an accident.

Being drunk is, for the most part, perfectly legal, but that becomes an important factor in determining degree of culpablilty when a vehicular crime occurs, even though it, in iteself, is not a crime.

I see hate crimes legislation in a similar vein. Hating gays isn't illegal, nor do I think it should be, and hate crimes legislation won't make it so. What it will do is take that into account as an aggravating factor when it leads to a crime.

Nobody is punishing anyone for what they're thinking here, the suggestion is that certain motivations for a crime should lead to a more severe penalty for that crime. So long as the bigots don't hurt others, they're perfectly safe.

Abuse of the system is of course abominable, precisely because it makes it more difficult for legitimate cases to get the hearing they deserve. False accusations of racism or homophobia or sexism are abhorant. This does not mean we shouldn't take the accurate accusations seriously, just that we must be careful to discriminate between the two.

Gilda

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FoolThemAll

I can buy that, given different penalties for profit killings and whatnot. But my question is this: why for hate crimes? What's the purpose of a more severe penalty when the motivation is hate?

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spongy

I think the important thing is that the crime is committed. I find it unjust that I get my ass kicked by a redneck and it's an asskicking. It's hate crime if I'm gay. Racism if I'm black.

What's the difference?

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martinguerre

Uh. Yes? People do not usually try to exterminate or intimidate in to non-existance their own racial or ethnic group. That intimidation, the removal of the right to exist by non-legal means is an additional crime. It's called a compound offence. Say for instance, if Joe accidentally shot someone while doing something legal, Joe might get manslaughter. But if Joe is commiting a felony, Joe gets Felony Murder. And that's capitol.

Gilda's logic on aggrivating factors parallels this idea as well.

Utterly irrelevant. If laws could be disproved by one wrongful accusation, we wouldn't have a single statute on the books.

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DieZel

Yeah, I've noticed such a thing too. In the last 40 years people became so aware of racism and sexism that they became tolerating black people, women, gays etc more than others. That's not right too- people must be equal!

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FoolThemAll

I'm all for more serious penalties when it can be shown that intimidation of a social group was a motivation of the crime.

But when it's merely hate of an individual member of a social group? No. I don't see a legitimate purpose in increasing the penalty.

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Astrocloud

The bottom line is that someone was murdered. Unless self defense is implied -it really doesn't matter how, who, or what. I'm suprised this is news at all really -except that it brings some unpleasant sexual details into our public discussion.

ophelia783

This is the essence of why I posted this article in the first place. Whether Gwen Araujo's killing was a hate crime or not, she was still murdered in cold blood by two men who were fully aware of what they were doing. I'm glad to see that justice has been served, and she can now rest in peace.

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BigBen

Okay, I think that I am going to have to be the asshole in the room full of saints here...

The title of the thread had the word "Transgender" in it;
The news article was very specific about the sexual nature (and the abnormal sexual nature) of this crime;

In my opinion, the OP and the others who talk about "Hey, I'm upset about the taking of a human life, it doesn't matter that the vicitim was a transgendered female..." are lying to me.

People get murdered all the time. Hell, I bet a dozen people have been hacked up since I started my reply. (In defence of my pretend statistics, I am a very slow typist)

NO, you DON'T CARE about this person being murdered. The fact that they were transgendered has somehow made this case special, fantastic, and newsworthy.

That is the bottom line.

I would now like to solicit comments that object to my reasoning.

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ophelia783

As the original poster, I take offense to that. I posted this specific article because I've been following the case since day one, and I was happy that justice has been served. If I could post an article about every murder that has resulted in a conviction, I would. However, it's not possible.

I'm a Psych major; I enjoy looking into the motivations of any crime, and analyzing any details that I can find. I'm also from the same place where Karla Homolka now resides, which has resparked my intrigue in Forensic Criminology. I don't know the thought process of any of the other posters here, so I can't say why they commented in the first place.

If (G-d forbid) I was murdered, I'm sure the headline that would grab more attention would be "Jew murdered", as opposed to "Woman murdered". Headlines are meant to catch your eye. Don't assume that the only reason people are interested in this case is because the victim is "special"; she's still a victim.

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BigBen

I appologize if offence was taken, but you reinforced my position by stating:No, she is not "STILL A VICTIM", and this is my point,
She has now become a "TRANSGENDERED VICTIM".
This unique spin on the article, the headline, the title of the thread, all focused on this point. You have now intellectually painted yourself into a corner. You no longer have the luxury of saying that the main point is that a human being lost their life. They are now apart from the millions of people who are victims of crime, and even different than other murder victims.

Yes, I will restate that the only reason that people are interested in this case is because she is special. To me, it is blatantly clear.
Please do not take offence.

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snowy

See, this is the reason why I was surprised the article made it into the popular press at all. Murders and crimes committed against transgendered and transsexuals go largely unreported in the mass media. However, you do bring up an excellent point: they sensationalized it. There is no middle ground where reporting regarding crimes against these people are reported like other murders: they're either not talked about at all or tabloidized. Both options sadden me immensely.

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Stiltzkin

I actually do care. Maybe my reasons for caring aren't all that altruistic, but I do care. I just figure that she was probably pretty cute, therefore it's a shame. Yeah, I'm a jerk; oh well.

Gilda

News articles that discuss murders routinely describe the motivation for the crime. They did so in this case.

You're certainly right about that. I don't get the point, though. Violent crime is bad, regardless of the motivation, I agree. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't take special notice of violent crimes that strike a personal note with us for whatever reason.

First, the second part there is true, but I fail to see how you can derive the first from that.

Apply a little logic here. Why would someone post to this thread expressing their disgust at what happened to this woman or their satisfaction at her killers being brought to justice if they didn't care about those aspects of the case?

Did I take notice of this case because the victim was transsexual? Sure. It strikes a very personal chord with me. What's wrong with that? Nobody takes careful notice of every murder, every violent crime. When Shaquille O'neal caught the guys who assaulted the gay couple a couple of days ago, I took notice both because it was Shaq, and because it was a gay bashing. Our time is limited, and we have to choose exactly how to spend it. Our personal interests guide where we spend our disposable time.

The point of entry for many people in this case was probably that the victim was a transsexual, and that's probably the reason it's gotten the degree of coverage that it has. And I say, so what? Transgender women have the highest rate of murder of any demographic group. They're three times as likely to be violently murdered as young black males. Shining a light on a crime that usually escapes notice may help in some way.

You say that people care only about the transgender part, not about the murder. That's fallacious reasoning. The two are not mutually exclusive. It's possible to care about both.

Gilda

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~Steven Colbert

raeanna74

This is such a sad story.

If only those guys could have had the guts to take the 'insult' like a man. It's not like she ever asked to do their asses. If they'd not asked they'd have never known the difference. It's not like it mattered in the big picture. If they truely liked her as a friend it wouldn't have mattered.

There are friends and then there are true friends. We each need to choose our friends for who they are and not what they 'give' or what we can 'give' them. If she had done this then I believe she'd be here today. She wanted friends, she got people who only wanted to use her and then toss her out.

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maximusveritas

Cazares should have been found guilty. His story was very shady. He tried to stop them, but he was too drunk. Then, he went out to smoke a cigarette while they killed her. When they were done, he went to get the equipment to bury her. Yeah, right.
Nabors was probably guilty of murder too, but I guess they needed him as a witness.

BigBen

My reply was focused towards the people who attempted to say, "I am so enlightened and politically correct that I grieve for this human being. Her being transgendered makes no difference to me."

I continue to call that statement bullshit.

I can only imagine someone who grieves for every murder victim in the country, or the continent. They must be fun at parties.

Am I clarifying my viewpoint, or further confusing things? I have a habit of doing more of the latter than the former.

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Ustwo

I think most mens first reaction would be at least to beat the shit out of him. The combination of violation of trust, embarrassment, and revulsion would bring a lot of men to at least some violence. I can't say what my reaction would be if this happened to me, but unless his reaction was basically 'please don't hurt me', odds are I'd hurt him. I don't think this makes me a bad person, I think another man trying to give me head while pretending to be a woman qualifies as 'things someone should get their ass kicked for.'

You can go through all of the issues the transgendered have, and why they would do it, but that doesn't change that its still purposefully deceptive.

Now this does not excuse murder, and they got what they deserved, but there are things in life you can do that make you more likely to be a victim, and in this case the victim was playing a dangerous game.

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martinguerre

As you note, that's a matter of opinion. However, what i think is clear is that violence on this magnitude *does* make a person uncivilized. Our culture is bound by the idea that such disputes are not legally mediated by violence.

Does the phrase "rule of law" ring any bells?

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Ustwo

As a homosexual I don't think you understand what most straight men feel about sexual contact with another man. There is a level of revulsion that is visceral. If someone tricked me into such an act my reaction would be visceral as well. Add on top of that being lied to and yes I can excuse a little violence.


Reread what I said when I stated they 'got what they deserved'. That means they, got what they deserved, aka they were convicted.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

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raeanna74

I agree that the trickery was putting her in a dangerous position that she COULD have avoided. If she had only been a friend and not a sex toy she would not have gotten herself into that situation.

I do not condone the violence those men committed. I don't care how much their ego was hurt or how bad it felt to have been tricked. They needed to walk away, never speak to her again, and never speak of IT again. There was NO excuse for the violence in any way. I would not have been surprised if they had punched her or slapped her once but what they did was with an intent to kill or they would not have gone to get objects with which to beat her with. Inexcuseable.

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"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

Redlemon

I was appreciating your point (but not agreeing) up until the last part that I bolded. There's no excuse for "a little violence".

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I can't read your signature. Sorry.

BigBen

Ummmm, I hope you are talking about in the personal sense, and not in a general one!

Ah, my Rouge Citrus friend, you have inspired another thread!!

/ben runs off to delve into this topic further, in its own thread.

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3.141592654
Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

Ustwo

Sorry but I can make a fist for a reason. I am not a pacifist. If you wrong me enough I will hurt you for it, note I did not say maim or kill, but I will teach you a lesson using pain, something that we have evolved to have for the last several billion years. I have been in a total of two fights my entire life because my judgement is such that I can avoid such situations before they become an issue, and in this case there is little chance that I would ever find myself in such a situation which I didn't know a woman was a man. Regardless there are some things in which I think the BEST punishment is a physical one, and even adults need a spanking now and then.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

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