Why We Have Prisons - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

tecoyah · 09-13-2005, 02:01 AM

No.....not for the Kids.....for these parents:

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local/4961890/detail.html

Sheriff: 9 Kids Kept Locked In Cages
Kids Ages 1 To 14

UPDATED: 9:25 pm EDT September 12, 2005

WAKEMAN, Ohio -- Nine children were found locked in cages in their home in Wakeman in Huron County Monday, NewsChannel5 reported.

The sheriff said the kids, ages 1 to 14, were found in the cages with no blankets or pillows. The wooden cages, estimated to be about 3 foot by 3 foot, were built into the walls. Officials are not releasing the photos of the cages.

The children were taken to Fisher-Titus Medical Center. They are listed in good condition.

Officials said all the children were adopted children. Sharon and Mike Gravelle, the parents, have not been arrested. They had 11 children in all.

Officials said the parents thought they were doing what was best for the children.

"Basically, the parents thought they were providing for the protection of the children from themselves and from each other," said Huron County's Lt. Randy Sommers. "They thought it was circumstances that warranted the cages at night."

Officials added that the parents believed that because the children were autistic they should be kept in the cages for protection from each other.

According to officials, the cages had alarms that would go off if the children tried to escape.

amonkie · 09-13-2005, 02:11 AM

Autism is such a severely misunderstood condition, and it is apparent this family has not been informed that caging children is not only inhumane, but thinking it a neccessity should cry out about a deeper problem. While I applaud those who make the choice to adopt, eleven children is a lot for any two parents. Autistic children add an entirely new twist to the mix.

As someone who has spent extensive time with autistic kids, they require much one on one attention. For them to have more than one or two autistic children, I wonder at the state agency that thought it was in the children's best interest to place so many of them in the same household.

jwoody · 09-13-2005, 02:17 AM

I'm not going to jump to the same conclusion.

The children were in good condition and the parents have not been arrested. It's a shocking headline but there really isn't any meat in the story.

For all we know, these kids may have been trying to kill each other every night. It is possible that cages were in their best interest.

hulk · 09-13-2005, 02:18 AM

Why the hell were they allowed to adopt eleven kids without anyone even inspecting the premesis?

3x3' cages are hardy humane.

kramus · 09-13-2005, 02:28 AM

I am with Amonkie - how does an agency in charge of something as important as special needs children allow this? Where is the oversight? There will be major changes of course. As for the "parents", I am at a complete loss. But I feel sickened.

jwoody · 09-13-2005, 02:30 AM

The police have not released images of the cages....

...so here's a picture of a dog kennel.

Vincentt · 09-13-2005, 03:41 AM

I dunno, I found capsule hotels very relaxing.

This was just at night?

Bill O'Rights · 09-13-2005, 04:45 AM

Quote:

They thought it was circumstances that warranted the cages at night.

I'm sorry, I simply cannot imagine the circumstance that would warrant locking a child in a 3' x 3' wooden cage, at night. With no blanket or pillow. Hell, even our dog has a blanket in her cage.

I keep going back to the phrase..."The wooden cages, estimated to be about 3 foot by 3 foot, were built into the walls." Built...into...the...walls? Hmmm, interesting. So, what I am inferring, from that, is that this was intended, from the onset, to be a long term condition. I don't know of too many houses that have nine built in wooden cages.

11 kids in all. So, were only the 9 autistic? Were only the nine adopted? The article really isn't clear on that point.

I know that it's a rigorous process for any adoption. I should imagine that it would be even more so, when adopting a "special needs" child. Who, I want to know, allows any couple to adopt 9 such children? Certainly that would take a toll on the most patient and caring of parents. Where were the checks and balances? Why were no "red flags" raised? Personally...I think the "parents" need to be locked into 3x3 cages...for a long long time. However...I also feel that whatever so called "system" allowed this to happen needs to be blown apart at the seams.

Bill O'Rights · 09-13-2005, 05:55 AM

http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_pg=54&u_sid=2015473

Quote:

WAKEMAN, Ohio (AP) - Sheriff's deputies found 11 children locked in cages less than 31/2 feet high inside a home, but a couple denied having abused or neglected the children.

A judge on Monday put the children - who range in age from 1 to 14 and who have various disabilities, including autism - in foster homes.

The children were found in nine cages built into the walls of the house near Wakeman, a small northern Ohio city about 50 miles west of Cleveland, according to the Huron County Sheriff's Office. They had no blankets or pillows, and the cages were rigged with alarms that sounded if opened, Lt. Randy Sommers said.

The children told authorities that they slept in the cages - 40 inches high and 40 inches deep - at night.

Sharen and Mike Gravelle are adoptive or foster parents for all 11 children, officials said. Prosecutors were reviewing the case.

Well that answered a few of my questions.

MooseMan3000 · 09-13-2005, 06:08 AM

-11 kids in 9 cages.
-None of the cages are large enough for a full grown person to lay down in (stretched out).
-None of the cages had blankets or pillows.
-There were alarms that sounded when the cage doors opened.

Arguing that the cages may have been in the kids best interest is just plain ridiculous.

The fault lies with both the "parents" and the adoption agency. Both of them need to be severely worked over. One of them with a baseball bat, one of them with some new leadership and rules. I'll let you decide which is which.

alansmithee · 09-13-2005, 06:31 AM

There has to be more to this story. With the information given, I just can't see how the parents aren't locked up. And also, how were these peole allowed to have the care of 11 children, some of which were autistic? This is really baffling.

Kostya · 09-13-2005, 06:48 AM

Regardless of any kind of mitigating circumstances, I can conceive of say, <i>bigger</i> cages for instance.

More to the point, I find it difficult to imagine reasons why anyone would adopt eleven autistic apparently violent children without even eleven cages.

At the very least, these people have failed to provide an acceptable environment for these children, if indeed they are not guilty of deliberate abuse.

09-13-2005, 06:58 AM

Apart from the sensationalism of the news story, I don't see sleeping arrangements being anything to get worked up about. They may well have had pillows and blankets, there were 11 children and 9 'cages' does that mean that the two eldest children slept in a bed? We don't know because the sensationalism of the story would be lost if that were the case.

Yes 11 children is enough for anyone to look after, and I might have some views over how sensible it is for two private individuals running what would appear to be a back-door, unregulated and state funded orphanage - but the cages I can't comment on because they've evidently been exaggerated by the distorted lens of the media.

For example, I remember my baby brother being put to bed in a cot (a bed with rails to stop him falling out at night), he used to play in a play pen - again, basically a cage. We used to have a gate at the top and bottom of the stairs to stop him being able to fall down the stairs. Cripes, we even had the child-lock switches set to lock on the back-doors of the car so that he couldn't accidentally fall out as we were driving along.

Since we kept him in such blatant captivity, should he have been taken off and put into a foster home?

ophelia783 · 09-13-2005, 07:00 AM

There's definitly something going onn behind this story......

First off, why weren't home visits done to see what conditions these kids were?
Secondly, Why would you adopt not just 1, but 11 autistic kids if you didn't know how to deal with them?
Thirdly, why weren't the parents arrested?

I always find that the key question in any child abuse case....It's kinda like how they charged and tried Michael Jackson for sexual abuse, but never took aways his kids.

flat5 · 09-13-2005, 07:03 AM

Kostya, nine cages has a simitre. The room just would not look right with eleven cages.

Most of the thoughts expressed here are obvious. We need more details.

vautrain · 09-13-2005, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kostya

More to the point, I find it difficult to imagine reasons why anyone would adopt eleven autistic apparently violent children without even eleven cages.

Queue that great old Pink Floyd song...

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

mrklixx · 09-13-2005, 08:05 AM

Could've been worse.

Vincentt · 09-13-2005, 08:18 AM

I dunno guys, when I think of kids, I always want to lock them in cages.

Now, I'll give them blankets and pillows, but I still fully intend on putting my kids in cages.

Kids run around all crazy at night, you tell them to lay down and sometimes they get up and run around keeping the other kids awake.. maybe they all join in.

I don't know, I see how the thought process comes about.

After sleeping in that capsule hotel I have been thinking about having those boths installed in my home.. so relaxing to be away from everything 100% dark and great for space.

I think until we see more info, you shouldn't be so hard on the parents..
Where are the kids now, think the next place will be better or worse?

alansmithee · 09-13-2005, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vincentt

I dunno guys, when I think of kids, I always want to lock them in cages.

Now, I'll give them blankets and pillows, but I still fully intend on putting my kids in cages.

Kids run around all crazy at night, you tell them to lay down and sometimes they get up and run around keeping the other kids awake.. maybe they all join in.

I don't know, I see how the thought process comes about.

After sleeping in that capsule hotel I have been thinking about having those boths installed in my home.. so relaxing to be away from everything 100% dark and great for space.

I think until we see more info, you shouldn't be so hard on the parents..
Where are the kids now, think the next place will be better or worse?

I saw something about the capsule hotels, and aren't they very morguelike? I mean, they lay you on a slab and slide you into a tube. The pics I saw showed a TV and a shelf, but still I think it would be very claustrophobic. I think I would go crazy if I had to stay in one of those.

And as for not being to hard on the parents, I still don't know of any valid reason for one family to have that many autistic children, an then to house them in 3'x3' cages. I think that they should definately see some jail time, as well as paying back what they recieved from the state for "care" of the children.

stevo · 09-13-2005, 08:55 AM

Stories I read say they are all adopted from other states. Neighbors say the parents "home school" the kids and have them work abnormally long hours in the yard and garden. They used the cages for punishment and sleeping. Sounds like slavery to me.

martinguerre · 09-13-2005, 09:10 AM

the words "no bedding" automatically rule out any possibility that these people (i won't say parents) intended the best interest of the children.

now, it may be an issue that these two individuals did not have the capability to understand what the best interests of the children were...which would mitigate my anger at them personally, though not at the fact that this situation has come to pass. In any event, the placing agency is responsible for their sever neglegence in not properly examining the home before placing more children, or for not do follow up visits on those kids already placed there.

i know many caring and compassionate would be parents who would love to adopt...and they're put through hoop after hoop of red tape and tests. i can only justify those delays of putting a child with loving parents if that care and caution prevented such horrors as this case.

Vincentt · 09-13-2005, 09:59 AM

Well, I want to see a picture of the cage before I start throwing stones.

But if it is true, there is no bedding or pillow, that is shitty.

And the capsule hotels, they don't slide you in, you crawl into it yourself. They are kind of small, but you can almost sit up inside. You have a small TV and a radio, lights and alarmclock all build into the wall.

I really enjoyed my stay, but I wasn't locked inside.

These people were only locking them up at night. So I assume during day time it was all normal living. I only want to see the cages before I cast stones.

Isn't it strange that they refuse to show pictures, or that each news story describes the 'cage' a little diffrent?

Lasereth · 09-13-2005, 10:46 AM

There's an odd lack of information in the article. I don't see how any 14 year old can fit in a cage that is 3x3 unless they were completely compact to where they couldn't move. I'm here measuring 3 feet in the air...it's barely enough room to fit my leg in, much less an entire teenager. I imagine one side of the cage was 3 feet and the rest was exaggerated.

Is anyone else reminded of The Shield episode where the foster parents locked their kids in the tiny rooms in the walls? This seems straight from it...really weird.

-Lasereth

tspikes51 · 09-13-2005, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vincentt

Isn't it strange that they refuse to show pictures, or that each news story describes the 'cage' a little diffrent?

THIS is what raised a flag for me. I can't fathom why releasing pictures of this would be a detriment to any investigation, since the perpetrators are already in custody. They don't have any problems showing pictures of kidnappers or prison cells of POW's, so why not show these? Some of the wording can be deceiving too, such as "the sheriff said the kids, ages 1 to 14, were found in the cages with no blankets or pillows." Maybe most of the kids in the 36"-40" cages were about three foot tall. Maybe the cages had beds in them, but as a punishment they didn't have pillows or blankets the night that they were found (I know of plenty of parents that did this). None of this can be ruled out because of the vagueness of the article.

mrklixx · 09-13-2005, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tspikes51

Some of the wording can be deceiving too, such as "the sheriff said the kids, ages 1 to 14, were found in the cages with no blankets or pillows."

Actually that wording could also be read to mean "no pillows or blankets were used to find the children"

martinguerre · 09-13-2005, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasereth

There's an odd lack of information in the article. I don't see how any 14 year old can fit in a cage that is 3x3 unless they were completely compact to where they couldn't move.

Technically, no three dimensional being could fit in a 3 by 3 space. not trying to be snarky, but the information given in the article simply doesn't suffice for determing the realism of the account. 3x3 openings could be, but might not be realistic...we don't know the depth. Certainly the 3 foot measure is only one dimension in an otherwise exaggerated figure idea is plausible as you mention.

No pictures is probably directly related to the fact that these people have not been charged. If the media asked to photograph your home for the purpose of telling the world what an unfit parent you were?

jorgelito · 09-13-2005, 04:46 PM

This story just gets a bit weirder and weirder. There are no signs of abuse, the kids seem fine (very well, even), and the parents were told by a pyschiatrist to place the kids in "cages" for sleeping.

(sorry, I am not sure how to "quote" the articles - hopefully someone can help)

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/13/cag....ap/index.html

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050913/...caged_children

Elphaba · 09-13-2005, 05:12 PM

From Jorgelito's Links

Quote:

Neighbors: Caged kids seemed normal
All 11 were well-dressed and appeared well-fed, witnesses say

Tuesday, September 13, 2005; Posted: 6:02 p.m. EDT (22:02 GMT)

WAKEMAN, Ohio (AP) -- The 11 children removed from a house where authorities say some of them slept in cages are polite, well-behaved, well-dressed and appear to have been well-fed, neighbors and authorities said Tuesday.

Their adoptive parents, Michael Gravelle, 56, and Sharen Gravelle, 57, denied in a custody hearing Monday that they abused or neglected the children. The children range in age from 1 to 14 and have conditions that include autism and fetal alcohol syndrome.

No charges had been filed as of Tuesday afternoon, and messages left with the couple's lawyer were not immediately returned.

The Gravelles have said a psychiatrist recommended they make the children sleep in the cages, Huron County Prosecutor Russell Leffler told the Norwalk Reflector. The parents said the children, including some who had mental disorders, needed to be protected from each other, according to a search warrant on file at Norwalk Municipal Court.

Leffler refused to speak with an Associated Press reporter Tuesday at his office.

Neighbors said they often saw or heard the children playing, and the family yard was littered with toys: plastic cars, tricycles, slides, a skateboard near a wooden ramp. Seven bicycles were piled in a storage shed.

"Those kids were dressed better than some of the kids who live in Cleveland. They behaved like any other kids when they were outside playing," said Jim Power, who lives across the street.

At night, authorities say, eight of the children were confined in 31/2-foot-tall, homemade wooden cages stacked in bedrooms on the second floor. The cages were painted in bright, primary colors. Some were rigged to sound an alarm downstairs when a cage door was opened.

"The sheriff and I stood there for a few minutes and just kind of stared at what we were seeing. We were speechless," county sheriff's Lt. Randy Sommers said Tuesday.

No one answered the Gravelles' door Tuesday, and the gray, four-bedroom house was dark. A pig, roosters and other animals shared the yard. The home is near Wakeman, a city of about 1,000 people 50 miles west of Cleveland.

The children have been placed with four foster families and were doing well, said Erich Dumbeck, director of the Huron County Department of Job and Family Services.

"We're still trying to figure out what happened in that home. We don't have any indication at this point that there was any abuse," Dumbeck said.

Sommers said a social worker investigating a complaint contacted authorities. Dumbeck would not discuss the complaint.

According to the search warrant, the cages had mats and the house smelled of urine. One boy said he slept in a cage for three years, Sommers said. A baby slept in a small bed, and two girls used mattresses

Deputies said they were called to the home last year when a 12-year-old boy was upset and ran away for several hours. He was found not far away.

Although the family has lived in Huron County for 10 years, the children were adopted through other counties and states, Dumbeck said. He said his agency was trying to determine how the adoptions were completed.

"I don't believe there were any caseworkers checking in with this family," he said. Reviews are ordered only when there is a complaint.

One of the children, a boy born with HIV, was adopted as an infant in 2001 through the Cuyahoga County Department of Children and Family Services, the agency's director Jim McCafferty said. For caring for him, the Gravelles received a subsidy of at least $500 a month.

The private agencies who reviewed the couple's home life before the adoption gave them "glowing reports," McCafferty said.

Leah Hunter, who lives two houses away, said she often saw the children walking down the road.

"They looked OK. They hardly ever wore shoes but I'm a country girl and for me that's normal," she said.

Gilda · 09-13-2005, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

I know that it's a rigorous process for any adoption.

Actually, it's a very rigorous process to qualify initially, but after that, the initial qualification stands for each subsequent one. It's a lot like a driver's liscense; once you've passed once, you're pretty much good for life if you don't attract too much attention by doing something egregiously wrong.

Quote:

I should imagine that it would be even more so, when adopting a "special needs" child.

Unfortunately, this isn't so. Special needs children make up a huge portion of the pool of children available for adoption, and tend to be the least desirable. There are a thousand couples eager to adopt little blonde-haired blue-eyed six-month old Susie who was given up for adoption, but minority children taken from their usually single mothers, who might have been neglected or abused (note, white kids are taken from parents, often single mothers for the same reasons, but still have a much easer time being placed/adopted than minorities) as a result of neglect, who have emotional or learning problems as a result, face a much more difficult time, so child welfare agencies are eager to find and qualify people

Quote:

Who, I want to know, allows any couple to adopt 9 such children?

Because it is quite difficult to meet the initial standards, there is a shortage of available adoptive/foster parents. When the children's welfare agencies find a family that is qualified and willing, it isn't so much a matter of allowing them to adopt. Often the families that are qualified are pressured to take more than they initially would like to relieve the pressure. A couple who is willing to take nine or eleven children is seen as a blessing, not suspicious.

For some couples, this is their job. They take in the maximum number of children they can, and live off of the subsidies paid by the government. This situation is tolerated by the government because it costs less to pay foster or adoptive parents than it does to run group homes.

Quote:

Where were the checks and balances? Why were no "red flags" raised?

Most likely they played nice to qualify, then brought in the cages as they acquired more and more children. But you're right, this is abysmal oversight. There should be regular home visits for the professional adoptive parents like these, more than the part timers with only two or three kids.

Quote:

However...I also feel that whatever so called "system" allowed this to happen needs to be blown apart at the seams.

The system is in many places badly in need of repair. We don't really know if this was an isolated incident or endemic to this particular agency. Whoever the case worker was for these kids, he or she definitely has some things to answer for.

Gilda

Phage · 09-14-2005, 03:14 AM

Ok, obviously there are some people who do horrible things to adopted children and get away with it for far too long. However, we don't really have enough information right now to specify what abuses took place.

For example, a 3x3x6 foot space would be a quite spacious sleeping area. No blankets or pillows might only be the case until nightfall; I can see the sense in having them cleaned or otherwise put away during the day. The "cages" are actually probably a pretty good idea. *GASP* I know, I know... but they are painted primary colors not just some crate stuck in a shed. If you have 11 mentally handicapped children sleeping in the same room and you give them a bedtime... good grief I don't see that working at all! Certainly a system by which you can assure that if they leave their own area you are alerted is good, otherwise you would have children wandering around all the time.

I don't want to sound like I am defending those who really do abuse children but I think it is a little sensationalist for the article to start of about how the children were "kept in cages!!1!one!" and then later on admit that they were painted pastel and apparently had no locking devices at all.

Delirious · 09-14-2005, 06:03 AM

They got paid to take this many children.. It's a common thing.. People take alot of kids get paid for it and treat them like shit~

stevo · 09-15-2005, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

Stories I read say they are all adopted from other states. Neighbors say the parents "home school" the kids and have them work abnormally long hours in the yard and garden. They used the cages for punishment and sleeping. Sounds like slavery to me.

In light of recent information and inconsistencies in media reports I would like to retract this statement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zen_tom

Apart from the sensationalism of the news story, I don't see sleeping arrangements being anything to get worked up about. They may well have had pillows and blankets, there were 11 children and 9 'cages' does that mean that the two eldest children slept in a bed? We don't know because the sensationalism of the story would be lost if that were the case.

Yes 11 children is enough for anyone to look after, and I might have some views over how sensible it is for two private individuals running what would appear to be a back-door, unregulated and state funded orphanage - but the cages I can't comment on because they've evidently been exaggerated by the distorted lens of the media.

For example, I remember my baby brother being put to bed in a cot (a bed with rails to stop him falling out at night), he used to play in a play pen - again, basically a cage. We used to have a gate at the top and bottom of the stairs to stop him being able to fall down the stairs. Cripes, we even had the child-lock switches set to lock on the back-doors of the car so that he couldn't accidentally fall out as we were driving along.

Since we kept him in such blatant captivity, should he have been taken off and put into a foster home?

I think tom is on to something here.

Obviously there are conflicting reports of the "cages" and no one has yet to provide a picture of them. I just recently heard the "cages" described as bunk-beds built into the wall. Now I don't know about you, but I've never had more than 3 feet in height between bunk beds. Another thing is that if these are cages, they are 3 dimensional. The only reports I've read only provide 2 dimensions, 40inch by 40inch, or 3ft by 3ft. It is possible that the media is leaving out the 5 ft in lenth and just reporting the height and depth of the "cages". Also, I read that only one of the "cages" had a door on it that could be locked, all of the other "cages'" doors could be freely opened. Now if I had 11 handicapped children sleeping at night, I would like to know if any of them got out of bed, so the alarm makes sense.

I also heard that among the various disabilities these children have, one of them has AIDS. And he likes to bite. To me it would make sense, for his saftey and the saftey of eveyone in the house, that this kid not be able to bite other children. I also heard a report that one of the autistic kids was violent.

This could very well be a case of news media sensationalism, and I took the bait, hook, line, and sinker. But then once I read and heard more on it, some things in the media stories just don't seem to add up. The children we well fed, well dressed, and neighbors say well-adjusted. There have yet to be any signs of abuse.

I'm sure there's some distortion going on here, I'd like to know how much.

ngdawg · 09-15-2005, 01:06 PM

The NY Daily News reported that these 'cages' were cribs with tops that latched down at night and some had alarms to warn the parents if one of the children lifted it. They were painted in bright primary colors (while they have been playing up the 40"x40" deep, they have not said how long they are-40 inches is a bit wider that a standard crib) It also reported statements by neighbors saying the children played frequently in the yard, were clean and well-fed and "better dressed than most kids in Cleveland". It went on to say that a family psychiatrist recommended this sleeping arrangement to keep them from harming each other due to the problems these kids had including autism and fetal alcohol syndrome.
No charges have yet been filed.
Link

My primary concern would be a fire with this arrangement. Not ever having to deal with severe disorders in children, I can't place judgement on this if it was indeed suggested by a professional. Bizarre, yes, but criminal, no idea....

Phage · 09-15-2005, 02:18 PM

ngdawg
I would be concerned with a fire in the sleeping place of children with disorders in any arrangement. I would suspect however that with the care put into making cribs with remote alarms, at least one fire detector was present. Outside help would certainly be required in an emergency situation and I think the crib alerts would bring help if even one of the children had a problem.

I think that the most important moral of this story is not to jump to conclusions when given incomplete and misleading information (although it being misleading of course complicates matters). There was a surprising amount of unwarranted venom displayed near the start of the thread, and the most enlightening thing I found was how close I came to falling into the same trap.

mrklixx · 09-15-2005, 02:55 PM

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/4975043/detail.html

Quote:

Meanwhile, the Gravelles released a statement through their attorney, David Sherman, about the media coverage of their children.

It reads:
"Many of the statements made concerning this matter are inaccurate or exaggerated. Clearly, there is another side to this story. The Gravelles love and miss their children and are devastated and broken-hearted with worry since their children have been ripped away from them. Their motives and intentions were good. They would never harm a child. The children love their parents and want to come home. The children have been out of control and have caused serious harm to themselves and each other. In order to prevent further injury, Mr. Gravelle constructed enclosures around their twin bunk beds to provide a secure space to keep them safe while the parents were asleep at night. These have been characterized as cages, however, that was not their function. They have no lock, latch, or provision for them. There was no cruelty, excessive restraint or risk of harm. The children were free to leave their beds anytime they wanted. There is a simple buzzer on the door, solely as a safety precaution to wake the parents if the children got out of bed at night." --David Sherman, Attorney

New York Post
WEWS reported the Gravelles said the "enclosures" were installed under the auspices of a licensed social worker who felt that the enclosures would be helpful because of behavioral problems.

During a news conference, Huron County officials described how the kids tried to escape from the cages. "We found that the rabbit wire, the wire fencing, was pulled away from the interior of the frame of the cage and ripped. It takes a lot of determination to rip that wire. It's pretty tough. It was on both ends of the cage, then there were boards nailed over the ripped areas. It looks very much as if someone inside was trying to get out," Sheriff Dick Sutherland said.

A custody hearing will take place Oct. 27.

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/4972643/detail.html

Mother Accused Dad Of Abusing Kids Found In Cages
Wife Filed For Divorce In 2001

Quote:

UPDATED: 2:08 pm EDT September 14, 2005

CLARKSFIELD TOWNSHIP, Ohio -- The mother of the caged children in Huron County had previously accused her husband of abusing the children.

The information came out in divorce proceedings in 2001, NewsChannel5 reported.

Michael Gravelle, 56, and Sharen Gravelle, 57, are accused of caging their special needs children because they said they had to protect them from each other, NewsChannel5 reported.

Court documents showed that Sharen filed for divorce, claiming domestic abuse and child abuse. Michael maintained his innocence throughout the proceedings. The couple reconciled before it was finalized.

Family Ties

NewsChannel5 spoke with the children's grandmother Wednesday. She said the family will do anything to get the kids back.

"The kids, we love them and we are trying to get them back home. Thank you," the grandmother said.

Charges
Lt. Randy Sommers with the sheriff's department was the first investigator in the house. He met Wednesday with prosecutors to decide what is next in the case.

No charges have been filed yet. By law, there is no time frame in which it has to be done.

The parents may face unlawful confinement and child endangerment charges.

Cages

Prosecutors said nine of the 11 adopted children, ages 1 to 15, were kept in cages at night with alarms that would sound if the kids tried to leave.

During a news conference, Huron County officials described how the kids tried to escape from the cages.

"We found that the rabbit wire, the wire fencing, was pulled away from the interior of the frame of the cage and ripped. It takes a lot of determination to rip that wire. It's pretty tough. It was on both ends of the cage, then there were boards nailed over the ripped areas. It looks very much as if someone inside was trying to get out," Sheriff Dick Sutherland said.

According to the search warrant, the cages were 2½ feet high and 3 feet long. It said the there was no room for the kids to stand up. The cages were built with 2-by-4 wooden planks and chicken wire.

The Gravelles haven't been to the home since the story came out. The kids are in foster homes.

One of the children said she has never slept in a bed so soft until now, NewsChannel5 reported.

Phage · 09-15-2005, 03:12 PM

And... now I am thinking that the parents are in need of some serious punishment. Once again we run up against the "this thread is worthless without pics" cliche; this is 2005, why does it take news outlets so long to get a bleedin' picture?

mrklixx · 09-15-2005, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phage

And... now I am thinking that the parents are in need of some serious punishment. Once again we run up against the "this thread is worthless without pics" cliche; this is 2005, why does it take news outlets so long to get a bleedin' picture?

Is the pic at the top of my last reply not showing up?

maleficent · 10-24-2005, 10:31 AM

followup on this story...

Father says confining children was necessary

Quote:

CLEVELAND, Ohio (AP) -- The father suspected of keeping some of 11 special-needs adopted children in cages says he confined them only to keep them safe and showed off damage to his home he says they caused.

"I felt terrible about it," Michael Gravelle told a reporter and photographer for The Plain Dealer during a tour of his home Sunday. "But it's necessary."

The children were removed from the home last month and sent to foster homes while the adoptions are investigated. The parents have not been charged, and custody hearings are scheduled in the widely publicized case.

The couple previously has not let reporters into their home, about 60 miles southwest of Cleveland near Wakeman. Michael Gravelle said he was tired of his wife, Sharen, being labeled "world's most evil mother."

The Gravelles say they were adopting children nobody else wanted, who had problems such as fetal alcohol syndrome, autism, HIV and pica, an eating disorder that causes children to eat dirt and rocks.

The enclosures where the children slept are about 6 feet in length. The doors could be opened easily and had no locks on them, but a battery-powered alarm would go off when the doors opened, the newspaper said.

They were used as sleeping quarters to prevent the children from hurting themselves with glass or eating medicines, Michael Gravelle said. Every cupboard and shelf was covered with chicken wire for the same reason, he said.

"If you can call these cages, take me to jail right now," Michael Gravelle said. "Right now."

The couple pointed out holes where they said the children had kicked in the walls and gouges in the drywall from their fingernails. Baseboards were soaked with urine stains, and the walls still show marks where the children had smeared their feces.

"We live with this smell," said Sharen Gravelle, who at times broke down in tears. "We love these children."

Prosecutor Russ Leffler alleges that the Gravelles were adopting the children for financial gain. Records show they received $4,265 monthly in adoption subsidies and disability payments when they had eight children in 2001.

"You could not pay me enough to do the things we had to do," Michael Gravelle said. "There is nothing easy about raising these children. We did not abuse them. That's the truth."

The couple's lawer, David Sherman, was not aware of Sunday's tour, the newspaper said.

that's a heck of a lot of money they received every month...

filtherton · 10-24-2005, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

that's a heck of a lot of money they received every month...

It ends up being $51,180 a year, which isn't much when placed in the context of a 10 person family. It's probably living, but i doubt it's living well.

jorgelito · 10-24-2005, 02:54 PM

I disagree: That is not a lot of money a month for all those kids. But in anycase, I don't understand why they are getting money in the first place. Didn't they adopt those kids? My friend has a "special needs" sister (she's retarded) but they don't get money from the government.

I think the story is starting to become clearer and clearer. According to what we know so far, I don't think the parents are bad here. Looks like a jumpy press and sensationalist media instead.

Still, it is strange that there isn't a picture to go with the story. But at least we're getting some more details.

09-13-2005, 02:01 AM	#1 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Why We Have Prisons No.....not for the Kids.....for these parents: http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local/4961890/detail.html Sheriff: 9 Kids Kept Locked In Cages Kids Ages 1 To 14 UPDATED: 9:25 pm EDT September 12, 2005 WAKEMAN, Ohio -- Nine children were found locked in cages in their home in Wakeman in Huron County Monday, NewsChannel5 reported. The sheriff said the kids, ages 1 to 14, were found in the cages with no blankets or pillows. The wooden cages, estimated to be about 3 foot by 3 foot, were built into the walls. Officials are not releasing the photos of the cages. The children were taken to Fisher-Titus Medical Center. They are listed in good condition. Officials said all the children were adopted children. Sharon and Mike Gravelle, the parents, have not been arrested. They had 11 children in all. Officials said the parents thought they were doing what was best for the children. "Basically, the parents thought they were providing for the protection of the children from themselves and from each other," said Huron County's Lt. Randy Sommers. "They thought it was circumstances that warranted the cages at night." Officials added that the parents believed that because the children were autistic they should be kept in the cages for protection from each other. According to officials, the cages had alarms that would go off if the children tried to escape.

09-13-2005, 02:11 AM	#2 (permalink)
amonkie Drifting Administrator Location: Windy City	Autism is such a severely misunderstood condition, and it is apparent this family has not been informed that caging children is not only inhumane, but thinking it a neccessity should cry out about a deeper problem. While I applaud those who make the choice to adopt, eleven children is a lot for any two parents. Autistic children add an entirely new twist to the mix. As someone who has spent extensive time with autistic kids, they require much one on one attention. For them to have more than one or two autistic children, I wonder at the state agency that thought it was in the children's best interest to place so many of them in the same household. __________________ Calling from deep in the heart, from where the eyes can't see and the ears can't hear, from where the mountain trails end and only love can go... ~~~ Three Rivers Hare Krishna

09-13-2005, 02:17 AM	#3 (permalink)
jwoody Shackle Me Not Location: Newcastle - England.	I'm not going to jump to the same conclusion. The children were in good condition and the parents have not been arrested. It's a shocking headline but there really isn't any meat in the story. For all we know, these kids may have been trying to kill each other every night. It is possible that cages were in their best interest. __________________ .

09-13-2005, 02:18 AM	#4 (permalink)
hulk C'mon, just blow it. Location: Perth, Australia	Why the hell were they allowed to adopt eleven kids without anyone even inspecting the premesis? 3x3' cages are hardy humane. __________________ "'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex." -- From an IGN game review.

09-13-2005, 02:28 AM	#5 (permalink)
kramus loving the curves Location: my Lady's manor	I am with Amonkie - how does an agency in charge of something as important as special needs children allow this? Where is the oversight? There will be major changes of course. As for the "parents", I am at a complete loss. But I feel sickened. __________________ And now to disengage the clutch of the forebrain ... I'm going with this - if you like artwork visit http://markfineart.ca

09-13-2005, 02:30 AM	#6 (permalink)
jwoody Shackle Me Not Location: Newcastle - England.	The police have not released images of the cages.... ...so here's a picture of a dog kennel. __________________ .

09-13-2005, 03:41 AM	#7 (permalink)
Vincentt Addict Location: Tokyo, Japan	I dunno, I found capsule hotels very relaxing. This was just at night? __________________ .

09-13-2005, 06:08 AM	#10 (permalink)
MooseMan3000 wouldn't mind being a ninja. Location: Maine, the Other White State.	-11 kids in 9 cages. -None of the cages are large enough for a full grown person to lay down in (stretched out). -None of the cages had blankets or pillows. -There were alarms that sounded when the cage doors opened. Arguing that the cages may have been in the kids best interest is just plain ridiculous. The fault lies with both the "parents" and the adoption agency. Both of them need to be severely worked over. One of them with a baseball bat, one of them with some new leadership and rules. I'll let you decide which is which.

09-13-2005, 06:31 AM	#11 (permalink)
alansmithee Junkie	There has to be more to this story. With the information given, I just can't see how the parents aren't locked up. And also, how were these peole allowed to have the care of 11 children, some of which were autistic? This is really baffling.

09-13-2005, 06:48 AM	#12 (permalink)
Kostya Little known... Location: Brisbane, Australia	Regardless of any kind of mitigating circumstances, I can conceive of say, <i>bigger</i> cages for instance. More to the point, I find it difficult to imagine reasons why anyone would adopt eleven autistic apparently violent children without even eleven cages. At the very least, these people have failed to provide an acceptable environment for these children, if indeed they are not guilty of deliberate abuse.

09-13-2005, 06:58 AM	#13 (permalink)
zen_tom Guest	Apart from the sensationalism of the news story, I don't see sleeping arrangements being anything to get worked up about. They may well have had pillows and blankets, there were 11 children and 9 'cages' does that mean that the two eldest children slept in a bed? We don't know because the sensationalism of the story would be lost if that were the case. Yes 11 children is enough for anyone to look after, and I might have some views over how sensible it is for two private individuals running what would appear to be a back-door, unregulated and state funded orphanage - but the cages I can't comment on because they've evidently been exaggerated by the distorted lens of the media. For example, I remember my baby brother being put to bed in a cot (a bed with rails to stop him falling out at night), he used to play in a play pen - again, basically a cage. We used to have a gate at the top and bottom of the stairs to stop him being able to fall down the stairs. Cripes, we even had the child-lock switches set to lock on the back-doors of the car so that he couldn't accidentally fall out as we were driving along. Since we kept him in such blatant captivity, should he have been taken off and put into a foster home?

09-13-2005, 07:00 AM	#14 (permalink)
ophelia783 Insane Location: West Virginia	There's definitly something going onn behind this story...... First off, why weren't home visits done to see what conditions these kids were? Secondly, Why would you adopt not just 1, but 11 autistic kids if you didn't know how to deal with them? Thirdly, why weren't the parents arrested? I always find that the key question in any child abuse case....It's kinda like how they charged and tried Michael Jackson for sexual abuse, but never took aways his kids. __________________ ~~ He with a sharp tongue slits his own throat ~~

09-13-2005, 07:03 AM	#15 (permalink)
flat5 Very Insignificant Pawn Location: Amsterdam, NL	Kostya, nine cages has a simitre. The room just would not look right with eleven cages. Most of the thoughts expressed here are obvious. We need more details. Last edited by flat5; 09-13-2005 at 07:08 AM..

09-13-2005, 08:05 AM	#17 (permalink)
mrklixx President Rick Location: location location	Could've been worse. __________________ This post is content. If you don't like it then you are not content. Or perhaps just incontinent. This is not a link - Do not click here I hate animated avatars.

09-13-2005, 08:18 AM	#18 (permalink)
Vincentt Addict Location: Tokyo, Japan	I dunno guys, when I think of kids, I always want to lock them in cages. Now, I'll give them blankets and pillows, but I still fully intend on putting my kids in cages. Kids run around all crazy at night, you tell them to lay down and sometimes they get up and run around keeping the other kids awake.. maybe they all join in. I don't know, I see how the thought process comes about. After sleeping in that capsule hotel I have been thinking about having those boths installed in my home.. so relaxing to be away from everything 100% dark and great for space. I think until we see more info, you shouldn't be so hard on the parents.. Where are the kids now, think the next place will be better or worse? __________________ .

09-13-2005, 08:55 AM	#20 (permalink)
stevo Rail Baron Location: Tallyfla	Stories I read say they are all adopted from other states. Neighbors say the parents "home school" the kids and have them work abnormally long hours in the yard and garden. They used the cages for punishment and sleeping. Sounds like slavery to me. __________________ "If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

09-13-2005, 09:10 AM	#21 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	the words "no bedding" automatically rule out any possibility that these people (i won't say parents) intended the best interest of the children. now, it may be an issue that these two individuals did not have the capability to understand what the best interests of the children were...which would mitigate my anger at them personally, though not at the fact that this situation has come to pass. In any event, the placing agency is responsible for their sever neglegence in not properly examining the home before placing more children, or for not do follow up visits on those kids already placed there. i know many caring and compassionate would be parents who would love to adopt...and they're put through hoop after hoop of red tape and tests. i can only justify those delays of putting a child with loving parents if that care and caution prevented such horrors as this case. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

09-13-2005, 09:59 AM	#22 (permalink)
Vincentt Addict Location: Tokyo, Japan	Well, I want to see a picture of the cage before I start throwing stones. But if it is true, there is no bedding or pillow, that is shitty. And the capsule hotels, they don't slide you in, you crawl into it yourself. They are kind of small, but you can almost sit up inside. You have a small TV and a radio, lights and alarmclock all build into the wall. I really enjoyed my stay, but I wasn't locked inside. These people were only locking them up at night. So I assume during day time it was all normal living. I only want to see the cages before I cast stones. Isn't it strange that they refuse to show pictures, or that each news story describes the 'cage' a little diffrent? __________________ .

09-13-2005, 10:46 AM	#23 (permalink)
Lasereth Knight of the Old Republic Location: Winston-Salem, NC	There's an odd lack of information in the article. I don't see how any 14 year old can fit in a cage that is 3x3 unless they were completely compact to where they couldn't move. I'm here measuring 3 feet in the air...it's barely enough room to fit my leg in, much less an entire teenager. I imagine one side of the cage was 3 feet and the rest was exaggerated. Is anyone else reminded of The Shield episode where the foster parents locked their kids in the tiny rooms in the walls? This seems straight from it...really weird. -Lasereth __________________ "A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

09-13-2005, 04:46 PM	#27 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	This story just gets a bit weirder and weirder. There are no signs of abuse, the kids seem fine (very well, even), and the parents were told by a pyschiatrist to place the kids in "cages" for sleeping. (sorry, I am not sure how to "quote" the articles - hopefully someone can help) http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/13/cag....ap/index.html http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050913/...caged_children __________________ "The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter

09-14-2005, 03:14 AM	#30 (permalink)
Phage Insane	Ok, obviously there are some people who do horrible things to adopted children and get away with it for far too long. However, we don't really have enough information right now to specify what abuses took place. For example, a 3x3x6 foot space would be a quite spacious sleeping area. No blankets or pillows might only be the case until nightfall; I can see the sense in having them cleaned or otherwise put away during the day. The "cages" are actually probably a pretty good idea. GASP I know, I know... but they are painted primary colors not just some crate stuck in a shed. If you have 11 mentally handicapped children sleeping in the same room and you give them a bedtime... good grief I don't see that working at all! Certainly a system by which you can assure that if they leave their own area you are alerted is good, otherwise you would have children wandering around all the time. I don't want to sound like I am defending those who really do abuse children but I think it is a little sensationalist for the article to start of about how the children were "kept in cages!!1!one!" and then later on admit that they were painted pastel and apparently had no locking devices at all.

09-14-2005, 06:03 AM	#31 (permalink)
Delirious Crazy Location: Queens, NY	They got paid to take this many children.. It's a common thing.. People take alot of kids get paid for it and treat them like shit~

09-15-2005, 01:06 PM	#33 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	The NY Daily News reported that these 'cages' were cribs with tops that latched down at night and some had alarms to warn the parents if one of the children lifted it. They were painted in bright primary colors (while they have been playing up the 40"x40" deep, they have not said how long they are-40 inches is a bit wider that a standard crib) It also reported statements by neighbors saying the children played frequently in the yard, were clean and well-fed and "better dressed than most kids in Cleveland". It went on to say that a family psychiatrist recommended this sleeping arrangement to keep them from harming each other due to the problems these kids had including autism and fetal alcohol syndrome. No charges have yet been filed. Link My primary concern would be a fire with this arrangement. Not ever having to deal with severe disorders in children, I can't place judgement on this if it was indeed suggested by a professional. Bizarre, yes, but criminal, no idea.... __________________ Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

09-15-2005, 02:18 PM	#34 (permalink)
Phage Insane	ngdawg I would be concerned with a fire in the sleeping place of children with disorders in any arrangement. I would suspect however that with the care put into making cribs with remote alarms, at least one fire detector was present. Outside help would certainly be required in an emergency situation and I think the crib alerts would bring help if even one of the children had a problem. I think that the most important moral of this story is not to jump to conclusions when given incomplete and misleading information (although it being misleading of course complicates matters). There was a surprising amount of unwarranted venom displayed near the start of the thread, and the most enlightening thing I found was how close I came to falling into the same trap.

09-15-2005, 03:12 PM	#36 (permalink)
Phage Insane	And... now I am thinking that the parents are in need of some serious punishment. Once again we run up against the "this thread is worthless without pics" cliche; this is 2005, why does it take news outlets so long to get a bleedin' picture?

10-24-2005, 02:54 PM	#40 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	I disagree: That is not a lot of money a month for all those kids. But in anycase, I don't understand why they are getting money in the first place. Didn't they adopt those kids? My friend has a "special needs" sister (she's retarded) but they don't get money from the government. I think the story is starting to become clearer and clearer. According to what we know so far, I don't think the parents are bad here. Looks like a jumpy press and sensationalist media instead. Still, it is strange that there isn't a picture to go with the story. But at least we're getting some more details.