Let's take care of our own - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

clavus · 08-30-2005, 09:30 PM

Given that we just lost a major city, I think we need to immediately cease foreign aid and use the money to help out the poeple of New Orleans.

Seriously, I understand that the aid is sorely needed elsewhere, but we have an honest to god disaster on our hands an we are broke as fuck.

To give the US taxpayers' money to people in foreign nations while the taxpayers themselves are left homeless...it seems...well...anti-american.

WE are the people in need now. And somehow, I don't think we can expect a tsunami of support from outside.

Arroe · 08-30-2005, 10:33 PM

I agree. New Orlean's is destroyed and estimates are saying it's 25 billion dollars in damages. Thousands of families' homes are destroyed and underwater. Imagine everything in your home destroyed. These people need all the help they can get...

Vincentt · 08-31-2005, 12:23 AM

[Gotta take this statement back]

I really want all the people to get all the aid they need. I hope the people in charge can make it happen.

Daniel_ · 08-31-2005, 12:56 AM

Not to cause an argument but aren't there shitloads of poor and homeless in the US already?

Why does them all being in the same place make the disaster worse? I often wonder that after a crisis.

More people die on American roads every month than died in the hurricane - but nobody is setting up a government task force on road death.

You want the government to save lives and help people - that's very laudable, and I applaud you in expressing it.

I'm really sorry if this came across as a rant against you - it isn't meant to; I'm just constantly astonished that it takes hundreds of deaths in one place to shift focus.

jorgelito · 08-31-2005, 01:27 AM

It also depends on WHERE those deaths are occuring or WHO the deaths are. No one gives a shit (pardon my language) about the millions of deaths in Africa. I also remember when the Tsunami hit last year, a lot of TFP'rs shrugged it off. I am curious as to what they think now about this hurricane. The body count is still "only" 80 compared with 200,000 (can't remember precise number) in the tsunami but people are already freaking out about how what a terrible disaster this is and what a horrible loss of life.

I don't know, just putting some perspective on it....

Personally I think it's a miracle that so many people survived. I think it's a testament to our country (the USA). Could you imagine a hurricane (or tsunami or typhoon or whatever) hitting elsewhere? I mean they are still cleaning up after the tsunami. Yes the looting sucks (it's really embarrassing) but all in all, I though the system worked pretty well. That 'cane was HUGE. But yet we only lost 80 people (so far I know, I know). Even in a modern country like Japan, I bet the body count and devastation would have been way worse.

I think we'll be ok. We'll probably bounce back better. No need to panic (yet).

lurkette · 08-31-2005, 07:09 AM

I appreciate the sentiment, and I do think we ought to provide for those in New Orleans and the gulf coast who will need assistance getting back on their feet after the disaster.

However, I don't think it's necessary to set up an "us vs. them" mentality in order to take care of "our own" and also take care of people in other nations who are just as much in need of the very basic necessities: food, clean water, shelter. It costs a lot less per person to provide these things in many developing nations, and many of the Americans displaced by the storm have other resources at hand: insurance, family, churches and other charities.

I don't think geography or frankly arbitrary geopolitical boundaries ought to define our capacity for compassion and generosity.

BigBen · 08-31-2005, 07:26 AM

That is actually a good idea, Clavus. I think that in a time of need, people should look inward and find the strength and courage to help themselves. I applaud the hard work performed by dedicated people.

Wait a minute... What if cutting off foreign aid causes animosity from countries who depend on it?

What if they then start to chant "Death to America"?

What if said country sends terrorists to blow shit up, and you guys then proceed to divert international aid funding towards domestic causes?

Uh oh.

I think I will have to change my original statement.

clavus · 08-31-2005, 07:30 AM

Well, I'm pretty selfish and tribal. But it's not a question of us VS them. Its a simple matter of allocation of resources. We have a big problem here, at home. Hundreds of thousands of my tribe are homeless. My country's infrastructure is severly damaged. And we don't have money to fix this stuff.

Let's take the money we were using to fix some other tribe's problems and use it to fix our own. Once we get back on our feet, I'm sure we can go back to our role as the world's biggest charity.

avhg1 · 08-31-2005, 07:37 AM

I agree completely. Don't starve yourself to death by giving all your food to others. It doesn't do any good for anyone if charity is done in a self destructive manner. When necessary, get yourself back together, so that you can help others. It does sound selfish, but the US is often taken for granted on the charity and support we provide other nations, so we should concentrate on fixing our own problems first and for once let other nations fix themselves.

Xell101 · 08-31-2005, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_

there shitloads of poor and homeless in the US already?

It generally seems to be from the attitude that if you're homeless it's becuase you've failed at capatalism. There are lots of shelters that take in the homeless and get them work, there are lots of 'things' you can do, but unless you're one lucky hobo odds are it's going to be absurdly difficult to get back on your feet, and there are lots who dismissively instruct them to get a job, as though they're one can of beans and a furiously executed hobo dance away from victory. If a hurricane basically comes in and ruins an entire city's shit it's a tragedy, becuase the devestation hasn't come you failing at life. (lol!) That's how I take it, although I agree, we've got oodles of homeless and poor people and even more flooding across the border, we're amassing a humorously absurd amount of debt and we're still just tossing money at other countries? Eh? We've got problems here, it's like tossing cash at the neighbors while several of your many kids hasn't eaten yet.

BigBen · 08-31-2005, 08:13 AM

Like John Lennon, I am imagining life where there was no rich, no poor, no possessions, nothing to distinguish you from your neighbour.

I am pretty sure that Hurricane Katrina is not what he was thinking about. I was thinking that there would be something more idealistic, more utopic.

Hey, do you think there is a smiley that accurately portrays the grief of having all your shit blow away, while you stand waist-deep in festering sewer water?

--> Oh, look, my shit is blowing round and round.

--> those aren't question marks over my head, they are little stink lines.

--> Ouch, I got a stick blown in my eye, but I'm smiling because my neighbor is waaaay worse off.

Okay, maybe I am being insensitive by being humourous in a time like this, but what else am I going to do... make faces like this? -->

lurkette · 08-31-2005, 08:17 AM

The impulse to tribalism is pretty much universal and understandable. But looking at it in that limited way may be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

If you want to get pragmatic and not idealistic about it, where is our money going to advance our interests with the most effectiveness? Aid to foreign nations, WHEN USED EFFECTIVELY (i.e., not poured into the pockets of a Mugabe or used ostensibly to fund the Taliban's feeble anti-opium efforts), creates educated, well-fed, stable populations that are more amenable to democratic values and, one might argue, capitalist market structures. This creates large populations of people who 1. want to buy our stuff or work for our companies, and 2. don't want to fly planes full of fuel into our major population centers.

If you want to look at it from a humanitarian perspective, there are people who are in MORE NEED in other nations than the ones affected by this hurricane. We already have emergency and disaster funds in place to take care of situations like this, without rescinding foreign aid, which is a pittance of our national budget. (Actually, Bush just cut emergency funding in part in order to fund his tax cut to people who don't need any help at all. /liberal snark) And looking at absolute and relative need, there are already structures in place in this country to meet the very basic needs - food, clean water, shelter, education, medical care - of those who need it. The same can not be said of many of the nations who are recipients of our aid.

I just think it's a rather short-sighted knee-jerk reaction to demand that we "take care of our own" first. Taking care of others is, sometimes, taking care of our own, just not in the same touchy-feely, ready-for-tv-news, make-you-feel-good-for-still-having-a-home way.

Threadjack of the moment: Where's your charitable impulse when the topic is welfare http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=94005 or universal health care? Why is it suddenly okay to help masses of the homeless because a hurricane wiped out their house and they didn't have flood insurance, and not okay to help the same number of widely dispersed homeless because, e.g., they got sick and lost their job and didn't have savings accounts?

08-31-2005, 08:49 AM

Considering the practicalities of the matter, it would be far more expensive and *extremely* wasteful to suddenly wind everything down that's going on around the world, buying expensive air tickets to fly the overseas workers back home again, having to make big payoffs in legal costs for unkept promises and commitments and plenty of other expensive legal and moral obligation dodging in order to save some money to spend right now at home.

It would very likely take a full six months (at least) to fully withdraw from the rest of the world, at which point, losses in trade (yes, aid actually generates revenue) and public and political concerns over America's knee-jerk reactions to events would cause uncertainty, resulting in the dollar being worth even less than it is now, combined with a pulling out of investment from abroad, resulting in massive job losses, higher taxes, gas prices and eventually hyper inflation.

krwlz · 08-31-2005, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_

You want the government to save lives and help people - that's very laudable, and I applaud you in expressing it.

Am I the only one that thinks this is absolutly NOT what the government is in place for? To keep general order, yes, but...

That said, if the money is going to be spent, yes it should be spent here at home before it should be spent elsewhere.

But then how else would we co-erce third world countries to adopt our policies!?

highthief · 08-31-2005, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lurkette

I appreciate the sentiment, and I do think we ought to provide for those in New Orleans and the gulf coast who will need assistance getting back on their feet after the disaster.

However, I don't think it's necessary to set up an "us vs. them" mentality in order to take care of "our own" and also take care of people in other nations who are just as much in need of the very basic necessities: food, clean water, shelter. It costs a lot less per person to provide these things in many developing nations, and many of the Americans displaced by the storm have other resources at hand: insurance, family, churches and other charities.

I don't think geography or frankly arbitrary geopolitical boundaries ought to define our capacity for compassion and generosity.

I agree with this. Now, I'm not in the US, so maybe that colours my perception, but when talking about places like the US, Canada, France, Australia - we're the nations that can afford to do both.

tspikes51 · 08-31-2005, 09:10 PM

In the words of Terrance and Phillip: "I agree wholefartedly."

When an entity is too busy looking out for other entites to take care of its own shit, they need to take a serious look at its priorities. It's that simple folks.

LewisCouch · 08-31-2005, 11:00 PM

What amazes me is how little money is allocated to FEMA and Homeland Security in the current Federal budget. Certainly, there must be some actuary that has submitted reasonable analyses of a disaster of this magnitude. Believing this, one must assume that the Feds are aware of such numbers and would budget appropriately; however, the current budget for FEMA can only be described as dismal and inadequate at best. Rather than eliminate our international aid programs that IMHO return far more than is invested and ultimately prove to be wise investments, perhaps a more realistic and practical budget should be formulated.

How about reducing the budget of the Defense agency (17%, $402B) to begin with? Here's a good one: the current budget for the continuing devlopment of the V22 (Osprey) is $360 million dollars. Does anyone know how many of these wonder birds are flying since it first took flight in 1989? not to mention any number of pricey "pet" projects that receive funding. How about taking a hard look at NASA? This agencies performance has been less than stellar, and it's budget is $16 billion this year; almost enough to rebuild New Orleans, assuming the current estimates are high.

Trim the fat off the damn budget. The American people deserve better and should demand so.

maskedrider · 08-31-2005, 11:23 PM

The media coverage of the disaster reduces the victims to either pathetic or violent cartoons. Judging from the coverage, you'd think all the white folk left and only black people were left behind. What happened to fair, balanced, and "deep" reporting?

highthief · 09-01-2005, 03:35 AM

well, I think about 90% of the people left behind/who stayed behind are black, so why wouldn't you see those images?

lurkette · 09-01-2005, 05:54 AM

New Orleans is about 68% black to start with, so you're going to see more black people than white people no matter what. (http://neworleans.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm)

maximusveritas · 09-01-2005, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LewisCouch

What amazes me is how little money is allocated to FEMA and Homeland Security in the current Federal budget. Certainly, there must be some actuary that has submitted reasonable analyses of a disaster of this magnitude. Believing this, one must assume that the Feds are aware of such numbers and would budget appropriately; however, the current budget for FEMA can only be described as dismal and inadequate at best. Rather than eliminate our international aid programs that IMHO return far more than is invested and ultimately prove to be wise investments, perhaps a more realistic and practical budget should be formulated.

How about reducing the budget of the Defense agency (17%, $402B) to begin with? Here's a good one: the current budget for the continuing devlopment of the V22 (Osprey) is $360 million dollars. Does anyone know how many of these wonder birds are flying since it first took flight in 1989? not to mention any number of pricey "pet" projects that receive funding. How about taking a hard look at NASA? This agencies performance has been less than stellar, and it's budget is $16 billion this year; almost enough to rebuild New Orleans, assuming the current estimates are high.

Trim the fat off the damn budget. The American people deserve better and should demand so.

Very well said.

Right now, I think everyone is just focusing on helping these people in need, but eventually we are going to have to take a long hard look at how the government screwed this up. Heads might have to roll.

But I wouldn't mind cutting our foreign aid to certain places, especially to that mess called Iraq. Our National Guard is over there fighting and dying to give "freedom" to the Iraqis when they should be over here helping out our own folks who are dying as I type.

It's shameful, but that just means we have had to do more as American citizens to help these people out. From what I've seen, that is exactly what has happened. People are saying "screw the government, we have to do this on our own."

Redlemon · 09-01-2005, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LewisCouch

What amazes me is how little money is allocated to FEMA and Homeland Security in the current Federal budget.

Have you read Destroying FEMA, from today's Washington Post:

Quote:

By Eric Holdeman

SEATTLE -- In the days to come, as the nation and the people along the Gulf Coast work to cope with the disastrous aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, we will be reminded anew, how important it is to have a federal agency capable of dealing with natural catastrophes of this sort. This is an immense human tragedy, one that will work hardship on millions of people. It is beyond the capabilities of state and local government to deal with. It requires a national response.

Which makes it all the more difficult to understand why, at this moment, the country's premier agency for dealing with such events -- FEMA -- is being, in effect, systematically downgraded and all but dismantled by the Department of Homeland Security.
... (follow above link to read the rest)

Yakk · 09-01-2005, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clavus

WE are the people in need now. And somehow, I don't think we can expect a tsunami of support from outside.

Clavus, talk to your god damn politicians. Your senator, your member of your house.

Tell them to let in help that is offered.

Charlatan · 09-01-2005, 11:48 AM

I had heard that the Feds offered to send teams down to help... No Reply.

Guess the US, like India during the Tsunami, likes to take care of their own.

Yakk · 09-01-2005, 12:15 PM

Chavez

Offers of aid from Russia, Japan, Canada, France, Honduras, Germany, Venezuela, Jamaica, Australia, the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Greece, Hungary, Columbia, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Mexico, China, South Korea, Isreal, the United Arab Emirates, NATO, the Organization of American States.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bush

"I'm not expecting much from foreign nations because we hadn't asked for it. I do expect a lot of sympathy and perhaps some will send cash dollars. But this country's going to rise up and take care of it."

Quote:

However, in Moscow, a Russian official said the U.S. Federal Emergency Management Agency had rejected a Russian offer to dispatch rescue teams and other aid.

Quote:

And somehow, I don't think we can expect a tsunami of support from outside.

.

clavus · 09-01-2005, 12:24 PM

[QUOTE=Yakk]Clavus, talk to your god damn politicians. Your senator, your member of your house.
[/url]

I did that first thing. I even sent a fax to George W (Don't worry, I used small, simple words). I would encourage all US citizens to contact their elected leaders.

Yakk · 09-02-2005, 05:56 AM

I wrote my Member of Parliament. The response is below:

Quote:

Dear Mr. [Yakk],

The devastation brought to the southern United States has been significant and we have extended our sincerest condolences to the families of the victims of this crisis.

The Government of Canada has contacted US officials to offer assistance including the DART team that is on stand-by should it be required. As of yet, no request has been made by the US Government for Canadian assistance.

Assistance by federal departments and provincial and territorial governments is being coordinated through Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada. The Deputy Prime Minister, Anne McLellan, contacted U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff on Monday and advised him that Canada stands ready to provide assistance if needed.

Following on our offer, the United States Department of Health and Human Services today asked for information on the kind of emergency assistance that our Public Health Agency could provide, and to which our officials are now responding.

In addition, we continue to work with our partners in provincial and territorial governments to identify what goods and services we could provide to our American neighbours, should they request our assistance.

The United States has a long and proud history of assisting other countries in times of crisis, and we now stand ready to help them in their time of need.

Canadians wishing to provide assistance to those suffering from the devastation brought by Hurricane Katrina are encouraged to make financial contributions through the Canadian Red Cross at 1-800-418-1111 or online at www.redcross.ca.

Private citizens are encouraged to make donations of cash, rather than goods, as financial contributions allow professional relief organizations to purchase exactly what is most urgently needed by disaster victims.

Citizens are requested not to report to affected areas to provide assistance.
Canadians with good reason to believe that Canadian friends or relatives are in the affected areas may contact Foreign Affairs Canada's Emergency Operations Centre at 1-800-267-6788, or in Ottawa at (613) 944-6788.

Sincerely,
Hon. Andrew Telegdi, P.C., M.P.

Stompy · 09-02-2005, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clavus

I even sent a fax to George W (Don't worry, I used small, simple words).

Haha, you'd have to assume he

1. knows what a fax is
2. knows how to read

..but in all seriousness, those faxes are probably tossed out. I highly doubt anyone reads em.

alansmithee · 09-02-2005, 06:54 AM

I think we really need to look at diverting some US aid as a whole toward domestic projects (not just for the hurricane relief efforts, but to help schools, domestic economic growth, etc.) so I agree with the OP wholeheartedly.

As for foreign aid, i'm personally glad that we are (currently) refusing aid from other countries. It would be extremely shameful if America, supposedly the most powerful and wealthyest country in the world, was reduced to begging for outside help. To me, that would be the biggest tragedy.

Charlatan · 09-02-2005, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee

I think we really need to look at diverting some US aid as a whole toward domestic projects (not just for the hurricane relief efforts, but to help schools, domestic economic growth, etc.) so I agree with the OP wholeheartedly.

As for foreign aid, i'm personally glad that we are (currently) refusing aid from other countries. It would be extremely shameful if America, supposedly the most powerful and wealthyest country in the world, was reduced to begging for outside help. To me, that would be the biggest tragedy.

Considering the amount spent on foreign aid (why make a small number smaller) why not just spend less on the mililtary and more on "schools, domestic economic growth, etc."

Just spend it wiser.

StanT · 09-02-2005, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee

As for foreign aid, i'm personally glad that we are (currently) refusing aid from other countries. It would be extremely shameful if America, supposedly the most powerful and wealthyest country in the world, was reduced to begging for outside help. To me, that would be the biggest tragedy.

I'm going to call bullshit on this one.

When the Russian Navy had a submarine trapped under water, both the US and Great Britain rushed highly specialized equipment and crews to assist. Putin and the Russian government learned from the Kursk disaster. No country in the world, including the US, can maintain emergency equipment and crews to cover every conceivable disaster.

We've been offered and declined the best urban search and rescue team in the world from Vancouver. Why? National pride? I'm sorry, but we ought to be saving lives, not saving face.

alansmithee · 09-02-2005, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Considering the amount spent on foreign aid (why make a small number smaller) why not just spend less on the mililtary and more on "schools, domestic economic growth, etc."

Just spend it wiser.

I'd be for that as well, but since America's greatest claim to fame nowadays is primarily it's military, I'm reluctant to cut back on that. I'd cut back on military and foreign aid spending toward more domestic improvements.

Yakk · 09-02-2005, 09:30 AM

I have heard (low reliability) that the heavy urban rescue team from Vancouver is on the ground in the USA now.

smackson · 09-02-2005, 12:39 PM

I think we should bring our troops home from Iraq. If we had those troops home with our military equipment like helicopters, we would have A LOT more available troops for Search and Rescue and they could have saved a few lives.

Instead they are at war looking for..... well I guess the weapons that we were originally looking for.

meembo · 09-02-2005, 06:49 PM

I think the offers of aid from third world countries is notable. Clinton couldn't help but smile when he mentioned offers of third world aid to the Gulf Coast during the press conference with Bush I and II, including offers of aid from nations affected by the tsunami in December.

Seer666 · 09-03-2005, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xell101

It generally seems to be from the attitude that if you're homeless it's becuase you've failed at capatalism. There are lots of shelters that take in the homeless and get them work, there are lots of 'things' you can do, but unless you're one lucky hobo odds are it's going to be absurdly difficult to get back on your feet, and there are lots who dismissively instruct them to get a job, as though they're one can of beans and a furiously executed hobo dance away from victory. If a hurricane basically comes in and ruins an entire city's shit it's a tragedy, becuase the devestation hasn't come you failing at life. (lol!) That's how I take it, although I agree, we've got oodles of homeless and poor people and even more flooding across the border, we're amassing a humorously absurd amount of debt and we're still just tossing money at other countries? Eh? We've got problems here, it's like tossing cash at the neighbors while several of your many kids hasn't eaten yet.

Just a bit of a tangent....

As someone who WAS a homeless guy for a while, yes, you can pick your own ass up. It is easier for some then others, but it can be done. Hell, if nothing else the army is hurting for poeple, and they will take just about anyone. I have little to no sympathy for most homeless. A lot of them are there because they won't get off their ass and do soemthign about their lifes, and/or they are fucking drunks and druggies. Now, before anyone starts blasting, yes I know that not all of them are. Like I said, I was one. The people in NO, however, do not fall into the "lazy sake of shit" catigory. There are some of them there, yes, but most of these people had jobs, homes, and families. They were hard working poeple, who by means WAY beyond their control, lost everything. That is what makes this a disater. Most of these are good poeple forced to live in an extream situation. As for the looting, If I was there, you bet your ass I would be kicking in stor windows to get at the food. Most stores are insured, my stomache isn't. As for the foreign aid, I think most of it should be cut off anyway. Some of theses places we are sending aid to are either A: chantin "death to America" in the streets every other day, or B: Taking htat money and useing it to fund the goverment, and not the poor that it was meant for. If you hate us so much you publicly wish bad thigns to happen to us, then fuck you, have a nice day, we are taking our money and leaveing. If you are not useing the money for what it was meant for, then fuck you, have a nice day, we are taking our money and leaveing. We should use that money to fix the problems here, and if somoene get's to uppity, we should use that money to erase them from the planet so we can go back to fixin the problems here in peace.

/tangent

08-30-2005, 09:30 PM	#1 (permalink)
clavus pow! Location: NorCal	Let's take care of our own Given that we just lost a major city, I think we need to immediately cease foreign aid and use the money to help out the poeple of New Orleans. Seriously, I understand that the aid is sorely needed elsewhere, but we have an honest to god disaster on our hands an we are broke as fuck. To give the US taxpayers' money to people in foreign nations while the taxpayers themselves are left homeless...it seems...well...anti-american. WE are the people in need now. And somehow, I don't think we can expect a tsunami of support from outside. __________________ Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.

08-31-2005, 12:23 AM	#3 (permalink)
Vincentt Addict Location: Tokyo, Japan	[Gotta take this statement back] I really want all the people to get all the aid they need. I hope the people in charge can make it happen. __________________ . Last edited by Vincentt; 08-31-2005 at 12:26 AM..

08-31-2005, 12:56 AM	#4 (permalink)
Daniel_ Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It! Location: Southern England	Not to cause an argument but aren't there shitloads of poor and homeless in the US already? Why does them all being in the same place make the disaster worse? I often wonder that after a crisis. More people die on American roads every month than died in the hurricane - but nobody is setting up a government task force on road death. You want the government to save lives and help people - that's very laudable, and I applaud you in expressing it. I'm really sorry if this came across as a rant against you - it isn't meant to; I'm just constantly astonished that it takes hundreds of deaths in one place to shift focus. __________________ ╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗ Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air, And deep beneath the rolling waves, In labyrinths of Coral Caves, The Echo of a distant time Comes willowing across the sand; And everthing is Green and Submarine ╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

08-31-2005, 01:27 AM	#5 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	It also depends on WHERE those deaths are occuring or WHO the deaths are. No one gives a shit (pardon my language) about the millions of deaths in Africa. I also remember when the Tsunami hit last year, a lot of TFP'rs shrugged it off. I am curious as to what they think now about this hurricane. The body count is still "only" 80 compared with 200,000 (can't remember precise number) in the tsunami but people are already freaking out about how what a terrible disaster this is and what a horrible loss of life. I don't know, just putting some perspective on it.... Personally I think it's a miracle that so many people survived. I think it's a testament to our country (the USA). Could you imagine a hurricane (or tsunami or typhoon or whatever) hitting elsewhere? I mean they are still cleaning up after the tsunami. Yes the looting sucks (it's really embarrassing) but all in all, I though the system worked pretty well. That 'cane was HUGE. But yet we only lost 80 people (so far I know, I know). Even in a modern country like Japan, I bet the body count and devastation would have been way worse. I think we'll be ok. We'll probably bounce back better. No need to panic (yet). __________________ "The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter

08-31-2005, 07:09 AM	#6 (permalink)
lurkette My future is coming on Moderator Emeritus Location: east of the sun and west of the moon	I appreciate the sentiment, and I do think we ought to provide for those in New Orleans and the gulf coast who will need assistance getting back on their feet after the disaster. However, I don't think it's necessary to set up an "us vs. them" mentality in order to take care of "our own" and also take care of people in other nations who are just as much in need of the very basic necessities: food, clean water, shelter. It costs a lot less per person to provide these things in many developing nations, and many of the Americans displaced by the storm have other resources at hand: insurance, family, churches and other charities. I don't think geography or frankly arbitrary geopolitical boundaries ought to define our capacity for compassion and generosity. __________________ "If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France

08-30-2005, 10:33 PM	#2 (permalink)
Arroe Insane Location: USA	I agree. New Orlean's is destroyed and estimates are saying it's 25 billion dollars in damages. Thousands of families' homes are destroyed and underwater. Imagine everything in your home destroyed. These people need all the help they can get...

08-31-2005, 07:26 AM	#7 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	That is actually a good idea, Clavus. I think that in a time of need, people should look inward and find the strength and courage to help themselves. I applaud the hard work performed by dedicated people. Wait a minute... What if cutting off foreign aid causes animosity from countries who depend on it? What if they then start to chant "Death to America"? What if said country sends terrorists to blow shit up, and you guys then proceed to divert international aid funding towards domestic causes? Uh oh. I think I will have to change my original statement. __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

08-31-2005, 07:30 AM	#8 (permalink)
clavus pow! Location: NorCal	Well, I'm pretty selfish and tribal. But it's not a question of us VS them. Its a simple matter of allocation of resources. We have a big problem here, at home. Hundreds of thousands of my tribe are homeless. My country's infrastructure is severly damaged. And we don't have money to fix this stuff. Let's take the money we were using to fix some other tribe's problems and use it to fix our own. Once we get back on our feet, I'm sure we can go back to our role as the world's biggest charity. __________________ Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.

08-31-2005, 07:37 AM	#9 (permalink)
avhg1 Insane Location: MD	I agree completely. Don't starve yourself to death by giving all your food to others. It doesn't do any good for anyone if charity is done in a self destructive manner. When necessary, get yourself back together, so that you can help others. It does sound selfish, but the US is often taken for granted on the charity and support we provide other nations, so we should concentrate on fixing our own problems first and for once let other nations fix themselves. __________________ I shake the devil's hand daily... I'd do it hourly, but my hand gets tired.

08-31-2005, 08:13 AM	#11 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	Like John Lennon, I am imagining life where there was no rich, no poor, no possessions, nothing to distinguish you from your neighbour. I am pretty sure that Hurricane Katrina is not what he was thinking about. I was thinking that there would be something more idealistic, more utopic. Hey, do you think there is a smiley that accurately portrays the grief of having all your shit blow away, while you stand waist-deep in festering sewer water? --> Oh, look, my shit is blowing round and round. --> those aren't question marks over my head, they are little stink lines. --> Ouch, I got a stick blown in my eye, but I'm smiling because my neighbor is waaaay worse off. Okay, maybe I am being insensitive by being humourous in a time like this, but what else am I going to do... make faces like this? --> __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

08-31-2005, 08:17 AM	#12 (permalink)
lurkette My future is coming on Moderator Emeritus Location: east of the sun and west of the moon	The impulse to tribalism is pretty much universal and understandable. But looking at it in that limited way may be cutting off your nose to spite your face. If you want to get pragmatic and not idealistic about it, where is our money going to advance our interests with the most effectiveness? Aid to foreign nations, WHEN USED EFFECTIVELY (i.e., not poured into the pockets of a Mugabe or used ostensibly to fund the Taliban's feeble anti-opium efforts), creates educated, well-fed, stable populations that are more amenable to democratic values and, one might argue, capitalist market structures. This creates large populations of people who 1. want to buy our stuff or work for our companies, and 2. don't want to fly planes full of fuel into our major population centers. If you want to look at it from a humanitarian perspective, there are people who are in MORE NEED in other nations than the ones affected by this hurricane. We already have emergency and disaster funds in place to take care of situations like this, without rescinding foreign aid, which is a pittance of our national budget. (Actually, Bush just cut emergency funding in part in order to fund his tax cut to people who don't need any help at all. /liberal snark) And looking at absolute and relative need, there are already structures in place in this country to meet the very basic needs - food, clean water, shelter, education, medical care - of those who need it. The same can not be said of many of the nations who are recipients of our aid. I just think it's a rather short-sighted knee-jerk reaction to demand that we "take care of our own" first. Taking care of others is, sometimes, taking care of our own, just not in the same touchy-feely, ready-for-tv-news, make-you-feel-good-for-still-having-a-home way. Threadjack of the moment: Where's your charitable impulse when the topic is welfare http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=94005 or universal health care? Why is it suddenly okay to help masses of the homeless because a hurricane wiped out their house and they didn't have flood insurance, and not okay to help the same number of widely dispersed homeless because, e.g., they got sick and lost their job and didn't have savings accounts? __________________ "If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France

08-31-2005, 08:49 AM	#13 (permalink)
zen_tom Guest	Considering the practicalities of the matter, it would be far more expensive and extremely wasteful to suddenly wind everything down that's going on around the world, buying expensive air tickets to fly the overseas workers back home again, having to make big payoffs in legal costs for unkept promises and commitments and plenty of other expensive legal and moral obligation dodging in order to save some money to spend right now at home. It would very likely take a full six months (at least) to fully withdraw from the rest of the world, at which point, losses in trade (yes, aid actually generates revenue) and public and political concerns over America's knee-jerk reactions to events would cause uncertainty, resulting in the dollar being worth even less than it is now, combined with a pulling out of investment from abroad, resulting in massive job losses, higher taxes, gas prices and eventually hyper inflation.

08-31-2005, 09:10 PM	#16 (permalink)
tspikes51 Fuckin' A Location: Lex Vegas	In the words of Terrance and Phillip: "I agree wholefartedly." When an entity is too busy looking out for other entites to take care of its own shit, they need to take a serious look at its priorities. It's that simple folks. __________________ "I'm telling you, we need to get rid of a few people or a million." -Maddox

08-31-2005, 11:00 PM	#17 (permalink)
LewisCouch Insane Location: Pacific NW	What amazes me is how little money is allocated to FEMA and Homeland Security in the current Federal budget. Certainly, there must be some actuary that has submitted reasonable analyses of a disaster of this magnitude. Believing this, one must assume that the Feds are aware of such numbers and would budget appropriately; however, the current budget for FEMA can only be described as dismal and inadequate at best. Rather than eliminate our international aid programs that IMHO return far more than is invested and ultimately prove to be wise investments, perhaps a more realistic and practical budget should be formulated. How about reducing the budget of the Defense agency (17%, $402B) to begin with? Here's a good one: the current budget for the continuing devlopment of the V22 (Osprey) is $360 million dollars. Does anyone know how many of these wonder birds are flying since it first took flight in 1989? not to mention any number of pricey "pet" projects that receive funding. How about taking a hard look at NASA? This agencies performance has been less than stellar, and it's budget is $16 billion this year; almost enough to rebuild New Orleans, assuming the current estimates are high. Trim the fat off the damn budget. The American people deserve better and should demand so. __________________ "The gift of liberty is like that of a horse, handsome, strong, and high-spirited. In some it arouses a wish to ride; in many others, on the contrary, it increases the desire to walk." -- Massimo d'Azeglio

08-31-2005, 11:23 PM	#18 (permalink)
maskedrider Banned	The media coverage of the disaster reduces the victims to either pathetic or violent cartoons. Judging from the coverage, you'd think all the white folk left and only black people were left behind. What happened to fair, balanced, and "deep" reporting?

09-01-2005, 03:35 AM	#19 (permalink)
highthief Junkie Location: Ontario, Canada	well, I think about 90% of the people left behind/who stayed behind are black, so why wouldn't you see those images? __________________ Si vis pacem parabellum.

09-01-2005, 05:54 AM	#20 (permalink)
lurkette My future is coming on Moderator Emeritus Location: east of the sun and west of the moon	New Orleans is about 68% black to start with, so you're going to see more black people than white people no matter what. (http://neworleans.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm) __________________ "If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France

09-01-2005, 11:48 AM	#24 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I had heard that the Feds offered to send teams down to help... No Reply. Guess the US, like India during the Tsunami, likes to take care of their own. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

09-01-2005, 12:24 PM	#26 (permalink)
clavus pow! Location: NorCal	[QUOTE=Yakk]Clavus, talk to your god damn politicians. Your senator, your member of your house. [/url] I did that first thing. I even sent a fax to George W (Don't worry, I used small, simple words). I would encourage all US citizens to contact their elected leaders. __________________ Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.

09-02-2005, 06:54 AM	#29 (permalink)
alansmithee Junkie	I think we really need to look at diverting some US aid as a whole toward domestic projects (not just for the hurricane relief efforts, but to help schools, domestic economic growth, etc.) so I agree with the OP wholeheartedly. As for foreign aid, i'm personally glad that we are (currently) refusing aid from other countries. It would be extremely shameful if America, supposedly the most powerful and wealthyest country in the world, was reduced to begging for outside help. To me, that would be the biggest tragedy.

09-02-2005, 09:30 AM	#33 (permalink)
Yakk Wehret Den Anfängen! Location: Ontario, Canada	I have heard (low reliability) that the heavy urban rescue team from Vancouver is on the ground in the USA now. __________________ Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

09-02-2005, 12:39 PM	#34 (permalink)
smackson Upright Location: West Valley City, Utah	I think we should bring our troops home from Iraq. If we had those troops home with our military equipment like helicopters, we would have A LOT more available troops for Search and Rescue and they could have saved a few lives. Instead they are at war looking for..... well I guess the weapons that we were originally looking for.

09-02-2005, 06:49 PM	#35 (permalink)
meembo Junkie Location: Connecticut	I think the offers of aid from third world countries is notable. Clinton couldn't help but smile when he mentioned offers of third world aid to the Gulf Coast during the press conference with Bush I and II, including offers of aid from nations affected by the tsunami in December. __________________ less I say, smarter I am