From Bitch Dog to Jew Couple... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Cynthetiq · 08-18-2005, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Link

August 17, 2005, 6:27 PM EDT

not Allenhurst. bas2cnbas

LOCH ARBOUR, N.J. (AP) _ The bill was a shocker, and not because of the amount.

After eating in a Jersey shore restaurant, Elliott Stein, 23, and his girlfriend were handed a bill that said "Jew Couple" near the bottom.

Stein, of New York, accompanied by Jennifer Cassin, had sushi and drinks at Parkhill's Waterfront Grill on July 8. When the $36.75 bill came, the slur appeared on it as a table identifier. It also turned up on Stein's credit card bill statement, which came weeks later.

Stein, a regular at the restaurant, was shocked.

"My grandfather went through all that in old-school Europe," Stein told the New York Post. "But that happened more than 50 years ago. You don't expect it to happen in 2005, especially when a lot of their money comes from our community."

The state Attorney General's Office said Wednesday afternoon that it was investigating the matter through its Division on Civil Rights.

"The Attorney General finds this report extremely troubling, and we are beginning to look at the matter with an eye toward determining whether the facts suggest there has been a violation of the law. If there has been, we will take action," said Lee Moore, a spokesman for the Attorney General.

Stein could not be reached for comment Wednesday. He did not return two telephone messages left at his office.

The server, identified on the check as someone named Karina, is no longer working at the restaurant, general manager Malia Wells said Wednesday. Wells wouldn't say if it was because of the incident.

"We don't run our establishment like that," Wells said. "It was definitely poor judgment on her part."

Stephen Reid, a spokesman for the restaurant, said it had been the waitstaff's practice to use descriptions of diners to identify them on checks, instead of using the number of their table, as many establishments do.

"Let's say you came in in a blue shirt and I wore a blue cap with `USA' on it. So they say the guy with the blue shirt and blue cap is table two. I guess she thought it was a funny thing to put down. I think she understands now it wasn't, as does the owner."

He said racial slurs were never used to describe diners. The restaurant, which is eight years old, is owned by Michael Parkhill.

"The idea that a restaurant or any establishment is labeling customers by race and then printing it on their bill is unbelievable," said Etzion Neuer, director of the New Jersey Anti-Defamation League. "It doesn't even say `Jew-ish,"' he said. "It's indefensible."

First a cable bill comes addressed to the customer as Bitch Dog, and then diners labeled as "Jew Couple"

While I don't see it as inherently derogatory, it's definitely inflammatory given the context of the how the word "jew" has been used in the past. People wonder why things get uptight and not so loose, well you give people room to make their own judgement and sometimes it's not what you would expect it to be.

flstf · 08-18-2005, 08:46 AM

I really can't see how any laws were broken by the restaurant unless being described as a Jew is considered derogatory in New Jersey.

*Nikki* · 08-18-2005, 08:57 AM

I guess it all depends how you look at it. If someone were to describe my husband and I as "Italian Couple" I would not be the least bit offended. However I know that Jewish people have gone through a lot more in the past that makes terms like the one used slightly offensive to say the least.

Jesus Pimp · 08-18-2005, 09:01 AM

They could have just used table numbers and avoided all this.

Janey · 08-18-2005, 09:29 AM

"The idea that a restaurant or any establishment is labeling customers by race and then printing it on their bill is unbelievable," said Etzion Neuer, director of the New Jersey Anti-Defamation League."

tech detail: not in this case. It didn't refer to their race, simply their perceived culture/religion.

when I get referred to as "that chink over there" now that's identifying by racial defamation. And it has happened.

maleficent · 08-18-2005, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flstf

I really can't see how any laws were broken by the restaurant unless being described as a Jew is considered derogatory in New Jersey.

Jew can be used as a insult for someone who is a bit of a tightwad... (and that's pretty much the only way i've heard it used.)In this context it's a little tough to figure out how the waitress meant it..

Jew as a description is a tough, because unless he's wearing a yamulke or dressed in Orthodox attire (dark hat, and dark clothes) it'd be pretty tough to determine someones nationality by looking at them.

Table numbers would be a lot easier than trying to go with someone else's description of what someone looked like... If you asked two people to describe the same person in 5 words or less, they owuld probably come up with different adjectives...

Xazy · 08-18-2005, 11:17 AM

Jew, to me is a race a nationality and a religeon. It is a very big discussion and debate I have had.

But imagine different let us say it said 'black couple' or 'arab couple.'

I would never go there, I would complain to the manager and leave no tip if someone insulted me like that. And I then would contact the ADL & press.

TM875 · 08-18-2005, 11:32 AM

It's an adjective, people. Get over yourselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xazy

Jew, to me is a race a nationality and a religeon. It is a very big discussion and debate I have had.

But imagine different let us say it said 'black couple' or 'arab couple.'

I would never go there, I would complain to the manager and leave no tip if someone insulted me like that. And I then would contact the ADL & press.

Um, what is wrong with referring to two married African-American people as a "black couple". Likewise, I see nothing wrong with describing those with obvious Middle-Eastern decent as an "Arab couble". "Asian", "Latino", or...gasp.."French"... they're just descriptions.

If she labled the table as "Woman with crooked teeth" or "Man with toupe", then we wouldn't be having this discussion now, would we?

Another case of the obvious pussification of America. If I was in charge of the news network that you contacted, I'd just laugh at you. Grow up.

Cynthetiq · 08-18-2005, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TM875

It's an adjective, people. Get over yourselves.

Um, what is wrong with referring to two married African-American people as a "black couple". Likewise, I see nothing wrong with describing those with obvious Middle-Eastern decent as an "Arab couble". "Asian", "Latino", or...gasp.."French"... they're just descriptions.

If she labled the table as "Woman with crooked teeth" or "Man with toupe", then we wouldn't be having this discussion now, would we?

Another case of the obvious pussification of America. If I was in charge of the news network that you contacted, I'd just laugh at you. Grow up.

Since we're moving into the world of IF, I'll put a frame around your references....

"Man with toupe", "Woman with crooked teeth" is labeled as such on the bill and they happen to be model or actor then that could be libel or defamation of character and can take equal offense to it.

People are free to take offense to what they want to, and they are also equally free to spend their money where they wish.

Marvelous Marv · 08-18-2005, 11:45 AM

Very poor form, and bad business.

But not inherently racist.

To me, it's kind of like the old Bob Newhart show, when they told the makeup man to "put some more on the guy with the toupee."

The Steins may have been more upset that the assumption was correct than anything else.

martinguerre · 08-18-2005, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TM875

Another case of the obvious pussification of America.

Why that word keeps showing up is really beyond me. It's clearly non-standard English and marks the user as somewhat gauche on it's face. Beyond that, it's fairly easy to interpret it's use as misogynistic and backward.

as for the case at hand...it's bad business practice is what it is. it obviously caused offense and strife to the customer, who was apparently otherwise pleased with the meal. even if such a label provided some level of ease in referring to a party at a table, there isn't going to be a tip (or a return visit) if they think they've been targeted or slandered.

ironman · 08-18-2005, 11:57 AM

Political correctness and over sensitive people are shitting all over our freedoms. C'mon people, if you're tall, your going to be referred as the TALL GUY, if you're short, you're gonna be referred as the SHORT GUY and so over, get over it allready!!!
I think it wasn't a long time ago that ther was this documentary en Discovery Channel about how our brains do to remember people, and it is a process of "cartooning" the individuals, our brains tend to identify and remember faces and persons because of what makes the unique or more obvious, is just the way we are, so instead of been pussies that sues over any stupid thing, we should start to give importance to what really is.

Xazy · 08-18-2005, 12:28 PM

In a restaurant there are a number of different methods to refer to a table. To label them by some attribute / nationality of a person is unprofessional, and can be construed as racist. To then have that information shown to the client is an even bigger blunder.

The fact that information turns up on the bill and credit card statement that is what I consider wrong. You want to have that for your own personal method to keep track of your table go for it. But when it goes further then that, it definitely is a big no-no.

Vincentt · 08-18-2005, 03:51 PM

This isn't worthy of being news.

I think running this all the way to the media is dumb.

Redjake · 08-18-2005, 06:12 PM

I don't see what the big deal is. Sure, Judaism has had a harsh past when compared to other religions, but it's not like the person put "stinking Jew couple" or "fucking jew couple" or anything. This wouldn't even be in the news if it said "muslim couple" or "christian couple."

If it were used in any sort of derogatory sense I would be angry, but it's not proven. The girl/whoever that put "jew couple" in was probably just trying to distinguish them to make it easier on the restaurant, nothing personal. if the person put "red hat couple" because the two wore red hats all the time, they wouldn't care. whenever religion is brought in I guess people get too touchy. what, are they ashamed of being Jewish?

maleficent · 08-18-2005, 06:23 PM

Until you've walked a mile in someone else's shoes one person really can't decide for another person what they shoudl or should not be offended by. Just because person A isn't offended by something, doesn't mean person B also won't be offended. Every person has their own level of tolerance. Maybe person A got teased their entire life for being tall - and tall jokes are sensitive issue for them.

Why is a person's description even needed in a restaurant. Number or letter the tables.

shesus · 08-18-2005, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

Until you've walked a mile in someone else's shoes one person really can't decide for another person what they shoudl or should not be offended by. Just because person A isn't offended by something, doesn't mean person B also won't be offended. Every person has their own level of tolerance. Maybe person A got teased their entire life for being tall - and tall jokes are sensitive issue for them.

Why is a person's description even needed in a restaurant. Number or letter the tables.

My mom is 5" 11' and has been that height since 8th grade. She takes it as an insult if someone mentions her height. She is self-conscious about it because she has heard the comments most of her life. I remember her coming home from work upset because the guys in the plant said something about her height. Many people take comments to heart. I think that this couple has a right to be upset. Now whether it is blown out of proportion, that is an individual call. But obviously it was important to them.

Gilda · 08-18-2005, 06:55 PM

First, identifying customers by race is unnecessary. If they don't want to do table numbers there are any number of ways of identifying customers that are creative.

Second, Jew when used as a prenominative modifier is almost always used in an insulting manner. "Jewish couple" might a neutral description, but "Jew couple" is an insult. It either displays very crude manners or is outright insulting.

Even if they had used the more neutral description, it's still strange that and ethnic descriptor was used, unless they intended to give differentiated treatment based on that information.

One restaurant we go to sometimes uses a small stuffed animal, which is place at the edge of the table, making the table rabbit, or tiger and so forth. Another I've seen uses the wall decorations hanging near the table.

It was at the very least rude.

Gilda

Redjake · 08-18-2005, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

Until you've walked a mile in someone else's shoes one person really can't decide for another person what they shoudl or should not be offended by. Just because person A isn't offended by something, doesn't mean person B also won't be offended. Every person has their own level of tolerance. Maybe person A got teased their entire life for being tall - and tall jokes are sensitive issue for them.

Why is a person's description even needed in a restaurant. Number or letter the tables.

I agree....but in this case, it hasn't been proved it was a 'jew joke,' it has only been established they were referred to as the 'jew couple.' You said in your post that " - and tall jokes are sensitive issues for them." True, tall jokes are sensitive issues for them, but what about simply being referred to as tall without a joking or derogatory manner? I think this is an important aspect many are overlooking. You shouldn't get offended or get angry at someone for referring to you as jewish or being tall when they didn't mean it in any sort of derogatory manner whatsoever. True, it's a little uncouth, but restaurants (if you've ever had the happiness of working in one

) are all sorts of uncouth when you have 30 customers that want to be pleased.

Ananas · 08-18-2005, 07:11 PM

How did the server know the couple was Jewish?

If the diners were wearing distinctive religious artifacts such as a yarmulke or a Star of David necklace, then she was correct in assuming they may be of the Jewish faith, but was over the line to use the outward symbols of their faith to describe them on the bill.

If the diners were not wearing anything that would have immediately identified their faith, then that calls into question her reasoning for labeling them as "jew couple".

Makes you wonder how she identified other customers...

analog · 08-18-2005, 07:38 PM

Seems like I have to do this more and more, but here's the other side of the coin...

(quick background, i'm 1/4 jewish, from my grandfather, so i don't want to hear it. i'm also- and very identifiably- 3/4 italian)

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Nikki*

I guess it all depends how you look at it. If someone were to describe my husband and I as "Italian Couple" I would not be the least bit offended.

It's totally a question of intent. As for the relevant "slur" quality of saying "jew" instead of "jewish"... do we know anything about the waitress? Maybe she speaks shitty english. Wow, a person in the NY/NJ area who doesn't speak perfect english? Shocking!

Poor judgment? Totally.
Crucify the owner? No.

If the entire staff was writing "nigger couple", "chink couple", "dago couple", "towel-head couple", "spic couple", "dot-head couple" (did i leave anyone out?), then that's a huge problem. If, however, that waitress is let go, and everyone else isn't having problems with questionable language use, then I say let the thing die out.

It really doesn't look like it has anything to do with the establishment, just one stupid (or just ignorant/insensitive) bitch.

Lwang9276 · 08-18-2005, 09:59 PM

hmm i dont think its as bad as its put out to be, i think its jus the waitresses mistake and not the whole business. I mean of course u mgiht be offended but why not just be like "what the f? shes right about somethign, i aint leavin tip tonight" and just laugh it off. But yea maleficent is right saying that the tolerance level of people are different.

Vincentt · 08-18-2005, 11:22 PM

Jew is short for Jewish. It could be as simple as that.

Jap is short for Japanese. Not sure if everyone knows that most Japanese find "jap" quite offensive.

But, I have never heard a Japanese call themselves "Jap". but I have heard Jewish call themselves "jew".

ElwoodBlues · 08-18-2005, 11:38 PM

I really don't see what all the fuss is about here.

Being half Jewish, I never get offended if someone calls me a Jew. Sometimes my friends even use it as a nickname (i.e. "Hey Pete, ya Jew bastard, hurry up" or "Pete, you look so sad without your Jew fro")

I never get offended at all by these things. Maybe I'm just a laid back guy.

Which obviously, Mr. Stein is not. Was he possibly wearing or doing something that easily identified him as Jewish? As Maleficent in a way mentioned, maybe he was wearing a yarmulke, or spinning a dreidel or something. Who knows.

Maybe I'm just too easy-going to see what all the fuss is over.

Suave · 08-18-2005, 11:44 PM

I think simply the usage of "Jew couple" rather than the proper "Jewish couple" makes it anti-semitic in connotation. Either that, or it just seems that way because it so offends my grammatical sensibilities.

ElwoodBlues · 08-18-2005, 11:48 PM

Another thought I just had. I have an uncle who is an Orthodox Jew. That's how he describes himself, thats how I describe him, how my father describes him, etc etc....

So why is the word Jew ok in that application, but not in others, such as "Jew Couple"?

Suave · 08-19-2005, 12:26 AM

"Jew couple" is completely improper grammar. Calling a single person a Jew is not. Improper grammar tends to signify slang, which in this case would be derogatory.

Vincentt · 08-19-2005, 02:25 AM

Usage note: The word "Jew" is a noun. Its use as an adjective (e.g. "Jew lawyer") is widely considered offensive; "Jewish" is strongly preferred. Its use as a verb (e.g. "to jew someone") is also considered offensive. Some sources, such as the American Heritage Dictionary, suggest that phrases like "Jewish person" may be offensive if pointedly used to avoid the word "Jew".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews

Xazy · 08-19-2005, 03:05 AM

On a side point the restaurant had another receipt with the words 'dirty Joanne' on it. Just heard this on fox 5 news.

jwoody · 08-19-2005, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xazy

On a side point the restaurant had another receipt with the words 'dirty Joanne' on it. Just heard this on fox 5 news.

Did it say whether she was dirty, unclean... or dirty, does anything dirty?

Xazy · 08-19-2005, 03:58 AM

The only words that was on it was just 'dirty Joanne.' (then again that was what they blew up on tv)

Charlatan · 08-19-2005, 05:28 AM

People need to get thicker skins... really. OMG!!! The waitress called me... wait for it... DIRTY!

If you don't like it don't go there anymore.

As for Jew comment... it would traditionally be seen as derogatory but please... let the manager know your displeasure and never go back. Does this really need to be a story in the news (especially if it just ends up being bad grammar or ignorance rather than intentional racism).

Here's the thing. I am pretty sure that the waitress and the restaurant are not KKK or Nazis... The restaurant has (had) a stupid policy of identifying tables with descriptions rather than numbers. Something like this was bound to happen. If it wasn't the "Jew Couple" it was going to be "Dirty Joanne" or "Smelly Guy" or "Pedophile" or "Slack Jawed Moron with Tuque"...

Really. There are racist people. There are ignorant people. Is beating this story to death on the news and in this forum really going to change anything?

Not bloody likely.

Move on there is nothing to see.

maleficent · 08-19-2005, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

People need to get thicker skins... really. OMG!!! The waitress called me... wait for it... DIRTY!
.

On any given day, i would probably agree with you, but after conversations I've had in the past few days, with people telling me what I should love, what I should feel, and what i should do... I'm being contrary...

WHY should people get thicker skins? Why shouldn't other people try to be a little kinder? Wouldn't the world be a better place if it were? Was it necessary to call Joanne dirty? Clearly they know her name, it's Joanne, are there that many Joannes that come into that place that they have to distiguish between the two.

If I were to go into a restaurant and be called ugly maleficent, or crabby assed maleficent - it's be a true statement, it'd be accurate, but it's not all that nice... If I bitched about it, I'd agree that I probably would need to get a thicker skin, but it would bother me, I can't help that it bothers me... It's not necessary to use those kind of descriptors.

jwoody · 08-19-2005, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Elliott Stein, 23, and his girlfriend were handed a bill that said "Jew Couple" near the bottom.

Quote:

"My grandfather went through all that in old-school Europe," Stein told the New York Post.

Yes, this restaurant incident is exactly like Nazi Germany.

Charlatan · 08-19-2005, 07:14 AM

Mal I completely agree with you... courtesy is a two-way street. But one cannot rely on others to be polite or know what common courtesy is... I find that when I expect people to behave accordingly I am continually disappointed.

What is required is that people of good conscience behave appropriately and set a good example. These same people must also have a thick skin and not fly off the handle when they are met with the derisve comments generated by the barbarous hordes that seemingly make up the bulk of humanity.

analog · 08-19-2005, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwoody

Yes, this restaurant incident is exactly like Nazi Germany.

LMAO jwoody for the win!

MSD · 08-19-2005, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ananas

How did the server know the couple was Jewish?

If you see a person with physical features associated with semitic heritage and the last name Stein, what would be your first guess as to their religion? Take into consideration that many people (I'd estimate half) who aren't prejudiced against Jews still think that Jewish is a racial decription rather than a religious or ethnic description, and you get the idea. It's unfortunate, but Hitler managed to create a widespread blurring of the line between race and religion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwoody

Yes, this restaurant incident is exactly like Nazi Germany.

He said Europe, not Germany. Anti-Semitism was widespread outside of Germany and was not necessarily linked to the Nazis.

jwoody · 08-20-2005, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

He said Europe, not Germany. Anti-Semitism was widespread outside of Germany and was not necessarily linked to the Nazis.

The point is: calling a jew a jew is not anti-semitic.

hazelman · 08-20-2005, 03:37 AM

I'm calling shenanigans. How could something like a handwritten phrase end up on a credit card statement? God knows I have enough of those, and I've never seen anything like that.

World's King · 08-20-2005, 10:02 AM

The sheriff is a...

08-18-2005, 09:01 AM	#4 (permalink)
Jesus Pimp The Original JizzSmacka	They could have just used table numbers and avoided all this. __________________ Never date anyone who doesn't make your dick hard.

08-18-2005, 11:57 AM	#12 (permalink)
ironman Smithers, release the hounds Location: Guatemala, Guatemala	Political correctness and over sensitive people are shitting all over our freedoms. C'mon people, if you're tall, your going to be referred as the TALL GUY, if you're short, you're gonna be referred as the SHORT GUY and so over, get over it allready!!! I think it wasn't a long time ago that ther was this documentary en Discovery Channel about how our brains do to remember people, and it is a process of "cartooning" the individuals, our brains tend to identify and remember faces and persons because of what makes the unique or more obvious, is just the way we are, so instead of been pussies that sues over any stupid thing, we should start to give importance to what really is. __________________ If I agreed with you we´d both be wrong

08-18-2005, 03:51 PM	#14 (permalink)
Vincentt Addict Location: Tokyo, Japan	This isn't worthy of being news. I think running this all the way to the media is dumb. __________________ .

08-18-2005, 06:12 PM	#15 (permalink)
Redjake I'm a family man - I run a family business. Location: Wilson, NC	I don't see what the big deal is. Sure, Judaism has had a harsh past when compared to other religions, but it's not like the person put "stinking Jew couple" or "fucking jew couple" or anything. This wouldn't even be in the news if it said "muslim couple" or "christian couple." If it were used in any sort of derogatory sense I would be angry, but it's not proven. The girl/whoever that put "jew couple" in was probably just trying to distinguish them to make it easier on the restaurant, nothing personal. if the person put "red hat couple" because the two wore red hats all the time, they wouldn't care. whenever religion is brought in I guess people get too touchy. what, are they ashamed of being Jewish? __________________ Off the record, on the q.t., and very hush-hush.

08-18-2005, 06:23 PM	#16 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	Until you've walked a mile in someone else's shoes one person really can't decide for another person what they shoudl or should not be offended by. Just because person A isn't offended by something, doesn't mean person B also won't be offended. Every person has their own level of tolerance. Maybe person A got teased their entire life for being tall - and tall jokes are sensitive issue for them. Why is a person's description even needed in a restaurant. Number or letter the tables. __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

08-18-2005, 08:46 AM	#2 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	I really can't see how any laws were broken by the restaurant unless being described as a Jew is considered derogatory in New Jersey.

08-18-2005, 08:57 AM	#3 (permalink)
Nikki ~~~~~~~ Location: Charleston, SC	I guess it all depends how you look at it. If someone were to describe my husband and I as "Italian Couple" I would not be the least bit offended. However I know that Jewish people have gone through a lot more in the past that makes terms like the one used slightly offensive to say the least.

08-18-2005, 09:29 AM	#5 (permalink)
Janey Junkie Location: Toronto	"The idea that a restaurant or any establishment is labeling customers by race and then printing it on their bill is unbelievable," said Etzion Neuer, director of the New Jersey Anti-Defamation League." tech detail: not in this case. It didn't refer to their race, simply their perceived culture/religion. when I get referred to as "that chink over there" now that's identifying by racial defamation. And it has happened.

08-18-2005, 11:17 AM	#7 (permalink)
Xazy People in masks cannot be trusted Location: NYC	Jew, to me is a race a nationality and a religeon. It is a very big discussion and debate I have had. But imagine different let us say it said 'black couple' or 'arab couple.' I would never go there, I would complain to the manager and leave no tip if someone insulted me like that. And I then would contact the ADL & press.

08-18-2005, 11:45 AM	#10 (permalink)
Marvelous Marv Cunning Runt Location: Taking a mulligan	Very poor form, and bad business. But not inherently racist. To me, it's kind of like the old Bob Newhart show, when they told the makeup man to "put some more on the guy with the toupee." The Steins may have been more upset that the assumption was correct than anything else.

08-18-2005, 12:28 PM	#13 (permalink)
Xazy People in masks cannot be trusted Location: NYC	In a restaurant there are a number of different methods to refer to a table. To label them by some attribute / nationality of a person is unprofessional, and can be construed as racist. To then have that information shown to the client is an even bigger blunder. The fact that information turns up on the bill and credit card statement that is what I consider wrong. You want to have that for your own personal method to keep track of your table go for it. But when it goes further then that, it definitely is a big no-no.

08-18-2005, 06:55 PM	#18 (permalink)
Gilda 32 flavors and then some Location: Out on a wire.	First, identifying customers by race is unnecessary. If they don't want to do table numbers there are any number of ways of identifying customers that are creative. Second, Jew when used as a prenominative modifier is almost always used in an insulting manner. "Jewish couple" might a neutral description, but "Jew couple" is an insult. It either displays very crude manners or is outright insulting. Even if they had used the more neutral description, it's still strange that and ethnic descriptor was used, unless they intended to give differentiated treatment based on that information. One restaurant we go to sometimes uses a small stuffed animal, which is place at the edge of the table, making the table rabbit, or tiger and so forth. Another I've seen uses the wall decorations hanging near the table. It was at the very least rude. Gilda __________________ I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert

08-18-2005, 07:11 PM	#20 (permalink)
Ananas Still Crazy Location: In my own time	How did the server know the couple was Jewish? If the diners were wearing distinctive religious artifacts such as a yarmulke or a Star of David necklace, then she was correct in assuming they may be of the Jewish faith, but was over the line to use the outward symbols of their faith to describe them on the bill. If the diners were not wearing anything that would have immediately identified their faith, then that calls into question her reasoning for labeling them as "jew couple". Makes you wonder how she identified other customers... __________________ it's gritty

08-18-2005, 09:59 PM	#22 (permalink)
Lwang9276 Crazy	hmm i dont think its as bad as its put out to be, i think its jus the waitresses mistake and not the whole business. I mean of course u mgiht be offended but why not just be like "what the f? shes right about somethign, i aint leavin tip tonight" and just laugh it off. But yea maleficent is right saying that the tolerance level of people are different.

08-18-2005, 11:22 PM	#23 (permalink)
Vincentt Addict Location: Tokyo, Japan	Jew is short for Jewish. It could be as simple as that. Jap is short for Japanese. Not sure if everyone knows that most Japanese find "jap" quite offensive. But, I have never heard a Japanese call themselves "Jap". but I have heard Jewish call themselves "jew". __________________ .

08-18-2005, 11:38 PM	#24 (permalink)
ElwoodBlues Psycho Location: Massachusetts	I really don't see what all the fuss is about here. Being half Jewish, I never get offended if someone calls me a Jew. Sometimes my friends even use it as a nickname (i.e. "Hey Pete, ya Jew bastard, hurry up" or "Pete, you look so sad without your Jew fro") I never get offended at all by these things. Maybe I'm just a laid back guy. Which obviously, Mr. Stein is not. Was he possibly wearing or doing something that easily identified him as Jewish? As Maleficent in a way mentioned, maybe he was wearing a yarmulke, or spinning a dreidel or something. Who knows. Maybe I'm just too easy-going to see what all the fuss is over. __________________ I think Pringles initial intention was to make tennis balls. But on the day that the rubber was supposed to show up, a big truckload of potatoes arrived. But Pringles is a laid back company. They said "Fuck it. Cut em up." -Mitch Hedberg, '68-'05 Bauer's the man.

08-18-2005, 11:44 PM	#25 (permalink)
Suave Twitterpated Location: My own little world (also Canada)	I think simply the usage of "Jew couple" rather than the proper "Jewish couple" makes it anti-semitic in connotation. Either that, or it just seems that way because it so offends my grammatical sensibilities. __________________ "Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

08-18-2005, 11:48 PM	#26 (permalink)
ElwoodBlues Psycho Location: Massachusetts	Another thought I just had. I have an uncle who is an Orthodox Jew. That's how he describes himself, thats how I describe him, how my father describes him, etc etc.... So why is the word Jew ok in that application, but not in others, such as "Jew Couple"? __________________ I think Pringles initial intention was to make tennis balls. But on the day that the rubber was supposed to show up, a big truckload of potatoes arrived. But Pringles is a laid back company. They said "Fuck it. Cut em up." -Mitch Hedberg, '68-'05 Bauer's the man.

08-19-2005, 12:26 AM	#27 (permalink)
Suave Twitterpated Location: My own little world (also Canada)	"Jew couple" is completely improper grammar. Calling a single person a Jew is not. Improper grammar tends to signify slang, which in this case would be derogatory. __________________ "Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

08-19-2005, 02:25 AM	#28 (permalink)
Vincentt Addict Location: Tokyo, Japan	Usage note: The word "Jew" is a noun. Its use as an adjective (e.g. "Jew lawyer") is widely considered offensive; "Jewish" is strongly preferred. Its use as a verb (e.g. "to jew someone") is also considered offensive. Some sources, such as the American Heritage Dictionary, suggest that phrases like "Jewish person" may be offensive if pointedly used to avoid the word "Jew". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews __________________ .

08-19-2005, 03:05 AM	#29 (permalink)
Xazy People in masks cannot be trusted Location: NYC	On a side point the restaurant had another receipt with the words 'dirty Joanne' on it. Just heard this on fox 5 news.

08-19-2005, 03:58 AM	#31 (permalink)
Xazy People in masks cannot be trusted Location: NYC	The only words that was on it was just 'dirty Joanne.' (then again that was what they blew up on tv)

08-19-2005, 05:28 AM	#32 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	People need to get thicker skins... really. OMG!!! The waitress called me... wait for it... DIRTY! If you don't like it don't go there anymore. As for Jew comment... it would traditionally be seen as derogatory but please... let the manager know your displeasure and never go back. Does this really need to be a story in the news (especially if it just ends up being bad grammar or ignorance rather than intentional racism). Here's the thing. I am pretty sure that the waitress and the restaurant are not KKK or Nazis... The restaurant has (had) a stupid policy of identifying tables with descriptions rather than numbers. Something like this was bound to happen. If it wasn't the "Jew Couple" it was going to be "Dirty Joanne" or "Smelly Guy" or "Pedophile" or "Slack Jawed Moron with Tuque"... Really. There are racist people. There are ignorant people. Is beating this story to death on the news and in this forum really going to change anything? Not bloody likely. Move on there is nothing to see. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

08-19-2005, 07:14 AM	#35 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Mal I completely agree with you... courtesy is a two-way street. But one cannot rely on others to be polite or know what common courtesy is... I find that when I expect people to behave accordingly I am continually disappointed. What is required is that people of good conscience behave appropriately and set a good example. These same people must also have a thick skin and not fly off the handle when they are met with the derisve comments generated by the barbarous hordes that seemingly make up the bulk of humanity. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

08-20-2005, 03:37 AM	#39 (permalink)
hazelman Upright	I'm calling shenanigans. How could something like a handwritten phrase end up on a credit card statement? God knows I have enough of those, and I've never seen anything like that.

08-20-2005, 10:02 AM	#40 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	The sheriff is a... __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown