Dove's real women campaign
 

What does everyone think about this? I was reading some random magazine where some man was basically saying he didn't want to see fat women in their underwear.



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Oh yes. What morbidly obese creatures they are and all. :rolleyes:

They all look good to me:)

Well, that man is going to be very disappointed when he sees a woman nude. Not every woman is a stick, and none of those women in the above picture are terribly overweight.

Real women have curves :)

I love this campaign... not only for the 'firming cream' but for the whole What is beauty campaign that they are running. it's a smart campaign, business wise as well, who's going to buy a firming cream that has a waifish 20 year old model in the picture, or an skin cream that is being advertised by a 19 year old who doesn't know what a wrinkle is.

This is what real women look like, this is who they are marketing to, and these women really are beautiful.. takes a lot of confidence to appear in a national print ad in your undies... Confidence is sexy and beautiful..

The dude who doesnt want to see 'fat women in their underwear' can go get his copy ofthe victorias secret magazine and continue whacking off in the bathroom because that's probably as close as he will get to someone that beaufiful (and airbrushed)

it is a touch ironic that they're using "real" curves to sell such products a firming lotion.

still...i'd rather see that perhaps sad irony than the blatent hyperbole of the superthin models.

Men who expect movie/magazine-perfect women are going to be disappointed or very lonely, and deserve pretty much the relationships they get. I think all of the women in the ad look amazingly sexy.

I like this campaign, but I still have a problem with the reaction that "real women" have curves. I'm pretty uncurvy, and when I'm wearing a sports bra, I pretty much have the body of a twelve-year-old boy. I think the more important point is that real women aren't uniform in shape, curvy or otherwise. I'll like the campaign even more when they start varying the ads to include awkwardly bony, short, or stringy women too.

'bout goddamn time...and 30 years too late....maybe if some of the 20-somethings I've encountered lately had grown up with this sort of media advertising, their 'woe is me, I can't get laid (because I can't find anyone who looks like a centerfold)' constant whining would never be.....

I like the ad presented above. None of those women are fat, they are the way healthy women are supposed to look.

I personally love the way women look in Germany, it's one of the reasons I travel there so often. German women are raised on a rich, German diet and grow up looking similar to the women in the ad above. They are so much better looking than the 'walking skeletons' I see in every bar I walk into here in the US.

Could not have said it better myself. Some day reality will catch up with the rest of society.

dove's Campaign for real beauty
I know this is a product, and they are advertising in hopes to get sales, but the message behind this ad campaign, which has been running for a while now (the underwear girls have only been around since June, the campaign has been going on a lot longer) has a great message behind it and the website is wonderful (the section for girls on putting beauty into perspective and gaining self esteem is wonderful) and the faces of beauty section is incredible... The website has such a great message...

some of the other ad campaigns they've been running is a picture of a full figured young woman (who's quite lovely) in a sexy strapless black dress - with the words - oversized or outstanding? (you can vote on the website) i'm actually appalled that oversized got as many votes as it did. there's another woman with long gray hair, and the caption is gray or gorgeous -- that seems to be leaning heavily towards gorgeous... I hope, for the sake of young girls today, that this campaign is successfull and that the perception of beauty is changed.

Wow. Quick repsonses!

I wouldn't think of any of the underware girls above as fat.

Pretty much all of the women in the ad are of the build I like the most.

Anyone that goes to the beach, however, knows that these women are probably in the top 5% of body attractiveness.

I like these ads, because that's what I look like.

I was disappointed not too long ago when I saw a commercial that featured healthy-looking women dancing around--at first I thought wow, REAL women...and then I found out it was a commercial for Slim-Fast. Boo.

Real women do have curves, though SC is right--some of them don't have curves either. I'd like to see both. My best friend from high school was a tiny little thing (5'1", 100 pounds) and she was just as every bit as "real" as me...not to mention she ate twice as much as I did.

I hope Dove keeps this campaign running for a long time to come.

Wow, people would really consider these women "fat"? Society saddens the hell out of me...I think they are beautiful and it was SO refreshing to see it in a magazine.

Dang it. That's what I wanted to say. I hate "me too" posts, but, SC pretty much said everything I would have said if she hadn't gotten here first.

Gilda

I'd hit it. Those women might be average, but they're definitely on the skinny side of average. :D

Those women are all gorgeous, not fat by ANY stretch of the imagination. A person who thinks they ARE fat is a fool, and will live a sad life.

None of those girls are fat.

I think it is a good change.

There was a copy of this on a billboard in London, near where my GF used to live (she moved in here, since) and it was right across from a mosque.

The women of the mosque complained to the councill, but there were no legal grounds to remove the poster, so they went and painted clothes on the models. :D

I agree with those who said that the ads should include even more body types. Short, tall, thick, thin, light, dark. There should be no notion of what is beauty that should come from advertising, movies or media.

Add me to the "It doesn't go far enough" camp. I've spent half my life trying to convince the women in my life that "healthy" is important and dress size is not.

They are all sexy, beautiful, and not fat.
They look like women I could know.
I love 'em!

It's a start. I've noticed a few ads showing women who aren't so skinny that they're bony, who have that slightly rounded lower belly, and who are portrayed as healthy. The models who's bones are showing make me wonder how miserable their body must inevitably feel because of the starvation it endures. I realize some women just are more bony but the majority are not. It's nice to see women who look pleasant to cuddle. I prefer a softer more rounded shape, not a bony one. This is what I find attractive.

About time that people started showing pictures like this. That man who thinks they're fat - I can hardly imagine how much he is missing out on.

Much more important.

Now first off, I think those women look beautiful and healthy, and that it's great to see average sized women in advertising. I love Dove's advertisements. They've featured women with scars, piercings, tattoos, faces full of freckles, women in their nineties, women of different races, women of different sizes.. and they've actually included size 6 women in those instead of pretending real women only start at size 12 and up. They do reflect all sorts of different women, though none of the women are really overweight (they all seem to be in a healthy range) and they don't have cellulite or stretch marks or sagging chests, or no waists.. so it's not quite representative. But it's getting there.

Though I DO have a problem with the handful of people who take this sort of campaign the wrong way and go around proclaiming "Real women have curves!" as if you're no longer a woman because of your natural shape, or people who end up saying that slender women are abnormal, anorexic, unfeminine, ugly.. because there ARE women who are naturally model-thin, and you do not need to empower larger women at the expense of anyone else. It is possible to be beautiful and healthy whether you're over or under the "ideal" weight, and there is no need to insult either weight.

The real women have curves was the tagline for a firming cream, you wouldn't expect a model thin woman to have need for a firming cream...

What i beleive the actual message behind these ads are :

"real beauty beauty comes in all shapes and sizes and ages"

You don't have to be 19, and look like a super model to be considered beautiful...

I think it's a great message for young girls and young women especially... and hopefully the boys will listen as well and not expect women to look like the women that are found in various states of undress all over the internet.

The fat women are behind the white background, right? They're all within 5 (I can stretch my imagination and believe 10) pounds of "average" for their height, and one of them actually has ribs showing.

The people who make comments about the fat women getting their chance are your typical "internet male" (see: http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=2200)

I don't think those women are fat, but I don't want to see fat people advertising anything. The vast majority of fat people are fat and unhealthy because of their own actions. Showing fat people in advertising will make it seem OK to be chunky and nasty. Too many of my tax dollars go towards treating diseases that are caused by one too many twinkies in too short of a time period. I also don't want to see starving people advertise things either.

Besides, anybody who gets depressed because of what some advertiser thinks probably needs to reexamine their priorities in life.

That would be 95% of America.

But some fat people aren't fat and unhealthy because of their own actions. That's like saying skinny people are skinny and attractive because of their own actions. Nearly all of my friends in high school and most in college are "skinny." Of those, a large majority eat way more than they should and just party/play videogames all day and all night. They do not exercise and they eat obscene amounts. They stay skinny. People like me eat the average amount and stay fat and unhealthy. Could I be skinny and healthy? Sure, but my "fatitude" is not attributed to eating abnormally unhealthy. Some people are born with extremely bad metabolism. Some are born with really good metabolism. Your lifestyle doesn't determine how fat you are in every situation. On top of that, there is nothing wrong with being chunky and nasty. Some people are born like that. I guess all the chunky and nasty people in the world should gather around and take part in the chunky and nasty genocide just because they have their parents genes.

The people I do not have remorse for are those that make themselves fat. If I eat completely healthy and do not drink softdrinks, I do lose about 30 pounds of the weight I'm at now, but I'm still considered "fat" physically, and I don't just mean the medical fat. I'm talking if you asked a stranger if I was fat, they'd say "yes." If skinny people do not have to eat healthy to stay skinny, then saying a fat person is lazy because they don't live a lifestyle of lettuce and water is hypocrisy. A person that eats 5000 calories a day and is fat doesn't deserve remorse, but some people (like me) would have to eat 500 calories a day for the rest of their life to maintain their suggested body weight.

Sorry for going on and on, but this subject is basically directed at overweight people. :) PS: a woman can be considerably overweight and be downright hot. Many of the girls at my school are considered ugly by all of my skinny friends...they're also the guys that have never had a girl before. Chubby girls are the best; I find them way more attactive than skinny girls. :thumbsup:

-Lasereth

wait..those women are fat? since when? they look like normal healthy people to me.

Did you post this to stir up some shit? My sisters and some of my friends are large women who are certainly not "nasty" and have struggled with their weight all of their adult lives. I find your comments terribly offensive. You succeeded in stirring me up. :hmm:

I always saw Rubens' nudes as beautiful, sexy women, but I doubt your mind would be changed if you viewed them. You can find Rubens' art at google "images."

No, I did not post to "stir up some shit." I simply stated my opinion. It's OK for me to have an opinion that differs from yours, I promise.

We could debate the whole "It's not my fault that I'm fat" argument forever, but you won't change my mind, and I won't change your mind.

I don't think regular girls have problems getting dates because of TV commercials. Most men have no problem with a girl who doesn't look like a supermodel. Fat girls probably don't get many dates, just as fat guys probably don't get many dates. It has nothing to do with what's on TV. Most regular people just aren't initially attracted to fat people.

Are you implying that people are born with their desire to lust after skinny, non-overweight people?

I think people certainly base their desires on what is force fed to them through the various forms of media. There are cultures where heavier people are desirable, whereas in America it is the opposite. Why is that?

I think it has a lot to do with what's on TV, because people often rely on television to determine what society wants and accepts on the whole.

I suspect that if a child was raised in an environment that made overweight people beautiful and desirable, then they would have a pretty high chance of desiring a person of similiar build themself.

Also, in your post you say:

Again, I would ask you why this is? I question the statements truth, but for the sake of discussion, let's assume it is a true statement. Why aren't "regular" people attracted to "fat" people?

In Roman culture, it was considered a symbol of prosperity to be overweight. Just saying.

That would be obvious, unless you chose to actually read up on the literature regarding obesity. :rolleyes:

The phrase "Rubenesque" came about in recognition of the voluptuous women he depicted in his art.

http://www.mystudios.com/art/bar/rub...ment-paris.jpg

hmm .. mmm. ... hmm.

i do think what dove's doing is pretty fucking cool.

i like the idea of encompassing a more complete idea of beauty/etc ...

complete but healthy.

the women in the pic posted, afaik could all be in the healthy range.
the idea of beauty/attractiveness does need to be expanded.

not just size-wise ... (and even then, i'm one of those who thinks most everybody can at least be in the healthy range ..) ...
but height, proportions, unconventiality (pierced/tatooed, whatever) ... all that stuff.
would be nice to have it all included in what is considered 'attractive'.

[tangent]
on the other hand ... i don't think it's been brought up in this thread, but there's a similar thread on a fashion forum i frequent ...
for 'fashion' models, i still think tall and thin does it best. runway, at least.
although i wouldn't mind seeing shorter/'unconventional' women in editorials ...
[/tangent]

anyways - in summary.

real women are very cool by me... so long as they're healthy and shit, there definitely ought to be a bigger variety of 'acceptability'.

I am in full agreement with Maleficent here.

I have met some very beautiful and sexy people in which their outside appearence had nothing to do with their attractiveness. And I think it would be great if this message reached all of the closed minded people and open their minds to what real life is all about.

2/3rds (66%) of the adults in the U.S. are overweight, and approximately 34 percent of the population is obese. Though I don't like the thought of people having low self esteem due to body images, I also don't like the idea of promoting being over-weight as normal.

What I'm driving at here is, that perhaps we should focus on the health problems associated with being overweight, as opposed to promoting the notion that being on the heavy side is ideal. Obesity has been on a steady upward incline nationwide since the 1980's, so by saying, "it's ok" we might actually be hurting the effort to thin out and reduce weight problems in the United States.

Just my 2 cents on Dove's campaign

The women in the Dove commercials look pretty normal to me. I saw a TV news show the other day where a commentator said that the Dove campaign was doomed to failure. She said that advertizing was not about reality and even overweight women will not want to use what will become known as the "fat girl's soap".

It will be interesting to see how successful this ad campaign turns out to be for Dove in the long run. Right now it is getting them plenty of publicity.

Anyone who begins referring to Dove as 'fat girl's soap' should be drug out in the street and beaten along with the woman who said this. Jesus.

No one brought up that argument. Your post made it sound like fat people are fat because they eat too much and don't want to make the effort to change it. That's not the case. There are many people who are fat because of their own actions, but there are just as many who are fat because of their genes. There's no debate about that, it's fact. It's just as true with skinny people...some have extremely high metabolism and some don't. It's ignorant to say that fat people can't complain because they could change themselves when skinny people can eat what they want and do absolutely nothing and never gain a single pound. Eating 500 calories a day and exercising hours and hours per week to live the life of a "normal, skinny person" that does nothing to control their weight doesn't sound like fun to me.

-Lasereth

The media sucks....they'll exploit anything...

There is nothin wrong with any of the women pictured in that ad look. I see very few women at work, at the mall or at the gym, that look like like they should be supermodels....

The Dove campaign is driven by a fine idea. As for the ladies in it, they're nice too. Having said that, I have to admit that I prefer slimmer figures. Having read a few topics on this campaign in various places on the internet, I have to say that according to most people, I would be considered fucked up, or out of touch with reality because of what I like (not that I overly care about random people's opinions). Curves may be all right to most, but some people simply prefer something else - not because they're "internet males" or insensitive, chauvinist pricks.

For the last decade or two all media promoted the slim figure as something people should want (not that it changed anything - obesity rates increased, as far as I know). This resulted in a lot of people being harassed for the fact that they were overweight. Now that the full body (aka "women with curves ;)) ideal is emerging as a more popular option for the media to promote, I see that it's more common to lash out at thin girls and portray them as "not real women" or some such nonsense. There's room for everybody. Won't we ever learn?

I love a woman with curves. Married one and I always thought it was a bit disturbing and ignorant how society doesn't mind a man being curvy but if a woman has curves anywhere other than her chest or butt, it's not acceptable. Bah!

I also think it would have been nice to include a few thin models in that campaign to mix in. Show that a REAL WOMAN is any human being with a vagina...regardless of weight, race, or age.

EDIT: I should have said a real woman is any human being with two X chromosomes. Not all female human beings are born with vaginas. Whether there's some general mutations in the development phase or maybe an addicent later in life, to say that in order to be a woman you need a vagina is still ignoring those who may not have one through no fault of their own, but still carry the double-x chromosome that designates them as the female of the species.

I think it's celebrating the diversity of women's looks and i like that and i think it's a good thing for young women to see.

What i would like to see is the campaign add is a little more diversity, some thin, some 'overwieght' and some average women, some with small breasts and some with large, not just all size 10-12 like in their current campaign. I'd like to see them expand the concept but overall i think it's a good step.

Sweetpea

How about older women whose curves have migrated to other places? :)

Looks in mirror...bad idea, Elf

Or even two X chromosomes.

Gilda

dove knew this campaign would sell the product..andmake women like dove more.
having been a cynic..it is a pretty good message it sends out:) :lol:

All of these women look amazing. In shape, not fat, standard mesomorphs. They should do the campaign based on a random sampling of women from any neighbourhood street. Take mine for example, all of the women on this add would make the women on my street self conscious.

These women are not even close to being fat...

I am far more distrurbed by the need to sell firming cream...

Here's the Dove Real Woman campaign for Japan:

http://www.dove-realbeauty.jp

According to this ad, all Japanese women are thin with perfectly flat stomachs. Maybe they are, I don't have a lot of knowledge about Japanese women, but it doesn't seem to reflect differences in women.

For an ad campaign that is supposed to promote real beauty, and these women are supposed to portray that beauty, then why do they need to use Dove's products at all? In theory, they shouldn't require any special products.

someone please correct me if i'm wrong, but i think that in countries like japan, weight wasn't much of an issue because traditional japanese diet is low in fat and carbs anyway. it's only recently, i think, after the adoption of western diets that japan is only starting to see an increase in problems with obesity.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1318808.shtml

"Fat" or overweight people certainly are not responsible for what they are?
And anyone who deosn't look stick thin is considered "overwieght" when you go check out the "weight calculators" on the internet.
For example, for me to be consider the "ideal weight" according to their standards, I have to be less than 109 pounds! I'd have to literally starve myself to get that thin!
I dont eat much..but still I'm considered overweight. I can't help that I have curvy genes and that my body is curved in all the wrong places. every culture has different genes, some have curvier hips, some have no hips even if overweight, some have tummies..it's not thier fault.

I do not see any fat women in that picture.

The campaign is a small step in the right direction.

However, it's far better for us to be able to change ourselves than it is to have to be led by advertisers.

Real women have diversified body types that shouldn't be catergorized as either stick or curvaceous. ;)

That's exactly it. As corny as their advertisment with the little girls (the one where they each wish "my hair was blonde" or "my eyes were blue" or "I didn't have freckles") is, it's great material for television audiences; I hope that these ideas will integrate into other parts of the popular media. I think with women like Queen Latifa becoming popular, who are gorgeous and a "plus size," Hollywood will eventually try to broaden its aesthetic image. I only wish this movement were free of its commercialism.

I think we should find him, then show him some fat people in their underwear, just to teach him a lesson.

Good advert, although i'm not in line for any firming cream at the moment (unless i missed a meeting), its good that one company has taken the first steps into bringing advertising back into plausable boundaries.

I know this is an old thread, but it was silly then and silly now.

First those woman are in shape. Maybe a bit of a belly on one, but barely. Now walk down any-street USA. You will be lucky to find more than a handful of women in that good of shape over 30.

This has very little to do with realistic self image for anyone other than anorexics.

It did get a lot of free plublicity, but come on, there is nothing to see here.

I love it when ad campaigns can motivate people by doing shit like this.

These women aren't fat. Hell, a couple have ribs showing. If they really wanted to make a statement, they'd actually use fat people. People would then be less likely to buy thier product. It's how human nature works. It's part of the "halo" effect.

They are trying to make money. This allows them to get rabid fans from the "empowered, real women" demographic, and doesn't lose them any customers. Good job Dove.

While I appreciate the senitments and the models (some of the most beautiful women I've seen in advertisements) of Dove, I don't think the message will be able to be reached until the entire parent company decides to go along with it. Unilever is using two completely different approaches with their products:

Dove: All women are beautiful, we can just help you feel prettier.
Axe: Skinny horny women want you. You stud.

Kinda contradictory adverts, neh?

And I don't think Dove ever said that they were campainging for "fat women," just women of varying healthy shapes and sizes.

This is why I'm disappointed that Wal Mart stopped using employees as models in their fliers. I actually used to look forward to them just to see the people, because they were normal.

Otherwise, Wal Mart is devil, but that was one thing they did that I really liked.

If there's one thing the internet porn sites have taught us, there are no "regular" people anymore. That's why sites that had women who looked like the girl next door (or may have actually BEEN the girl next door) boomed while playboy.com languished in unprofitability.

No it's knowing your demographic.

Play to the perceived insecurities of the women who would use a "firming" cream. Play to the pre-pubescent fantasies of the average male to get them to use a product they likely would not normally.

Personally I'm looking for the Axe Boby spray that will make the women in the dove ad go crazy. :thumbsup:

Considering the outrageous idealized beauty of what the idea woman in Japan would have to look like to compete with the zepplin chested size negative two sex kittens the Japanese male idolizes....
Yeah they probably are average.

They look a little portly to me.

But then again, my wife would be one of the women so many fatties derisively call a "stick", or some such thing.

I always find it funny and a little sad that people defend people's "right" to be 20 or 30 pounds overweight, but are quick to try to mock any woman under 120 pounds.

I'm considered just barely overweight - not by those scales online but by my Dr who knows all the aspects about my health. I was NOT even close to overweight only a year ago. I was healthy, active and even a bit muscular. I have gained only about 20 lbs and then lost 5 of that. BUT I know I don't have nearly as much muscle so that 20 lbs is only a part of the fat that I gained. I lost muscle mass. I am working on getting into better shape and I can feel it but it's a slow tedious discouraging process and I only have 20 lbs to loose.
I have developed an appreciation of those people who are severely overweight who manage to loose even 15 lbs. BECAUSE I know just a little bit better of how easily the weight can come on and how HARD it is to loose it. I gained my weight and loss my muscle mass through no fault of my own. Since last winter I have been trying to loose and have been eating about 1100 - 1200 calories a day and making sure at least some of that is fresh fruit and vegetables. I eat well. I got to where I am because of injury and surgery. With a broken foot, three surgeries, and trouble with my thyroid I was hampered in my activities. I was forcibly imobilized by the broken foot. Any job was made ten times as difficult and almost dangerous to complete. The surgeries were all in my abdomin which slowed a LOT of movements. Running was painful because of the broken foot for at least 3 months after I was allowed to walk. It still can be painful (since the bones never fused) and slows me down at times.
I'm more aware now though of the circumstances that put a person into a heavier weight catagory. It's not even always genes but bad eating habits that parents allow the child to get into. Lessons learned when younger are terribly difficult to relearn later and weight is even more difficult to control then.

There are fat people here in Japan too.

I think this ad is only for America.

I don't think it would take on well here in Japan.

And they do all look fine. I don't see where the the fat woman are. Shit. If that is fat, the man who said that is going to be lonely for a long time.

That is what real (beautiful) woman look like.

They DO look good. They are healthy. Because everyone is different, and that's good. But to actually be obese (enough with the "fatties" vs. "skinnies" crap) isn't healthy. None of those women are obese. Who would say that being unhealthy is cool? Sheesh.

The point is - they are beautiful, but they are not the conventionally sized model. The average model is at least 5'8" and usually no more than 120lbs. That's what you're usually looking at. That's why these women are unusual in the media.

i drive past this billboard every day. I need to slow down and appreciate it. Speaking as a healthy male, this is a beautiful collection of women.

It is worthwhile to note that none of the women featured in this advertising campaign was above...a size 6 (i think). I don't remember the actual sizes, but I'm positive that the largest model there was one or two sizes below the national average.

Back when I was interning at a commercial production company last year and this campaign hit, it was HUGE in the advertising world. Nike tried following up with their own and it flopped big time.

personally, I think its a great advertising campaign. The women are beautiful and realistic. It shows a realistic goal for women to strive for as well, if they aren't there yet. This is in stark contrast to the bony models I'm used to seeing on 5th avenue and broadway. They just have a genetic predisposition for it, which makes it an unrealistic goal for the majority of women.

In the late 1990's, people who never worried about being fat all of a sudden woke up obese thanks to new health standards. I'm a 130 lb., 5' 5" female, and if I use the right criteria, I'm pushing hard against obesity. (I'm hour-glass shaped and most women are not. Like REALLY hour-glassy...)

Obviously, there are very few 500 lb. people who are healthy; no denying. However, if a woman is 250 or 300 lbs., is healthy, mobile, exercising, why do we feel the need to change her?

Besides, more people become fat as a result of extreme dieting and destroying their metabolisms. I'm definately someone who went through that as someone who had anorexia as a teenager. After hitting my low weight in the eighties, I almost ballooned up to 160 when I just started eating normally. It took my metabolism FIVE YEARS to settle back, after five years of abuse, about two of those being really extreme. I can't imagine what ten years of severe dieting would do to a body. I think if that were the case, I'd easily weigh 300 lbs. by the time I was 25.

Maybe if someone had said to me, "Hey, your ass is fat, but you're still an attractive, nice, worthy human being, I'd weigh 115 or so, and I wouldn't have these god-awful stretch marks from doubling my weight in a matter of a couple years. Maybe if we recognized there's more than one type of beauty in the world, life would be better for everyone.

I'm confident there are no 300 pound women on the planet that wouldn't have their health improved by dropping weight. Let's not get crazy here.

I can think of six 300 lb. people who are healthy and active. Get to know some fat people. And just how fit do you need anymore anyway? I've got a very physical job, but I'm an exception. Doesn't really help or hinder anything whether or not you can run six miles or not.

Health is not a number. While I may feel achy and tired at 150, you may be the most mobile, fit person on the planet at 240. Why can't we promote the idea of health at any size?

Yeah, ditto. 180? Sure. But 280? No way. Not unless she's 6'6" and a lifting queen.

I'm not saying you can't be healthy at a larger size than someone else. What I'm saying is that it would be pretty difficult to be healthy for anyone, based simply on physiological fact, at 300 pounds.

I said women, like you did, and I call bullshit.

I weigh close to 300, and at 6'8", I can tell you that I'm anything but in shape and healthy. I maintain my opinion that the women in these ads are all healthy and within a healthy distance of their "ideal" weight; they may look much more substantial than your aveage heroin chic model, but they are not any more "real" than most. I can see ribs on 5 of the 6.

Exactly my point. They are healthy. They are unusual in the ad world because they are reasonably shaped - not anorexic or ridiculously thin, but reasonable and healthy. But not the usual touted media model. That's the difference. By regular media standards, I am too heavy. But if you met me, you (I hope) would not think so at all. Because *I* am normal, like the Dove women, and *they* are not.

Six of these people are women. Most of them have jobs that require them to stand at least six out of eight hours. There's nothing to call bullshit on. Besides, it's pretty well known that women generally carry more fat than men anyway. There are people who exist who simply can't lose the weight eating a normal 1600 to 1800 calorie diet. It makes little sense to me to try to make them feel bad because we think they might be unhealthy. I drink soda and coffee everyday, but no one's wagging fingers in my face saying that I'm killing myself and destroying my heart.

WHY don't you think someone can be fat and otherwise healthy? What exactly is your understanding of the biochemics of fat that would lead you to understand that it's always bad for you? Tell me what you know.

When I want to loose weight I eat about 1800 calories a day but I'm over 6 feet tall and a male with more muscle mass than any female with my lifestyle would have. If I did the 'normal' for me I'd not lose weight either (I think its something like 2600 calories by the numbers). The 'normal' doesn't mean shit to the individual, we all have different physiologies to a point and what works for person 1 won't always work for person 2.

So therefore this 'I can't lose weight' claim is total bullshit. No person violates the laws of physics. If you eat less calories than your body is burning you WILL lose the weight. Anything else is just a cop out.

To me its not a health issue, I could care less if people want to live unhealthy life styles, smoke, drink, and eat what you want, but for gods sake don't whine about it afterwords.

The real issue here has little to do with health and more to do with sexual attraction. Women who are overly thin are not getting overly thin because they think its healthy. Women who are fat do not feel bad about themselves because people look at them and think 'unhealthy'. So unless you can change what look is considered sexually attractive, nothing will change.

Being fat and being healthy are mutually exclusive. And as far as that calorie nonsense, if you intake less calories than you burn, you lose weight. It's that simple.

Actually, there's truth to the "I can't lose weight," bullshit. Our bodies have different plateaus. My body simply doesn't want to weigh any less than 80-some lbs. I know that from suffering from an eating disorder as a teenager. You can also slow your metabolism to a grind from poor diet for years. (I know this from personal experience.) I eat about 1.5x the calories I used to eat a couple years ago and I weigh less. There are a lot of complex variables when it comes to metabolism. It's not just "calories in, calories out."

I do agree with your statement that women or men don't get overly thin because they think it's healthy. However, I think fat people do feel bad in part because of being told their fat is inherently unhealthy. (I'm sure the disgusting part probably has a negligible effect. :D )

As far as changing what's sexually attractive, if you mean culturally, not gonna happen. However, what's sexually attractive to me and what's sexually attractive to you are different. It's different for everyone on the planet. If someone is greatly attracted to fat women, great. I don't think we should treat it like a mental illness.

I also agree that whining is worthless. However, companies should be aware of the repercussions of not recognizing the fat market, or treating them badly. If you've not recognized it, there are a hell of a lot of fat people in America.

Really? You mean to tell me there are no fat athletes who are healthy people? You also avoided my question: What is your understanding of the biochemics of fat that leads you to believe it's always unhealthy?

Regarding "calorie nonsense," read my reply above.

Way off topic, but I just love how amazing varied skin tone can be.
On topic, I think the overall sentiment is clear here. People like the ad and the message, myself included. It takes a lot more than one ad to convince an industry though.

Those are all fine-looking women. Dove knows what all men know, really: a healthy-looking woman is a sexy-looking woman. And all those women are certainly, ah, healthy-looking -- good skin, shapely and vigorous ('cause there's muscle under that padding). In the real world, outside the fashion magazines, women like these can get as much attention from the male sex as they want.

I've seen a lot of thin waifs who _didn't_ look all that healthy, had bad skin from the dieting, probably weren't vigorous enough to open a catsup bottle on their own -- and certainly didn't seem all that attractive to me.

Yes, if you are fat you aren't healthy. As I said, they are mutually exclusive terms. And I answered your other question. My applicable knowledge of biochemics is how calorie intake works. If you intake less calories than you burn, you lose weight. Are you being obtuse on purpose, or what?

I think you need to read a biology book or something.

Okay. Duh. But my point is, are you aware of the finer workings of the metabolism? If ANYONE starts on a reduced calorie diet, their metabolism tends to hault. Some people more so than others have it occur. Not everyone loses weight. At the very least, some people don't keep it off. The weight's not the problem anyway.

Fat's necessary in the human body. As far as fat people always being unhealthy, not true. If we're defining healthy as able to run a marathon with decent blood pressure and LOW cholesterol, as well as work in a physically demanding field (police officer), my own brother fits that bill. (He's 6' and was 250 or so when he ran the marathon. He's about 240 or so now, and definately a "hefty boy.") Fat does not necessary mean unhealthy. (Click for the link. I'm not pulling this out of my ass.)

Edit: You also didn't address my question about fat athletes. I answered my own question. That's fine. Dodging questions is fine.

I understand that metabolisms are different and that they have different speeds. However, my point stands.


Fat DOES always mean unhealthy. Having fat is completely necessary for the body to function. But we aren't talking about removing all the fat from a body (which I don't think is possible), we are talking about fat people. And fat people, by definition, aren't healthy. As far as your brother is concerned, yes, he can do feats with his body, and that's great. I'm not sure if his 250 pounds is mostly muscle or not, so I can't say if he is fat or not. But yes, fat people are by definition not healthy. If they were, we wouldn't call them fat. We would call them fit, or buff, or built, or whatever.

I did, but not the way you wanted me too apparently, so I'll do it again. Athletes can certainly be capable of doing althletic things while still being fat. In fact, it is often good for athletes to have extra fat on them due to the increased mass. But that isn't because fat is more useful than muscle, it's because they can't put any more muscle on. :) There are loads of baseball players that are fat. In fact, if you look at competitive women's softball, most of the pitchers are fat. That doesn't mean that their size is a problem for them - it helps them put something extra on the ball. That doesn't mean that they wouldn't be healthier if they dropped weight, which is my point.

Also, I love debating this with you, but please stop trying to play the wounded victim card. I'm answering your questions; you just don't like my answers and think I'm wrong.

WHY is fat unhealthy? My point is, you've just said little more than, "It's bad." That's fine. Why? If their joints and mobility and blood pressure, etc, are good, I fail to see a problem. There are people who easily define themselves as fat and fit.

To me, if someone has to eat an unreasonably small amount of food and exercise all the time just to stay "not fat," it hardly seems worth the effort to stay thin. I certainly don't have the willpower to eat 1000 calories or less just to maintain ideal thinness. Do you?

Not being a victim here. You're just not directly answering things until I ask again, it seems.

I think you two may be arguing over different interpretations of the word "fat".

sadeianlinguist says that he knows people who are very athletic, healthy and who are also, say, "large people", and hence they are 'fat'. This disproves the claim that fat people are necessarily unhealthy.

Toaster126 seems to say that if someone is athletic and healthy, then they should not be considered fat, rather that they are 'built' or 'buff'. Fat people are unhealthy by definition: a person is fat if and only if the amount of fat in their body so high that it is causing them to have health problems (or is likely to do so in the future) .

And yet so very few of them would call themselves fat and be happy about it. America (and Europe is starting to get there too) is over all quite fat. I'd not be surprised to see that in the over 30 crowd a majority are FAT (and I'm not talking BMI fat, but guts and cheese thighs fat). Yet this 'fat' market isn't 'in'. While some may think fat is sexy, most don't, most wish they were thin.

So while the reality is that America is fat, no one is proud of it, no one wants to reminded of it, and no one really wants to see it on TV, and very few want to see it naked.

The health risks are a happy excuse to be thin, but if you asked a majority of men if they wanted a thin smoker or a fat non-smoker for a GF I'd be willing to bet most are picking the smoker.

To quickly answer the "Why is fat unhealthy" question, a simplistic answer is that the heart muscle has to work harder to support a heavier person being athletic/active. Fat tends to accumulate in the arteries, and when the heart pumps harder during activity, there's a greater chance of fat breaking up into the valves and bloodways, blocking the flow and causing a heart attack/stroke/whatever (weekend warrior syndrome).

Also it's much harder on the joints (esp. knees) to have to support a lot of extraneous weight.

Excess fat has been linked to worsening all kinds of ailments, from asthma to diabetes to alzheimers (sp?). It can even interfere with sleep patterns.

Therefore, I think I can safely agree with Toaster that fat = unhealthy. Yes, as a general rule, it's true. And in those who appear to defy the generalities, I'd venure to say that there is a decent amount of denial going on.

Also, yes--if one intakes less calories than one uses, one will lose weight. That has nothing to do with a screwed up metabolism. Yes metabolisms can get screwed up, making it very difficult to use up more calories than one intakes, but it still holds true. Of course it would be better to correct the metabolism before being concerned about weight loss.

Hi, I'm not very knowledgable in this area, but some people are saying 250 pounds bla bla bla and throwing figures everywhere, but a weight does not show (well most of the time) whether a person is fat or not.

I am skinny. If I packed on fat, and said I weighed 180, that would be normal. Yet I'm obese. If I'm heavy, but I'm made of pure muscle, I could be 210 and more but still be healthy and happy;

There's a difference.

I have to say, even though I have no desire for skin cream (nor did I even notice what was being sold), I really enjoy those Dove ads. That's what my body looks like, too, and I love my body. :D I am a 5-2" woman and weigh around 130 lbs, and even though my body shape is rather short and stocky, I know I'm in damn good shape. Using BMI as a measure of health, I'm in the upper range of normal for that height... and I'd guess most of the women in that Dove ad are in that "normal" range, which is awesome.

But for measuring health, I've actually been surprised by an often overlooked figure: one's resting heart rate. Since I've been working out 3-5 times a week (for the last 9 months or so), a couple of nurses have commented that my resting pulse is very low (58-ish, last I checked) when I've had doctor's appointments. I didn't know what that meant, but they explained that a low resting pulse indicates very good cardiac health and usually means that the person is exercising regularly. So from now on I am using my resting pulse as a good indication of health... I would never use "body size" or whatever bullshit that is to check in on my health status.

Yeah, BMI isn't a good barometer for those of us who have added a lot of muscle to our frames. According to the BMI, I'm borderline obese, but if someone labeled me as obese, I'd have to label them as delusional. :)

I applaud the campaign. I think the guys who make women feel they need to be size zeros (and the chicks that do this, too) are dispicable! I've dated girls that were a size 6 and girls that were an 18-20... I've not liked or disliked either or found either more or less attractive and especially not due to their size.

Gah, I hate people! *sigh*

by merriam webster--the main definition for the adjective "fat": notable for having an unusual amount of fat.

pretty broad. if we were in subsaharan africa, fat would be pretty slim indeed. if we were in fiji, fat would be something very very large. 'Obese' is probably what toaster means when he says 'fat'. (obese meaning "excessively fat".)

No, I meant "fat" when I said "fat". :D