What the hell is wrong with people? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

JumpinJesus · 08-11-2005, 09:36 PM

This is somewhat lengthy, so bear with me.

I live on the 13th floor of a high rise which gives me a good view most of the time. However, I witnessed something last night that has me wondering just what the hell is wrong with people.

Sometimes when I have trouble sleeping I look out our window and watch people on the street below. Last night was one of those nights. It was around 3:30 and I couldn't get to sleep so I wander over to the window and look down.

I see a group of 6 guys walking very slowly down the street, stopping every few feet and looking around. I immediately begin thinking that these guys are up to no good and so decide to continue watching. They cross the street and start heading up the street away from me. Approaching them is a woman walking alone. At this point, the group of guys form a line and block the sidewalk. Suspecting something is about to go wrong, I grab my phone, just in case.

The woman walks out into the street and one of the guys walks out to block her path. I flip my phone open and put my fingers on the buttons.

The girl walks further out into the street and 2 other guys walk out to further block her path. She turns and runs and one of the guys starts running after her. Just as I decide it's time to call, a police car turns the corner with it's strobes on. I breathe a sigh of relief and close my phone, assuming someone else was witnessing this as well and was less hesitant than I to call. The guys don't run but instead walk over to the police car. My view is now blocked by trees but after a few minutes, I see 4 of the guys start walking back the way they came. From my vantage point, I can see the woman they were chasing. She had walked around the block and was now walking down the street about to run into the group again. I think everything is fine, though, because I can still see the police strobes about half a block up.

The 4 guys stop, apparently not seeing the woman, who crosses the street and begins to hurry up a bit. Apparently the 4 guys now see her and start walking towards the corner. They stop at the corner and look around the building they're standing beside. 2 of the guys look back towards the police car. After about 30 seconds, the other 2 take off running full speed toward the woman. She turns, sees them, and takes off running too, yelling, "Somebody help me! Help me!"

The 2 guys chase her into the middle of the street and catch up to her. They knock her down and begin kicking and beating her. They're in the middle of the street doing this as a car approaches. I'm thinking, "Thank God, someone else is seeing this and will help her."

No.

The car slows down, swerves around them, and keeps driving. At this point, someone runs out of the McDonalds and chases to 2 guys away who begin running back in my direction. At this moment, 4 police cars come from each direction and block the guys at the corner. The woman is laying in the middle of the street, not moving, and cars are just driving by her. No one stopped.

No one stopped. They just fucking drove around her and kept going. 3 cars.

The only person who helped her was the man who ran out of the McDonalds.

Now, I tried to justify why the first car didn't stop. It's reasonable to think that this person didn't want to become a victim, either. But the other 3 cars? After she was alone in the street? What kind of fucking cowards were they? Will it ever bother them that they didn't stop to help?

I try to think about what I would have done if I were a driving by when this happened. I honestly wish to believe that I would stop. Only 4 cars were on the road at this point and all 4 drove by without stopping, so I have to wonder...is everybody like this? And if so, just what the hell is wrong with people?

The good news - I think - was that I don't think the woman was hurt badly because she was able to walk away.

alansmithee · 08-11-2005, 09:56 PM

This is a well-documented phenomena. People tend to stay out of situations like this. In the '70's there was a big case in NYC where a woman was repeatedly stabbed to death in an apartment complex while people watched and didn't call any police. I can't remember enough of my psych classes to remember what the technical terms and motives for this type of behavior are (maybe someone who knows more in the field could explain) but it is accepted fact. Chances are, you wouldn't have stopped, and according to many tests, the fact that you were even bothering to call the police is more than what many people would do. As the number of people in a situation seem to rise, more an more people will rely on someone else to handle the situation.

k925 · 08-11-2005, 10:08 PM

I'm betting the passersby probably assumed the four police cars and officers had the scene under control.

Now I don't mean to be inflammatory here, but what were you doing the whole time? You scoffed at the drivers who didn't help, but all the while you were just standing up high watching it all happen. A short trip down an elevator and you could've done what you said the drivers should have.

Perhaps the force that kept you from springing into action also acted upon the drivers of those three cars? Looking back, it's easy to riddicule others for their faults, but not so much yourself.

(edit: looks like alansmithee and I were typing at the same time)

JStrider · 08-11-2005, 10:10 PM

with 2 guys beating on her I dont know how much i could do... especially if their signifigantly bigger then me, armed or have more friend nearby...

I would definently try to do something... call the cops... pull over and yell at em... hit them with my car... i dunno...

when she was laying down in the street... i definently woulda stopped...

as risk of personal injury goes down my helpfulness in a situation like that would go up...

Siege · 08-11-2005, 10:18 PM

The psychological term is named "bystander apathy"

Very common phenomena. Been witness to it myself a few times.

It basically states that people will assume someone else will do it. This also leads to group ignorance. People will only do things when other people are doing them also (conformity), when everyone sees everyone else doing nothing, they do nothing. Same goes the other way, remember lynchings back in the day? That's how it works, conformity. A couple people get all riled up and yell and beat people, suddenly the crowd turns into a mob.

sadistikdreams · 08-11-2005, 10:45 PM

Oy. I've talked about this kind of thing to alot of people, and I always said I'd step in, no hesitation. Well, something like this did happen, I was a bystander, and I did just stand there. For about a minute. I was aware of the whole bystander thing, and I didn't want to be one. I stepped in.

Journeyman · 08-11-2005, 10:59 PM

Cost ya money and there really is no time to think of things like this, but throwing a chair out your own window and yelling at them fellas mighta scared them off. If you had so much as a toy gun, at 13 floors they woulda bounced if you could bluff well enough.

Having never been in such a situation, I can't say what I would have done from the vantage point of the drivers in the four cars, but I can say that I'd be damned ashamed of myself if I didn't stop and help.

Martian · 08-11-2005, 11:35 PM

I can't say what I'd do in this sort of situation. This is a high stress situation and that means that what you or I think we'd do goes right out the window. Under high duress everything changes. Based on past experience I know that I tend to react well in poor circumstances like these, so I like to think I'd help in any way possible (including getting into a fight with four unarmed men, if necessary) but can I say that with confidence? No, absolutely not.

Gilda · 08-12-2005, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee

This is a well-documented phenomena. People tend to stay out of situations like this. In the '70's there was a big case in NYC where a woman was repeatedly stabbed to death in an apartment complex while people watched and didn't call any police.

Kitty Genovese, in 1964. 38 different witnesses saw her repeatedly beaten and stabbed, in separate attacks, yet nobody called the police for 35 minutes. During that time, the attacker left the scene, then came back to finish killing her. The police were on scene 3 minutes after the call. Had any of the witnesses called the police in the first few minutes of the incident, she would have survived.

Quote:

I can't remember enough of my psych classes to remember what the technical terms and motives for this type of behavior are (maybe someone who knows more in the field could explain) but it is accepted fact. Chances are, you wouldn't have stopped, and according to many tests, the fact that you were even bothering to call the police is more than what many people would do. As the number of people in a situation seem to rise, more an more people will rely on someone else to handle the situation.

The Bystander Effect and Diffusion of Responsibility.

Quote:

One dynamic brought forth was the Bystander Effect. This theory speculates that as the “number of bystanders increases, the likelihood of any one bystander helping another decreases.” As a result, additional time will pass before anyone seeks outside help for a person in distress. Another hypothesis is something called the Diffusion of Responsibility. This is simply a decrease in the feeling of personal responsibility one feels when in the presence of many other people. The greater the number of bystanders, the less responsibility the individual feels. In cases where there are many people present during an emergency, it becomes much more likely that any one individual will simply do nothing.
In essence, the 38 witnesses felt no responsibility to act because there were so many witnesses. Each one felt that the other witness would do something. Social psychology research supports the notion that Catherine Genovese had a better chance of survival if she had been attacked in the presence of just one witness.

Would I have stopped under such circumstances as described in the OP? Hell no, it would have just provided the attackers with another victim. I would, however, have called 911. That's why the service exists in the first place. Next time, don't hesitate. Call 911 and tell the dispatcher what's going on; if it turns out that the girl isn't harmed by the men, no harm has been done. It's better to play it safe in such a situation.

Gilda

Martian · 08-12-2005, 12:25 AM

On a completely unrelated (and possibly slightly callous) note, am I the only one who's suddenly hearing the pastor's sermon at the beginning of Boondock Saints?

"Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men."

analog · 08-12-2005, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martian

On a completely unrelated (and possibly slightly callous) note, am I the only one who's suddenly hearing the pastor's sermon at the beginning of Boondock Saints?

No... as soon as he mentioned the people watched as she was stabbed repeatedly, i immediately started hearing him talking about Kitty Genovese.

As for me, I'd have sized up the competition. It was only 4 cars- it could have been 4 other women, could have been 4 people not sure enough of themselves to take on 2 large men (I assume they were at least average-sized). I, mysef, would have done something, and have in the past, but I carry things with which to protect myself (not firearms), and know some basic martial arts- so I'm usually confident for up to 3 men, unless they're over-sized.

Nothing ruins a night like trying to molest a young woman, and then getting the shit beat out of you by a random guy who pulls a bow staff out of his trunk (I keep my "real" one at home, I have a shorter 5' one that stays in my car because the full-length one won't fit in the trunk). It's a good way to get a shitload of large bruises and welts all over your body, too.

Xazy · 08-12-2005, 03:08 AM

Any expert will tell a woman in case of being raped, cry 'fire' not 'rape' because people are much more likely to come to help if there is a fire. Sad fact in some human nature, but still true.

d*d · 08-12-2005, 03:17 AM

such a walk on by society, I have stopped fights to help strangers out in a couple of situations, like in a club and i nearly got an ass whooping when I helped out someone who was about to get a beating from three other guys (he never thanked or even acknowleged my help but just fled as soon as the three guys turned their attention on me which pissed me off), just shouting OIY from a safe distance is usaully enough to suffice

Daoust · 08-12-2005, 03:27 AM

What's wrong with the world, you ask?

A member begins a discussion about how a woman was senselessly beaten and all we can come up with is the technical term from the university psych. textbooks for people who were watching but not helping. That is 100% the problem. Sickening.

I hear you implying that the aforementioned act is wrong, but on what level? Since so many of us have such a weak, disjointed moral code by which we judge these kinds of acts, we don't feel that we have the right, or the authority to call these acts what they are - WRONG! EVIL! Mankind is capable of, and consistently practices EVIL. Mankind has a sickness, and we all have it, some just hide it better than others.

I have no doubt that somebody somewhere on this site will have the audacity to proclaim that what these men did to this woman is perfectly acceptable, and fine, as long as it does not infringe on their own personal moral codes. Nobody has the right to tell anyone that what they are doing is wrong, they will say. Nobody has a moral code that is in anyway superior to anyone elses. Anyone who says they do is a zealot, a fanatic, an evangelical nut.

What's wrong with the world? Lots. What these men did is just a flagrant, out in the open example. How people react to it is equally the problem, in my opinion, (which is not more important or right than yours)

maleficent · 08-12-2005, 03:28 AM

So, as she was lying in the middle of the street, with cars driving around her, you didn't call the police or an ambulance for her? Why?

Did you grab your camera and try to take pictures of the guys to hand over when you called the police?

I think if you ask yourself why you didn't do anything, you will have the answer as to why others' didnt do anything.

3:30am in downtown Chicago? I'm sure that most people would make a lot of assumptions as to what's going on - and not want to get involved.

A few years back, I had gotten in to Newark quite late, and was in a cab heading home, because of a major construction project, the cabbie was taking side roads... at 2:00am in downtown Newark, not exactly wise... At a traffic light, we pulled up next to a fancy car (totally out of place) with a very young woman in it who was sobbing. I had the cabbie stop - who basically told me I was loco... and I asked the woman what was wrong... she was lost... we got her back to where she needed to go (Rich, white suburb) and when i told the story the next day, the response was - well she was probably t here in daddy's car to buy drugs... if anything happened to her-- she kinda asked for it... Well, there was no doubt she was there to buy drugs.. and while I'm all for thinning out the gene pool... if anything ever happened to this woman, I wouldn't be able to live with myself because I was in a position to help her and didnt/ Stupidity on her part isn't an excuse on my part to not do anything.

StephenSa · 08-12-2005, 07:49 AM

I definitely would stop to help someone lying in the street. Any man that would do less is less than a man. I also own firearms. I would have called 911 then if the police didn't respond in time I would have taken my 12 guage shotgun and proceeded downstairs and told these ass jacks to leave the woman alone and invited her into my building until she could call someone. Granted, I would have been scared poopless and with my luck the cops would show up just about the time I brandished the weapon but sometimes you just have to act. Admittedly I'd wait as long as I possibly could after calling 911. I'd give the police every oportunity to handle things but once she was physically attacked I'd have to react. I wasn't there so hard to say for sure but I have reacted to protect others in somwhat similar situations so I'd like to believe I'd help.

JumpinJesus · 08-12-2005, 07:53 AM

As far as the comments about me not doing anything. You're right. When it comes down to it, I acted just like the people in the cars. I hate to admit this, but I could just as easily have called 9-1-1 myself. I'm sure they got a few calls, but one more wouldn't hurt.

As for me not going down to help either, just as a few have mentioned, I don't know why I didn't. Well, actually, I do know. My thinking was: By the time I get down there, the ambulance will be there and someone else would have surely stopped. I partook in the same apathy that I am deriding, assuming someone else would take over in the situation.

It would be very easy for me to come up with all kinds of excuses for not throwing on some clothes and getting down there, but in the end, I would really have no justification for standing and watching. It just seems so much easier to justify in my own mind watching from my vantage point.

I'm hoping that this incident provokes me to seriously rethink my own actions.

JustJess · 08-12-2005, 08:02 AM

I can only hope that if I am presented with such a situation, I am able to tap into my usually-bossy-jump-into-other-people's-problems sort of energy and do something... hopefully not getting myself killed in the process. I would definitely call - I actually have my local precinct programmed into my cell for things like traffic lights not working and causing issues, shite like that. I don't know if I could overcome my fear and do more, but I hope so.

Makes me want to start carrying a weapon, so that I would have some leverage in such times.

cyrnel · 08-12-2005, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JumpinJesus

I hate to admit this, but I could just as easily have called 9-1-1 myself. I'm sure they got a few calls, but one more wouldn't hurt.

That's the killer. Everybody drifts along assuming someone else will do it. I've heard people say they don't want to bother the operators. I've done it. It took a few "what was I thinking" moments but now I'm a regular Mrs. Kravits if I see crap taking place.

If you think anyone should call, do it yourself. Now. The operators might need your perspective. Let them weed out repetitive calls.

maleficent · 08-12-2005, 08:06 AM

I honestly wasn't being negative when i asked the question -- but your own answer is the same one that everyone else had I'd bet... They figured someone else would do it. Guilty of apathy? Probably...

There's a quote that I honestly am too lazy to figure out who it's attributed to.. but it's something to the effect of "Evil prevails because good men do nothing."

StanT · 08-12-2005, 08:15 AM

While my dog is a complete and utter wuss, at 130# she can put on a good act if I provoke her. I've never been in a situation to confront anyone in the act, but I have taken her for a "walk" when things looked suspicious.

It's sexist as hell, but I'd probably just call 911 if it was a guy. I'd take the dog out if it was a woman (and have my wife call 911).

ngdawg · 08-12-2005, 10:56 AM

Like Mal, I would and have stopped to help, albeit not in a violent scenario.
And like that woman, I was in a situation where someone could have stepped up, but instead just watched as a crazy screaming stranger ran around my car punching the windows. I leaned on the horn, inched the car forward (this, in rush hour traffic), and was left to my own limited defenses.

Psycho Dad · 08-12-2005, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee

I can't remember enough of my psych classes to remember what the technical terms and motives for this type of behavior are but it is accepted fact.

And this applying of technical terms and accepting as fact for everything that mankind was able to deal with since we crawled out of the caves and started dragging knuckles is what I think is a big part of our problem. We can validate damn near any of our actions as long as an "expert" has deemed it normal human behavior because admitting our actions were wrong would lower our self-esteem.

Siege · 08-12-2005, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ngdawg

but instead just watched as a crazy screaming stranger ran around my car punching the windows.

This is just one of the many good reasons for people to own pepper spray or something.

JumpinJesus · 08-12-2005, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

I honestly wasn't being negative when i asked the question -- but your own answer is the same one that everyone else had I'd bet... They figured someone else would do it. Guilty of apathy? Probably...

There's a quote that I honestly am too lazy to figure out who it's attributed to.. but it's something to the effect of "Evil prevails because good men do nothing."

No worries, mal, I didn't take it as a negative, but it did get me thinking. During the event, part of me was in a state of disbelief that I was witnessing it. The other part of disbelief was that the police car who stopped initially was only a block and a half away, yet they still went ahead and assaulted her. They seemed wholly unconcerned that anyone was around, considering they were in the middle of the street.

It honestly didn't occur to me to grab my camera, but you make a good argument for me to keep it nearby at all times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyrnel

That's the killer. Everybody drifts along assuming someone else will do it.

That's pretty much exactly what was going through my mind. The odd thing is, 10 years ago I wouldn't have hesitated to call. I've called a few times before when I've witnessed events. Maybe I've just become a bit too jaded for my own good.

justjt · 08-13-2005, 12:00 PM

It is sad to say that what happened here is not surprising at all.
The people who didn't stop to help....well simply put...it was out of fear.
Fear of getting hurt, fear of the possible results of getting involved.

Everyone is wired a little differently and we all have or own thoughts on what is wrong and right and what we are willing to do to protect those standards.

I can't sit here and pass judgement on those folks in the car cause hell I don't even know what kind of people they are.

But I can say that karma can be a real bitch when it comes back around to you.....

Whenever I see someone in need of anykind of help I always point out to myself hey that could happen to someone you care about...I would hope that someone would have enough backbone to help them out...so do the right thing

MSD · 08-13-2005, 03:16 PM

Every time I've seen a situation in which I considered dialing 911, I went through the typical "someone else probably will," and "it'll probably turn out fine." Each time, I followed with, "That's how Kitty Genovese got killed," and dialed That one lesson in my HS senior psych class has stayed with me for years. Sadly, reporting drunk drivers to the State Police is not important enough to get a cruiser staked out for a speed trap (every few days, same spot,) to be called away from waiting to give out tickets and pursue a drunk driver. I can honestly say that I, in my Buick, pulled over more drunk drivers (hazards, flashing high beams, and manually alternating left/right fog lights will get people into rest stops pretty reliably,) have pulled over more drunk drivers than the State Police have responded to from my calls.

I wish my local police had been able to take the call from a state highway, they would have been on the scene in less than a minute. The local police force are a part of my town that I'm proud of, and I wish I could say the same for CT troopers and the state.

In the OP's situation, I would've grabbed four birdshot shells and a couple of beanbags (I would rather use less-than-lethal force first, even if the law sees them as identical,) and racked my shotgun loudly while shouting that the police were on the way. Again, an assault by multiple suspects would have half of the local force here in seconds.

timalkin · 08-13-2005, 03:59 PM

As a future note, anybody who wants to grab a gun and run out into the streets had better be very quick to drop the weapon and prone out as soon as the police arrive. Look at it from their perspective. All they see is a guy with the opportunity to readily kill them.

I always do what I can to help, even if it's just watching what happens to be a good witness.

shesus · 08-13-2005, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JumpinJesus

I've called a few times before when I've witnessed events. Maybe I've just become a bit too jaded for my own good.

To his defense, since I love him so much, we have made calls before and have ended up getting bitten in the ass. One time the apartment across the parking lot had a fire out front at about 4 in the morning. I think it was the combination of a cigarette butt and a drought. Anyway, I called 911 and we ran across the way to get the man awake and out of the apartment. We were being the good samaritans right?

Well, he didn't see it this way. He cussed us out and went to the management office the next day to complain that we woke him up. His place was on fire mind you. We get a note to come to the office and we have to defend ourselves.

Another time, I stopped on I-70 to help a woman who was run off the road by another car. I talked with her and told her that I would give her a ride home since she was going to Columbus and it was on the way. The cop that came chewed me out for not having any information. He asked me why I stopped if I had nothing that could help anyone. Talk about a slap in the face.

These are just a couple of examples of how we have been burnt. We are not bad people and honestly sometimes things happen so quickly and unexpectedly that you feeze and stand in awe. I am not saying that we shouldn't have helped, but we can't go back and beat ourselves up over what if. What we can do is learn and hopefully do better in a similar situation.

irateplatypus · 08-13-2005, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JumpinJesus

It would be very easy for me to come up with all kinds of excuses for not throwing on some clothes and getting down there, but in the end, I would really have no justification for standing and watching. It just seems so much easier to justify in my own mind watching from my vantage point.

I'm hoping that this incident provokes me to seriously rethink my own actions.

i agree, you could have done something to help that woman... but didn't.

however, i just want to say that i admire you taking responsibility for your actions and that i think anyone who reads this will examine themselves and have an opportunity to grow/improve (like you're doing) because you shared this story with TFP.

Thanks.

Angel · 08-13-2005, 09:10 PM

I have learned from experiences that I am a "rescuer" by nature. If I see someone in trouble, injured, in a wreck or things of that nature, I cannot just continue on. My instincts to help take over and I do what I can to help. However, I have never come upon a woman being beaten by men. My only way to answer is to try and base what I THINK I would do based on how I have reacted in the past. Odds are pretty good that I would do something like pull my car right in front of them with my brights blaring and on the line with 9-1-1 dispatch and my hand on the horn to try and scare them off. Although I carry a firearm, I don't assume that will always be my security so I would more than likely stay in my car until help arrived, even another by-stander that is stepping in would lead me into mobility. If I came upon the woman or man laying in the street there is not a question in my mind that I would stop to help. It would haunt me forever wondering if I could have saved a life and opted to pass by.
Now if I were in your shoes Jumpin Jesus, and viewing it from the beginning, I would have been on the phone from the first sign of trouble. Those things can turn ugly really quick so I wouldn't have hesitated. But we all react differently to situations.
I do wonder what the woman was doing walking alone, un-armed at 3:30 in the morning???

k925 · 08-13-2005, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Dad

And this applying of technical terms and accepting as fact for everything that mankind was able to deal with since we crawled out of the caves and started dragging knuckles is what I think is a big part of our problem. We can validate damn near any of our actions as long as an "expert" has deemed it normal human behavior because admitting our actions were wrong would lower our self-esteem.

So, apparently science is to blame for people behaving irresponsibly?

I hardly think that the psychologists and sociologists who identified this phenomenon did so to validate it or to make it a behavior that is acceptable. It is likely, however, that they defined the "Bystander Effect" and "Diffusion of Responsibility" with the hopes of educating others of the false sense of security and extreme danger of thinking, "someone else will take care of it."

It works, too. People who have been educated about these facets of human nature are more inclined to act against them. Take MrSelfDestruct's above post as an example: remembering what he learned in school, he takes positive action- against his instinct.

These scientists don't aim to validate the negative aspects of human nature, but instead to identify them so that we can learn to deny our inner-knukledraggers from their instinctive shortcomings.

Now, lucky for all us educated TFPers, we'll each be the first to jump out of a dumbstruck croud and to save a fellow human in distress... right?

Psycho Dad · 08-14-2005, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k925

It works, too. People who have been educated about these facets of human nature are more inclined to act against them. Take MrSelfDestruct's above post as an example: remembering what he learned in school, he takes positive action- against his instinct.

Now, lucky for all us educated TFPers, we'll each be the first to jump out of a dumbstruck croud and to save a fellow human in distress... right?

Eyes so sory. I didn' mean no harm offerin' my unedukated opinyun. I wuz only thinkin' that folks don' be needen no edukayshun to knows to do the rite thing an iffen folks would do a bettur job of knowin' wats rite thin wat to kalls it we's all be bettur off. Tha's all.

Jinn · 08-26-2005, 06:27 AM

How come no one asked the most important question?

Was she hot?

denim · 08-26-2005, 10:58 AM

What is wrong with people? They're people. What else is there to say?

Gilda · 08-26-2005, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Dad

Eyes so sory. I didn' mean no harm offerin' my unedukated opinyun. I wuz only thinkin' that folks don' be needen no edukayshun to knows to do the rite thing an iffen folks would do a bettur job of knowin' wats rite thin wat to kalls it we's all be bettur off. Tha's all.

Knowing the right thing to do and actually doing it are sometimes two different things. Studying the cause in bystander inaction can't hurt the situation, as the situation already existed. Knowing that as the number of witnesses go up, the likelihood of any one witness intervening goes down can help to counter the effect.

I think that understanding why people act the way they do is nearly always helpful in combatting undesirable behaviors.

Gilda

Psycho Dad · 08-27-2005, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilda

I think that understanding why people act the way they do is nearly always helpful in combatting undesirable behaviors.
Gilda

I absolutely agree. But I also don’t think that Kitty Genovese was a victim of people being uneducated or not understanding human behavior. Kitty Genovese was possibly more a victim of an apathetic society than she was of a group of people in a panic due to not being exposed to as much as a freshman psych class. Apathy I believe sets in well before a person enters school.

I don’t recall the particulars but, I remember hearing of a situation similar to the Genovese crime in the 70s. I was but a young boy at the time, probably less than ten years old. But I remember hearing my mother and father discussing it after reading it in the paper. Their reaction was one of shock and outrage as to how a person’s neighbors would stand idly by while another person was (in this case) raped by a single attacker. The impression that my parents beliefs and opinions on this made more of an impact on me I feel than any psych or sociology class did later in life. Mom and dad believed that someone should have helped and I believe that my parents are the kind of people that would have in the least picked up a phone to call for help.

Works by Watson and Skinner or Maslow and Rogers are indeed important. Through the years others have certainly built upon their works as well as the works of others. Studies in sociology and psychology are of benefit to every future doctor, lawyer, businessman, teacher and police officer as well as any layperson. But I also feel that were mothers and fathers to do a better job of instilling a basic understanding of morals and respect for others before sending their children into the world society would be better served.

denim · 08-27-2005, 05:28 AM

People being people: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4190570.stm and http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4189558.stm

kel · 08-27-2005, 11:45 AM

What? You mean no one will help defend me? Unbelievable...
/sarcasm off
In all honesty I am am more afraid of retribution from the Police if I get involved and try to help someone then I am of getting hurt myself. What they can do is far worse than most physical violence.

08-11-2005, 09:36 PM	#1 (permalink)
JumpinJesus Junkie Location: Chicago	What the hell is wrong with people? This is somewhat lengthy, so bear with me. I live on the 13th floor of a high rise which gives me a good view most of the time. However, I witnessed something last night that has me wondering just what the hell is wrong with people. Sometimes when I have trouble sleeping I look out our window and watch people on the street below. Last night was one of those nights. It was around 3:30 and I couldn't get to sleep so I wander over to the window and look down. I see a group of 6 guys walking very slowly down the street, stopping every few feet and looking around. I immediately begin thinking that these guys are up to no good and so decide to continue watching. They cross the street and start heading up the street away from me. Approaching them is a woman walking alone. At this point, the group of guys form a line and block the sidewalk. Suspecting something is about to go wrong, I grab my phone, just in case. The woman walks out into the street and one of the guys walks out to block her path. I flip my phone open and put my fingers on the buttons. The girl walks further out into the street and 2 other guys walk out to further block her path. She turns and runs and one of the guys starts running after her. Just as I decide it's time to call, a police car turns the corner with it's strobes on. I breathe a sigh of relief and close my phone, assuming someone else was witnessing this as well and was less hesitant than I to call. The guys don't run but instead walk over to the police car. My view is now blocked by trees but after a few minutes, I see 4 of the guys start walking back the way they came. From my vantage point, I can see the woman they were chasing. She had walked around the block and was now walking down the street about to run into the group again. I think everything is fine, though, because I can still see the police strobes about half a block up. The 4 guys stop, apparently not seeing the woman, who crosses the street and begins to hurry up a bit. Apparently the 4 guys now see her and start walking towards the corner. They stop at the corner and look around the building they're standing beside. 2 of the guys look back towards the police car. After about 30 seconds, the other 2 take off running full speed toward the woman. She turns, sees them, and takes off running too, yelling, "Somebody help me! Help me!" The 2 guys chase her into the middle of the street and catch up to her. They knock her down and begin kicking and beating her. They're in the middle of the street doing this as a car approaches. I'm thinking, "Thank God, someone else is seeing this and will help her." No. The car slows down, swerves around them, and keeps driving. At this point, someone runs out of the McDonalds and chases to 2 guys away who begin running back in my direction. At this moment, 4 police cars come from each direction and block the guys at the corner. The woman is laying in the middle of the street, not moving, and cars are just driving by her. No one stopped. No one stopped. They just fucking drove around her and kept going. 3 cars. The only person who helped her was the man who ran out of the McDonalds. Now, I tried to justify why the first car didn't stop. It's reasonable to think that this person didn't want to become a victim, either. But the other 3 cars? After she was alone in the street? What kind of fucking cowards were they? Will it ever bother them that they didn't stop to help? I try to think about what I would have done if I were a driving by when this happened. I honestly wish to believe that I would stop. Only 4 cars were on the road at this point and all 4 drove by without stopping, so I have to wonder...is everybody like this? And if so, just what the hell is wrong with people? The good news - I think - was that I don't think the woman was hurt badly because she was able to walk away. __________________ "I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

08-11-2005, 10:08 PM	#3 (permalink)
k925 Tilted Location: Inside an econobox	I'm betting the passersby probably assumed the four police cars and officers had the scene under control. Now I don't mean to be inflammatory here, but what were you doing the whole time? You scoffed at the drivers who didn't help, but all the while you were just standing up high watching it all happen. A short trip down an elevator and you could've done what you said the drivers should have. Perhaps the force that kept you from springing into action also acted upon the drivers of those three cars? Looking back, it's easy to riddicule others for their faults, but not so much yourself. (edit: looks like alansmithee and I were typing at the same time) __________________ I can has furburger?

08-11-2005, 10:10 PM	#4 (permalink)
JStrider Poo-tee-weet? Location: The Woodlands, TX	with 2 guys beating on her I dont know how much i could do... especially if their signifigantly bigger then me, armed or have more friend nearby... I would definently try to do something... call the cops... pull over and yell at em... hit them with my car... i dunno... when she was laying down in the street... i definently woulda stopped... as risk of personal injury goes down my helpfulness in a situation like that would go up... __________________ -=JStrider=- ~Clatto Verata Nicto

08-11-2005, 10:18 PM	#5 (permalink)
Siege is a tiger Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada	The psychological term is named "bystander apathy" Very common phenomena. Been witness to it myself a few times. It basically states that people will assume someone else will do it. This also leads to group ignorance. People will only do things when other people are doing them also (conformity), when everyone sees everyone else doing nothing, they do nothing. Same goes the other way, remember lynchings back in the day? That's how it works, conformity. A couple people get all riled up and yell and beat people, suddenly the crowd turns into a mob. __________________ "Your name's Geek? Do you know the origin of the term? A geek is someone who bites the heads off chickens at a circus. I would never let you suck my dick with a name like Geek" --Kevin Smith This part just makes my posts easier to find

08-11-2005, 10:45 PM	#6 (permalink)
sadistikdreams lonely rolling star Location: Seattle.	Oy. I've talked about this kind of thing to alot of people, and I always said I'd step in, no hesitation. Well, something like this did happen, I was a bystander, and I did just stand there. For about a minute. I was aware of the whole bystander thing, and I didn't want to be one. I stepped in. __________________ "Besides the noble art of getting things done, there is the noble art of leaving things undone. The wisdom of life consists in the elimination of non-essentials." -Lin Yutang hearts, by d.a.

08-11-2005, 09:56 PM	#2 (permalink)
alansmithee Junkie	This is a well-documented phenomena. People tend to stay out of situations like this. In the '70's there was a big case in NYC where a woman was repeatedly stabbed to death in an apartment complex while people watched and didn't call any police. I can't remember enough of my psych classes to remember what the technical terms and motives for this type of behavior are (maybe someone who knows more in the field could explain) but it is accepted fact. Chances are, you wouldn't have stopped, and according to many tests, the fact that you were even bothering to call the police is more than what many people would do. As the number of people in a situation seem to rise, more an more people will rely on someone else to handle the situation.

08-11-2005, 10:59 PM	#7 (permalink)
Journeyman Like John Goodman, but not. Location: SFBA, California	Cost ya money and there really is no time to think of things like this, but throwing a chair out your own window and yelling at them fellas mighta scared them off. If you had so much as a toy gun, at 13 floors they woulda bounced if you could bluff well enough. Having never been in such a situation, I can't say what I would have done from the vantage point of the drivers in the four cars, but I can say that I'd be damned ashamed of myself if I didn't stop and help.

08-11-2005, 11:35 PM	#8 (permalink)
Martian Young Crumudgeon Location: Canada	I can't say what I'd do in this sort of situation. This is a high stress situation and that means that what you or I think we'd do goes right out the window. Under high duress everything changes. Based on past experience I know that I tend to react well in poor circumstances like these, so I like to think I'd help in any way possible (including getting into a fight with four unarmed men, if necessary) but can I say that with confidence? No, absolutely not. __________________ I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

08-12-2005, 12:25 AM	#10 (permalink)
Martian Young Crumudgeon Location: Canada	On a completely unrelated (and possibly slightly callous) note, am I the only one who's suddenly hearing the pastor's sermon at the beginning of Boondock Saints? "Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men." __________________ I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

08-12-2005, 03:08 AM	#12 (permalink)
Xazy People in masks cannot be trusted Location: NYC	Any expert will tell a woman in case of being raped, cry 'fire' not 'rape' because people are much more likely to come to help if there is a fire. Sad fact in some human nature, but still true.

08-12-2005, 03:17 AM	#13 (permalink)
d*d Addict	such a walk on by society, I have stopped fights to help strangers out in a couple of situations, like in a club and i nearly got an ass whooping when I helped out someone who was about to get a beating from three other guys (he never thanked or even acknowleged my help but just fled as soon as the three guys turned their attention on me which pissed me off), just shouting OIY from a safe distance is usaully enough to suffice

08-12-2005, 03:27 AM	#14 (permalink)
Daoust "I'm sorry. What was the question?" Location: Paradise Regained	What's wrong with the world, you ask? A member begins a discussion about how a woman was senselessly beaten and all we can come up with is the technical term from the university psych. textbooks for people who were watching but not helping. That is 100% the problem. Sickening. I hear you implying that the aforementioned act is wrong, but on what level? Since so many of us have such a weak, disjointed moral code by which we judge these kinds of acts, we don't feel that we have the right, or the authority to call these acts what they are - WRONG! EVIL! Mankind is capable of, and consistently practices EVIL. Mankind has a sickness, and we all have it, some just hide it better than others. I have no doubt that somebody somewhere on this site will have the audacity to proclaim that what these men did to this woman is perfectly acceptable, and fine, as long as it does not infringe on their own personal moral codes. Nobody has the right to tell anyone that what they are doing is wrong, they will say. Nobody has a moral code that is in anyway superior to anyone elses. Anyone who says they do is a zealot, a fanatic, an evangelical nut. What's wrong with the world? Lots. What these men did is just a flagrant, out in the open example. How people react to it is equally the problem, in my opinion, (which is not more important or right than yours) __________________ I have faith in a few things - divinity and grace But even when I'm on my knees I know the devil preys

08-12-2005, 03:28 AM	#15 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	So, as she was lying in the middle of the street, with cars driving around her, you didn't call the police or an ambulance for her? Why? Did you grab your camera and try to take pictures of the guys to hand over when you called the police? I think if you ask yourself why you didn't do anything, you will have the answer as to why others' didnt do anything. 3:30am in downtown Chicago? I'm sure that most people would make a lot of assumptions as to what's going on - and not want to get involved. A few years back, I had gotten in to Newark quite late, and was in a cab heading home, because of a major construction project, the cabbie was taking side roads... at 2:00am in downtown Newark, not exactly wise... At a traffic light, we pulled up next to a fancy car (totally out of place) with a very young woman in it who was sobbing. I had the cabbie stop - who basically told me I was loco... and I asked the woman what was wrong... she was lost... we got her back to where she needed to go (Rich, white suburb) and when i told the story the next day, the response was - well she was probably t here in daddy's car to buy drugs... if anything happened to her-- she kinda asked for it... Well, there was no doubt she was there to buy drugs.. and while I'm all for thinning out the gene pool... if anything ever happened to this woman, I wouldn't be able to live with myself because I was in a position to help her and didnt/ Stupidity on her part isn't an excuse on my part to not do anything. __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less. Last edited by maleficent; 08-12-2005 at 03:33 AM..

08-12-2005, 07:49 AM	#16 (permalink)
StephenSa Psycho Location: Dallas, Texas	I definitely would stop to help someone lying in the street. Any man that would do less is less than a man. I also own firearms. I would have called 911 then if the police didn't respond in time I would have taken my 12 guage shotgun and proceeded downstairs and told these ass jacks to leave the woman alone and invited her into my building until she could call someone. Granted, I would have been scared poopless and with my luck the cops would show up just about the time I brandished the weapon but sometimes you just have to act. Admittedly I'd wait as long as I possibly could after calling 911. I'd give the police every oportunity to handle things but once she was physically attacked I'd have to react. I wasn't there so hard to say for sure but I have reacted to protect others in somwhat similar situations so I'd like to believe I'd help. __________________ Thousands of Monkeys, all screaming at once. Pulling God's finger.

08-12-2005, 07:53 AM	#17 (permalink)
JumpinJesus Junkie Location: Chicago	As far as the comments about me not doing anything. You're right. When it comes down to it, I acted just like the people in the cars. I hate to admit this, but I could just as easily have called 9-1-1 myself. I'm sure they got a few calls, but one more wouldn't hurt. As for me not going down to help either, just as a few have mentioned, I don't know why I didn't. Well, actually, I do know. My thinking was: By the time I get down there, the ambulance will be there and someone else would have surely stopped. I partook in the same apathy that I am deriding, assuming someone else would take over in the situation. It would be very easy for me to come up with all kinds of excuses for not throwing on some clothes and getting down there, but in the end, I would really have no justification for standing and watching. It just seems so much easier to justify in my own mind watching from my vantage point. I'm hoping that this incident provokes me to seriously rethink my own actions. __________________ "I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

08-12-2005, 08:02 AM	#18 (permalink)
JustJess Unencapsulated Location: Kittyville	I can only hope that if I am presented with such a situation, I am able to tap into my usually-bossy-jump-into-other-people's-problems sort of energy and do something... hopefully not getting myself killed in the process. I would definitely call - I actually have my local precinct programmed into my cell for things like traffic lights not working and causing issues, shite like that. I don't know if I could overcome my fear and do more, but I hope so. Makes me want to start carrying a weapon, so that I would have some leverage in such times. __________________ My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

08-12-2005, 08:06 AM	#20 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	I honestly wasn't being negative when i asked the question -- but your own answer is the same one that everyone else had I'd bet... They figured someone else would do it. Guilty of apathy? Probably... There's a quote that I honestly am too lazy to figure out who it's attributed to.. but it's something to the effect of "Evil prevails because good men do nothing." __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

08-12-2005, 08:15 AM	#21 (permalink)
StanT © Location: Colorado	While my dog is a complete and utter wuss, at 130# she can put on a good act if I provoke her. I've never been in a situation to confront anyone in the act, but I have taken her for a "walk" when things looked suspicious. It's sexist as hell, but I'd probably just call 911 if it was a guy. I'd take the dog out if it was a woman (and have my wife call 911).

08-12-2005, 10:56 AM	#22 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	Like Mal, I would and have stopped to help, albeit not in a violent scenario. And like that woman, I was in a situation where someone could have stepped up, but instead just watched as a crazy screaming stranger ran around my car punching the windows. I leaned on the horn, inched the car forward (this, in rush hour traffic), and was left to my own limited defenses. __________________ Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

08-13-2005, 12:00 PM	#26 (permalink)
justjt Tilted Location: O.C. California	It is sad to say that what happened here is not surprising at all. The people who didn't stop to help....well simply put...it was out of fear. Fear of getting hurt, fear of the possible results of getting involved. Everyone is wired a little differently and we all have or own thoughts on what is wrong and right and what we are willing to do to protect those standards. I can't sit here and pass judgement on those folks in the car cause hell I don't even know what kind of people they are. But I can say that karma can be a real bitch when it comes back around to you..... Whenever I see someone in need of anykind of help I always point out to myself hey that could happen to someone you care about...I would hope that someone would have enough backbone to help them out...so do the right thing

08-13-2005, 03:16 PM	#27 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	Every time I've seen a situation in which I considered dialing 911, I went through the typical "someone else probably will," and "it'll probably turn out fine." Each time, I followed with, "That's how Kitty Genovese got killed," and dialed That one lesson in my HS senior psych class has stayed with me for years. Sadly, reporting drunk drivers to the State Police is not important enough to get a cruiser staked out for a speed trap (every few days, same spot,) to be called away from waiting to give out tickets and pursue a drunk driver. I can honestly say that I, in my Buick, pulled over more drunk drivers (hazards, flashing high beams, and manually alternating left/right fog lights will get people into rest stops pretty reliably,) have pulled over more drunk drivers than the State Police have responded to from my calls. I wish my local police had been able to take the call from a state highway, they would have been on the scene in less than a minute. The local police force are a part of my town that I'm proud of, and I wish I could say the same for CT troopers and the state. In the OP's situation, I would've grabbed four birdshot shells and a couple of beanbags (I would rather use less-than-lethal force first, even if the law sees them as identical,) and racked my shotgun loudly while shouting that the police were on the way. Again, an assault by multiple suspects would have half of the local force here in seconds.

08-13-2005, 03:59 PM	#28 (permalink)
timalkin Addict Location: watching from the treeline	As a future note, anybody who wants to grab a gun and run out into the streets had better be very quick to drop the weapon and prone out as soon as the police arrive. Look at it from their perspective. All they see is a guy with the opportunity to readily kill them. I always do what I can to help, even if it's just watching what happens to be a good witness. __________________ Trinity: "What do you need?" Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns." -The Matrix

08-13-2005, 09:10 PM	#31 (permalink)
Angel Naughty Just Right Location: Euphoria	I have learned from experiences that I am a "rescuer" by nature. If I see someone in trouble, injured, in a wreck or things of that nature, I cannot just continue on. My instincts to help take over and I do what I can to help. However, I have never come upon a woman being beaten by men. My only way to answer is to try and base what I THINK I would do based on how I have reacted in the past. Odds are pretty good that I would do something like pull my car right in front of them with my brights blaring and on the line with 9-1-1 dispatch and my hand on the horn to try and scare them off. Although I carry a firearm, I don't assume that will always be my security so I would more than likely stay in my car until help arrived, even another by-stander that is stepping in would lead me into mobility. If I came upon the woman or man laying in the street there is not a question in my mind that I would stop to help. It would haunt me forever wondering if I could have saved a life and opted to pass by. Now if I were in your shoes Jumpin Jesus, and viewing it from the beginning, I would have been on the phone from the first sign of trouble. Those things can turn ugly really quick so I wouldn't have hesitated. But we all react differently to situations. I do wonder what the woman was doing walking alone, un-armed at 3:30 in the morning??? __________________ In the depth of winter, I finally learned that there was within me an invincible summer. ~Albert Camus

08-26-2005, 06:27 AM	#34 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	How come no one asked the most important question? Was she hot? __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

08-26-2005, 10:58 AM	#35 (permalink)
denim Banned Location: Massachusetts, USA	What is wrong with people? They're people. What else is there to say?

08-27-2005, 05:28 AM	#38 (permalink)
denim Banned Location: Massachusetts, USA	People being people: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4190570.stm and http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4189558.stm Last edited by denim; 08-27-2005 at 05:31 AM..

08-27-2005, 11:45 AM	#39 (permalink)
kel WARNING: FLAMMABLE Location: Ask Acetylene	What? You mean no one will help defend me? Unbelievable... /sarcasm off In all honesty I am am more afraid of retribution from the Police if I get involved and try to help someone then I am of getting hurt myself. What they can do is far worse than most physical violence. __________________ "It better be funny" Last edited by kel; 08-27-2005 at 01:26 PM.. Reason: Bad grammar today