Kids hack school issued laptops, School District call Police - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Cynthetiq · 08-10-2005, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Kutztown 13 Face Felony Charges Associated Press
Story location: http://www.wired.com/news/technology...,68480,00.html

05:10 PM Aug. 09, 2005 PT

KUTZTOWN, Pennsylvania -- They're being called the Kutztown 13 -- a group of high schoolers charged with felonies for bypassing security with school-issued laptops, downloading forbidden internet goodies and using monitoring software to spy on district administrators.

The students, their families and outraged supporters say authorities are overreacting, punishing the kids not for any heinous behavior -- no malicious acts are alleged -- but rather because they outsmarted the district's technology workers.

The Kutztown Area School District begs to differ. It says it reported the students to police only after detentions, suspensions and other punishments failed to deter them from breaking school rules governing computer usage.

In Pennsylvania alone, more than a dozen school districts have reported student misuse of computers to police, and in some cases students have been expelled, according to Jeffrey Tucker, a lawyer for the district.

The students "fully knew it was wrong and they kept doing it," Tucker said. "Parents thought we should reward them for being creative. We don't accept that."

A hearing is set for Aug. 24 in Berks County juvenile court, where the 13 have been charged with computer trespass, an offense state law defines as altering computer data, programs or software without permission.

The youths could face a wide range of sanctions, including juvenile detention, probation and community service.

As school districts across the nation struggle to keep networks secure from mischievous students who are often more adept at computers than their elders, technology professionals say the case offers multiple lessons.

School districts often don't secure their computer networks well and students need to be better taught right from wrong on such networks, said internet expert Jean Armour Polly, author of Net-mom's Internet Kids & Family Yellow Pages.

"The kids basically stumbled through an open rabbit hole and found Wonderland," Polly, a library technology administrator, said of the Kutztown 13.

The trouble began last fall after the district issued Apple iBook laptops to every student at the high school about 50 miles northwest of Philadelphia. The computers were loaded with a filtering program that limited internet access. They also had software that let administrators see what students were viewing on their screens.

But those barriers proved easily surmountable: The administrative password that allowed students to reconfigure computers and obtain unrestricted internet access was easy to obtain. A shortened version of the school's street address, the password was taped to the backs of the computers.

The password got passed around and students began downloading such forbidden programs as the popular iChat instant-messaging tool.

At least one student viewed pornography. Some students also turned off the remote-monitoring function and turned the tables on their elders, using it to view administrators' own computer screens.

The administrative password on some laptops was subsequently changed but some students got hold of that one, too, and decrypted it with a password-cracking program they found on the internet.

"This does not surprise me at all," said Pradeep Khosla, dean of Carnegie Mellon University's engineering department and director of the school's cybersecurity program. IT staffers at schools are often poorly trained, making it easy for students with even modest computer skills to get around security, he said.

Fifteen-year-old John Shrawder, one of the Kutztown 13, complained that the charges don't fit the offense. He fears a felony conviction could hurt his college and job prospects. "There are a lot of adults who go 10 miles over the speed limit or don't come to a complete stop at a stop sign. They know it's not right, but they expect a fine" not a felony offense, he said.

Shrawder's uncle, James Shrawder, has set up a website that tells the students' side of the story.

"As parents, we don't want our kid breaking in to the Defense Department or stealing credit card numbers," said the elder Shrawder, a businessman. "But downloading iChat and chatting with their friends? They are not hurting anybody. They're just curious."

The site, CutUsABreak.org, has been visited tens of thousands of times and sells T-shirts and bumper stickers, including one that says: "Arrest me, I know the password!"

The district isn't backing down, however.

It points out that students and parents were required to sign a code of conduct and acceptable use policy, which contained warnings of legal action.

The 13 students charged violated that policy, said Kutztown Police Chief Theodore Cole, insisting the school district had exhausted all options short of expulsion before seeking the charges. Cole said, however, that there is no evidence the students attacked or disabled the school's computer network, altered grades or did anything else that could be deemed malicious.

An association of professional computer educators, the International Society for Technology in Education, believes in a less-restrictive approach to computer usage. The more security barriers a district puts in place, the more students will be tempted to break them down, it believes.

"No matter how many ways you can think to protect something, the truth is that someone can hack their way around it," said Leslie Conery, the society's deputy CEO. "The gauntlet is thrown down if you have tighter control."

They knew the rules and they shouldn't flout them. I don't think that they should be punished with a felony since that's too harsh a penalty and has far too reaching ramifications for those with bright futures.

The website suggests that the technology shouldn't be forced to the students. Should the students also be allowed to "not accept" books because they don't like them?

Police letter

martinguerre · 08-10-2005, 11:01 AM

it's a sad thing to see a good idea get owned....it's a pretty cool thing to be able to offer these kids a chance to have laptops.

but seriously...it's one of those situations where the fox eats the rabbit, and the rabbit asks why. It's what they do.

when i was back in public school, i helped with some of the network administration...and the only reason we were really that good is that it was my job (cheap student labor) to change passwords a lot. i don't know that the school can be surprised that static passwords got cracked. i suppose this doesn't make them responsble for the ensuing trouble, but it should have been predictable.

feelgood · 08-10-2005, 11:12 AM

Quote:

The Kutztown Area School District begs to differ. It says it reported the students to police only after detentions, suspensions and other punishments failed to deter them from breaking school rules governing computer usage.

Reporting to the police is the right thing to do. If kids choose to ignore school rules regarding technology and networking, what's to stop them from doing the same thing in the real world application?

It's gotta be put to stop and if scare tactic works, great, if not, then by all means, show the kids what prison are like if they continue to break with the established rules.

OFKU0 · 08-10-2005, 11:13 AM

Just another day of people doing something they know they shouldn't be doing and think that there is nothing wrong with that.

I say don't punish them, let them go down the road of zero responsibility until one day when they are adults, something like this will land them in a state penetentiary. Afterall with an aging population and new correctional facilities already built, those who work in such facilties need job security also.

In other words. Fuck 'em. One day they will pay the price for feeling so special that rules and laws do not apply to them.

Jinn · 08-10-2005, 11:17 AM

Absolutely ridiculous.... a few things:

Quote:

As school districts across the nation struggle to keep networks secure from mischievous students who are often more adept at computers than their elders, technology professionals say the case offers multiple lessons.

Yes, but that does not excuse ignorance in the elders. You took something that you knew little about, gave it to someone who knew more, and expected them to only do the things you expected? How naive would you have to be?

Quote:

But those barriers proved easily surmountable: The administrative password that allowed students to reconfigure computers and obtain unrestricted internet access was easy to obtain. A shortened version of the school's street address, the password was taped to the backs of the computers.

WHAT BARRIERS? YOU TAPED THE PASSWORD TO THE BACK OF THE COMPUTER. I mean come on-- that's a security barrier? Not only is it common data (an address) but it's TAPED TO THE COMPUTER.

Quote:

The administrative password on some laptops was subsequently changed but some students got hold of that one, too, and decrypted it with a password-cracking program they found on the internet.

This is definitely not appropriate, and I feel that they finally crossed the line with this move. It's not just "using what you're given" it's creating something to BREAK something someone is protected. Since they left the password laying around, that's their fault. But if you have to decrypt (read: break in) to their password, then you're doing something illegal.

As for the felony, I'm not really sure about it. I don't equate it with violent crimes or thefts, but it could cause serious damage. I think this is another case where it should evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Downloading porn and breaking a password is not a felony, to me. A strong lesson should be given, yes... but a felony? The student is right in saying that it will destroy his future job/career simply because administrators weren't bright enough to not tape the password to the back of the computer.

Lots of community service, maybe a fine.. but a felony?

Maybe I'm trumpeting my own horn here, but this is the first in many lawsuits that will point out that old laws do not apply to the technology of today. Laws regarding copyright, access, and data policies are quickly showing their age in our "Information Revolution." Even the "access without permission" clause is vague.. in the oblique verbiage of the laws, I could be charged with the crime for altering data on my OWN computer.

rmarshall · 08-10-2005, 11:50 AM

This is an age where kids are encouraged to hack. If you give a kid a PS2, for example, the first thing they do is get on the internet and look for "cheat codes". Why bother playing an internet game if you're at a disadvantage? The other guy has unlimited bullets and energy, health, etc. Why not you?

Same thing with these. They are issued the computer with a laughable simple security and told not to do anything but homework on it. They'd rather hack into it.

Why wouldn't the school offer a chat program as part of the package? Give them that and maybe they'll be good.

Jinn · 08-10-2005, 11:55 AM

Hacking = Curiousity.

To me, that's what the students did when they noticed the password on the back of the computer and used it to explore the computer system. I think this type of behavior should be CELEBRATED and ENCOURAGED -- it creates more secure systems, and it makes the children understand computer systems that much more. Hell -- thats how I learned most of the skills I use everyday in my job -- from being "curious."

CRACKING = Criminal.

To me, that's what the students did when they cracked the password in a malicious attempt to re-enter the system. This should NOT be encouraged, and this is what they should be punished for.

Siege · 08-10-2005, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

The website suggests that the technology shouldn't be forced to the students. Should the students also be allowed to "not accept" books because they don't like them?

I'm not totally sure why high school students would *need* laptops, but hey, maybe they do.

Should they be allowed to refuse the laptops? Yes, I think they should. A laptop is simply an option. If I don't use the issued laptop, I can use my own laptop, a palm or something else.

Such is the case with textbooks. If my prof recommends the 3rd edition of a textbook I should be allowed (and I am) to use the 2nd edition. If I miss out on information, that's my own fault for not using it. Such is the price you potentially pay for using non school issued materials.

Daknjak · 08-10-2005, 12:09 PM

I feel that a felony is not reasonable. You put a computer or anything else in front of a kid, and they are going to try to find a way to use it for something else. If you tape the password to the laptop, expect someone to mess around with it.

I agree with Jinnkai that when they stole the passwords after they had been changed, and actually decrypted it with another program, that they commited a more serious crime. I think that they should have some kind of puishment just to keep them from trying more malicious behavior in the future. If you get away with it once, then you will keep doing it, and keep moving on to bigger and better things.

Cynthetiq · 08-10-2005, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seige

I'm not totally sure why high school students would *need* laptops, but hey, maybe they do.

Should they be allowed to refuse the laptops? Yes, I think they should. A laptop is simply an option. If I don't use the issued laptop, I can use my own laptop, a palm or something else.

Such is the case with textbooks. If my prof recommends the 3rd edition of a textbook I should be allowed (and I am) to use the 2nd edition. If I miss out on information, that's my own fault for not using it. Such is the price you potentially pay for using non school issued materials.

Agreed, but you are talking about a college environment. This is high school. Kids don't get to decide if they need a book or certain tools, it is decided for them.

Are you insinuating that the college rules should apply to high school and below?

Xazy · 08-10-2005, 12:18 PM

Sorry they are children they must learn responsibility on smaller stuff before larger stuff.. They deserve to be punished, not sure a felony in the long run will be the best, but then again maybe it is needed. If this sends a message to all students what is unacceptable. Otherwise they will ruin it for everyone and no one will get laptops.

Either way once you become a teen, you have to learn some consequences in life!

Elphaba · 08-10-2005, 02:06 PM

Quote:

The district isn't backing down, however.

It points out that students and parents were required to sign a code of conduct and acceptable use policy, which contained warnings of legal action.

The 13 students charged violated that policy, said Kutztown Police Chief Theodore Cole, insisting the school district had exhausted all options short of expulsion before seeking the charges. Cole said, however, that there is no evidence the students attacked or disabled the school's computer network, altered grades or did anything else that could be deemed malicious.

The students and parents signed an agreement. A handful of students chose to repeatly break the agreement, and subsequent punishments did not deter them. They earned the legal complaint against them.

We only have this article stating they were charged with felonies. In my state, a felonly charge requires a monitary loss of $X or physical harm to another. I think we are trying to make sense of some inaccurate reporting.

The parents who thought these kids should be applauded for their cleverness should be required to "enjoy" the same punishment the kids get.

Psycho Dad · 08-10-2005, 02:57 PM

Quote:

At least one student viewed pornography.

Just one? Somehow I think that a gross underestimate.

At any rate... Legal action in this instance is a little too much I suspect. Any school administration should have seen the potential for such a thing and been better prepared. If you are going to set forth policies and rules, then by all means enforce them. But also don't be passing out something like this with the potential for abuse that you don't want and basically leave the password wide open. Someone in charge of selecting the software that monitored and restricted usage obviously does not belong in such a position.

streak_56 · 08-10-2005, 03:18 PM

How about we all make assumptions here..... as they are kids right now, they're just doing harmless stuff.... now as adults, they could be doing such things as stealing people identities, causing fraud, creating a whole mess of things. On the other hand, if they learn their lesson, nothing the wiser would come about.

The difference here is that the kids should have learned something once they had detention and/or suspensions that using the administrators password. But their actions continued. I don't find the school board at fault, they exhausted their options and went a step further.

Pragma · 08-10-2005, 03:31 PM

I think the article skips a little too much over what the school did at each step, trying to force the students to back down. Now, as someone who works quite a bit in network security, I know that high school computer networks are about as insecure as you can get, and I'm sure that the school realizes that as well (especially after this). However, if you keep disciplining students (detention, suspention, etc.) as they said they were, and the student keeps breaking the regulations, then by all means call in the police and escalate the matters.

I think the major blame lies with the kids who think they can be cool and outsmart the system, browse porn on school computers, and spy on their teachers. I know at some point in time in my life, I would have thought it'd be amazingly cool to do - but thankfully I'm past that

The kids couldn't seem to get a handle on when to back down and accept the regulations, and for that they should do lots (several hundred or more) hours of community service, pay fines, etc. A felony charge will really fuck them up, as at least some of them must be sharp enough to go out, find password crackers, and get number crunching on the new password. They might have legitimate careers in front of them where a security clearance would be denied due to the charge - and so that's the only thing making me back down from saying they deserve the book thrown at them.

The parents, on the other hand, are just despicable. When I broke my school's computer regulations (oh, probably 10 years ago), my parents were much harsher on me than the school system was. They suspended me for a day, my parents grounded me for months. Yes, the kids were clever. No, the kids were not right. So punish your kids.

Rant over

snowy · 08-10-2005, 03:35 PM

My main question is if the school district was so concerned about the safety of their networks--why didn't they take these laptops away from the kids? That was usually the first punishment presented when kids overstepped the usage agreement in my high school--your computer usage was taken away at school. It seems only fair that if these laptops were owned by the school, then they should have taken them out of the hands of the kids after the kids proved they could not use them responsibly.

As for people saying that these kids could turn out to be criminals--I doubt it. Most kids around this age who do turn out to be criminals show more obvious signs than computer abuse/cracking. I know a pair of kids who committed identity theft when they were in high school, back before it was taken so seriously. They were barely 16 when they started doing that.

What the school should have done is 1) taken those kids computers away, and 2) instead of punishing them with repeated suspensions, ISS, etc, try to channel their skills into something beneficial. THAT is more effective than any kind of punishment that would be doled out by the administration, and who knows, it could have led to some mandatory community service (computer repair for the poor, perhaps?).

irseg · 08-10-2005, 04:16 PM

Geez, people are so damn uptight these days.

When I was in high school, the computers in the lab ran Windows 95 and had some sort of security program that blocked access to various websites, disabled regedit, locked out the control panel, disabled the F8 bootup menu, etc.

I rebooted the computer, then shut it off in the middle of booting up and turned it back on again. I got the "Windows failed to start up normally" boot menu which gave me the ability to boot into safe mode. From there I was able to kill the security program and unlock Windows.

The computer science teacher got a kick out of it, and asked me not to do it again. I reinstalled the software, and that was that. I agreed to leave the software alone...and from then on used nslookup to access forbidden websites by IP address, since the blocking software only worked with domain names.

It's a good thing I wasn't born a few years later, or I'd be a felon right now.

Amnesia620 · 08-10-2005, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seige

I'm not totally sure why high school students would *need* laptops, but hey, maybe they do.

If you browse the website that the article speaks about, it says there that the schools were introducing a new program that required these laptops to be used in each classroom by their respective students.

Quote:

Should they be allowed to refuse the laptops? Yes, I think they should. A laptop is simply an option. If I don't use the issued laptop, I can use my own laptop, a palm or something else.

This High School in particular has 600 students. There were meetings held before the school year began and the program's initial idea was met with opposition. I agree with you that they should allow the option to refuse the laptops, however, most parents were assured that security was of the utmost importance and security for the network, the internet, each student and laptop, was one of the highest priorities. The school's administration was so certain that student's would benefit from this program and that they had covered all of the bases, that I feel they didn't take a moment to really consider every possible problem.

Quote:

Such is the case with textbooks. If my prof recommends the 3rd edition of a textbook I should be allowed (and I am) to use the 2nd edition. If I miss out on information, that's my own fault for not using it. Such is the price you potentially pay for using non school issued materials.

You're right, and I agree with you, in a sense. One minor detail you missed, I think: This issue involves a public high school not a college. In College, yes, you choose what textbooks you want to use, but that's because of a few reasons: A. College is paid for (by whichever party; you, family, friends, state funds/taxes, etc.) B. You're an adult now, and you're essentially paying to learn, so you can choose to use whatever books, computers, recording devices, etc. you deem beneficial for you to fully benefit from your instructors/professors.

In High School, you're not given that choice. You are still viewed as either a child or young adult. Granted, you and your parents (in the latter half of your High School career) make decisions together; in college you make your own.

Siege · 08-10-2005, 07:43 PM

To Cynthetiq and Amnesia620: Ok, you got me. Perhaps not *ALL* high schoolers should be given these choices. The difference between high school and college is quite significant.

billege · 08-11-2005, 12:58 AM

Schools used to be a place where you could learn somthing from mistakes. They used to be where a mistake was met with reasonable punishment, and some positive end resolution reached. Now we have "zero tolerance." Obviously, we're doing something right. Our schools don't make weekly news appreances for outlandish situations.

If you ever get curious where the fall of a nation starts, you have only to look at our schools, especially the travesty they've become in the last 20-ish years.

I mean, yeah, the kids made mistakes. My god, they were even bad. Let's not see how stupid we can be with the punishment. There's no question punishment is appropriate, but school is supposed to be different than adult life. THat is part of the point. They're NOT adults, school (and our juvenile justice systems, btw) are where kids get the chance to screw up and NOT face the same penalites adults would. The idea is to straighten them out so when they are adults, they know better than to pull the crap they did as kids. If we throw out that 2nd chance sort of idea, then we're losing a valuable learning period.

They're kids, we give them another chance to learn. Not hit them with the book to see how bad we can screw them up.

Daniel_ · 08-11-2005, 02:06 AM

They read the rules.

They signed the rules.

They broke the rules.

NOW they decide the rules are unfair?

Balls - they should have contested the rules BEFORE they signed them.

If they comitted a felony under local laws (and it's upto a court to decide) then they have to carry the can.

Stiltzkin · 08-11-2005, 06:51 AM

Quote:

But those barriers proved easily surmountable: The administrative password that allowed students to reconfigure computers and obtain unrestricted internet access was easy to obtain. A shortened version of the school's street address, the password was taped to the backs of the computers.

The password got passed around and students began downloading such forbidden programs as the popular iChat instant-messaging tool.

Buahaha! We did exactly the same thing when I was in high school! One guy figured out the password (it was saved in a text file on one of the teachers' directories...) and it got passed around all over the place. Except that we weren't dumb enough to get caught. All we did was install a couple of games on every single computer

(StarCraft, Command&Conquer: Renegade, some version of GTA [there's zillions of them now it seems and I don't like any of them anyway...], and Quake 3). Oh yeah, we also installed Half-Life (the first one). And to think this was only two and a half years ago... heh (been out of highschool for that long already).

Should they be punished? In my opinion, yes, because they were dumb enough to get caught.

TM875 · 08-11-2005, 07:24 AM

Hacking school computers is not something new. As a few previous posters have stated, this is what we did in high school to entertain ourselves. Almost all high schools' blocking programs are jokes. There so unsecure, that the schools might just as well forget even trying to put them on their intranets in the first place.

Is this a felony? Yeah, maybe. But they're still kids just trying to do what kids do. They might have warented a suspension - not criminal charges - but if Ktown really wanted to create a program that was inpenertrable, they should hire these kids to spruce up their blocking software. Hacking is an art, and punishing the genius behind it is just stifling possible good future results.

The school should strive to teach these kids to use this power for good, rather than evil. Hacking, hardware recovery, and general computer techinical skills are valuable today. If a student is intelligent enough to break something that took designers thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours to create, they should have that intelligence harnessed and cultivated (and again - be taught to use it for good). If not, then these students may very well end up being real felonious cracking in the future.

On a side note - I'm familiar with Ktown and have several friends today that went there. It's a typical suburban school and, as with any place without much to do, kids often get involved in nefarious activities.
Computers are almost mandatory in high school now. The year after I graduated, my school introduced wireless laptops in several of the classrooms. We even had a $200 thouand "Classroom of the future" built that included touch-screens, laptops, and a infrared white board. All in all, technology is a much needed stipulation in schools today. Even 1st grade classes have computers in them now.

ObieX · 08-11-2005, 07:59 AM

I remember when i was in highscool and my friend had this very very small and non-complex little file he put on one of the comps at school. All it was was when you clicked on it a little window would pop-up that said:

Do you have a small penis?

Yes No

And when you put your mouse over the no button it would move to the other side of the yes button, and back and forth each time you moused over.. so you had to click "Yes" (tho technically you could hit tab to hit no, i did this because i have a large penis) and then you get a little pop-up that said:

Haha! you have a small penis!

You would click ok and it would close.

He got suspended for ATLEAST 1 day.

Stiltzkin · 08-11-2005, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ObieX

I remember when i was in highscool and my friend had this very very small and non-complex little file he put on one of the comps at school. All it was was when you clicked on it a little window would pop-up that said:

Do you have a small penis?

Yes No

And when you put your mouse over the no button it would move to the other side of the yes button, and back and forth each time you moused over.. so you had to click "Yes" (tho technically you could hit tab to hit no, i did this because i have a large penis) and then you get a little pop-up that said:

Haha! you have a small penis!

You would click ok and it would close.

He got suspended for ATLEAST 1 day.

I remember programming stuff like this in Visual Basic back in the day. And there's ways to prevent the "tab" cheat also

fatmanforprez · 08-11-2005, 08:37 AM

Okay I am the kid who always knew more than the security officals, I tended to have them flat out give me any password I needed, though putting it on the laptop is a real joke. What the kids did (from what i know from the article) souinds reasonable and i agree there should be some minimal slap on the wrist but lets be honest its not about teaching right from wrong, if they can figure out how to use a password cracker then they either understand that they are doing wrong or they never will. As for the contract they signed PFT!!! the number of things schools hvae made me sign over the years is rediculus and most people sign them without thinking at all, and i can tell you i have never seen one that held up at all. The biggest issue is the school not using thier free labor here, I never cracked the computers at school cause when i did they said ok now dont do anything stupid and BTW how about becomning the schools sysadmin. And what do you know i have never commited a cyber crime. Theese kids should be rewarded for using technology for the intended purpose, thier own learning.

JumpinJesus · 08-11-2005, 08:54 PM

Not to go too far off-topic, but when I read this:

Quote:

"The kids basically stumbled through an open rabbit hole and found Wonderland," Polly, a library technology administrator, said of the Kutztown 13.

I couldn't help but think this was a stupid comment. They stumbled through an open rabbit hole? Polly? What?

Anyways, then there was this:

Quote:

The site, CutUsABreak.org, has been visited tens of thousands of times and sells T-shirts and bumper stickers, including one that says: "Arrest me, I know the password!"

Ahh, as long as one can profit from it, then there is no wrong, now, is there?

Oh, and the "Arrest me, I know the password!" is stupid on the same scale as Polly's rabbit hole comment. When I read stuff like this in a news article, it makes me think Jayson Blair or Steven Glass wrote it, cause I find it hard to imagine that there a people really this dumb.

Misz · 08-14-2005, 01:11 AM

The "man" is just winging cause he got it stuck to him

Stick it to the man kids!!

08-10-2005, 11:01 AM	#2 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	it's a sad thing to see a good idea get owned....it's a pretty cool thing to be able to offer these kids a chance to have laptops. but seriously...it's one of those situations where the fox eats the rabbit, and the rabbit asks why. It's what they do. when i was back in public school, i helped with some of the network administration...and the only reason we were really that good is that it was my job (cheap student labor) to change passwords a lot. i don't know that the school can be surprised that static passwords got cracked. i suppose this doesn't make them responsble for the ensuing trouble, but it should have been predictable. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

08-10-2005, 11:13 AM	#4 (permalink)
OFKU0 Junk	Just another day of people doing something they know they shouldn't be doing and think that there is nothing wrong with that. I say don't punish them, let them go down the road of zero responsibility until one day when they are adults, something like this will land them in a state penetentiary. Afterall with an aging population and new correctional facilities already built, those who work in such facilties need job security also. In other words. Fuck 'em. One day they will pay the price for feeling so special that rules and laws do not apply to them. __________________ " In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

08-10-2005, 11:55 AM	#7 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	Hacking = Curiousity. To me, that's what the students did when they noticed the password on the back of the computer and used it to explore the computer system. I think this type of behavior should be CELEBRATED and ENCOURAGED -- it creates more secure systems, and it makes the children understand computer systems that much more. Hell -- thats how I learned most of the skills I use everyday in my job -- from being "curious." CRACKING = Criminal. To me, that's what the students did when they cracked the password in a malicious attempt to re-enter the system. This should NOT be encouraged, and this is what they should be punished for. __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

08-10-2005, 12:09 PM	#9 (permalink)
Daknjak Tilted Location: Green Bay, Wisconsin	I feel that a felony is not reasonable. You put a computer or anything else in front of a kid, and they are going to try to find a way to use it for something else. If you tape the password to the laptop, expect someone to mess around with it. I agree with Jinnkai that when they stole the passwords after they had been changed, and actually decrypted it with another program, that they commited a more serious crime. I think that they should have some kind of puishment just to keep them from trying more malicious behavior in the future. If you get away with it once, then you will keep doing it, and keep moving on to bigger and better things. __________________ On a Mens room ceiling: "Why are you looking up here? The joke is in your hand." "He who laughs last thinks slowest."

08-10-2005, 03:35 PM	#16 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	My main question is if the school district was so concerned about the safety of their networks--why didn't they take these laptops away from the kids? That was usually the first punishment presented when kids overstepped the usage agreement in my high school--your computer usage was taken away at school. It seems only fair that if these laptops were owned by the school, then they should have taken them out of the hands of the kids after the kids proved they could not use them responsibly. As for people saying that these kids could turn out to be criminals--I doubt it. Most kids around this age who do turn out to be criminals show more obvious signs than computer abuse/cracking. I know a pair of kids who committed identity theft when they were in high school, back before it was taken so seriously. They were barely 16 when they started doing that. What the school should have done is 1) taken those kids computers away, and 2) instead of punishing them with repeated suspensions, ISS, etc, try to channel their skills into something beneficial. THAT is more effective than any kind of punishment that would be doled out by the administration, and who knows, it could have led to some mandatory community service (computer repair for the poor, perhaps?). __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

08-10-2005, 11:50 AM	#6 (permalink)
rmarshall Addict Location: Kingston,Ontario	This is an age where kids are encouraged to hack. If you give a kid a PS2, for example, the first thing they do is get on the internet and look for "cheat codes". Why bother playing an internet game if you're at a disadvantage? The other guy has unlimited bullets and energy, health, etc. Why not you? Same thing with these. They are issued the computer with a laughable simple security and told not to do anything but homework on it. They'd rather hack into it. Why wouldn't the school offer a chat program as part of the package? Give them that and maybe they'll be good.

08-10-2005, 12:18 PM	#11 (permalink)
Xazy People in masks cannot be trusted Location: NYC	Sorry they are children they must learn responsibility on smaller stuff before larger stuff.. They deserve to be punished, not sure a felony in the long run will be the best, but then again maybe it is needed. If this sends a message to all students what is unacceptable. Otherwise they will ruin it for everyone and no one will get laptops. Either way once you become a teen, you have to learn some consequences in life!

08-10-2005, 03:18 PM	#14 (permalink)
streak_56 who ever said streaking was a bad thing? Location: Calgary	How about we all make assumptions here..... as they are kids right now, they're just doing harmless stuff.... now as adults, they could be doing such things as stealing people identities, causing fraud, creating a whole mess of things. On the other hand, if they learn their lesson, nothing the wiser would come about. The difference here is that the kids should have learned something once they had detention and/or suspensions that using the administrators password. But their actions continued. I don't find the school board at fault, they exhausted their options and went a step further.

08-10-2005, 03:31 PM	#15 (permalink)
Pragma I am Winter Born Location: Alexandria, VA	I think the article skips a little too much over what the school did at each step, trying to force the students to back down. Now, as someone who works quite a bit in network security, I know that high school computer networks are about as insecure as you can get, and I'm sure that the school realizes that as well (especially after this). However, if you keep disciplining students (detention, suspention, etc.) as they said they were, and the student keeps breaking the regulations, then by all means call in the police and escalate the matters. I think the major blame lies with the kids who think they can be cool and outsmart the system, browse porn on school computers, and spy on their teachers. I know at some point in time in my life, I would have thought it'd be amazingly cool to do - but thankfully I'm past that The kids couldn't seem to get a handle on when to back down and accept the regulations, and for that they should do lots (several hundred or more) hours of community service, pay fines, etc. A felony charge will really fuck them up, as at least some of them must be sharp enough to go out, find password crackers, and get number crunching on the new password. They might have legitimate careers in front of them where a security clearance would be denied due to the charge - and so that's the only thing making me back down from saying they deserve the book thrown at them. The parents, on the other hand, are just despicable. When I broke my school's computer regulations (oh, probably 10 years ago), my parents were much harsher on me than the school system was. They suspended me for a day, my parents grounded me for months. Yes, the kids were clever. No, the kids were not right. So punish your kids. Rant over

08-10-2005, 04:16 PM	#17 (permalink)
irseg Junkie Location: Florida	Geez, people are so damn uptight these days. When I was in high school, the computers in the lab ran Windows 95 and had some sort of security program that blocked access to various websites, disabled regedit, locked out the control panel, disabled the F8 bootup menu, etc. I rebooted the computer, then shut it off in the middle of booting up and turned it back on again. I got the "Windows failed to start up normally" boot menu which gave me the ability to boot into safe mode. From there I was able to kill the security program and unlock Windows. The computer science teacher got a kick out of it, and asked me not to do it again. I reinstalled the software, and that was that. I agreed to leave the software alone...and from then on used nslookup to access forbidden websites by IP address, since the blocking software only worked with domain names. It's a good thing I wasn't born a few years later, or I'd be a felon right now. Last edited by irseg; 08-10-2005 at 04:19 PM..

08-10-2005, 07:43 PM	#19 (permalink)
Siege is a tiger Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada	To Cynthetiq and Amnesia620: Ok, you got me. Perhaps not ALL high schoolers should be given these choices. The difference between high school and college is quite significant. __________________ "Your name's Geek? Do you know the origin of the term? A geek is someone who bites the heads off chickens at a circus. I would never let you suck my dick with a name like Geek" --Kevin Smith This part just makes my posts easier to find

08-11-2005, 12:58 AM	#20 (permalink)
billege Watcher Location: Ohio	Schools used to be a place where you could learn somthing from mistakes. They used to be where a mistake was met with reasonable punishment, and some positive end resolution reached. Now we have "zero tolerance." Obviously, we're doing something right. Our schools don't make weekly news appreances for outlandish situations. If you ever get curious where the fall of a nation starts, you have only to look at our schools, especially the travesty they've become in the last 20-ish years. I mean, yeah, the kids made mistakes. My god, they were even bad. Let's not see how stupid we can be with the punishment. There's no question punishment is appropriate, but school is supposed to be different than adult life. THat is part of the point. They're NOT adults, school (and our juvenile justice systems, btw) are where kids get the chance to screw up and NOT face the same penalites adults would. The idea is to straighten them out so when they are adults, they know better than to pull the crap they did as kids. If we throw out that 2nd chance sort of idea, then we're losing a valuable learning period. They're kids, we give them another chance to learn. Not hit them with the book to see how bad we can screw them up. __________________ I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence: "My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend." Last edited by billege; 08-11-2005 at 01:08 AM..

08-11-2005, 02:06 AM	#21 (permalink)
Daniel_ Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It! Location: Southern England	They read the rules. They signed the rules. They broke the rules. NOW they decide the rules are unfair? Balls - they should have contested the rules BEFORE they signed them. If they comitted a felony under local laws (and it's upto a court to decide) then they have to carry the can. __________________ ╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗ Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air, And deep beneath the rolling waves, In labyrinths of Coral Caves, The Echo of a distant time Comes willowing across the sand; And everthing is Green and Submarine ╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

08-11-2005, 07:24 AM	#23 (permalink)
TM875 Addict Location: Amish-land, PA	Hacking school computers is not something new. As a few previous posters have stated, this is what we did in high school to entertain ourselves. Almost all high schools' blocking programs are jokes. There so unsecure, that the schools might just as well forget even trying to put them on their intranets in the first place. Is this a felony? Yeah, maybe. But they're still kids just trying to do what kids do. They might have warented a suspension - not criminal charges - but if Ktown really wanted to create a program that was inpenertrable, they should hire these kids to spruce up their blocking software. Hacking is an art, and punishing the genius behind it is just stifling possible good future results. The school should strive to teach these kids to use this power for good, rather than evil. Hacking, hardware recovery, and general computer techinical skills are valuable today. If a student is intelligent enough to break something that took designers thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours to create, they should have that intelligence harnessed and cultivated (and again - be taught to use it for good). If not, then these students may very well end up being real felonious cracking in the future. On a side note - I'm familiar with Ktown and have several friends today that went there. It's a typical suburban school and, as with any place without much to do, kids often get involved in nefarious activities. Computers are almost mandatory in high school now. The year after I graduated, my school introduced wireless laptops in several of the classrooms. We even had a $200 thouand "Classroom of the future" built that included touch-screens, laptops, and a infrared white board. All in all, technology is a much needed stipulation in schools today. Even 1st grade classes have computers in them now. __________________ "I've made only one mistake in my life. But I made it over and over and over. That was saying 'yes' when I meant 'no'. Forgive me."

08-11-2005, 07:59 AM	#24 (permalink)
ObieX Pickles Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)	I remember when i was in highscool and my friend had this very very small and non-complex little file he put on one of the comps at school. All it was was when you clicked on it a little window would pop-up that said: Do you have a small penis? Yes No And when you put your mouse over the no button it would move to the other side of the yes button, and back and forth each time you moused over.. so you had to click "Yes" (tho technically you could hit tab to hit no, i did this because i have a large penis) and then you get a little pop-up that said: Haha! you have a small penis! You would click ok and it would close. He got suspended for ATLEAST 1 day. __________________ We Must Dissent.

08-11-2005, 08:37 AM	#26 (permalink)
fatmanforprez Tilted	Okay I am the kid who always knew more than the security officals, I tended to have them flat out give me any password I needed, though putting it on the laptop is a real joke. What the kids did (from what i know from the article) souinds reasonable and i agree there should be some minimal slap on the wrist but lets be honest its not about teaching right from wrong, if they can figure out how to use a password cracker then they either understand that they are doing wrong or they never will. As for the contract they signed PFT!!! the number of things schools hvae made me sign over the years is rediculus and most people sign them without thinking at all, and i can tell you i have never seen one that held up at all. The biggest issue is the school not using thier free labor here, I never cracked the computers at school cause when i did they said ok now dont do anything stupid and BTW how about becomning the schools sysadmin. And what do you know i have never commited a cyber crime. Theese kids should be rewarded for using technology for the intended purpose, thier own learning.

08-14-2005, 01:11 AM	#28 (permalink)
Misz Tilted	The "man" is just winging cause he got it stuck to him Stick it to the man kids!!