Beta-blockers 'blot out memories' - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

StanT · 07-29-2005, 09:53 AM

Quote:

A common blood pressure drug could help people who have witnessed traumatic events, such as the London bombings, to block out their distressing memories.

Cornell University psychiatrists are carrying out tests using beta-blockers, the journal Nature reports.

The drug has been shown to interfere with the way the brain stores memories.

Post-traumatic stress disorder affects around one in three of people caught up in such events, and memories can be triggered just by a sound or smell.

People with PTSD are given counselling, but because it is not always effective, researchers have been looking for alternative therapies.

However there are concerns that a drug which can alter memories could be misused, perhaps by the military who may want soldiers to become desensitised to violence.

Fear and memory linked

The beta-blocker propranolol has been found to block the neurotransmitters involved in laying down memories.

Studies have shown that rats who have learned to fear a tone followed by an electric shock lose that fear if propranolol is administered after the tone starts.

The Cornell University team are reported to be seeing similar results in early studies in humans, Nature reports.

Margaret Altemus, who is one of the psychiatrists working on the study, told the journal: "The memory of the event is associated with the fear, and they always occur together."

The researchers plan to recruit 60 patients for a clinical trial where participants would be asked to take a dose of propranolol whenever they experienced symptoms of PTSD, such as an increased heart rate or breathing difficulties.

But so far only one person has volunteered to take part.

Dr Altemus believes patients can be reluctant to try new therapies.

She said a drug treatment could be a useful option for those with PTSD.

"People with PTSD are disabled - their communication and relationships can be crippled.

"It's a serious illness."

But other psychiatrists have expressed concern about the use of the beta-blocker in PTSD treatment.

Berthold Gersons, based at the University of Amsterdam in the Netherlands, said: "We hope it will work, but it is a simple solution."

He cautioned it may not work in all cases of PTSD.

But other experts say PTSD is a natural response to traumatic events and should not be treated with drugs.

Dr Paul McHugh, a psychiatrist at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Maryland and member of the US President's Council on Bioethics expressed concern over the possible uses of the drug.

"If soldiers did something that ended up with children getting killed, do you want to give them beta blockers so that they can do it again?"

He added: "Psychiatrists are once again marching in where angels fear to tread."

As I read this, it is possible to take drugs to help block memories of traumatic events. Opinions? Would you take this if you were involved in an event like 9/11 or the recent London bombings.

StanT · 07-29-2005, 09:54 AM

My memory is flakey enough without help. Bad memories are as much a part of my personality as good ones. I'd prefer to stay unmedicated, thank you.

shesus · 07-29-2005, 10:08 AM

Medical science is getting to creepy. I suffered from PTSD when I was a teenager. As bad as the memory is, I don't think that I would want to lose it. Yes, it hurt some of my relationships, made me untrusting for a while, and gave me a phobia of libraries, but as StanT said it makes me who I am today.

I can see this going the wrong direction. I think that people need to learn to cope with problems and not rely on a 'memory erasing' pill.

In answer to your question: No, I would not take it if I was involved in a tragedy like 9/11 or bus bombings. I think that the pain is part of recovery. Also, what if the memory stayed in the subconscious memory. A person may be suffering and have no idea why. I would rather keep my head clear and know why I feel the way I do.

maleficent · 07-29-2005, 12:43 PM

While there are a few things I would like to block out - -how can they be sure that you are only blocking the bad stuff and not some of the good that goes along with it... If all the bad memories got blocked from people, and we were left with nothing but shiney happy people - gawd it'd be like living in Stepford....

Nope, as much as it sucks sometimes, I'll take the bad memories.

cyrnel · 07-29-2005, 12:55 PM

I could be wrong but I believe it'd have to be at theraputic levels while going through the experience. It won't erase memories, nor do anything selectively, it only blocks short term from being laid down as long term memory. Unless it's added to the water supply few people would benefit. Soldiers, spies, homebuyers... Maybe a new version of non-disclosure-agreement?

I'm with everyone here as to not wanting it. Bad memories are a large portion of all personal and societal motivation to stop doing many bad things. "Never forget."

Anomaly_ · 07-29-2005, 04:49 PM

Considering how poor my memory is, I'm now a little hesitant to start using Inderal for minor hand tremors. Beta blockers have been around a long time but I had never heard about these possible side effects.

However effective it is at blocking memories, I don't think it will ever to compare to the more natural process of working through painful experiences over a long period time. It reminds me of Elvis taking sweat-preventing pills so that he wouldn't have to shower as much.

Astrocloud · 07-30-2005, 10:02 AM

It appears that the beta blockers only work when you are doing things that old memories would affect. The rats were taught to fear a sound and then administered the beta-blockers to stop the fear. It would make sense to use on someone if they had shell shock so bad that loud noises would cause convulsions... and were going to a rock concert.

raeanna74 · 07-30-2005, 03:56 PM

Every time I hear an ambulance, especially one behind me while I'm driving, I get panicked like that. Heart racing, sweating, out of breath... YET, the reason I feel that way is because of a life changing event that has done more good than harm in my marriage since. As much as I don't like how I feel I'm learning to take control of it and my panic episodes are shorter and shorter. Also I would not want to loose the sense of gratefulness that things did not end up differently after the event. Without the event I cannot be grateful for certain things now.

VitaminH · 07-30-2005, 03:59 PM

Beta blockers have for a long time been used to help stop performance anxiety and the like, what this is doing is more or less helping to block the anxiety experienced in PTSD when you something triggers that bad memory. It wouldn't actually "block" out the memory as the article seems to imply, rather just kill some of the anxiety from flashbacks, or the memory in general.

Suave · 07-31-2005, 12:27 AM

I can't say, as I've never been in a situation that traumatic. From as much experience with memory as I have (mine is terrible anyway), I'd say chances are that I would opt not to take that kind of a drug. If I am going to fundamentally alter my mind, I prefer to do it through my own devices (mind over matter, or mind over mind if you will). And no, smoking weed is not fundamentally altering one's mind. It goes back to normal later.

raeanna74 · 07-31-2005, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VitaminH

Beta blockers have for a long time been used to help stop performance anxiety and the like, what this is doing is more or less helping to block the anxiety experienced in PTSD when you something triggers that bad memory. It wouldn't actually "block" out the memory as the article seems to imply, rather just kill some of the anxiety from flashbacks, or the memory in general.

If that's the case then I guess it would have been beneficial when I first began to have anxiety/panic attacks. Part of the trouble they caused is that they primarily occured while I was driving. When you are shaking, heart is racing, unable to breath, and sweating it's difficult to drive. It might make people more safe until they are able to deal with the memories.

It's unfortunate that they biased the article by not clearly describing what the meds actually do.

Sugarmouse · 07-31-2005, 08:08 PM

I can see this going the wrong direction. I think that people need to learn to cope with problems and not rely on a 'memory erasing' pill.

no i wouldnt-i dont think forgettingsomething is the key to recovering from it!

Willravel · 08-01-2005, 01:20 PM

As someone who once took beta blockers (atenelol) for a medical condition (coarctation of the aorta repair), I find this very distressing. I don't think I have PTSD, but if I do, I don't know it. Thanks a lot for the heads up.

lindalove · 08-09-2005, 10:37 PM

I think it's worth noting that a rat's memory is likely to be far less complicated than a human one.

The article does seem to state that it actually interferes with the process of memory, rather than the associated emotions, although I don't know what work has been done to show this. If, as Eve suggested, it blocks short term memory from being transferred into long term memory, it could be administered shortly after a traumatic experience.

As to fears about affecting other memories, if it is given shortly after a major traumatic event, like a plane crash, bomb explosion, etc., I think the chances are that all the short term memory that isn't already in the long term memory will be taken up by that event. I seem to remember from somewhere that you only keep seven things in short term memory - although how much that varies between people, and whether that is the same short term memory being considered here, I don't know.

snowy · 08-10-2005, 10:07 AM

Hmm...

My mother has PTSD and has been on beta blockers (atenelol) for high blood pressure. I wonder if she noticed any sort of difference. Given that she's also on anti-depressants to control some of the issues associated with her PTSD, I doubt the beta blockers alone would cause any noticeable difference.

Ronin Tetsuro · 08-10-2005, 01:46 PM

Look. We already have cocaine in Italian rivers and Xanax in European water supplies from over medication. WHat do you think an overdose of beta-blockers will do to a population. It WILL end up in the water supply if you provide as little as 10% of the population with it.

And then we won't have to worry about fighting for our freedoms or human rights violations, we will be a population of sheep told what to think feel and believe. Reality television will be the only thing on television. And no one will have heard of anything so violent and true as '1984'.

Hm. Not at all unlike how things are right now.

MSD · 08-14-2005, 06:03 PM

I need to see more about this before I make a decision. If it actually does damage memory, then I'm against it. If, as it sounds to me, it just aids in the dissociation of stimulus and response, then I would be more willing to accept it.

StuckinRow · 08-14-2005, 07:13 PM

If this drug actually affects your memory then I would stay the hell away from it. Maybe I have read too many stories (Fiction and Non) about people who have lost even slight events from their memory. Even though I hate 90% of my memories since I have a tendency to remember only the bad, I would not want to forget my past. I wouldnt want to take the chance that it would accidently erase the good things I remember. The day I wake up and not know who I am would be a very frightening day indeed.

07-29-2005, 10:08 AM	#3 (permalink)
shesus Fancy Location: Chicago	Medical science is getting to creepy. I suffered from PTSD when I was a teenager. As bad as the memory is, I don't think that I would want to lose it. Yes, it hurt some of my relationships, made me untrusting for a while, and gave me a phobia of libraries, but as StanT said it makes me who I am today. I can see this going the wrong direction. I think that people need to learn to cope with problems and not rely on a 'memory erasing' pill. In answer to your question: No, I would not take it if I was involved in a tragedy like 9/11 or bus bombings. I think that the pain is part of recovery. Also, what if the memory stayed in the subconscious memory. A person may be suffering and have no idea why. I would rather keep my head clear and know why I feel the way I do. __________________ Whatever did happen to your soul? I heard you sold it Choose Heaven for the weather and Hell for the company

07-29-2005, 12:43 PM	#4 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	While there are a few things I would like to block out - -how can they be sure that you are only blocking the bad stuff and not some of the good that goes along with it... If all the bad memories got blocked from people, and we were left with nothing but shiney happy people - gawd it'd be like living in Stepford.... Nope, as much as it sucks sometimes, I'll take the bad memories. __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

07-29-2005, 12:55 PM	#5 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	I could be wrong but I believe it'd have to be at theraputic levels while going through the experience. It won't erase memories, nor do anything selectively, it only blocks short term from being laid down as long term memory. Unless it's added to the water supply few people would benefit. Soldiers, spies, homebuyers... Maybe a new version of non-disclosure-agreement? I'm with everyone here as to not wanting it. Bad memories are a large portion of all personal and societal motivation to stop doing many bad things. "Never forget." __________________ There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

07-30-2005, 03:56 PM	#8 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	Every time I hear an ambulance, especially one behind me while I'm driving, I get panicked like that. Heart racing, sweating, out of breath... YET, the reason I feel that way is because of a life changing event that has done more good than harm in my marriage since. As much as I don't like how I feel I'm learning to take control of it and my panic episodes are shorter and shorter. Also I would not want to loose the sense of gratefulness that things did not end up differently after the event. Without the event I cannot be grateful for certain things now. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

07-30-2005, 03:59 PM	#9 (permalink)
VitaminH An embarrassment to myself and those around me... Location: Pants	Beta blockers have for a long time been used to help stop performance anxiety and the like, what this is doing is more or less helping to block the anxiety experienced in PTSD when you something triggers that bad memory. It wouldn't actually "block" out the memory as the article seems to imply, rather just kill some of the anxiety from flashbacks, or the memory in general. __________________ "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte

07-29-2005, 09:54 AM	#2 (permalink)
StanT © Location: Colorado	My memory is flakey enough without help. Bad memories are as much a part of my personality as good ones. I'd prefer to stay unmedicated, thank you.

07-29-2005, 04:49 PM	#6 (permalink)
Anomaly_ Insane	Considering how poor my memory is, I'm now a little hesitant to start using Inderal for minor hand tremors. Beta blockers have been around a long time but I had never heard about these possible side effects. However effective it is at blocking memories, I don't think it will ever to compare to the more natural process of working through painful experiences over a long period time. It reminds me of Elvis taking sweat-preventing pills so that he wouldn't have to shower as much.

07-30-2005, 10:02 AM	#7 (permalink)
Astrocloud Apocalypse Nerd	It appears that the beta blockers only work when you are doing things that old memories would affect. The rats were taught to fear a sound and then administered the beta-blockers to stop the fear. It would make sense to use on someone if they had shell shock so bad that loud noises would cause convulsions... and were going to a rock concert.

07-31-2005, 12:27 AM	#10 (permalink)
Suave Twitterpated Location: My own little world (also Canada)	I can't say, as I've never been in a situation that traumatic. From as much experience with memory as I have (mine is terrible anyway), I'd say chances are that I would opt not to take that kind of a drug. If I am going to fundamentally alter my mind, I prefer to do it through my own devices (mind over matter, or mind over mind if you will). And no, smoking weed is not fundamentally altering one's mind. It goes back to normal later. __________________ "Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

07-31-2005, 08:08 PM	#12 (permalink)
Sugarmouse Insane Location: Preston lancs(i know i know)	I can see this going the wrong direction. I think that people need to learn to cope with problems and not rely on a 'memory erasing' pill. no i wouldnt-i dont think forgettingsomething is the key to recovering from it! __________________ Sugarmouse=Festered

08-01-2005, 01:20 PM	#13 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	As someone who once took beta blockers (atenelol) for a medical condition (coarctation of the aorta repair), I find this very distressing. I don't think I have PTSD, but if I do, I don't know it. Thanks a lot for the heads up.

08-09-2005, 10:37 PM	#14 (permalink)
lindalove Registered User	I think it's worth noting that a rat's memory is likely to be far less complicated than a human one. The article does seem to state that it actually interferes with the process of memory, rather than the associated emotions, although I don't know what work has been done to show this. If, as Eve suggested, it blocks short term memory from being transferred into long term memory, it could be administered shortly after a traumatic experience. As to fears about affecting other memories, if it is given shortly after a major traumatic event, like a plane crash, bomb explosion, etc., I think the chances are that all the short term memory that isn't already in the long term memory will be taken up by that event. I seem to remember from somewhere that you only keep seven things in short term memory - although how much that varies between people, and whether that is the same short term memory being considered here, I don't know.

08-10-2005, 10:07 AM	#15 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	Hmm... My mother has PTSD and has been on beta blockers (atenelol) for high blood pressure. I wonder if she noticed any sort of difference. Given that she's also on anti-depressants to control some of the issues associated with her PTSD, I doubt the beta blockers alone would cause any noticeable difference. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

08-10-2005, 01:46 PM	#16 (permalink)
Ronin Tetsuro Upright	Look. We already have cocaine in Italian rivers and Xanax in European water supplies from over medication. WHat do you think an overdose of beta-blockers will do to a population. It WILL end up in the water supply if you provide as little as 10% of the population with it. And then we won't have to worry about fighting for our freedoms or human rights violations, we will be a population of sheep told what to think feel and believe. Reality television will be the only thing on television. And no one will have heard of anything so violent and true as '1984'. Hm. Not at all unlike how things are right now. __________________ The best stories are the ones I can never tell.

08-14-2005, 06:03 PM	#17 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	I need to see more about this before I make a decision. If it actually does damage memory, then I'm against it. If, as it sounds to me, it just aids in the dissociation of stimulus and response, then I would be more willing to accept it.

08-14-2005, 07:13 PM	#18 (permalink)
StuckinRow Upright	If this drug actually affects your memory then I would stay the hell away from it. Maybe I have read too many stories (Fiction and Non) about people who have lost even slight events from their memory. Even though I hate 90% of my memories since I have a tendency to remember only the bad, I would not want to forget my past. I wouldnt want to take the chance that it would accidently erase the good things I remember. The day I wake up and not know who I am would be a very frightening day indeed.