Jinn

I was inspired by clavus' "shithead" thread (<a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=17030">here</a>) but didn't want to directly derail it with this post. It is a really good thread, and I exemplifies the humanity-centric view of TFP. Can the opposite actually happen too? A shithead moment that makes you an unshithead?

I went to a day-long concert yesterday (Warped Tour) and the line for Will Call tickets was easily two hours long. It was 9 am and already about 90 degrees out. It was so hot that a girl in the line over from us passed out before she even got 50 feet from the counter. There was easily 2,000 people in the Will Call lines, A-D, E-L, M-R and S-Z, and it was easily moving at about 2 feet every 10 minutes. The S-Z line was MUCH shorter, as it is a much less common last name. People were beginning to cut in front of our line (M-R) by walking up the S-Z line and cutting over into ours. There were gaps in the barricades, especially near the booth itself. You couldn't see this happening until you got within sight of the booth, and it started to get epidemic. By now we'd made it within 10 feet of the booth and still being cut in front of by people who had just arrived. We'd been standing in the heat for hours and I'd started to get frustrated as the show had already started, yet we were still in line for tickets. At that moment, a tall lanky kid in white sunglasses and a mini-mohawk walked right past us (saying "excuse me, excuse me" like he had urgent business, from the S-Z line. By the time he got to the front, he started offering people $20 to let him in front of them. The whole "crowd" at the booth refused and he said "whatever" and got in line directly in front of me. There was a middle-aged woman and man behind me, and a few others directly behind them, who saw this as well. They started shouting "Hey buddy.. the line is back here" and "Come on, we've been waiting for TWO HOURS!!" He looked scared, but he turned his back to the crowd and waited for his turn at the booth. People kept shouting "OH COME ON!!!" By the time he got his tickets, the middle aged lady behind me had called a CSC Event Staff person over and said that these people had been cutting and mentioned the tall teenager specifically. She told him exactly what he had done and the men around her agreed. He mumbled for a few into his radio and then told the lady that "I'm sorry about that ma`am" and just walked off. She was notably flustered. When the kid turned around with his tickets, I grabbed him and smashed him across into the S-Z barricade. He definitely got the message that he had been ignoring. The lady smiled and mentioned that she wanted to do the same thing, but felt like she was smaller and would have gotten beat up. The man and the kid behind her also noticed and thanked me for doing so. The original woman told the lady next to her that when the line-cheating teenager had turned around that I "had clocked him one" and she smiled and thanked me.

I'm a usually nonviolent person, but I felt like I was letting the kid know that we didn't appreciate his "I'm better than you and these other people" attitude. As we approached the booth, I moved into the hole into the barricade with my arms crossed so that no others could cheat the system. As I moved even closer, the lady and the man behind her formed up behind me to create the wall. Now only people who had legitimately waited in line could get to the booth. By the time me and my girlfriend got our tickets, there was a literal cheer from the crowd behind me, and I wished them luck with getting theirs.

I got the warm-fuzzy feeling that I had helped these people, even though it took violent means due to the non-action of the "authority".

It is certainly a thin line to walk, but can enforcing obvious laws/expectations on those who would ignore them in the absense of authority be justified? I am certainly NOT advocating random vigilante justice, but you get my drift...

Can you create an unshithead moment in the complete demonstration of shithead?

If so, has anyone else had an opportunity to "protect the innocent" in a situation where "real" authority wasn't present?

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Suave

I wouldn't say your actions should be lauded or anything, but they're not detestable either. Pretty much just a human reaction to idiocy. As long as no one was seriously injured, you got some personal satisfaction out of it, and that's that.

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shakran

uh, no, that was a pretty stupid thing to do. Why did you wait until AFTER he had his tickets? Not that it would have been ultra smart to deck him before, but after he has them, the ONLY thing your actions could change is whether you get a ticket or spend a night in jail. Doesn't seem bright to me.

Daoust

agreed with above. Action before reaction makes you more of an unshithead, I think.

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woody18228

Shoulda made it very clear to him the people around you wouldn't accept him cutting. If he looked scared...some more prying wouldve gotten your message across

Craven Morehead

How did you help anyone? He already had his tickets.

Now if you had kneecapped him before he got to the window that would be a different story.

Marvelous Marv

There is no way he would have gotten his tickets if he had cut in front of me.

At the very LEAST, I would have inserted myself in front of him, and started letting people in the line have cuts.

odu_sonar_AE

I understand the need for action, as wrongs must be addressed, but it could have been handled as soon as the kid cut in front of you. Although it might have eventually lead to it, there was a chance that it could have been solved without the need for violence. I understand the need to do something (especially having waited in line for hours in the heat), but would it have been worth it if any charges were pressed against you?

Question for you: What prompted you to throw the kid into the barricade? Was it due to your frustration with him, an effort to “give him some justice,” the heat, or was there something else?

I try not to be a violent person, if possible. Having said this, I might have been one of the people applauding your efforts given the situation.

I wish you better luck getting tickets for your future concerts this summer.

MSD

I will not condone violence during a situation in which you were not at any risk of being harmed, but I can say that if that happened at a concert that I was attending, my brother and I (both 6'8" tall) may have sent him on an unwanted but harmless crowd-surfing expedition down the line.

edit: this isn't vigilante justice, this is gettting mad and overreacting

Lasereth

I agree that action should have been taken, but I would have told him to get to the back of the line first, and if he didn't, let everyone cut in front of him. Pushing and shoving does get the job done, but he could have easily got you in trouble for it. Good job for not letting him have his way, but next time you might wanna do it in a manner that is sure to not end up with you in the back of a police car.

-Lasereth

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Gilda

First, I hate it when people cut in line. Hate it, hate it, hate it. It's the height of being arrogant and incosiderate. But I'll start a separate thread to discuss that.

Second, firmly telling someone that what they're doing is wrong is good. Standing in such a position as to make it difficult for others to cut is an acceptable use of passive force.

Violence should be for defense only, never just to let out your frustation.

But violence, IMO, should never be used except in self defense. I don't think cutting in line comes anywhere close to being justification for hitting someone. If there is no risk of physical harm to yourself or the loss of your property (or that of another), you shouldn't put your hands on someone else. As much as it pisses me off to have someone cut, it's really a small thing, not worth the risk of getting hurt or arrested for assault.

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Jinn

As a person who would align their philosophy with Karate and Buddhism in the arena of "Never strike first, never strike out of anger," I can see now that it was probably not the best plan. It really was done out of a desire to make him "feel whats coming" because I felt like if I did nothing he would skate by without any realistic ramifications for his actions. This would make him more likely to repeat it in the future. If, by striking him, I would show him that were consequences for his actions, I would feel justified. Is this not a valuable lesson? Or is just not mine to dole out?

In order for me to "get in front of him" and prevent him from cutting, I would have had to, myself, cut 3 or 4 people. After he got his tickets, I knew he would be walking back past me and I chose that moment to strike.

So -- in retrospect; more words before fists, less frustration and more clarity. Aye?

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Daniel_

Totally agree.

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Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
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The Echo of a distant time
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Menoman

Sounds like you did what any guy would have done in your position.

The kid needed a lesson, and it was taught to him. Kudos to you.


Anyone who says "Oh no sir you should have used words instead of action wah wah boo baa boo hoo" is actually thinking, damn it felt good to see that little prick hit the ground.

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shakran

Ah, no, we're not. You see, some of us actually DO have the maturity that we try not go to running around getting into fights with everyone. Some of us also realize that one jackass cutting in line in front of us is not going to be the end of the world. And some of us will be assertive enough to yell at the guy instead of pulling the 2nd grade trick of hitting anything that upsets us. We also don't enjoy the idea of spending time in jail, or being sued. Assaulting the kid could get us both.

Menoman

In my experience, what I posted is completely accurate.

The people who are anti-knocking-stupid-fucks-on-their-asses, are normally just as glad to see it happen as the people who do it.

Whether they'll admit it is a different story.

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Daniel_

Personally I feel that it would have been quite valid to firmly remove the guy from the line when he cut in (not to hit him, but to "remove" him gently, yet firmly) but waiting until he had got his ticket ad then belting him was pointless and dangerous.

I feel sorry for anyone that takes delight in someone else's pain, even if they were behaving badly and may have in some way "deserved" punishment.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Frowning Budah

Probably just makes you human. Was it the right response? Hell if I know, but is was your response to what happened to you. Made you feel better so it was probably the right thing to do.