The Tax System - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Sleepyjack · 05-23-2005, 01:40 AM

I received this email today and found it quite interesting. I am not an accountant or anything so am not sure if its as clear cut as this.

Quote:

The Tax System.

Here is the real story to lighten the Budget discussion! You've heard the

cry in the last 5 or 6 days from across Australia: "It's just a tax cut for

the rich!", and it is accepted as fact. But what does that really mean? The

following explanation may help.

Suppose that every night, 10 men go out for dinner at La Porchetta's. The

bill for all 10 comes to $100. They decided to pay their bill the way we

pay our taxes and it went like this:

* The first four men (the poorest) paid nothing.

* The fifth paid $1.

* The sixth $3.

* The seventh $7.

* The eighth $12.

* The ninth $18.

* The tenth man (the richest) paid $59.

All 10 were quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner

said: "Since you are all such good customers, I'm going to reduce the cost

of your daily meal by $20." So now dinner for the 10 only cost $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. The

first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But how

should the other six, the paying customers, divvy up the $20 windfall so

that everyone would get his "fair share"? They realised that $20 divided

by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then

the fifth and sixth men would each end up being paid to eat. The

restaurateur suggested reducing each man's

bill by roughly the same percentage, thus:

* The fifth man paid nothing (like the first four) instead of $1 (100%

saving).

* The sixth paid $2 instead of $3 (33% saving).

* The seventh paid $5 instead of $7 (28% saving).

* The eighth paid $9 instead of $12 (25% saving).

* The ninth paid $14 instead of $18 (22% saving).

* The tenth paid $49 instead of $59 (16% saving).

Each of the six was better off, and the first four continued to eat for

free, as now did the fifth - but outside the restaurant, the men began to

compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the

sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man "but he got $10!" "That's right,"

exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar too. It's unfair that he

got ten times more than me!" "That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why

should he get $10 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get

anything at all. The system exploits the poor!" The nine men surrounded the

tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for dinner. The nine sat down

and ate without him, but when they came to pay the bill, they discovered

that they didn't have enough money between all of them to meet even half of

the bill!

That, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, special interest

whingers is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes

get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them

for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore.

I still think there should be some point where you can have "enough" money to get by. eg whats the difference between 100 million and 1 billion for one person? It's a lot of fucking money - but the difference could help a lot of other people; surely there's a point where something could be enough (such that they wouldn't need to receive money back from the government). Although this is probably way too hard and controversial to objectively govern...

alansmithee · 05-23-2005, 02:05 AM

My doctor has that posted in his office (sans the Australia references), didn't know it was floating around the net. He's had it in his office for 3 years or so now.

As to progressive tax systems from the rich man's perspective, it's not about having enough. Its about the fact that they made the money, and it's theirs. They aren't worried about fairness.

Konichiwaneko · 05-23-2005, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee

My doctor has that posted in his office (sans the Australia references), didn't know it was floating around the net. He's had it in his office for 3 years or so now.

As to progressive tax systems from the rich man's perspective, it's not about having enough. Its about the fact that they made the money, and it's theirs. They aren't worried about fairness.

Fairness doesn't equate to taking someones money because they are highly skilled or luckier then someone else.

That's for the politics section of the board though, this was a pretty cool email and it made sense though I'm sure some activist will be quick to say "ARE YOU SAYING POOR PEOPLE AND MIDDLE PEOPLE ARE VIOLENT?"

Cereberus · 05-23-2005, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee

My doctor has that posted in his office (sans the Australia references), didn't know it was floating around the net. He's had it in his office for 3 years or so now.

As to progressive tax systems from the rich man's perspective, it's not about having enough. Its about the fact that they made the money, and it's theirs. They aren't worried about fairness.

I'd say that's EXACTLY what they're worried about.

Here's another you can take to your doctor:

Quote:

A Father Daughter Talk

A young woman was about to finish her first year of college. Like so many
others her age she considered herself to be a very liberal Democrat and
was for distribution of all wealth. She felt deeply ashamed that her
father was a rather staunch Republican, and she expressed her opinion openly.

One day she was challenging her father on his beliefs and his opposition
to higher taxes on the rich and more welfare programs. In the middle of her
heartfelt diatribe based upon the lectures she had from her far left
professors at her school, he stopped her and asked her point blank, how
she was doing in school.

She answered rather haughtily that she had a 4.0 GPA, and let him know
that it was tough to maintain. That she had to study all the time, never
had time to go out and party like other people she knew. She didn't even
have time for a boyfriend and didn't really have many college friends
because of spending all her time studying. That she was taking a more
difficult curriculum.

Her father listened and then asked, "How is your friend Mary." She
replied, "Mary is barely getting by", she continued, "all she has is
barely a 2.0 GPA" adding, "and all she takes are easy classes and she
never studies." But to explain further she continued emotionally, "But
Mary is so very popular on campus, college for her is a blast, she goes
to all the parties all the time and very often doesn't even show up for
classes because she is too hung over."

Her father then asked his daughter, "Why don't you go to the Dean's
office and ask him to deduct a 1.0 off your 4.0 GPA and give it to your
friend who only had a 2.0." He continued, "That way you will both have a
3.0 GPA and certainly that would be a fair equal distribution of GPA."

The daughter visibly shocked by the fathers suggestion angrily fired
back, "That wouldn't be fair! I worked really hard for mine, I did
without and Mary has done little or nothing, she played while I worked
real hard!"

The father slowly smiled and said, "Welcome to the Republican Party."
--

chickentribs · 05-23-2005, 12:37 PM

...when she finally got her report card in the mail, she noticed that her grade point was fine, but her 1 yr old daughter was already listed on academic probation! She called the school yelling "How can this be??"

"We needed to take a few grade points away from your daughter's future GPA in order to fund a dinner we had last night..." said the administrator

"That's not fair, what's my daughter supposed to do when it is her turn to go to school?"

Silence on the other end of the line...

She hung up the phone and marched back to the Democrats!

(Sorry - I know this isn't the politics forum, but I couldn't resist

)

Cynthetiq · 05-23-2005, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chickentribs

...when she finally got her report card in the mail, she noticed that her grade point was fine, but her 1 yr old daughter was already listed on academic probation! She called the school yelling "How can this be??"

"We needed to take a few grade points away from your daughter's future GPA in order to fund a dinner we had last night..." said the administrator

"That's not fair, what's my daughter supposed to do when it is her turn to go to school?"

Silence on the other end of the line...

She hung up the phone and marched back to the Democrats!

(Sorry - I know this isn't the politics forum, but I couldn't resist

)

and those that choose to not have kids? how does your scenario work for them?

chickentribs · 05-23-2005, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

and those that choose to not have kids? how does your scenario work for them?

The students who went to the public school and were taught abstinence by the local church elders you mean?? A little better, but their grades suffered too because they confused the Theory of Relativity with the story of Cain and Abel in science class.

ok, you baited me that time...

iccky · 05-26-2005, 10:15 PM

I don't mean to make this into a politics board discussion (I swore off the politics board awhile ago) but before we totally trash the progressive tax system I think a point should be made.

Now, a lot of the reason some people are rich is because they work hard. But a lot of it is also that they have been given great opportunities by our free society. Some people receive better opportunities then others, I doubt anyone will argue with that. These opportunities come about not just from sheer luck, but because we live in a free, open, peaceful and prosperous society. Taxes are the dues you pay to live in that society. It makes sense that people who have seen far greater benefits from that society should pay more.

Look at Bill Gates. Bill Gates worked really hard, but not millions of times harder then the average American. He also hit it big because of the innovations of thousands of other people, which happened in no small part because the United States has an excellent public education system, limited internal unrest, free expression etc. So it makes sense that Gates should pay more for the maintenance of that society then the average American.

I'd try to come up with a funny story to go with that but it's pretty late, maybe tomorrow.

flat5 · 05-27-2005, 01:56 AM

The stories are entertaining but oversimplify the US tax system.

Telluride · 05-30-2005, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee

Its about the fact that they made the money, and it's theirs. They aren't worried about fairness.

The right to keep what you've earned sounds like fairness to me.

05-23-2005, 12:37 PM	#5 (permalink)
chickentribs Addict Location: Mansion by day/Secret Lair by night	...when she finally got her report card in the mail, she noticed that her grade point was fine, but her 1 yr old daughter was already listed on academic probation! She called the school yelling "How can this be??" "We needed to take a few grade points away from your daughter's future GPA in order to fund a dinner we had last night..." said the administrator "That's not fair, what's my daughter supposed to do when it is her turn to go to school?" Silence on the other end of the line... She hung up the phone and marched back to the Democrats! (Sorry - I know this isn't the politics forum, but I couldn't resist ) __________________ Oft expectation fails... and most oft there Where most it promises - Shakespeare, W.

05-23-2005, 02:05 AM	#2 (permalink)
alansmithee Junkie	My doctor has that posted in his office (sans the Australia references), didn't know it was floating around the net. He's had it in his office for 3 years or so now. As to progressive tax systems from the rich man's perspective, it's not about having enough. Its about the fact that they made the money, and it's theirs. They aren't worried about fairness.

05-26-2005, 10:15 PM	#8 (permalink)
iccky Psycho Location: Princeton, NJ	I don't mean to make this into a politics board discussion (I swore off the politics board awhile ago) but before we totally trash the progressive tax system I think a point should be made. Now, a lot of the reason some people are rich is because they work hard. But a lot of it is also that they have been given great opportunities by our free society. Some people receive better opportunities then others, I doubt anyone will argue with that. These opportunities come about not just from sheer luck, but because we live in a free, open, peaceful and prosperous society. Taxes are the dues you pay to live in that society. It makes sense that people who have seen far greater benefits from that society should pay more. Look at Bill Gates. Bill Gates worked really hard, but not millions of times harder then the average American. He also hit it big because of the innovations of thousands of other people, which happened in no small part because the United States has an excellent public education system, limited internal unrest, free expression etc. So it makes sense that Gates should pay more for the maintenance of that society then the average American. I'd try to come up with a funny story to go with that but it's pretty late, maybe tomorrow.

05-27-2005, 01:56 AM	#9 (permalink)
flat5 Very Insignificant Pawn Location: Amsterdam, NL	The stories are entertaining but oversimplify the US tax system.