5 year old girl handcuffed in school
 

Linky

If you follow the link at the top there are a few video clips of what happened in the classroom. Please take the time to watch them so you have a better idea of what happened. I first saw this on the news this morning when I was at work, and I was curious to see if anyone had posted it. So I came home ran a quick search, and came up with nothing. Now, I'm wondering how many people think that handcuffing an out of control child is outrageous? Or think that something other than trying to reason with or restrain the child would have actually worked... From what I have seen I think that child should still be sitting in jail. I also think the parent/parents should be sitting in the same jail cell as the child and be forced to teach their child how to act appropriately because it has obviously never been done. Any parent that would actually defend their child in this situation is a complete idiot, and shouldn't be allowed to have a child. I think the school did the right thing. In a day and age where you can sue over any bullshit thing, you must call the cops. Because if that child would've been hit or fell and injured herself the parent/parents would sue the shit out of someone, and a teacher/teachers would lose their job/jobs.

I'm mostly interested in hearing the womens views on this. Because most women here think it's OK to hit their boyfriend/husband and not get hit back because of a huge size factor, which is complete bullshit, but we've all already discussed that so I'll stop now. Here is the same size factor... Now how many of you would hit this kid even though you could easily restrain her? Or would you hit your own child for acting out like that?

I really can't imagine the need for anybody to forcibly handcuff a 5 year old. Much less why they would feel that it took 3 grown men to do it...

The kid was being a snotty punk, was acting (for the most part) without reason, but does that excuse the use of force on a kid like that? No. Most kids act like that at some point, but they don't get cuffed for it .

'Nuff said. However frustrating dealing with this behavior must have been, there were ways of containing it. The response you validate is extremely out of proportion to her age.

the kid was being a little shit.

That said, she's a child. They weren't arresting her, so the handcuffs were to keep her from injuring people.

She's FIVE.

If three big cops and an educator were afraid of being hurt by a five year old, they need to find a new line of work.

Did the kid need to be calmed down? No question.

Did the kid need to be slammed on a table and cuffed? Hell no.

You want to jail a five year old for throwing a temper tantrum? Are you serious? Kids throw tantrums. Throwing them in the slammer is NOT the way to deal with it.

That teacher displayed serious restraint and patience. I would not have had that much restraint had that been my kid or were I the teacher - I guess that's why I don't have children and am not a teacher. :)

I think the handcuffing was not done bc it was needed but to teach the child a lesson.

That being said, I see nothing wrong with how this was handled.

Exactly. The child showed no respect to the school staff but certainly did for the police. Upon seeing the police she sat down and behaved as she should have been doing in the first place. Hopefully now she'll take instructions from school officials seriously.

She wasn't "slammed" on the table. What video were you watching?

This country is so pathetic. I mean, it's a five year old kid and they have to evacuate the classroom and call the cops. She should have been drug out of the classroom and spanked.

5 year old kids are not aware enough of their actions for an arrest to be justified. Likewise, parents cannot be held accountable for their children's actions. If the school wanted to expel the kid, fine, but even that is too extreme. The kid (and the parents) need counselling.

The kid was way out of line. The police showed remarkable restraint and deserve a Medal of Honor for their outstanding handling of the situation. I would have even been tolerant of their using mace which would have been way more than justified.

The teacher should get an immediate raise and a Medal of Honor. What was she to do? She handled it perfectly. We have tied their hands folks. She had no choice but to call security. Like the poster above, a spanking in the hallway or better yet, in front of the other kids would have put an end to it right away. But then their maniac parents would have complained too.

Children are coddled way too much. Fine or jail the parents too for wasting taxpayers money. Parents MUST be accountable for their actions. Kids are way out of control these days.

You know what is bullshit? The lawyer saying that the educators were "trying to provoke the child." The kid is five, she's being snotty. And as to parents being held responsible for their kids' actions, well, when the kids are old enough to know what they're doing, yeah, parents shouldn't be held responsible. However, if your five year old doesn't know how to behave, your parental skills should be called into questioning, because obviously they aren't effective.

The teachers and administration weren't allowed to do anything and the kid knew it. Putting her in handcuffs hopefully showed her that if you act like a little brat, there are consequences. Maybe next time she'll listen when her teachers tell her to stop.

I don't think it was necessary for the cops to have shown up, the teachers should have been able to handle it. In my opinion, those were shitty teachers. When I went to grade school, if I acted that way I would have been spanked. At the very least yelled at. And I would have gotten double that when I got home. So did I ever act like that little kid? Hell no.

Well, I guess it wasn't really the teachers fault. In this day and age they were probably wise to try not to touch the kid. But if/when I have kids, you can believe that they will be punished for being bad, not coddled.

Can someone please provide a direct link to the video ? Firefox isn't liking their html that much.... :confused:

A good smack would have calmed her down might fast.

as a teacher, i can't do anything physical to the child, neither can the principal. i have no problem with the cops putting her in handcuffs to protect themselves and the child from hitting others. i know a 5 year old could not hurt a grown-up, but after being hit, the grown-ups could have reacted in a negative way and possibly hurt the child. kids know that teachers and principals can't do anything to them. it's up to the parents to teach the children respect and self-control. a teacher can only do so much. the teacher did a DAMN GOOD job at attempting to calm the child down. kudos to her and kudos to the police for having the guts to do this to the girl. i hope the officers and school district don't get sued over this, they don't deserve that. the parent deserves some type of punishment for not teaching/controlling their child.

Alright, just to clarify a few things that obviously didn't get through.

1) They're campus police. They weren't arresting her, they were cuffing her so she didn't do any more damage.

2) The cops weren't AFRAID of her. They used three people to cuff her in order NOT TO HURT HER. Of course one person could do it, but that would involve throwing her on the ground, holding her arms behind her back with one hand and cuffing with the other. That might be painful for her.



Of course she deserved it. This is the second time that the administrators have called the campus police on this child. She was informed clearly that it was going to happen, and she persisted in being a little shit.Technically, she COULD have been arrested, because she purposely destroyed private property, but they didn't feel that was necessary. They were just going to remove her from the building and keep her there until the mother arrived and they could speak with her - perfectly reasonable.

More importantly, the mother is to blame here. The teachers at this school are obviously very lenient in doling out punishment - that tantrum went on for at LEAST the 6 minutes of the tape in the class, and the 5 in the office, probably longer. And all the teacher did to her the entire time was tell her to stop. "We're not allowed to destroy the room." The mother complained that the principal treated the child too harshly... I don't believe that for one god damned minute. If this video is representative of the incident the mother was talking about, she needs to get a fucking life.

The child hasn't been taught how to behave, and she has never been taught to respect, well, anything. She needs some tough love, and since the mother obviously isn't giving her any, the school has to step up. End of story.


Edit:
Classroom
and
Assistant Principal's Office

I personally had to load it in IE to get the videos to run. The Quicktime plugin didn't like them in Firefox, for whatever reason.

I completely agree.

Who said she was 'slammed' ? She wasn't 'slammed' against the table..let's not get dramatic, and she sure wasn't the victim, for cryin out loud.. she was out of control.

No kid should ever act out like that, there's some serious lack of discipline in that house for sure. She had no respect for anyone, and regardless of her age.. she needed to be contained and she needed to calm down before she hurt herself.

The outrageous thing is that it got to this point in the first place. Parents don't discipline their kid, the kid goes to school and acts like this, and society has placed so many restrictions on teachers that they can't touch the kid when he/she gets out of control or else the teacher could be fired and definitely sued. Were the cuffs needed? No. (And the cops were NOT overly forceful, either) But perhaps they gave the kid a taste of discipline that she obviously isn't getting at home.

people we are talking about a five year old, not a fifteen year old. Rare would be the occasion that you had just cause to cuff a five year old.

I'm not excusing her behavior, it was atrocious.

But a five year old throwing a tantrum is hardly an unusual event. Cops are not needed. Period.

I dont know about you, but I haven't seen any 5 y/o anywhere throwing a 'tantrum' like that. I know the cops weren't 'needed' but this roots into obvious lack of discipline and i think it taught her a lesson. I'm sure the cuffs were used to keep her from hurting herself. Some of you are thinking that just because she's 5 that the cuffs were excessive force or something of the sort, but all it did was keep her arms and fists from flying..she couldn't throw objects with her hands cuffed, which is better for everyone-- hands down.

I think that the teachers did an excellent job of handling the situation. There's not much that you can do to discipline a child if you're a teacher. It's obvious that this girl was aware of what police mean, and so she calmed down then.

I don't think this child should be in a public school. She (and probably her parents) has definite emotional issues that we cannot hold a public educator responsible for dealing with.

What should be done instead, if you do think that this was too harsh?

I'd sentence the mom to a year of probation with mandatory parenting classes. That behavior is inexcusable. Personally, I would have spanked the kid. I think the teachers did an excellent job given their constraints.

What do you want the teachers to do? Spank/beat the child?
I'm sure that the child's useless parents would love that because then they could sue the fuck out of the school and get paid an assload of cash for being useless parents. Is that a better alternative? I think not....

I would have tazered her for it. I'm only half kidding. I think this is one of the few times I'm going to agree with sixate :thumbsup: That childs behavior was unnacceptable and hopefully she has now learned that actions have consequences.

Unfortunately, if any adult were to lay a hand on a child besides his/her parents, they could be sued/arrested/etc. This is because of true menaces to society, like child molestors and abusers.

Police officers instill fear in children, since they know Mommy and Daddy are under police officers' power (getting a ticket, etc). My Political Science teacher was just saying today that the other day, he was eating breakfast with his family when a sheriff in full uniform say down to eat next to my prof's family. After seeing her parents being pulled over at least twice, his daughter quickly jumped into my professor's lap and would not budge.

Bringing in the big boys for something like that was justified. I'm sure it will teach her a good lesson, and she'll have a wicked tale to tell to her friends when she gets older.

"Dude, when I was five, police officers cuffed me because I was an irritating, psycho shit."

I've got a 5-year-old, and having seen the video and read this I think Mooseman has it just right.

My children get spankings when they get out of line, and personally if I had the power when my daughter starts school in the fall I would give her teacher the right to do the same. This entire episode stems from a complete lack of respect for anything, she knows the teachers can't do anything and I think it's dispicable that her mother's reaction is to get a lawyer!

Personally if my children were ever to throw a tantrum like that, especially in school where the poor teachers aren't paid enough as it is, I would welcome the police putting them in handcuffs in the hopes that it would make the point that the behavior is completely inexcusable. Then I would have a hard time apologizing enough to those poor educators for my children having subjected them to such a disruptive, disrespectful, and unnecessary outburst.

I think her and her mother need to grow the hell up before we make another situation where we tell everybody else that this type of behavior is acceptable and it's the cops that are at fault and not this 5-year-old.

I like StanT's idea of parenting classes because that is the real problem here. Of course the mother thinks the assistant principal was being too harsh, Dibenedetto actually told the girl no which is probably more than mom ever did.

I think it's a shame that this girl has been shuffled off to another school. I understand that since there is an investigation that is probably the best course of action, but I think it might perpetuate the problem.

I hope neither the teachers nor the officers are disciplined for this in the least.

god. i love kids and thought i had the utmost patience for them, but this video proves me wrong. i would have loved to slapped the kid silly.

that aside, i think the principal did an excellent job all around. cuffing her was necessary and they did, imho, everything great. sad to say, after watching the entirety of both clips, i was really glad she started crying.

rest assured fellow tfp'ers, if my kid acts out of line this way, i will smack the crap out of them, and to do society a favor, each and every one of you is allowed to as well.

The authorities were right to restrain the child, and would not have been wrong if they had held her back. The parents should have disciplined the child better so as to avoid this kind of incident. I would not physically punish a child past spanking or a light slap on the hand or cheek that would not cause any damage. The parents should be punished by the legal system for negligent upbringing of the child.

See, there are actually parents who feel they are responsible for their children's actions.
*applause* :thumbsup:

For all of you that say this child should be slapped/spanked/what have you, I disagree. I think she needs a lot of patience and firmness, and not the kind that comes from your hand.

dirtyrascal7 (my boyfriend and fellow TFPer) is an absolutely excellent example of a person who was brought up with no physical violence whatsoever. He was brought up to respect others and his parents were firm, but not physical. You know what he is today? A well-adjusted, mature, respectful adult. Go figure.

Not all children are the same, as this video shows. I do not advocate family violence, but I do think that light spankings can be set in place as a punishment when being firm simply DOES NOT work. It's great your boyfriend was a good child, but not all children are that way.

spankings all depend on the parents belief. you can find many well adjusted, respectable, and respected people that were spanked growing up, just as you could find many well adjusted, respectable, and respected people that weren't spanked as a child. it's all in the parents beliefs and how they choose to bring their children up that makes all the difference in the world.

another thing, you could find many screwed up people that were spanked as a child and many screwed up people that weren't spanked as a child. it once again depends on how the parents raised them.

If you hadn't noticed, they're already "suing the fuck" out of the cops. I'm not sure why you seem to think suing the cops is so much better than suing the school. And I'll tell ya what, they'll most likely win, and get paid "an assload of cash" anyway.

I want the school to use standard methods of discipline. I don't want little kids to be manhandled by the cops because they throw a fit. If the kid is too disruptive, then the kid needs to be removed from the classroom. Every district nowadays has an alternative learning center, or a "last chance" school, or whatever they call it. Throw her in there where she belongs if she's that much of a holy terror.

And by all means, charge the parents with anything you can.

It seems it's a lose-lose situation. If the little girl hadn't been cuffed and she hurt herself, her mom might've sued for that. :rolleyes:

First, I think those people did exactly what they were supposed to do given their positions. Even though many of you think a good spanking from the assistant principal would have solved it, it's still illegal for her to do that. She's not allowed to touch the kid like that. End of story.

Second, while I see appropriately dispensed spankings as acceptable in certain situations, I don't think this is one of them. When I was about her age, I tried to beat up my big brother. I don't remember why. But I do remember being trapped on the couch under his giant ass for what seemed like forever (yes, he sat on me). It was probably only about 5 minutes. You can bet I calmed the heck down. Did I ever try to beat him up again? Nope.

This obviously isn't the first time that kid has had behavioral trouble. I suspect she has some kind of learning disability or other disorder that is making her very angry, but I can't really know. Maybe she was just a brat like everybody else seems to think. Either way, the people at the school (including the police) did exactly what they were supposed to do.

AAARGH!! the fact that there is a lawsuit for this is CRAZY. i hope to heavens it gets thrown out instantly. the child is freakin' brat.

IMO
here's the root of it...
"Any parent that would actually defend their child in this situation is a complete idiot, and shouldn't be allowed to have a child." - sixate

sadly, mandatory nuetering / spaying is only in place for animals from the pound. where coincidently, you can find much better behavior from the young ones.

but this is a terrible awful slope we're headed down. the bad side of letting everyone live their own life is that everyone is free to be an ass and raise their children to be asses as well.

BUT when you cross the line into destructive behavior (this girl did) you will be dealt with (and she was)

Huzzah to all authorities involved.

Parents like that should be deported. Sure, raise your kid to be a useless brat, because you suck as a parent, then sue someone for your problem.

You can't have it both ways.

Decades of hamstringing the school system in handling troublesome students have led to what happened to that little girl.

The school faculty was afraid to do anything for fear of being sued. They took the only course open. It may be silly to call the cops (and they were cops St. Petersburg police to be exact), but it was the only recourse they had after the mother failed to show up. They were trying to cover their asses and it appears it didn't do any good as the mother is already talking about pressing charges.

It was handled the best it possibly could have been handled. And that's what makes it reprehensible. That the police being called to talk down and ultimately hand cuff a little girl because the school was too afraid and the mother unwilling to assume responsibility for this kid and discipline her for her actions.

In this case, every one is a loser, this girl's mother especially. She should hang her head in shame.

/waits patiently for the big public outcry about this followed by media blitz of "it could happen to your child" "news" stories.

Should have suspended the child. Then the parents would have had to deal with the problem atleast temporarily. They would have to take time out of their work to find a place for the child to be during the day, plus other stuff. It would be so much of an inconvenience that they would have to deal with the problem somewhat. Maybe the child would end up getting in so much trouble from her parents that she would think twice before acting like that again. It would have eliminated the lawsuit atleast. Expelling a child at that age, though, is a bit extreme imo.

They cuffed her becuase she couldn't be trusted to sit there unrestrained. There were three officers because the child needed to be dealt with by more than a firm voice, and if there are three, she could be handled with a lower probability of incurring physical harm. This was more than 'just a tantrum'. These people weren't out to get her or provoke her. The school did all that it could do within it's authority yet the child failed to respond appropriately. She neccesitated measures more extreme than commonly used on wee kids becuase her behavior was more extreme than commonly done by wee kids. She isn't some crying victim in a jail cell. I suppose letting a cuffed eight year old punk sweat in the rear of a cruiser while the bike he stole is returned to it's owner is grounds for a lawsuit too. Good lord they could develop a complex!

I'm amazed that the police showed up at all.

They actually stopped whatever they were doing to travel to a school in order to arrest a five year old girl!

She's five.

One - Two - Three - Four - Five.

5.

Did you even watch the video? The teacher involved had her hands tied. She did everything in her power to stop the child, and it didn't stop. The only choices left were to a) wait for the mother (still an hour away, during which the child is allowed to roam free and break things in the school? good call there) or b) physically restrain her. The teacher cannot touch the child. The police, however, CAN.

That's what police are for. I cannot stress this enough. Police are allowed to restrain someone who they feel is a threat to themselves or others, or if they feel that they will commit further crimes. The child was obviously a case of someone who would either hurt herself, or (obviously) keep up her tantrum and break things. The fact that she has bad parents or a learning disability, or that she's five, is irrelevant to the fact that bringing in the cops was the only thing the teachers could do.


What if she's five and a half? Or six? Or six and a half? Or seven? Or seven and a half? Or eight? Or eight and a half? Or nine? Or nine and a half? Or ten? Or ten and a half? Or eleven? Or eleven and a half? Or twelve? Or twelve and a half? Or thirteen? Or thirteen and a half? Or fourteen? Or fourteen and a half? Or fifteen? Or fifteen and a half? Or sixteen? Or sixteen and a half? Or seventeen? Or eighteen? Or nineteen? Or twenty? Do I need to continue?

Where do you draw the line? It's obviously not eighteen, because plenty of fifteen year old children kill each other. Would you say you shouldn't bring cops in to restrain a fifteen year old girl who was threatening to kill someone?

What if a five year old was doing the same thing? Is there still no reason ever to cuff a five year old?

The fact is, they were left with no option but physical force. Since the teachers can't do that, they called the people who can. Just because the child cried about it doesn't mean it was unreasonable or excessive. The cops didn't hurt her, they just restrained her, and that's exactly what they should have done.



Sorry, when the teacher said they were calling the campus police, I assumed that's who'd shown up... my bad. My point stands, however. They didn't arrest the child and toss her in jail, they held her in custody until the mother could take her. That's all that happened.

I'm not a woman, but here goes

I think the presence of the police was a move to transfer the responsibility of the girl from the school to someone else. That call was completely appropriate. They called the mother first, who couldn't come for over an hour. They called the police next (what they told the mother they would do -- more pressure on the mom to take responsibility). It was an awkward move, but there was little alternative for a violent kid acting out.

I think the handcuffs were over the top, unless the police thought the girl might hurt herself or others. Once the police take control, though, they are there to do the job efficiently and decisively. Being 5 years old isn't the point -- the uncontrollable behavior is the point. It's frustrating to watch a 5 year old act that way, but the presence of the video provides clear evidence of the need to control the girl's behavior.

Mace? Really? On a five year old? Wow. I feel that's ridiculously extreme, and would not have solved a thing.

I can't disagree with the rest of your post, however. While I understand the teacher couldn't have done it, what that kid should have gotten was a good spanking. 10 swats to the tush and she would have re-thought her actions, I bet. Clearly, I don't believe in abuse, but spanking for extreme behavior such as this is justified.
The teachers handled it beautifully, and while the handcuffs may not have been necessary, they kept her from hitting anyone else.

I don't think *any* of us know enough about this five-year-old to be commenting on any of this...

Sure you can see the tantrum, etc. But ultimately we have no idea what was really happening and making comments on this is ultimately pointless.

yes.

That's the most ridiculous thing I noticed while watching the video. She [the teacher] is clearly so afraid of litigation that she is frightened to take control of the situation. She also took further precautions by having a colleague record the entire event on video, possibly to be used as evidence in her defence.

You can't seriously expect the police to attend (in under an hour) every instance of a small child having a tantrum in every school in the land?

Police officer hours x 2 x Obnoxious 5 year olds = Glad it's not my taxes being spent.

Couldn't the same be said about commenting about commenting?

I babysat a 5 yr old boy who acted much like this girl on a daily basis. I came to the point where I could no longer watch him. That point came in less than 2 weeks. He was breaking things, punching other children and demading more of my time than he deserved. Honestly I did all I could to prevent his outbursts which were numerous throughout the day. A child like that needs more than the standard discipline. Time outs aren't sufficient.

Apparently from the sound of it the girl acted out regularly. The teachers handled things quite well. The fact that the policemen handcuffed the child was not excessive. She was not harmed. The parents defending their child, saying that the educators followed their child too closely and provoked her is lame. As an educator I would have followed just as closely. When the child is damaging property you want to be close enough to catch things or stop something from breaking. There's no harm in that. The educators did all they could and nothing wrong.

My hope is that the arrest will have shown the child that there are serious consequences for violence. Unfortunately her parents defending her and blaming the authorities is only going to undermine that lesson. Still the officers did what the child needed. Kudos to those educators. I bet their glad to be rid of the brat but sad that she won't learn to control herself.

Parents who allow their children to behave violently without retribution are deporable and disgust me.

Personally, if my children ever displayed behavior like this, serious discipline would be raining down at home. I watched the video (having heard only that a 5 year old had been handcuffed) completely ready to enter judgement against the school and the police. Then I watched what the girl was doing. She was 100% out of control. Punching, slapping, kicking, throwing crap around, pulling things down. And you know what, the school administrators can't stop her, because if they restrain her at all, lawsuit time. Should she have been restrained by the police. Hell yeah. As for slamming her on a table, puhlease. They used three cops specifically to restrain her without using undue force. I swear to god, if that was my child and I saw that video, I would be so completely embarassed, the last thing on my mind would be a lawsuit against the cops. And for those who keep saying "it was only a 5 year old" I ask you, how many of you have raised a child through age 5?

I have, and that is completely, and outright unacceptable behavior. That child was not acting like a typical 5 year old. And another thing, that mother needs to slapped around herself for even thinking of trying to sue over this. That child learned that behavior at home, no matter what you want to think. My kids don't turn into red-eyed, froth spewing demons when they walk out the door to go to school. Their behavior at school is an extension of how they have been raised at home. Culpability continues to disappear in this country.

And for the record, I have another child due this July, and she will also be raised to be a courteous and respectful child. It's learned at home people, and if you want to take all of the disciplinary rights away from the school, lets offer some other alternatives that could have been used in this scenario, and quit focusing on the "it was a 5 year old". God this thing pisses me off that the pathetic excuse of a mother may get cash out of this thing. Great fucking lesson for the "5 year old" to learn.

I think I am going to take the dissenting opinion here, and say that the handcuffs were a good thing. I have seen it happen once or twice around here as well, where the police handcuff a child, typically as a scare tactic. For instance, I was in a local store and apparently younger child (maybe around 8ish) was shoplifting. The police were called and the child was handcuffed - obviously they weren't going to take him to jail, but I bet that kid (judging by the way he responded to the possiblity) is going to think twice before doing anything that could land him in that situation again.

Yet another reason I will not be having children.

I don't want to subject myself nor my offspring to community members like this 5 year old and her mother.

She should have been restrained with whatever means necessary to keep her from harming herself or other people.

I'm with cyn.

She should have been restrained as a way to keep her and her surroundings safe.

Personal story. In my 1st grade class (a horribly overcrowded class of 36 5-6 yr olds and 1 teacher), one child started acting almost exactly like this one did, throwing stuff, punching at other kids, just going psycho for no real reason. The teacher simply walked nextdoor to get a teacher assistant from the other first grade class to come into our class. She then opened her desk drawer, grabbed a paddle, grabbed the screaming kid by the wrist, dragged him into the hallway and shut the door. To this day, i remember hearing about 3 loud pops and watching the door open with the returning teacher and a sniffling child. She thanked the assistant for watching the class and the kid sat quietly for the rest of the day. The whole incident took about 5 minutes from the time the kid threw everything from his desk till everything was back to normal. I dont' remember any other incidents in the class after that..

Of course, this was 22 years ago and we all had to have our parents sign waivers saying teachers could punish children as they saw fit, including corporal punishment.

I do not know how i would have handled either of these two situations. I have to give credit to the teacher and officers in this video as I honestly do not believe i could have shown that much restraint and patience. I honestly think that parents will come out on the side of the teachers in this incident.

How instructive is this in the fact that the kid acted this way to begin with? If I'd have been raising THAT much hell in school, you can bet my mum would have been down there in a heartbeat, and I wouldn't have been sitting down for the rest of that day, I can assure you. And now she sues, quelle surprise. This woman should be spayed.

According to the story, she was doing it as a self-improvement exercise.

It's extreme, but teacher's shouldn't have to deal with a child behaving that way. When my mom went to school teachers taught. Nowadays teachers are psycholgists, social workers, family liasons. In an overstuffed classroom of 30 children a teacher may have 10 behaviour problems. The child's mother obviously wasn't going to stand up and take control of her child so the school called the police. She had no right to destroy that classroom and she should know better. Hopefully she's learned a lesson, and hopefully her mother will learn a thing or two from this too.

You could sat the same for ANY news item from Scott Peterson to OJ, to Bush and Clinton. I don't need to "know" the individual to have an opinion about it.

Also, it doesn't matter what's REALLY happening there, the person is out of control and a possible danger to herself and other people around her.

I went back, read the article again, view the videos again, and read the comments. I do not understand those who think that the handcuffing was not deserved. I have a feeling that most of those who stated as such are not parents nor have worked with difficult children ever. The handcuffing was a LESSON, not an intent to jail and prosecute. The parent had a chance to come get her child and a warning that security would be called if she did not come. She knows how her child can behave. I really hope the suit does not go through. I feel so bad for those educators.

IF anything the school should be sueing the parents for lost pay, classroom time (which will probably take at least a few days to catch up on material), stress, and damage to property. Are those parents replacing the teacher's ceramic apple? I have a feeling they aren't. What about the time spent cleaning up after her destruction in the office. That girl won't change her behavior because the parents won't take responsibility for it or teach her to do so as well.

I found it interesting that in the video the officer said to the girl "You remember me? I'm the one who told you're mother that I would handcuff you..." What does that tell you? The mother had warning that this would happen or he's had to deal with this child before. She has NO right to sue because her daughter did this again and she didn't want to come stop it. The child even fought the officers who were putting the handcuffs on. Other children woudl cry of course but most I know would probably be limp and contrite when put in handcuffs by an officer. She has no respect for any authority and will be a danger to herself and others.

AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH COPS! THEY ARE TOO FUCKING OVER ZEALOUS!

In my own experience, It was the middle of January and it was so cold it snowed the next day. I was driving home from dinner at my friend's house with my gf. We get off of work about 10pm so we weren't done and on our way back home until about 12am. I signal and turn from the inner lane to the left turn lane, right after I get in it, the light turns green, I don't even get a chance to fully stop before it's green and I can go. In the left turn lane opposite of me a police cruiser. I continue after making my lane change to make the turn, as you know who own a car, after changing lanes and straightening out your turn signal automatically turns off. Well this is what happened, if I had had more time to stop and not just keep on through I might have turned the signal back on if I had known it was off. I get pulled over about 3 blocks down from the light. He asks me for license and registration and insurance, I hand it over to him and he checks it and gives it back, he then asks me if my turn signals are out, I respond no, he has me turn them on to check, and he confirms they work. He then asks me why I didn't signal, I told him that I thought it was still on from the lane change because the light changed so quickly I didn't have time to even notice it had turned off. He then asks me in a menacing voice "How much Marijauna have you been smoking tonight!?!" I reply "None, I don't do that kinda stuff." He comes back with, "Well your whole car reaks of it! Get out of the car! We're searching your vehicle!!" Opens the door and literally pulls me out of it and slams me against the car. He asks me if I have anything illegal on me or in the car that he might find. I reply I don't (BECAUSE I DON'T!) He begins to search me and finds in my pocket some irish cream flavored cigars that I smoke sometimes. He asks me what they are, and I reply flavored cigars I smoke sometimes after work, and that it is probably what he smells. Another officer during this is on the curb just standing there, not taking notes, not doing shit while this one is being an asshole. He then grabs me and pulls me over to the curb and forcibly seats me on the curb. He then goes over to the passanger side of the car, grabs my gf by the hair and pulls her out of the car and proceeds to search and grope her, he then does the same to her and puts her on the curb beside me. He ravages through my car tearing everything up trying to find something that isn't there, and leaves us on the curb shivering for about 15 minutes while the other doush just stands there looking bored, like oh boy, here he goes again. After about a half hour of this whole ordeal and him not finding anything he finally says we can get in the car and leave, but not before issuing me a "warning" about using my signal. All this because cops are overzealous and want to turn anything, even if it's nothing into an episode of "COPS"! I know there are some good ones out there, I happen to know some of them, but for the most part they just like to harrass people and I hate it and I hate them.

^^^

ummm thread jack?????

what does THAT have to do with this discussion?

This wasn't 'just a tantrum' and the girl was not arrested.

The schools are bastions of liability and lawsuit. The teacher already did all she could and didn't do anymore becuase if she did she would be in a world of shit. Since the mother was far off, they got the cops. The child couldn't be trusted to remain seated and not continue breaking and ruffling things up, so they cuffed her to prevent further property damage. Bear in mind, this is a tantrum bad enough that the response necessitated exceeds the authority of the school. How is the cuffing unjustified?

No, becuase it's beyond reason to make these comparisons. If you think that the same standards ought to apply to twenty year olds and 5 year olds, i for damn sure hope you don't work at the department of moter vehicles or voter registration.

Claiming this is a slippery slope is lazy thinking, plain and simple. We make distinctions all the time. We have ideas and values about what is appropriate responses to children of different ages.

If a 2 month old spits in your eye, you cuss under your breath, clean it up, and call them "cutie pie." If a 20 year old does that, you've probably got a fight on your hands. The maturity of the child creates the intention and the ability to hold them accountable for their actions.

When it comes to cuffing the person like this you're not responding to the offender as a person, you're responding to their actions. That she is five is why preceding the cuffs they tried to deal with her as they did.

Your personal experience in one area doesn't necessarily reflect on all law enforcement officers.

(back on topic)

The problem doesn't lie with the teachers or with the officers. The problem lies with the parent and the instruction given to the child, or with the child herself. The officers were only responding to the situation according to their training.

those that are armchair parents should take a look at this thread Arguing with a 5 year old and look at the responses from those that do have parents and maybe you'll see that this child was above and beyond being completely unreasonable.

edit: those that ARE parents.... :D

From someone who was a complete brat at that age, and suffered many many times at the hands of my parents, you have to start using force at one point or another.

You cannot let a child go charging around like that unrestricted, it's not fair on anyone. The school can't do squat beyond telling her to calm down, hell, they could probably get sued by some idiot for that. Anyone who's raised an unruly child will tell you how hard it is to shut them the hell up.

In my opinion, the police were completly justified in handcuffing her, and as someone else said, if that was my child, i'd be more embarressed the little git had behaved so badly as to get the police involved.



Note: Please excuse the cursing, bad day.

I don't see why everyone's so sympathetic toward the school. To the people saying the school employees hands were tied, bullshit. They may not have been able to restrain the kid, but if the kid's been a terror like this so many times before, as was indicated in the article, then her butt should have been kicked out. They kept letting the problem child invade their school, that's their fault.

Handcuffing a five year old child is WRONG.

Getting a 5 yr old kicked out of school may be harder than you think. From what I understand, this is a public school, A private one would find it easier to suspend the child. Who knows how long this went before this and how bad it got. Most likely this is the worst it had gotten and at this point she WAS suspended. You can't suspend them though until it does get to a certain point.

Did you watch the movie? The kid was way out of control. Someone needed to get some control over her. You_do_not_swing_at_your_teachers.

Obviously her parent(s) haven't shown her how to not act like an idiot, so she was treated as such.

I think the problem is the schools and our society. In an effort to dummy us down and take away the hurt feelings like red ink and losing, we are breeding more and more children like this. She'll get some medicine and be a zombie like every other drugged kid and labeled with some 'condition', when in reaility all she needs is her butt jerked up around her ears.

tottally agree....

i hope this family doesnt get a dime from the city

When a student assaults a teacher repeatidly, handcuffs are deserved. Hitting people is not something that should be tolerated.

From my point of view, I simply do not believe any police officer that needs handcuffs to restrain a 5 year old girl who has obvious emotional problems is fit for the job - for a several reasons I would assume are self evident.

My mother is a teacher as well, and has had to put up with accusations that she struck one of her kids. Does anyone here who is wagging their finger at the teacher for being afraid of litigation know just how much time and energy is wasted on these kinds of claims (when they're false, I don't believe it's a waste of time to prosecute teachers who actually abuse children), and how damaging it is to a teacher's reputation and how taxing it is on their mental state?

The threat of litigation quite literally ties the teacher's hands behind their back. authority is a lost concept on this girl's generation, because people who should have authority over them are forced to act like pussies. This child is not going to grow up to respect authority, she will grow up to fear cops. For this reason I don't think the cops should have been involved, or that the child should have been handcuffed. The school personnel should have been equipped with the ability to take control of the situation instead of being armed with non-threatening gestures and passive words. This is indicative that for cases like this, the current discipline guidelines are ineffective and need to be redefined.

What the girl needed was to be taught the consequences of her actions. The teacher exercised more restraint than I could have mustered, and did everything she was permitted to do in order to try and get a handle on the situation. Does handcuffing a five year old seem excessive? yes. Do I think it was unnecessary? yes. But cops are the only ones legally allowed to physically restrain her. The child was put into cuffs to stop her from injuring herself, others, and doing any more damage. I would like to hear some alternative suggestions from everyone saying how wrong it was to cuff a five year old.

All the arguments that "they couldn't do anything BUT have the girl handcuffed or they'd get sued!" are forgetting one small fact.

They had the kid handcuffed, and the woman's suing anyway.

And that pretty much sums it up for me.
However, I will add that "back in my day", I'd have gotten sent to the principals office, and a wooden paddle would've been laid across my ass. Fear? Oh, yeah. But well tempered with a healthy dose of respect. That is something that I find almost completely lacking these days...respect.
I do not like that the police found it necessary to handcuff a five year old little girl. And yes, I do believe that it was necessary. Perhaps "Mom" should be arrested on multiple counts of child endangerment (how many other kids were in her daughter's class) for turning that little hellion loose on them.
Oh, and by the way, "Mom" was an hour away? What the hell is that?

I have yet to hear from those blaming the school & the police any kind of constructive alternative that would have a)immediately brought the situation under control, and b) not resulted in anyone being sued.

Sometimes it takes force to teach kids a lesson. Living in St. pete, I have seen first hand how some of these kids are raised. They stand on curbs and pretend to jump into the street just to make you swirve and slam on the brakes... they think its funny. Their parents do nothing about it, infact their parents are nowhere to be seen. They have no respect for anyone or anything. They are raised to hate any form of authority. At my former high school, a teacher was assaulted by a student (who beat him with a large belt buckle) and ended up in the hospital... its not unusual to have half a class period disrupted while kids verbally abuse their teachers. When parents do nothing to guide or disipline their children... this happens.

Perhaps, but a five-year-old is capable of communicating and knowing that the behavior is unacceptable, I've been teaching that to my children since before they could walk and you can ask my 5-year-old what happens if she misbehaves and she will tell you.

This child has no grasp on the consequences of her action and I would venture to guess that her parent/parents have been absolving her of responsibility for her entire life using the excuse "she's only a kid." They have to start learning sometime, and in this case it's gone long enough that the only possible lesson thanks to the limitations placed on the teachers had to be delivered by the police handcuffing her.

You say that the handcuffing was unnecessary, what would you have used as an alternative that didn't require intervention and that the teacher had not already attempted?

Here's a good thermometer to tell if the force was unnecessary - My neighbor girl loves to come over and hang out after school here. I was watching the videos of this kid while she was here and she and her friend and my daughter came over to watch. One is 10 yrs old, one is 9 yrs old, and my daughter is 4. All of them said "Where's her mom? Why didn't she come?" and then later. "If I did something like that I'd be grounded for a week." So without telling them what I thought I said "Do you think it was ok that they put handcuffs on her?" The consensus was YES- she asked for it. If KIDS, who commonly express indignance at "unjust" grounding think that this girl needed to be restrained in such a way then why would we be upset about it?

I just thought it was interesting that these kids were shocked at the girls behavior - Obviously even they recognize that it's not normal or appropriate.

I rewatched the videos because I cannot believe some of the responses that people have. I was double checking my own thoughts and impressions by watching it again.

While dirtyrascal7 may be an well adjusted person, I can count numerous other people who are not, including 2 cousins who still live at home with their mother and they are both over 35, are not well adjusted, not respectful, and definitely not mature adults.

I think the child should get suspended, from what I heard this is not the first time she has done this. The child should be suspended, child welfare should be notified. The polices should be warned, not sued. If mom desided to sue the school I hope the Asst. principal counter sues. But I bet all that will happen is the teacher will be suspended the school will fork over a cool mill. and the police will have to issue bonds to pay for toilet paper.

I agree wholeheartedly. If it weren't for the whole 'illegal because there are molesters and not-nice teachers' thing.

I think the handcuffs were an amazing idea. No, she wasn't actually being subdued (she wasn't a threat, obviously), and no, she obviously wasn't going to actually be arrested. But does the child know this? No. And does the child need to be brought -harshly- back to reality. Hells yes.

If I were there, I would have cuffed her, escorted her to the police car, not be very nice about it, let her know she was in -serious- trouble. Maybe even bring her back to the station. Phone the mother from there. Obviously, the mother needs a hand raising this child.

Tell the mother that a situation escalated at the school, and that the child would have to be picked up from the police station.

On a related note, I sincerely believe that until a certain age (defintely under ten) parents should be held accountable for the actions of their children. No, its not fair that if a child throws a fit and breaks something, the parents are blamed. But it might make parents a little more likely to teach their children not to break things, and not to be punk-asses.

Perhaps the mother should be grounded, and have a police officer sit her down in a chair and sream at her face until she cried. Tell her to grow up, and learn how to be a real parent. How to raise a real kid.

Gah.

Their solution didn't immediately bring it under control - they had to wait for the cops to get there.

And I frankly dont care if someone gets sued. I care about doing what's right.

And I did offer a solution. It would have fixed the problem before it happened. Kick her ass out of school once it becomes obvious she's an uncorrectable behavior problem. And if you can't kick her out, ship her over to the district's "special" school. Most districts have 'em. It's where they stuff the little hellions who won't respond to normal discipline.

If she'd been out of the building permanently, she wouldn't have had the opportunity to do what she did. I call that a better than immediate solution.

Why is it wrong by virtue of the fact she is five?

Ok, since your "solution" would have required them to travel backwards in time from when the incident happened (which I'm pretty sure most public schools don't have the funding to do), what would you have suggested they have done at 2 p.m. on March 14th, that would have resolved the situation at hand more quickly, and avoided any further violence, injury, or damage to public/private property?

You're not getting me. Had they been acting responsibly, they wouldn't have had to do anything at 2 p.m. on March 14th. The school is still at fault.

You all are saying the school's hands are tied. While I agree that idiotic suehappy parents have made it so touching a child, even to stop her from killing another kid, means the school will be out tens of thousands of lawsuit dollars, that does not mean a school's hands are tied.

The problem is that the school's administrators were lazy slobs who didn't do their jobs, so they wound up in a bad situation.

It's like a guy saying "gee, my hands were tied, I had to kill the bear before it killed me" after marching straight into its den, capturing its cub, then waiting 3 hours for the bear to return. Sure, at that particular moment there's no choice but to kill the bear, but had this guy not made multiple dumbass moves before the bear got back, he wouldn't have found himself in that situation in the first place.

The school neglected to take care of the problem when they had the chance, then found themselves in a bad spot in which they had no choice but to call the cops. The fact that at that point they had no choice does not excuse them from blame for backing themselves into that corner in the first place.

And once the cops got there, they HAVE the right to touch the kid. If three big cops can't stop a kid from swinging at them without having to resort to clapping the kid in irons, then they need to consider a desk job.

It's a bad situation all around. It could have been prevented in the first place, and once it happened anyway the cops acted like the kid was a street thug who could actually do them harm rather than a little 5 year old girl who, while being unable to control herself, does not have the physical capability to hurt them.

^Does your suggestion and bear analogy work for every child that has been a problematic student? Just ship them off and let someone else deal with them?

I thought the situation was handled with perfection. Seems to me that the cops simply acted on their previous threat, which resulted in negative consequences for the girl. Negative reinforcement.. a psych 101 staple! Had the cops NOT done what they said they'd do.. I can only imagine the kind of license that would have given her to act a fool the next time.

Yes, my suggestion works for every child that's a holy terror in class. Schools are not supposed to be babysitters, and their job description does not entail reining in someone's hellspawn. They're there to teach the kids that are there to learn. Any distraction from that mission should be eliminated. Easy as that. To allow asshole kids to continue to disrupt classes is not fair to the rest of the kids who are there to get something out of going to school.

By the way, your psychology is wrong. That wasn't negative reinforcement because the cops introduced a stimulus. Negative reinforcement is the removal of stimulus.

No negative reinforcement is punishment of some sort, not removal of stimulus. Positive reinforcement is rewards, and encouragement. This is what I was taught in EVERY Elementary Education class.

Also the number of cops used was in an effort to restrain her without injuring her. She resisted them putting the cuffs on her. One firmly held one arm, one the other, and the third put the cuffs on instead of slapping cuffs on hard enough to click them closed and being rough with her.

I can only interprete this as a pandemic loss of scale, of perspective. This is a five year old child having a tantrum. Suing for millions of dollars in this case is as inappropriate as using handcuffs on a small child is.

When I read the responses in this thread, again and again I feel myself I must check... we are talking about a five year old child . I am reading people saying "she started it" or "she hit the teacher, she had it coming", and... we are talking about a 5 year old.

Anyone who believes that it is an appropriate use of police resource to send three officers to deal with an upset 5 year old who has broken an ornament and had a tantrum has a perception which I can reconcile my own too. Anyone who makes arguments about cause and effect, about consequences and actions... and we are talking about a 5 year old girl... I simply have no conception of where you can be coming from.

Clearly the lawsuit is opportunisim... the police officers responsible should be dismissed immediately, the school should apologise to the parents and child, and we should just get on with things. Do we really want to live in a world of SWAT teams being called into kindergarten classes? It is like a nightmare come to life.

I totally agree, Strange-o.

That's a shame, because shakran is correct. Negative reinforcement is the removal of a stimulus. You (or your class, perhaps) are mixing punishment and reinforcement.

The main issues I see here are that the girl was calm by the time the police arrived. She didn't, as was inaccurately stated by a previous member, fight the police when they came in the room.

The teacher was filming the student. The student knew she was on camera and we don't know, without a careful psychological evaluation, how much of an effect that had on her actions. She might have been reinacting what she's seen on numerous television shows or she may have been acting for the camera on her own. Either way, the camera should have not been rolling during her tantrum, especially once it became clear it was having an effect on her behavior. Even adults act ridiculous in front of lenses. This area of human psychology is probably ripe for study if it hasn't already been done.

The teacher shouldn't have stood there and tried to calm the child down once it became clear that was acting as a stimulus for the behavior. The child was begging for, and receiving, attention. The introduction of all the postive stimulii (attention from the teacher, attention from the camera, attention from the police) reinforced her behavior. She got exactly what she desired and none of this, in any way, will reduce her behavior in the future. I wonder if the whole lot of you recommending parenting classes along with physical violence would be surprised to find that child development classes would reiterate what I just wrote and explain how your spankings would actually reinforce the behavior--not reduce it.

The mother couldn't come to her child's aid. We don't know why, but we can assume she was at work rather than at home doing drugs (which I've heard/read in various parts of online/real-life venues). The child was well-dressed, well-groomed, and even if it was a dual-parent home, it's not unreasonable to infer that the mother was at work. My mother couldn't just leave work when a problem erupted at school. Anger directed at schools or mothers for how children are raised is better directed at the socio-economic milleiu that demands these kinds of realities.

What could have been done?

The same thing that institutions around the United States do with children experiencing behavioral problems: give the child positive attention or remove attention.

1. The teacher could have left the room. Plain and simple, the child was reacting to the adult. She was tearing things off the wall. She wasn't holding a gun. The worst case scenario is that she would get up on a desk and fall off. Besides that being absurd, a child certainly doesn't lose sense of balance simply because she's angry, children fall off things all the time and don't end up in the hospital.

2. The adult (and even the adult holding the pointless/repulsive video camera and filming the event which was later released to the public) could have and should have grabbed the child and given her a hug until the child calmed down. My wife does this all the time. It works. The woman was very large and certainly capable of wrapping herself around the child without being hurt by the girl. The girl's arms weren't even long enough to wrap around the body of the woman--that is, she wouldn't have been able to even swing her fists if the woman had grabbed that child in a huge bear hug. The child would have calmed down in around 15 minutes--but certainly less than the hour it took with the adults amping her up by their interaction with her tantrum.

She wanted attention and she received attention. It's up to the adults to determine how they want to mete out attention--through love and restraint or antagonism and violence.

And for all of who claiming to interact with young children on a daily basis, if you disagree with what I wrote, all you have to do is try it once. It's not like that's going to ruin your child's upbringing. Just one time you might consider grabbing your reacting child and holding him/her very tight and explaining over and over that you love him/her. Don't worry, I love you. Yes, don't worry, your father is here. I love you. I love you.

See what happens when you do that. It may take longer than a swift kick or smack on the behind, but perhaps the delayed gratification of feeling good about discipline, about stopping the behavior will pay off in dividends in the long run as you see the behavior decrease over time.

Ok semantically it was negative STIMULUS not reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is one TYPE of negative stimulus. BOTH are educational tools. Also if it was withholding stimulus then you could counter that she was withheld from continuing her current behavior by the handcuffs.

As for wrapping herself around the child. In order to restrain an autistic girl in a day care that I once worked the parents had to sign a release form allowing the teachers to hold her. There have been cases of teachers being sued for simply holding a child and restraining them thus.

Judging from the mother's reaction to such restraining measures as were taken she likely would have sued the school for leaving the child unattended or allowing her to fall off of a table. If removing all attention from her is what will work then what is the mother making a big deal out of it and suing the school for? That's only gonna prolong the attention she receives from it all. Her mother is acting inappropriately for suing the school for this.

You make an excellent point Smooth. Not just kids, but adults too, tend to magnify their actions when a camera is around. I've lost count of how many stories I've had to back my lens off on because my presence was agitating the people more than they would be if I weren't there. I did a protest once, rolled up in my unmarked newscar, everyone's calm. The minute I pulled the camera out of the back, they went nuts, yelling, screaming, threatening each other with violence and death. I put the camera back in the truck and they calmed down instantly. Needless to say I didn't do the story - not only would it have been unethical to report on the yelling and screaming as though they were doing that when I rolled up, but I won't let the presence of my camera cause a riot.

Wouldn't be surprised if the kid was monkeying for the camera a bit here too.

Not to mention that the teacher was stupid. Now that the school has painted themselves into the corner I talked about earlier, this is a no win situation for them. No matter what happens, they're probably getting sued. Providing video evidence was moronic.

Also, is no one questioning why the teacher is filming small children?

"world gone mad" perhaps, but this would certainly be investigated by the police in the UK

as pointed out in the article.

"self-evaluation"

Why are you continuing to dwell on this as if the child didn't have an understanding of her actions? And to what level would the behavior have to escalate before it became unacceptable because as you put it, she's a five-year-old child.

At some point these "children" have to held accountable, the constant justification and exoneration is how the entire planet has ended up in a cesspool of unresponsible young adults becase when they were a five-year-old child someone told them that their behavior wasn't their fault because they were a five-year-old child.

Of course distinctions need to be made, but even a two-year-old should be helped to understand that there are consequences for their actions. I honestly think we'd be better off if we stopped blaming the police, or the camera, or the girls mother, and held this girl, a five-year-old child, accountable for her actions! She is capable of compreshension, of reasoning, of understanding, that's WHY she was in school to begin with, after the previous outburst she had been warned what would happen and the police officer simply followed through, and I admire him for having the courage to not cave simply because she's a five-year-old child.

I stand by what I said earlier, if this were my five-year-old (and yes, I do have a little girl that just turned 5 last month) I would hope that that this situation never occured, but if it did I would prefer that the officer be consistent in the punishment and put her into handcuffs and perhaps make a point with her that I'd been unable to get across.

I don't know where your wife teaches, but even when I was in school, and that's been more than 15 years now, teachers were not allowed to have direct physical contact with the students pretty much under any circumstances. Even for emergency situations like CPR or choking there was only one teacher authorized to administer the treatments because of the necessity for physical contact. It was policy at the school to limit liability because of the litigious nature of society, a rule designed under the "avoid the very appearance of evil" thought process and I wouldn't doubt that this school has a similar policy.

Personally I prefer this method of deterrence, however there are times that it's simply counter-productive. You said yourself that often this behavior is simply a method for getting attention, so how do you justify giving additional positive attention as a viable recourse in deterring the behavior? Unless my logic is seriously off here, if doing something gets you more of what you want, why wouldn't you not only continue to do it, but only amplify the behavior?

And shakran, your solution still doesn't provide a method quantifying which of these students should be shipped to the "last chance" schools where they are in more than effect simply babysat or flunked out. Are you suggesting that any kid that talks in class be automatically shipped out to these schools that have a very limited available enrollment and then just forget about it? All that does is shift the lawsuit another direction as these parents then claim that it's the schools fault for being negligent and simply pushing the children off on someone else. When are we going to stop passing the buck and start supporting the people that stand up for something, stand up for these teachers rights and give them and the other students that this girl wasted their time and energy an equal respect and stop treating this little girl as a victim and glorifying the behavior?

I was just pointing out that in the UK this women would be called a potential paedophile and face definite police investigation. I think such a designation is totally illogical without far more supporting evidence.. but thats the way it is here, every society has its blind spots I guess... I was just trying to point out if this had happened in the UK, the media perception would have been entirely different.

I'm sorry. I had thought it obvious that there's a marked difference in behavior between a kid who talks in class and a kid who tears up the room and tries to hit the teacher.

The kids that get sent to last chance are the kids that do not respond to the disciplinary methods in the regular school. If the kid talks in class, you tell him to stop. If that doesn't work, you punish him somehow. You continue to escallate the punishment until the point is reached that you can't escallate it any further. And then, yes, if the talking is that disruptive and he won't stop no matter what you do to him, he's shipped out.

Either give the school the power to discipline for real (grabbing kids who are fighting would be a good start, court supported community service rather than suspensions/detentions would be a great way to go) or understand that, since parents as a group have sued the schools out of that ability, the schools will have to ship problems elsewhere.