Fresh is not as fresh as frozen - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Cynthetiq · 04-25-2005, 11:47 AM

I didn't even begin to think about product placement on food shows. I did of course think of the obvious untensils, but not the food itself.

While Ming Tsai says, "Fresh is not as fresh as frozen, I think." He's telling a bit of truth, I have a friend who runs a trawler in Iceland and all fish and seafood that he harvests, all get frozen as quickly as they can separate it out of the nets.

Here's two items up for discussion.

Freshness of foods
How fresh do you like your food? Do you insist on making things from scratch? Do you use some prepared canned/bottled/mix/packet?

Hidden sponsors and marketing
Did you even know that besides the cool Viking Stove and Kyocera Ceramic Knives that they were "softselling" you food products?

Something to chew on.... literally.

Quote:

The Sponsored Chef
LINK
And our special for the day is... a deal with a veal group. More big chefs are getting paid to pitch everything from shrimp to raisins -- and not telling their customers. Kelly Crow on dining for dollars.
By KELLY CROW
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
April 22, 2005; Page W1

At the Blue Ginger restaurant in Wellesley, Mass., one typical East-West fusion offering is "Miso Risotto with Shrimp Mousse and Roulade of Seared Monkfish." With its fancy name and $28 price tag, diners might expect the seafood is all fresh off the boat.

But the shrimp that gourmet chef Ming Tsai uses in that entree and others is frozen. And that's no coincidence: Mr. Tsai cut a deal with a big supplier of frozen shrimp, which pays more than $550,000 a year to sponsor both of Mr. Tsai's TV cooking shows. The company also sells him frozen shrimp at "below cost." Under the deal, the underwriter asks that Mr. Tsai features shrimp on two or three episodes.

"For me, frozen is a tastier shrimp," says Mr. Tsai, who on occasion buys shrimp fresh from other vendors. "Fresh is not as fresh as frozen, I think."

MEAL DEALS

Famous cooks are increasingly accepting money and freebies from food-industry trade groups and manufacturers in return for promoting their products. Below, some chefs and menu items where the sponsor's food appears0.

And now, a meal from your chef's sponsors. Some of America's most respected culinary stars are signing contracts with trade groups from raisin farmers and avocado growers to canned-good promoters -- and getting cash, discounts and freebies in exchange for using their products. New York chef David Burke pockets $5,000 from a major beef lobby every time he cooks veal on the "Fox and Friends" morning show. In Salt Lake City, chef Ty Fredrickson's restaurant group gets $10,000 a year from an Alaska seafood trade group -- just for putting the word "Alaska" in front of the king crab and halibut dishes on the menu. Charlie Palmer, the high-profile restaurateur, says he is in early talks for a marketing deal with an American caviar maker, and has asked to get paid in fish eggs.

In an era when celebrity chefs sell themselves as artists with unique passions and new approaches in the kitchen, they're also serving diners some old-fashioned marketing techniques. Some could be featuring a food item because a trade group they're working with wants the chef's customers to shop for the item later, or recommend it to friends. On television programs, chefs often cook with appliances and products supplied by sponsors. While there's no outright deception here -- it's more an issue of omission -- some diners who hear about the arrangements say they leave a bit of a bad aftertaste.

Chef David Burke

Helen Stone, a food lover who runs a trade group for landscape architects in Las Vegas, says she "would feel better if there were some kind of disclosure," in cases where chefs are being paid to promote certain foods and products. Betsy Rosen, a regular at Blue Ginger for seven years, only recently learned that Mr. Tsai's kitchen is filled with ingredients and tools from his sponsors. She brought up the matter with Mr. Tsai's wife, but has concluded that Mr. Tsai is just being entrepreneurial. Still, she says, "I was just totally clueless that that kind of thing went on."

Frozen Shrimp, No Labels

Indeed, consumers rarely know about the deals. For instance, Mr. Tsai never uses fresh shrimp on his PBS cooking show, "Simply Ming," and all of his frozen shrimp comes from sponsor Contessa Premium Foods -- with the labels peeled off. He also doesn't mention the sponsorship deal while cooking. (The company's name appears in the credits at the end of the show.) Destin, Fla., chef Tim Creehan, whose upscale eatery emphasizes seafood, also puts up to four pork dishes at a time on the menu, including such cuts as pork belly and pork butt. Not included: the fact he's a paid representative for the National Pork Board. And then there's chef José Andrès, of Washington, D.C., who since signing up with the California Avocado Commission has increased the number of dishes with avocado in them on his menu to eight from two.

Chefs say they only make deals with manufacturers whose products they believe in or that they already use. "We would never put our name on a substandard product just because it's basically free," says Mr. Tsai. "I mean, my livelihood is sitting on the plate." Mr. Creehan says he's always been a pork fan, but "I became more educated on pork, so I'm more apt to use pork now than before." Mr. Andres says he cooked with avocado for years, even before hooking up with the California commission.

French haute-cuisine chef and author Jacques Pepin, the star of the TV cooking show, "Jacques Pepin: Fast Food My Way," agreed last year to add the Canned Food Alliance as one of the show's sponsors. (The Pittsburgh trade group represents the tin-plate industry.) Since then, Mr. Pepin has featured such dishes as a dip made with canned beans on "Fast Food" and appeared at promotional lunches to talk about how canned foods are healthy and easy to use. Says Mr. Pepin, "They asked, 'Do you have anything against cans?' and I said, 'Not at all.' I've tried them all, and I'm not a snob." He adds that he doesn't consider the arrangement an endorsement, since the Alliance's check doesn't come to him personally.

Jacques Pepin

Industry groups and manufacturers who line up chefs say the deals are good marketing -- and less expensive than paying for big advertising campaigns. For example, Contessa says the mere fact that Mr. Tsai uses frozen shrimp on the program helps show its product can be used in gourmet cuisine. "Part of our mission is educating consumers in being more confident to cook seafood at home," says a Contessa spokeswoman. (The company says Mr. Tsai is not contractually obligated to use the shrimp at Blue Ginger.) Similarly, the pork, veal and avocado organizations say that consumers pay more attention when they see big-name chefs serving or using their products.

The marketing can even be used to counter negative publicity. After some critical studies on farmed salmon appeared in January 2004, the fish's sales dropped 22%, according to Salmon of the Americas, a lobbying group. Alex Trent, the group's executive director, decided to enlist some chefs to influence public opinion and to use its products at industry events. One of the first big names he approached was Chicago's Rick Tramonto, the chef of Tru, who has submitted a few recipes to the salmon group's Web site. (While mulling the offer, Mr. Tramonto says he asked the salmon organization for 500 free farmed salmon filets to use at an industry dinner for other chefs.)

The group also signed up chef Graham Kerr, the former "Galloping Gourmet," to vouch for the fish during public appearances and television interviews. Now, according to Mr. Trent, sales are back to $3 billion annually in the U.S, the same as they were in 2003. He credits the efforts of Messrs. Tramonto and Kerr. "We need our chefs to re-educate consumers," says Mr. Trent. "They give us reach and credibility."

Contracts with chefs don't generally create the outright conflict of interest that arises, for example, when television "experts" take fees to mention a company's products during news interviews, without informing viewers of the business relationship. Such arrangements violate journalistic ethical guidelines, under which viewers expect their news to be unbiased. Instead, the arrangements are more like product placement on commercial TV shows or the marketing tactic that has become widely known in Hollywood -- where actors take free clothes from designers in return for buzz and exposure.

Emerging From Behind the Stove

The culinary contracts really got their start with the rise of the celebrity chef. As some big names emerged from behind the stove, industry groups figured they could tap into the glamour quotient, and use the chefs to help their products stand out. Just last year 5,311 specialty-food products were introduced, up 38% from 2003, according to the National Association for the Specialty Food Trade. At the same time, a new crop of business-savvy chefs are looking for new sources of income, especially as the $164 billion full-service restaurant industry struggles with growth in the 2% range.

Ming Tsai

"When something comes my way, when it's something I love and when it gets me a little extra money, I'll do it," says Mr. Andrès, who is currently considering marketing proposals from 20 food companies.

Some chefs have become such huge celebrities they actually get commercial endorsements, much like sports stars, singers or other celebs. Emeril Lagasse is now endorsing Crest toothpaste, Nobu Matsuhisa is pushing Calloway golf clubs, and Mario Batali is promoting plastic wrap. These sorts of deals are relatively new. Just two years ago, when Chicago chef Rick Bayless accepted $300,000 to appear in a Burger King commercial, he was widely criticized by his peers for working with a mass-market food company -- and he eventually donated the money to charity. "We're trying to forge a new area of business here," says Mr. Bayless. "You learn by trial and error what's the right thing to do."

Not all chefs embrace the food-industry sponsorships or endorsements. Julia Child, for example, never cut financial deals with trade groups to use their products or made commercial endorsements, says Geoff Drummond, who produced her PBS show, "Cooking with Master Chefs." Mr. Drummond says Ms. Child, who died in 2004, turned down everyone from fast food chains to butter makers. "She wanted to be tied to food," he says. Chef Roy Yamaguchi, the owner of the national Roy's Restaurants chain, says he won't cut deals with any food companies because it reflects on his creativity as a chef (though he recently accepted a free Sub Zero refrigerator, worth $6,000, from the manufacturer). For its part, PBS has guidelines that require chefs to either remove or obscure the labels of products provided by sponsors, says Suzanne Zellner, head of the television system's sponsorship group.

Sometimes, the mutual back-scratching has limits. Though Mr. Bayless accepts underwriting from V&V Supremo, a Mexican cheese-maker, for his PBS cooking show, "Mexico: One Plate at a Time With Rick Bayless," he doesn't use the company's products at his restaurant, Frontera Grill. When Supremo executives asked him why, he said he preferred artisan cheeses. Now, Supremo has a new artisan-cheese line, but Mr. Bayless still hasn't incorporated the new cheese into his menus. Supremo executives did not return repeated interview requests.

Whether or not chefs are up front about their marketing deals isn't an issue for all diners, of course. Tom Provost, a Los Angeles screenwriter says he doesn't need much truth in menu -- just good food. "I'm a capitalist, so it doesn't irritate me that chefs could be making a little extra money," he says. "If I don't want it, I just won't order it."

Personally I do a little of it all. Sometimes I make things from scratch, other times I use shortcuts. I tend to use shortcuts that one cannot tell the difference in taste and texture.

As far as marketing is concerned...well I pay close attention...

Squishor · 04-25-2005, 12:25 PM

I like to think I'm relatively free from these influences.

When I cook at home, I like to make things from scratch if I have the time. I don't always have the time to make chicken stock, which I use a lot of, and I have recently (in the past few years) started cheating by using tomato sauce from a jar or pre-made pesto, for example. Before that, I used almost no pre-prepared foods, although I've always bought bread and such because I suck at baking. The sauces and things I do buy are usually from small companies made here in town.

I don't watch tv so that eliminates cooking shows and advertising, for the most part. I might see something I like the look of in a magazine once in a while, but I'm not one to run out and buy a cutlery set, since virtually all my kitchen utensils are hand-me-downs or things I found at the thrift store.

I shop at smaller local markets and specialty shops. The produce I buy tends to be grown here in the area, since we are surrounded by farms here. As for fish, we catch a lot of that here in the Monterey Bay - I buy local fish when I have the choice. I'm pretty picky about freshness because my last boyfriend was a commercial fisherman, so if stuff got any older than a day or so, we just gave it to the cats.

Basically, I'm a marketing researcher's nightmare!

kutulu · 04-25-2005, 01:28 PM

Food freshness:

With seafood, I'll always prefer it to be frozen. I live in AZ, it's not as if we are getting it straight off the boat. At a minimum it's been two days since it came off the boat. Why let it sit if it can be frozen and vaccum sealed? Shrimp, scallops, and crab can all be caught and flash frozen in liquid N2. I've had shrimp right off the boat in Mexico and there is no difference. Furthermore, I shop for groceries between weekly and bi-weekly. If I it's not already frozen then I have to freeze it. Flash freezing will preserve quality much better than my freezer. Frozen items are also cheaper usually because people often have a stigma associated with it.

I used to buy frozen chicken but I recently stopped because it's hard to find frozen chicken (or any chicken, for that matter) that isn't injected is a 15% chicken broth solution (to supposedly 'enhance' the flavor). Now I buy it and put chicken breasts in ziplock bags and freeze them. I've never seen frozen steaks but if I could find a frozen ribeye I'd buy it. I do the same with steaks. I keep out what I will use in the next couple days (if any) and individually wrap and freeze the rest.

I just don't have the time to buy meats every day and shopping every day means you can't take advantage of the half price meat sales. When good steaks go on sale for $4.99/lb (usually around $10/lb) I buy a bunch. Someday, when I have a house, I plan on buying a separate freezer to store my meats in.

The only canned or frozen veggies I use are artichoke hearts and chipotles en adobo. It's too expensive (and a pain in the ass) to buy artichokes and remove the hearts. Same with the chipotles in adobo. Canned veggies taste like shit and they don't save much time (or money). They are always soggy tasting. I haven't had much experience with frozen veggies but I'd assume they aren't much better.

I also buy canned pasta sauces for price and convenience, however I only buy them from Trader Joe's or Sprouts. Those sauces are completely organic, contain no preservatives, and neither use any aritificial flavors or colors. Sauces like Ragu, Prego, etc are loaded with crap.

As far as the marketting goes, I hadn't thought that the ingredients might have been pushed by lobby groups. It doesn't surprise me a bit though. Why shouldn't they?

Gilda · 04-25-2005, 02:46 PM

With my fruits and vegetables, it has to be fresh, and the red meat needs to be of the never frozen type. Seafood I prefer fresh, but frozen is ok; it seems to not bruise the taste as much as with red meat. I also make my bread at home; our breadmaker gets quite a workout.

For sauces and such, I have no problem with starting with canned tomato paste, or buying a jar of glaze, and I'll use the store bought pastas rather than make it from scratch any day.

But most stuff is from scratch; it really doesn't take much longer and IMO tastes a whole lot better.

jorgelito · 04-25-2005, 02:53 PM

To add to Gilda; You control what's going into your food (salt, sugar fat, butter, oil etc) so it's a lot healthier too. After a while, it's hard to eat any processed food as the difference becomes quite clear.

greytone · 04-25-2005, 05:14 PM

I have heard from several sources that canned tomatos are actually better than fresh most of the time. They are picked and put right into the cans in a very short period of time. Also, they are a different variety than can be picked up at Krogers. The fresh tomatos I have picked up in recent years are not good for sauce making. Most have not been good for eating either.

Gilda · 04-25-2005, 05:17 PM

I fortunately live in an agricultural valley, where I can usually get produce fresh from a real market or roadside stand. It's absolutely wonderfully fresh stuff.

analog · 04-25-2005, 06:50 PM

virtually every industry has a hand in another industry's pocket. it's nothing new, and i see nothing wrong with it unless false information about food health are presented to keep the buck rolling.

rat · 04-25-2005, 09:32 PM

Having worked in one of the upper-scale seafood restaurants in the fourth largest city in the U.S., I have to say that nothing beats live. Barring that, nothing beats day-fresh seafood. If it's not live or straight off the boat, it doesn't taste anywhere as good. Out of practicality, the only seafood we had that was frozen was our shrimp (because taking the heads out and de-veining several thousand pounds every two days isn't practical--far too labor intensive). Our crawfish were fresh (if not live) though processed for the tailmeat. All our fish was fresh--either straight in off the boat, or shipped refrigerated, but never frozen.

This really didn't seem that big of thing to me while I lived in Houston--every restaurant had solid access to fresh fish and crabs. Now that I'm 150 miles from the coast, I don't bother going into seafood restaurants. I made the mistake once, and never again. Portions are smaller, taste far more bland, and cost more. Waste of money, and more importantly, a dining experience. It's a lesson that I've taken to heart and won't forget. It's not beef, it's not chicken--I don't find a noticeable difference in taste from those things.

Seeker · 04-26-2005, 04:08 AM

I don't watch a lot of television, during the day the television doesn't exist. I don't buy papers or magazines. If I come across marketing, it is usually in the form of radio. I may catch some form of advertising regarding food or food products, or information on 'what's popular to eat', 'what's on the avoid list' at any given time, and facts regarding nutrition. The ads I see on television are usually in regard to childrens snacks, or spreads. I can honestly say that I look at every one of them and know darn well that none of them are as good for kids as they might have me believe.

I think I also get more outraged in the 'product placement' mentality of supermarkets. How they consistantly discontinue a line I may buy regularly but doesn't sell fast enough because it's all about turn-over. Another reason may be that the company may not want to pay the supermarket for the 'shelf space' so someone else who is happy to pay win twice, they don't have product competition and gain a monopoly in the market, and we pay for that privilege through the increased prices they charge to recoupe the extra cost! This happens in the larger chain supermarkets in my area, and unfortunately the smaller supermarkets are squashed by the big guys so you are forced to shop there, there are no viable alternatives. (Supermarket mungars annoy me greatly, can you tell!)

I generally buy a mix of fresh and prepared foods. I don't like to spend a lot of time with food, food is fuel. With the packet, canned or frozen foods I buy, I flip the product and check the label for ingrediants contained and make my choice from that.

absorbentishe · 04-26-2005, 04:41 AM

I use a combo myself. What ever is the easiest and still maintains the taste. There are certain instances where fresh(not frozen) is best, but not all.

As for restaurants, if their menu says "fresh" fish, one would expect it to be caught within the last 2 - 3 days and cooked then. If they are not usuing "fresh", and using frozen, there needs to be an asteric on the menu. I personally don't eat much fish at restaurants.

04-25-2005, 02:46 PM	#4 (permalink)
Gilda 32 flavors and then some Location: Out on a wire.	With my fruits and vegetables, it has to be fresh, and the red meat needs to be of the never frozen type. Seafood I prefer fresh, but frozen is ok; it seems to not bruise the taste as much as with red meat. I also make my bread at home; our breadmaker gets quite a workout. For sauces and such, I have no problem with starting with canned tomato paste, or buying a jar of glaze, and I'll use the store bought pastas rather than make it from scratch any day. But most stuff is from scratch; it really doesn't take much longer and IMO tastes a whole lot better. __________________ I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert

04-25-2005, 05:14 PM	#6 (permalink)
greytone Junkie	I have heard from several sources that canned tomatos are actually better than fresh most of the time. They are picked and put right into the cans in a very short period of time. Also, they are a different variety than can be picked up at Krogers. The fresh tomatos I have picked up in recent years are not good for sauce making. Most have not been good for eating either. __________________ I was there to see beautiful naked women. So was everybody else. It's a common failing. Robert A Heinlein in "They Do It With Mirrors"

04-26-2005, 04:08 AM	#10 (permalink)
Seeker Getting Clearer Location: with spirit	I don't watch a lot of television, during the day the television doesn't exist. I don't buy papers or magazines. If I come across marketing, it is usually in the form of radio. I may catch some form of advertising regarding food or food products, or information on 'what's popular to eat', 'what's on the avoid list' at any given time, and facts regarding nutrition. The ads I see on television are usually in regard to childrens snacks, or spreads. I can honestly say that I look at every one of them and know darn well that none of them are as good for kids as they might have me believe. I think I also get more outraged in the 'product placement' mentality of supermarkets. How they consistantly discontinue a line I may buy regularly but doesn't sell fast enough because it's all about turn-over. Another reason may be that the company may not want to pay the supermarket for the 'shelf space' so someone else who is happy to pay win twice, they don't have product competition and gain a monopoly in the market, and we pay for that privilege through the increased prices they charge to recoupe the extra cost! This happens in the larger chain supermarkets in my area, and unfortunately the smaller supermarkets are squashed by the big guys so you are forced to shop there, there are no viable alternatives. (Supermarket mungars annoy me greatly, can you tell!) I generally buy a mix of fresh and prepared foods. I don't like to spend a lot of time with food, food is fuel. With the packet, canned or frozen foods I buy, I flip the product and check the label for ingrediants contained and make my choice from that. __________________ *To those who wander but who are not lost...* ~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to. Last edited by Seeker; 04-26-2005 at 04:09 AM.. Reason: it's all about the grammer!

04-25-2005, 12:25 PM	#2 (permalink)
Squishor Frontal Lobe Location: California	I like to think I'm relatively free from these influences. When I cook at home, I like to make things from scratch if I have the time. I don't always have the time to make chicken stock, which I use a lot of, and I have recently (in the past few years) started cheating by using tomato sauce from a jar or pre-made pesto, for example. Before that, I used almost no pre-prepared foods, although I've always bought bread and such because I suck at baking. The sauces and things I do buy are usually from small companies made here in town. I don't watch tv so that eliminates cooking shows and advertising, for the most part. I might see something I like the look of in a magazine once in a while, but I'm not one to run out and buy a cutlery set, since virtually all my kitchen utensils are hand-me-downs or things I found at the thrift store. I shop at smaller local markets and specialty shops. The produce I buy tends to be grown here in the area, since we are surrounded by farms here. As for fish, we catch a lot of that here in the Monterey Bay - I buy local fish when I have the choice. I'm pretty picky about freshness because my last boyfriend was a commercial fisherman, so if stuff got any older than a day or so, we just gave it to the cats. Basically, I'm a marketing researcher's nightmare!

04-25-2005, 01:28 PM	#3 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	Food freshness: With seafood, I'll always prefer it to be frozen. I live in AZ, it's not as if we are getting it straight off the boat. At a minimum it's been two days since it came off the boat. Why let it sit if it can be frozen and vaccum sealed? Shrimp, scallops, and crab can all be caught and flash frozen in liquid N2. I've had shrimp right off the boat in Mexico and there is no difference. Furthermore, I shop for groceries between weekly and bi-weekly. If I it's not already frozen then I have to freeze it. Flash freezing will preserve quality much better than my freezer. Frozen items are also cheaper usually because people often have a stigma associated with it. I used to buy frozen chicken but I recently stopped because it's hard to find frozen chicken (or any chicken, for that matter) that isn't injected is a 15% chicken broth solution (to supposedly 'enhance' the flavor). Now I buy it and put chicken breasts in ziplock bags and freeze them. I've never seen frozen steaks but if I could find a frozen ribeye I'd buy it. I do the same with steaks. I keep out what I will use in the next couple days (if any) and individually wrap and freeze the rest. I just don't have the time to buy meats every day and shopping every day means you can't take advantage of the half price meat sales. When good steaks go on sale for $4.99/lb (usually around $10/lb) I buy a bunch. Someday, when I have a house, I plan on buying a separate freezer to store my meats in. The only canned or frozen veggies I use are artichoke hearts and chipotles en adobo. It's too expensive (and a pain in the ass) to buy artichokes and remove the hearts. Same with the chipotles in adobo. Canned veggies taste like shit and they don't save much time (or money). They are always soggy tasting. I haven't had much experience with frozen veggies but I'd assume they aren't much better. I also buy canned pasta sauces for price and convenience, however I only buy them from Trader Joe's or Sprouts. Those sauces are completely organic, contain no preservatives, and neither use any aritificial flavors or colors. Sauces like Ragu, Prego, etc are loaded with crap. As far as the marketting goes, I hadn't thought that the ingredients might have been pushed by lobby groups. It doesn't surprise me a bit though. Why shouldn't they?

04-25-2005, 02:53 PM	#5 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	To add to Gilda; You control what's going into your food (salt, sugar fat, butter, oil etc) so it's a lot healthier too. After a while, it's hard to eat any processed food as the difference becomes quite clear.

04-25-2005, 05:17 PM	#7 (permalink)
Gilda 32 flavors and then some Location: Out on a wire.	I fortunately live in an agricultural valley, where I can usually get produce fresh from a real market or roadside stand. It's absolutely wonderfully fresh stuff.

04-25-2005, 06:50 PM	#8 (permalink)
analog Banned	virtually every industry has a hand in another industry's pocket. it's nothing new, and i see nothing wrong with it unless false information about food health are presented to keep the buck rolling.

04-26-2005, 04:41 AM	#11 (permalink)
absorbentishe Boy am I horny today Location: T O L E D O, Toledo!!	I use a combo myself. What ever is the easiest and still maintains the taste. There are certain instances where fresh(not frozen) is best, but not all. As for restaurants, if their menu says "fresh" fish, one would expect it to be caught within the last 2 - 3 days and cooked then. If they are not usuing "fresh", and using frozen, there needs to be an asteric on the menu. I personally don't eat much fish at restaurants.