clavus

The only thing I can figure is that the Vatican felt threatened by Michael Jackson moving in on their territory. This move will help them reassert their leadership in the highly competitive field of childhood anal rape.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...e_cardinal_law

I just hate shit like this.

Can you imagine your boss saying, "Under your supervision, your division was responsible for the systematic rape of hundreds of children. We'd like to honor you." ?????????

And my friends wonder why I don't go to church...

I gotta go puke now.

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VATICAN CITY - Cardinal Bernard Law, who resigned in disgrace as archbishop of Boston over his role in the clergy sex abuse crisis, has been given a role of honor in the mourning for Pope John Paul II.

The Vatican announced Thursday he will lead one of the daily Masses celebrated in the pope's memory during the nine-day period that follows the funeral, called Novemdiales. The service will be held Monday at Rome's St. Mary Major Basilica, where Law was appointed archpriest after leaving Boston.

Some Roman Catholics in his former archdiocese immediately protested.

Suzanne Morse, spokeswoman for Voice of the Faithful, a Massachusetts-based reform group that emerged from the scandal, said Law's visibility since the pope's death has been "extremely painful" both for abuse survivors and rank-and-file Catholics.

"It certainly shows and puts a spotlight on the lack of accountability in the Catholic Church, that the most visible bishop in the clergy sexual abuse crisis has been given these honorary opportunities," she said.

David Clohessy, national director for the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, called it "terribly insensitive."

"It rubs salt into the already deep wounds of victims and it allows the best-documented complicit bishop to exploit the pope's death for his own selfish purposes," Clohessy said.

Law did not respond to a phone message left at the basilica.

Law stepped down as archbishop within months after a judge unsealed court records in January 2002 that showed he had allowed priests with confirmed histories of molesting children to continue working in parishes.

Among the records were letters Law had written to some of the predators expressing support and thanks for their service to the church.

...blah blah blah...

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Coppertop

Goes to show how strange the church is. I guess they might say he was just doing his job in covering for his priests. I stopped taking the happenings in/of the church seriously long ago... if I ever did, which isn't very likely.

Seeker

On a more personal note for the fellow, do we actually know if he was aware of what his people were doing. And if so, did he actually condone it? Also would he not be aware that the actions of his 'division' would bring about the thinking you've stated above? His job would be to try and keep the honour of the church system in place, I wouldn't know what to say or do if put in a position like that

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To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

cookkee

i think they should make him the next pope

eribrav

I heard this on the radio while driving home. I find it utterly incomprehesible, and totally reprehensible.

sixate

So typical it's not even funny...... Keep pouring your well earned money into every bullshit church people... As for as I'm concerned everyone who pays the church is just as much to blame as these sick pedophiles running them.

TexanAvenger

I believe in people getting a second chance... but that chance doesn't even start at the ground floor. It starts in the basement below the basement and you have to climb every last stair to get to the top.

You don't start the guy back up at the top and give him a key to the elevator.

StormBerlin

I can't say I'm really shocked. God will punish him when he dies, so it really doesn't matter that he's about to do this for the chuch, he's already screwed.

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"if anal sex could get a girl pregnant i'd be tits deep in child support" Arcane

analog

Before everyone gets their holier-than-thou, i've-never-done-anything-wrong-in-my-entire-life panties in a knot, please consider that laws and ethics of businesses and such are different from the Catholic Church.

In the Catholic Church, if you pray and ask for forgiveness for your sins, you can be forgiven as long as the request for forgiveness is sincere. WHETHER OR NOT YOU GO TO JAIL, OR CAN CONTINUE TO BE A PRIEST IS UP TO THE LAW OF THE NATION, NOT THE CHURCH.

So you see, if you paid attention, there is nothing in Church Law that requires a Bishop, Cardinal, etc., to remove a priest for such behavior.

I don't really believe that people have a right to be yelling at him and saying he's undeserving of the honors he's receiving currently. Despite the fact that the group of "survivors" and their advocacy group is all up in arms over this, you have to keep in mind that they're biased, pissed off, and have their own agenda.

You're absolutely right- and this goes for several people. Let's forgo the massive amount of money the Catholic Church gives to starving people, homeless people, and sick people to try and give them a better quality of life, or any life at all, so you can sleep better at night knowing that your anti-religion rhetoric- which is SO "broken record" it's not even funny- on an internet web board finally made a difference.

sixate

Thanks analog. After a really long shitty day at work this just turned things around for me and gave me a long needed laugh. Trying to justify churches covering up pedophiles by giving examples of good which seem to offset child molesters nearly made me piss my pants. Thank you again. Now I'm off for some much needed sleep..........

analog

I forgive you. I'll pray for you.

reiii

the latter thing you said make sense. A few bad apples doesn't necessarily ruin the bunch when you have such a large and charitable organization.

Your former point totally bewilders me. It seems to imply that you would know if you were forgiven or not. How do you know God doesn't listen to your sincere apology and think "nah, your gonna burn". This line of thought reminds me of the bull shit conversions of death row inmates who "find Jesus." So I guess the Catholic church has it's own method for determing weather the "can" be forgiven sin, is in fact forgiven. Thats why they have the church right? God's advocates. Great, that's all neat if you buy the system, if you believe the pope and his organization is able to channel god's will. But I don't buy it. I don't think the Catholic church explains the universe. All I see, is that a man who was rightfully disgraced for association with one of the world's most heinous crimes is being honored.

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Nisses

Euhm, because that's one of the basic fundaments of this religion? Exactly like Analog said:

If your request for forgiveness is sincere and you regret your actions, you will be forgiven.

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Moderation should be moderately moderated.

pocon1

I think it may be hard to prove you are sincere in your actions when you spend years covering up horrible crimes. This was not a one-time coverup, but a systematic process of shifting around pedophiles and continuing to put wolves in the flock.

meembo

In the same article, the following about Law:

Washington Cardinal Theodore McCarrick said he did not know why Law was chosen, but said it was likely because the basilica is one of the great churches of Rome. "It would be a natural selection," McCarrick said. "The choice was certainly not made for any reason except to honor St. Mary Major."

It's very important to keep everything in context and in perspective. Law wasn't honored, the head of that particular church was honored. It makes a great difference. I wouldn't buy a used car from George Bush, but I respect him as President and as an elected leader.

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less I say, smarter I am

thalakos315

isn't it written somewhere that whatever is binding in the church, is binding in heaven as well? so if the church forgives you.. heaven has to forgive you as well.. like on dogma where they forgive everybody who walks through the arches, so heaven automatically has to abide by that law as well.

if that is actually true (i haven't read up on any of this in ages) then spiritually speaking, this guy hasn't done anything thing wrong.
i still think the guy needs to be turned over to the parents in a secluded, unmonitored, dimly lit room, but thats just me.

it makes sense that the church wouldn't see anything wrong with appointing this guy. what doesn't make sense is that, apparently, they didn't give a damn about the political consiquences of this.

BigBen

No, the Dogmatic law that you are quoting from a 5th party source is a throwback to the fundamental beginnings of the Roman Catholic chruch, where it was written that whatever the POPE said was true, even in heaven.

This was back in the day when people were dying of the plague...

Yes, even the most traditional systems have progressed somewhat. The Pope is not about to trump God. Also, he is pretty careful of his words.
If the church forgives you, thats good. The Big Guy knows what is really going on in your head, and will have the final say.

BTW, I find it amusing (seriously) that the movie Dogma was quoted in this thread. I love this forum.

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3.141592654
Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

reiii

he said can be forgiven, that be the catch

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"Jombe? The chocolate icing" -hedonism bot

analog

Also from the movie, which is all too appropriate:

"...mention something from a Charleton Heston Movie, and suddenly everyone's a theology scholar..."

OFKU0

I think I have to change my sources of acquiring news. I thought Bernard Law was going to jail. He had a trial and was found guilty, was he not?

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" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

pocon1

Well, to quote (paraphrasically) "O Brother Where Art Thou"

"Your soul may belong to heaven but your ass belongs to the state of Alabama"

hossified

regardless of 'church law' or civil law, the guy let known molestors hold their positions of authority.....that is complete bs. Whether or not their 'sins' are forgiven by god, that is just wrong...... And if you are trying to justify this, or if you think there is nothing wrong with this, than you are just as messed in the head. You can't use religion as an excuse for evil behaviour, or use it to feel better about the mistakes you have made.....

...a parting thought....the Pope gave his life to God, yet dies of heart problems etc...?? You'd think if anyone were to live a perfectly healthy life it would be the pope....where was 'god' on this one??

clavus

Two things:

1.) There are countless nuns and priests out there feeding the starving, tending to the ill and risking their very lives for "the least among us." Yet the Vatican chose to honor a man who presided over mass-child rape because of his political position with in the church?! And who put him in that position after he resigned in disgrace? The Vatican. This sickens me.

2.) Am I the only one that noticed the church used the term "natural selection"? Heh heh heh....

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Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.

meembo

clavus, you're right. I was trying to make a point, but I forgot to soften the edges and include my own feelings about Law.

I think he should be in jail. I think he certainly ought not to be in any position of honor or priviledge in any social instituition. He sheilded child abusers, and lied about it to cover his tracks and cover for the Catholic church.

But Why Isn't Bernard Law in Jail?

That aside, I wanted people to see that although it stings that Law is in a place of prominence in the church, his role in the pope's funeral masses is not intended to honor him, only the church at which he resides.

I felt the same way about Richard Nixon when he was buried and his crimes were whitewashed. The respect shown there was intended more to honor the position, not the man in the position.

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less I say, smarter I am

Stompy

Remember, God forgives all, especially if you believe.

It's just considered a "sin".

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I love lamp.

d3cemberist

Not surprsing. Pretty messed up though in my book.

meembo

link

Cardinal Bernard Law, accused of covering up priestly sex abuse when he was the Boston archbishop, is to celebrate Mass Monday at St. Peter's Basilica -- a gesture of honor by the Vatican that has erupted into controversy and been denounced as "insensitive" and "embarrassing."

Law's role in the Mass at St. Peter's -- one of nine daily Masses to honor the late Pope John Paul II -- has angered American Catholics and a prominent group representing survivors of clergy molestation. Each Mass is to be delivered by a high-ranking church member.

Members of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP) plan to protest the presence of Law, who was appointed archpriest of the basilica by the pope after the scandal erupted.

SNAP said it is "deeply concerned about Law's hurtful actions" and issued a statement on its Web site criticizing Law -- the "disgraced ex-head of the Boston Archdiocese" -- and his celebrating the Mass.

SNAP members, who will be joined by others during the week, plan to hand out pamphlets outside the basilica and hope to meet with U.S. cardinals who will help choose a new pope.

"At best, this is insensitive, at a time when millions of Catholics are trying to focus on the Pope's life and death. At worst, it rubs salt into already very deep wounds of caring Catholics and suffering victims," the group said in a written statement.

"Catholics across the globe deserve the opportunity to reflect on the life of and mourn the passing of John Paul II without the embarrassing, painful site of Cardinal Law, the 'poster child' of complicit bishops.

"Clergy sex abuse victims and their loved ones (especially the hundreds in the Boston Archdiocese) deserve to heal from their deep wounds without seeing Cardinal Bernard Law in a high profile position of honor and prominence in Rome."

Court documents showed Law knowingly moved priests accused of abuse from parish to parish, without disclosing allegations against them. He resigned amid intense public outrage in 2002, but many cardinals believe that he has paid the price for what happened in the United States.

Similar scandals involving priests and other clergy swept dioceses across the nation, forcing the Roman Catholic Church to pay hundreds of millions of dollars in settlements with victims.

"We have formally asked the American Cardinals to intervene with Vatican officials to stop Law's involvement. We encourage Cardinals to find the courage to break the code of silence in their church hierarchy, speak out on behalf of children raped in the church, and insist that Law be replaced," the SNAP statement said.

SNAP Midwest director Peter Isely, in an interview with CNN, said the message to clergy sex offenders is that "there really is very little consequence" for what they have done or are planning to do.

SNAP President Barbara Blaine said the sex abuse issue "has to be confronted, and it hasn't been from our perspective. It's been swept under the rug." She said "far too many perpetrators remain in ministry" and "the church needs the voice of the victims to sanctify itself."

In a recent ABC interview about the pope, Law refused to discuss the abuse crisis.

After the scandal came to light in 2002, John Paul II told American church leaders there was no place in the priesthood "for those who would harm the young," saying sex abuse by priests was both a sin and a crime.

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less I say, smarter I am

MSD

The Catholic church acknowledges evolution. It's some of the other Christian religions that don't.

Lebell

My only comment is this:

We would all be in sorry shape if God held a grudge like some of you apparently wish.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Coppertop

Care to explain original sin?

sixate

Are you saying you wouldn't hold a grudge if some sick fuck fucked your son if you have one? Even if you don't have a son, what would your thoughts be? Would you be fine with the Catholic church covering up and promoting pedophiles?