Pope John Paul II is dead - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Strange Famous · 04-02-2005, 12:34 PM

officially so, it seems:

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope John Paul II, the Pole who headed the Roman Catholic Church for 26 years and played a key role in the fall of communism in Europe, has died, the Vatican has announced. He was 84.

The news was immediately announced to around 60,000 people gathered in St Peter's Square on Saturday evening and was met with a long applause, an Italian sign of respect. Bells tolled and many people wept openly.

Click to enlarge photo

"Our Holy Father John Paul has returned to the house of the Father," Archbishop Leonardo Sandri told the crowds.

A Vatican statement said the Pontiff died at 9.37 p.m (8.37 p.m. British time) in his private apartment.

Apart from his battle against communism, John Paul will be also be remembered for his unyielding defence of traditional Vatican doctrines as leader of the world's 1.1 billion Catholics.

After the Pope's health became critical on Thursday, crowds had staged a vigil in St. Peter's Square, praying for a man already being dubbed by some Catholics as "John Paul the Great".

The Pontiff's health had deteriorated steadily over the past decade and earlier this year took a sharp turn for the worse.

Once a lithe athlete and powerful speaker, he was already racked by arthritis and Parkinson's Disease, his voice often reduced to a raspy whisper.

He was rushed to hospital twice in February and had to have a tracheotomy to ease serious breathing problems. But he never regained his strength from the operation and failed dramatically on two occasions to address crowds at St. Peter's Square.

On Wednesday doctors inserted a feeding tube into his stomach to try boost his energy levels.

A day later he developed a urinary infection and high fever that soon precipitated heart failure, kidney problems and intermittent unconsciousness.

GATHERED IN PRAYER

As the Pope lay on his deathbed, worshippers around the globe held special prayers for the man who helped bring down the Iron Curtain but drew criticism from liberal Catholics who opposed his proclamations against contraception, abortion, married priests and women clergy.

Bracing for his passing, faithful from Burundi to the Philippines gathered in prayer for the charismatic man who enjoyed the third-longest papal reign and visited more countries than any other pope.

According to pre-written Church rules, the Pontiff's mourning rites will last 9 days and his body is likely to be laid to rest in the crypt underneath St Peter's Basilica.

The conclave to elect a new Pope will start in 15 to 20 days, with almost 120 cardinals from around the world gathering in the Vatican's Sistine Chapel to choose a successor.

There is no favourite candidate to take over. The former Archbishop Karol Wojtyla of Krakow was himself regarded as an outsider when he was elevated to the papacy on October 16, 1978.

Few would have predicted then that the first non-Italian pope in 455 years would throw off the stiff trappings of the papacy, travel the globe and leave an indelible mark on history.

In over a quarter century on the world stage, he was both a champion of the downtrodden and an often contested defender of orthodoxy within his own church.

Historians say one of the Pope's most lasting legacies will be his role in the fall of communism in Eastern Europe in 1989.

"Behold the night is over, day has dawned anew," the Pope said during a triumphant visit to Czechoslovakia in 1990.

A decade after witnessing the fall of communism, he fulfilled another of his dreams. He visited the Holy Land in March 2000, and, praying at Jerusalem's Western Wall, asked forgiveness for Catholic sins against Jews over the centuries.

But while many loved the man, his message was less popular and he was a source of deep division in his own church.

Critics constantly attacked his traditionalist stance on family issues, such as his condemnation of contraception and homosexuality, and hope the next Pope will be more liberal.

However, he has appointed more than 95 percent of the cardinals who will elect his successor, thus stacking the odds that his controversial teachings will not be tampered with.

ARTelevision · 04-02-2005, 12:37 PM

There will be far too much attention payed to this relatively minor event. Prepare for a seemingly endless and funereal multimedia experience. After that there will be blanket coverage of the selection of a new guy.

Strange Famous · 04-02-2005, 12:43 PM

I suppose whether or not it is minor depends on your view. I am not a catholic, but to people who are it is a very important and emotional issue. And even if you do not follow this religion, he was the moral leader of 1 billion people, as his replacement will be.

ARTelevision · 04-02-2005, 12:46 PM

You are quite correct. Sadly so, IMO.

present_future · 04-02-2005, 12:53 PM

I only hope that the new pope is as open as John Paull II was concerning the Catholic Church and the issues it faces in today's modern society.

Fohur2 · 04-02-2005, 01:05 PM

Italian news agency Agenzia Giornalistica Italia reports the pope's final message was

"I am happy--let you be happy, also. Let's pray together with joy; I entrust everything to the Virgin Mary with joy".

Liquor Dealer · 04-02-2005, 01:11 PM

At a time like this it doesn't matter what religion one is, or isn't. This man changed history. He made things better for million and millions of people. For what he has accomplished he is due the respect of the rest of the world. I'm not Catholic - at this point it doesn't matter - he gave far more than he took from this earth.

Fohur2 · 04-02-2005, 01:13 PM

Couldn't of said it better myself.

Arroe · 04-02-2005, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARTelevision

There will be far too much attention payed to this relatively minor event. Prepare for a seemingly endless and funereal multimedia experience. After that there will be blanket coverage of the selection of a new guy.

If this is a "minor event", I would like to hear what you call a major event.

Pope John Paul II was probably the most influencial leaders in the past quarter century. His message was of peace and compassion. I am a Catholic and I have been praying for the Pope these past few days as he has been suffering before his death. Today and for the next few days, I along with one sixth of the world who follow under the Pope in the Catholic Church, will be mourning his passing. Many more who are not Catholic will be doing the same, because as a man, Pope John Paul II was about as good of a person as you could get. I am sure he is already in Heaven with all the other Saints and God.

The world has lost a great man today.

tecoyah · 04-02-2005, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARTelevision

There will be far too much attention payed to this relatively minor event. Prepare for a seemingly endless and funereal multimedia experience. After that there will be blanket coverage of the selection of a new guy.

I thought they already picked him.....I had heard George Carlin already sold his house and was ready to move in.

Schwan · 04-02-2005, 02:40 PM

I'm not catholic, or religous for that matter, but what I have experienced during the last three ours or so is truly amazing. As some of you know, I live in Warsaw, Poland. This pope always had a a special relationship with the people of his native land. I might have disagreed with him on most issues, but the expressions of emotions I just saw are truly heart breaking and amazing. It's late night here in Warsaw. I was outside, when I heard air raid sirens turn on throughout the city. After that there was an endless sound of church bells ringing from everywhere. I went to a local church. From the hill nearby I could see people swarming in from the surrounding areas. I went inside to pay my respect, and stayed in for the mass. There was about a thousand people inside and it was hard to find anyone who wasn't crying. Young & old alike - and I know that this sounds like fiction - stood side by side and weapt. It was truly amazing. The news reports say that downtown Warsaw is closed off - thousands of people came to pray in the churches in the city's Old Town in the center. I went for a ride - evenm though it's saturday night, and the city's usually empty at this time of night, there's normal traffic on the streets. People are walking everywhere with lit candles. It amazing.

As I said - I disagreed with many things John Paul II said and done, but I respect the fact that he played a huge, huge role in the life's of many people. It's truly heartbreaking to see the whole nation grieve. From an atheists point of view I always thought of religion as opium for the masses, if you will. I think today changed my outlook slightly. Sure, religion can lead to bad things sometimes, but it can also lead to some wonderful things too - a sense of unity and love for your fellow man. Something that I found hard to understand until now, I guess.

brknkybrd · 04-02-2005, 02:52 PM

He is, officially now I see. *Sigh* Somehow I doubt this guy would have wanted the media circus that is going on now. I don't agree with all of Catholocism, but this was a pretty good guy.

It pains me to see all the news sites scrambling to get their pre-prepared banners up for their articles, with the most humble picture of the Pope with "Pope John Paul II 1920 ~ 2005" carefully photoshopped overtop. Knowing that they probably had one ready to go for each of the last 3 years makes it all the more sad.

Well, glad he got a rest, and he gets to meet the big man upstairs in person, I suppose. Rest in peace.

anleja · 04-02-2005, 03:07 PM

does anyone else think it odd that we were just witness to two (including Shiavo) widely reported accounts of the details of someone's impending death? it feels odd that i am not waiting for someone to die now, as i have been for the past two weeks. (not "waiting" as in "come on, die already!" ...just to clarify.)

i was watching cnn last night, and had the thought: i wonder if the guy behind the desk was hoping the pope would die on his shift, so he would be the one who got to announce it.

Painted · 04-02-2005, 03:28 PM

Although I also respect his accomplishments as a person, I loathe him because he is the leader of a group of people who tortured and killed thousands of gays, "witches", and heresists (people of other religions). And he/they never said "sorry".

RogueHunter65 · 04-02-2005, 03:47 PM

I was very sad to hear of the Pope's death. I think that having a new Pope will be good for the church and I am interested to hear who will be his sucessor. I think that the Pope's position is very important and It will be interesting to see how the new Pope's policies will change (or not change) the catholic church.

K-Wise · 04-02-2005, 04:22 PM

It's a sad day.

Asta!!

Val_1 · 04-02-2005, 04:28 PM

Not sure how I feel about the Pope passing, since I'm not religious. But, he was a proud and honorable man that lead a large number of people in (mostly) good ways. I hope his succesor continues the good work instead of moving backwards in his reforms.

Grasshopper Green · 04-02-2005, 04:47 PM

I too am not a Catholic, but my heart feels a little heavy, and a little lighter, in hearing of his passing. I truly think that he was a good person and tried to be a good leader to his church, and that makes me respect him. I am glad he is no longer suffering, and I hope that his followers can be glad for that as well. Rest in peace, John Paul.

maleficent · 04-02-2005, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tecoyah

I thought they already picked him.....I had heard George Carlin already sold his house and was ready to move in.

a little respect please...;

Dwayne · 04-02-2005, 05:00 PM

I was wondering how much longer he would last. I hope we have a pope that will see the world is changing and run the church accordingly.

Seeker · 04-02-2005, 05:34 PM

I'm not sure how I feel about the whole thing... just one example for instance:

Strange Famous:
As the Pope lay on his deathbed, worshippers around the globe held special prayers for the man who helped bring down the Iron Curtain but drew criticism from liberal Catholics who opposed his proclamations against contraception, abortion, married priests and women clergy.

Then his last words...

Fohur2:
"I am happy--let you be happy, also. Let's pray together with joy; I entrust everything to the Virgin Mary with joy".

I don't understand and haven't learned a lot about Catholic perspective, I have only recently seen how different it is from the Christian perspectives. To me it seems very 'ego' dominated. Yes, good things come with it but at what cost?

Surely the next Pope will have to carry on in the same tradition with the same values and principles because anything otherwise would be like branching off into another religion.

StanT · 04-02-2005, 06:22 PM

On one of his first trips abroad (to France, I believe) the local news reported that they loved the singer; but hated the song. Kinda sums up my feelings, as well.

OFKU0 · 04-02-2005, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

a little respect please...;

Absolutely. Being raised Catholic but now areligious, the man was an inspiration to a billion people. Although I don't follow the teachings of the church, I am humbled by his conviction and discipline to forward humanity through peace and resolve. For anyone to dismiss his legacy as insignificant, not only marks an intellectual void of oneself but also provides a template of irrelevance antithetical of the man himself.

Amnesia620 · 04-02-2005, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arroe

If this is a "minor event", I would like to hear what you call a major event.

Pope John Paul II was probably the most influencial leaders in the past quarter century. His message was of peace and compassion. I am a Catholic and I have been praying for the Pope these past few days as he has been suffering before his death. Today and for the next few days, I along with one sixth of the world who follow under the Pope in the Catholic Church, will be mourning his passing. Many more who are not Catholic will be doing the same, because as a man, Pope John Paul II was about as good of a person as you could get. I am sure he is already in Heaven with all the other Saints and God.

The world has lost a great man today.

I am not trying to speak for Art or anyone else, but I will say that my interpretation of "minor" is that the Pope was old, had made many contributions and it was his time to go.

However, the world has lost many great men...and women, recently...

lindseylatch · 04-02-2005, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Painted

Although I also respect his accomplishments as a person, I loathe him because he is the leader of a group of people who tortured and killed thousands of gays, "witches", and heresists (people of other religions). And he/they never said "sorry".

Hey, Bush is the leader of a group of people (Americans) who killed and totured hundred of thousands of indians, germans, and japanese...and whoever leads the Germans (is it a prime minister?) is the leader of people who also killed millions of heresists and gays.
Oh, and don't forget the slavery...
You cannot blame someone who had nothing to do with these issues. Although he hasn't specifically said sorry, he did do great work in issues of human rights. Please don't trivialize these because he didn't apoligize for the actions of others.

04-02-2005, 08:30 PM

We are living now to die. I hope I go out with even a fraction of the of the loss that the world is showing us they feel now. It will have been a life well lived.

Elphaba · 04-02-2005, 08:38 PM

One of the great acts of John Paul II is that he *did* apologize on behalf of the Catholic Chuch for all harm done to the Jews for two centuries.

Painted · 04-02-2005, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lindseylatch

Hey, Bush is the leader of a group of people (Americans) who killed and totured hundred of thousands of indians, germans, and japanese...and whoever leads the Germans (is it a prime minister?) is the leader of people who also killed millions of heresists and gays.
Oh, and don't forget the slavery...
You cannot blame someone who had nothing to do with these issues. Although he hasn't specifically said sorry, he did do great work in issues of human rights. Please don't trivialize these because he didn't apoligize for the actions of others.

I acknowledge what the Americans did to other people, and I loathe the fact that we nearly destroyed a race of people (as well as other peoples we have killed/enslaved) and have never admitted it was wrong to do so. Germany, however, is different because they did admit they did the wrong thing. Plus Germany has very little Nazi influence these days. Yes, John Paul apologized for killing and torturing heresists, however this came about 750 years later after it happened. And he still is (was) opposed to homosexuality.

Memalvada · 04-02-2005, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

One of the great acts of John Paul II is that he *did* apologize on behalf of the Catholic Chuch for all harm done to the Jews for two centuries.

I was about to point that out as well...

I had been feeling sorry for the Pope for months, now Im gad he is finally resting peacefully in heaven.

You have to admit that the man had a lot of strength and determination to keep on carrying his duties as Pope for so long despite his ailments. His impact and influence on the world both in the religious and political aspects are undeniable, so Art, I dont know how you can call this a 'minor' event. Yes, there will be a new Pope, and this fact is just as significant, because he will determine the path of the catholic church, along with its one billion followers.

The least one can do is to show respect for such an important figure, and even much more now that he has passed away.

Rdr4evr · 04-02-2005, 10:34 PM

His loss is minor to me and millions of others, while significant to millions as well. His death has zero effect on me for the fact that he is just another man who has herded countless sheep to bow in his presence, as did all ‘leaders’ before him and as all will do after him. He is simply a man that succumbed to the powerful grasp of organized religion who happened to be placed in a position of power. Good people die everyday, people who choose not to be in the spotlight, and their lives are just as significant, and shouldn’t deserve less recognition. I don't think the Popes loss is any greater than any other human loss, although most of humanity places greater value on one mans life and none to the next.

Amnesia620 · 04-02-2005, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lindseylatch

Hey, Bush is the leader of a group of people (Americans) who killed and totured hundred of thousands of indians, germans, and japanese...and whoever leads the Germans (is it a prime minister?) is the leader of people who also killed millions of heresists and gays.
Oh, and don't forget the slavery...
You cannot blame someone who had nothing to do with these issues. Although he hasn't specifically said sorry, he did do great work in issues of human rights. Please don't trivialize these because he didn't apoligize for the actions of others.

Well said, Lindsey. However, the Pope did apologize.
To add to your well done post: Our founding fathers were slave owners - should Americans be loathed, each one of us, for the actions of our Ancestors and their actions that make up our History?
Should Aussie's be automatically (and unfairly) distrusted, loathed, hated even, for their Ancestors who were said to be "thieves", "convicts", etc. by England's ancestors?

Be fair...we ALL are only human...

guthmund · 04-02-2005, 11:03 PM

It's always sad to see good people pass on. It's particularly sad to see him go the way he did as it reminds me of unpleasant memories.

Respect the man for what he's accomplished, honor the man for the life he lived and try to leave the personal religious/political feelings out of it. He was an amazingly devout man. And although I certainly can't agree with a lot of his positions, I can certainly respect the man for his dedication and faith.

All that said, the 48 hour 'Pope-fest' that is the cable news networks this weekend is a bit much.

Ella · 04-02-2005, 11:05 PM

While recognising this as a significant day in history, I also wonder what the Pope's death will do to the sale of 'The Da Vinci Code'.

analog · 04-02-2005, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brknkybrd

Somehow I doubt this guy would have wanted the media circus that is going on now.

John Paul II was actually a very large supporter of the media, the most ever of any Pope. He frequently took advantage of the "media circus" to get his word out to more people. He enjoyed having a lot of coverage whenever he travelled, as it also gave more people hope because they knew he was around and could hear him speak. He specifically sought after all people- rich, middle-class, poor, prisoners, everyone, with compassion, and used the free press to spread his faith. I think he'd be happy that lots more people got to hear his last message because of the media coverage. You have to keep in mind that no matter what your religion, there are places in the world and people in the world who consider hearing the Pope talk a blessing in itself. To be able to readily find out his final comment would be very reassuring in a time of mourning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Painted

...I loathe him because he is the leader of a group of people who tortured and killed thousands of gays, "witches", and heresists (people of other religions). And he/they never said "sorry".

First of all, as stated above, he DID publicly apologize (i think in 2000) for practically everything the Catholic church has done wrong to others throughout history. The Crusades, their non-involvement with WWII- several things.

Also, as said above, I can think of many other cultures with a LOT more blood on their hands. We could start right here in the U.S. if you prefer, but I don't feel like typing for an hour.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rdr4evr

...His death has zero effect on me for the fact that he is just another man who has herded countless sheep to bow in his presence, as did all ‘leaders’ before him and as all will do after him. He is simply a man that succumbed to the powerful grasp of organized religion who happened to be placed in a position of power. Good people die everyday, people who choose not to be in the spotlight, and their lives are just as significant, and shouldn’t deserve less recognition. I don't think the Popes loss is any greater than any other human loss, although most of humanity places greater value on one mans life and none to the next.

You make it sound like he started a small cult somewhere and made a few people kiss his ass for a while- his following is over a billion people, worldwide. He heads an "organized religion" that provides more charity relief than any other charitable organization in the world. If nothing else, he should deserve a little respect and recognition for spending his life trying to make other people's lives better. Sure there are people who can say they help their fellow human, but I think what this man has done would considerably outweigh the political or monetary contributions anyone else has made to the world.

------------------------------------------------------

I am very sad at the news, but I know what he's been going through- parkinson's, crippling arthritis, then some organ troubles, troubles breathing, flu, surgeries...

I am happy now, because I know he is finally at peace. God bless him and all those whose lives he's touched...

reiii · 04-02-2005, 11:47 PM

Could someone who knows something about this guy give a run down about what this man accomplished? How/why was he significant?

What makes John Paul II more than a symbol?
I know most Popes leave some kind of legacy, what is his?

StanT · 04-03-2005, 04:42 AM

While some Reagan supporters may disagree, John Paul II probably had more to do with the fall of communism than anyone else.

sixate · 04-03-2005, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARTelevision

You are quite correct. Sadly so, IMO.

I must agree. I'm sure that there were far more important people dying yesterday, and we heard nothing about it.

Psycho Dad · 04-03-2005, 05:03 AM

I'm not Catholic and not very religious in general and what I do understand about Christianity does not convince me that Jesus Christ would entirely endores the Catholic teachings. Nevertheless, I can see that the Pope is very important to the members of the Catholic faith and that the Pope's influence in all of our lives is far reaching.

On a side note... I can slightly recall when the Pope was selected and that there was a Pope right before him that only lived a very short time afterward. I was young but I remember them talking about the selction process quite a bit then just as I'm sure they will do more of now. What I'm wondering about is, it is said that the conclave cannot begin earlier than 15 days or later than 20 days after the pope's death. What does that mean? Were something to happen and it not begin within 20 days, what happens? Is there someone who would assume the position by default?

Mojo_PeiPei · 04-03-2005, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Painted

Although I also respect his accomplishments as a person, I loathe him because he is the leader of a group of people who tortured and killed thousands of gays, "witches", and heresists (people of other religions). And he/they never said "sorry".

Read and learn, maybe people will finally stop perpetuating the largely false and drastically over exaggerated "Black Legend".

Quote:

The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition

by Ellen Rice

"The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition," a 1994 BBC/A&E production, will re-air on the History Channel this December 3 at 10 p.m. It is a definite must-see for anyone who wishes to know how historians now evaluate the Spanish Inquisition since the opening of an investigation into the Inquisition's archives. The special includes commentary from historians whose studies verify that the tale of the darkest hour of the Church was greatly fabricated.

In its brief sixty-minute presentation, "The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition" provides only an overview of the origins and debunking of the myths of torture and genocide. The documentary definitely succeeds in leaving the viewer hungry to know more. The long-held beliefs of the audience are sufficiently weakened by the testimony of experts and the expose of the making of the myth.

The Inquisition began in 1480. Spain was beginning a historic reunification of Aragon and Castile. The marriage of Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabella of Castile created a unified Hispania not seen since Roman times. Afraid that laws commanding the exile or conversion of Jews were thwarted by conversos, i.e. synagogue-going "Catholics," Ferdinand and Isabella commissioned an investigation or Inquisition. They began the Inquisition hoping that religious unity would foster political unity, and other heads of state heralded Spain's labors for the advent of a unified Christendom. The documentary clearly and boldly narrates the historical context, which intimates that the Spanish were not acting odd by their contemporary standards.

The Inquisition Myth, which Spaniards call "The Black Legend," did not arise in 1480. It began almost 100 years later, and exactly one year after the Protestant defeat at the Battle of Mühlberg at the hands of Ferdinand's grandson, the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V. In 1567 a fierce propaganda campaign began with the publication of a Protestant leaflet penned by a supposed Inquisition victim named Montanus. This character (Protestant of course) painted Spaniards as barbarians who ravished women and sodomized young boys. The propagandists soon created "hooded fiends" who tortured their victims in horrible devices like the knife-filled Iron Maiden (which never was used in Spain). The BBC/A&E special plainly states a reason for the war of words: the Protestants fought with words because they could not win on the battlefield.

The Inquisition had a secular character, although the crime was heresy. Inquisitors did not have to be clerics, but they did have to be lawyers. The investigation was rule-based and carefully kept in check. And most significantly, historians have declared fraudulent a supposed Inquisition document claiming the genocide of millions of heretics.

What is documented is that 3000 to 5000 people died during the Inquisition's 350 year history. Also documented are the "Acts of Faith," public sentencings of heretics in town squares. But the grand myth of thought control by sinister fiends has been debunked by the archival evidence. The inquisitors enjoyed a powerful position in the towns, but it was one constantly jostled by other power brokers. In the outlying areas, they were understaffed - in those days it was nearly impossible for 1 or 2 inquisitors to cover the thousand-mile territory allotted to each team. In the outlying areas no one cared and no one spoke to them. As the program documents, the 3,000 to 5,000 documented executions of the Inquisition pale in comparison to the 150,000 documented witch burnings elsewhere in Europe over the same centuries.

The approach is purely historical, and therefore does not delve into ecclesial issues surrounding religious freedom. But perhaps this is proper. Because the crime was heresy, the Church is implicated, but the facts show it was a secular event.

One facet of the Black Legend that evaporates under scrutiny in this film is the rumor that Philip II, son of Charles V, killed his son Don Carlos on the advisement of the aging blind Grand Inquisitor. But without a shred of evidence, the legend of Don Carlos has been enshrined in a glorious opera by Verdi.

The special may be disturbing to young children. There are scenes of poor souls burning at the stake, and close-ups of the alleged torture devices. Scenes depicting witches consorting with pot-bellied devils are especially grotesque. For kids, this is the stuff of nightmares.

Discrediting the Black Legend brings up the sticky subject of revisionism. Re-investigating history is only invalid if it puts an agenda ahead of reality. The experts - once true believers in the Inquisition myth - were not out to do a feminist canonization of Isabella or claim that Tomas de Torquemada was a Marxist. Henry Kamen of the Higher Council for Scientific Research in Barcelona said on camera that researching the Inquisition's archives "demolished the previous image all of us (historians) had."

And the future of the Black Legend? For many it may continue to hold more weight than reality. There is the emotional appeal against the Church. The dissenters of today may easily imagine Torquemada's beady eyes as a metaphor of the Church's "dictatorial, controlling, damning" pronouncements. The myth is also the easiest endorsement of the secular state: "de-faith" the state and de-criminalize heresy. Who will be the revisionists in this case? Will the many follow Montanas' lead in rewriting history?

Our 20th century crisis of man playing God - usurping power over conception, life, and death - leaves us with no alternative but to qualify our demythologization of the Inquisition with a reminder: 3,000 to 5,000 victims are 3,000 to 5,000 too many.

http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodi...6/article4.html

Here's an article of more relevance, how Pope John Paul II opened up Papal records to investigation of the Inquisition.

Quote:

When the sins of the Catholic Church are recited (as they so often are) the Inquisition figures prominently. People with no interest in European history know full well that it was led by brutal and fanatical churchmen who tortured, maimed, and killed those who dared question the authority of the Church. The word "Inquisition" is part of our modern vocabulary, describing both an institution and a period of time. Having one of your hearings referred to as an "Inquisition" is not a compliment for most senators.

But in recent years the Inquisition has been subject to greater investigation. In preparation for the Jubilee in 2000, Pope John Paul II wanted to find out just what happened during the time of the Inquisition's (the institution's) existence. In 1998 the Vatican opened the archives of the Holy Office (the modern successor to the Inquisition) to a team of 30 scholars from around the world. Now at last the scholars have made their report, an 800-page tome that was unveiled at a press conference in Rome on Tuesday. Its most startling conclusion is that the Inquisition was not so bad after all. Torture was rare and only about 1 percent of those brought before the Spanish Inquisition were actually executed. As one headline read "Vatican Downsizes Inquisition."

The amazed gasps and cynical sneers that have greeted this report are just further evidence of the lamentable gulf that exists between professional historians and the general public. The truth is that, although this report makes use of previously unavailable material, it merely echoes what numerous scholars have previously learned from other European archives. Among the best recent books on the subject are Edward Peters's Inquisition (1988) and Henry Kamen's The Spanish Inquisition (1997), but there are others. Simply put, historians have long known that the popular view of the Inquisition is a myth. So what is the truth?

To understand the Inquisition we have to remember that the Middle Ages were, well, medieval. We should not expect people in the past to view the world and their place in it the way we do today. (You try living through the Black Death and see how it changes your attitude.) For people who lived during those times, religion was not something one did just at church. It was science, philosophy, politics, identity, and hope for salvation. It was not a personal preference but an abiding and universal truth. Heresy, then, struck at the heart of that truth. It doomed the heretic, endangered those near him, and tore apart the fabric of community.

The Inquisition was not born out of desire to crush diversity or oppress people; it was rather an attempt to stop unjust executions. Yes, you read that correctly. Heresy was a crime against the state. Roman law in the Code of Justinian made it a capital offense. Rulers, whose authority was believed to come from God, had no patience for heretics. Neither did common people, who saw them as dangerous outsiders who would bring down divine wrath. When someone was accused of heresy in the early Middle Ages, they were brought to the local lord for judgment, just as if they had stolen a pig or damaged shrubbery (really, it was a serious crime in England). Yet in contrast to those crimes, it was not so easy to discern whether the accused was really a heretic. For starters, one needed some basic theological training — something most medieval lords sorely lacked. The result is that uncounted thousands across Europe were executed by secular authorities without fair trials or a competent assessment of the validity of the charge.

The Catholic Church's response to this problem was the Inquisition, first instituted by Pope Lucius III in 1184. It was born out of a need to provide fair trials for accused heretics using laws of evidence and presided over by knowledgeable judges. From the perspective of secular authorities, heretics were traitors to God and the king and therefore deserved death. From the perspective of the Church, however, heretics were lost sheep who had strayed from the flock. As shepherds, the pope and bishops had a duty to bring them back into the fold, just as the Good Shepherd had commanded them. So, while medieval secular leaders were trying to safeguard their kingdoms, the Church was trying to save souls. The Inquisition provided a means for heretics to escape death and return to the community.

As this new report confirms, most people accused of heresy by the Inquisition were either acquitted or their sentences suspended. Those found guilty of grave error were allowed to confess their sin, do penance, and be restored to the Body of Christ. The underlying assumption of the Inquisition was that, like lost sheep, heretics had simply strayed. If, however, an inquisitor determined that a particular sheep had purposely left the flock, there was nothing more that could be done. Unrepentant or obstinate heretics were excommunicated and given over to secular authorities. Despite popular myth, the Inquisition did not burn heretics. It was the secular authorities that held heresy to be a capital offense, not the Church. The simple fact is that the medieval Inquisition saved uncounted thousands of innocent (and even not-so-innocent) people who would otherwise have been roasted by secular lords or mob rule.

During the 13th century the Inquisition became much more formalized in its methods and practices. Highly trained Dominicans answerable to the Pope took over the institution, creating courts that represented the best legal practices in Europe. As royal authority grew during the 14th century and beyond, control over the Inquisition slipped out of papal hands and into those of kings. Instead of one Inquisition there were now many. Despite the prospect of abuse, monarchs like those in Spain and France generally did their best to make certain that their inquisitions remained both efficient and merciful. During the 16th century, when the witch craze swept Europe, it was those areas with the best-developed inquisitions that stopped the hysteria in its tracks. In Spain and Italy, trained inquisitors investigated charges of witches' sabbaths and baby roasting and found them to be baseless. Elsewhere, particularly in Germany, secular or religious courts burned witches by the thousands.

Compared to other medieval secular courts, the Inquisition was positively enlightened. Why then are people in general and the press in particular so surprised to discover that the Inquisition did not barbecue people by the millions? First of all, when most people think of the Inquisition today what they are really thinking of is the Spanish Inquisition. No, not even that is correct. They are thinking of the myth of the Spanish Inquisition. Amazingly, before 1530 the Spanish Inquisition was widely hailed as the best run, most humane court in Europe. There are actually records of convicts in Spain purposely blaspheming so that they could be transferred to the prisons of the Spanish Inquisition. After 1530, however, the Spanish Inquisition began to turn its attention to the new heresy of Lutheranism. It was the Protestant Reformation and the rivalries it spawned that would give birth to the myth.

By the mid 16th century, Spain was the wealthiest and most powerful country in Europe. Europe's Protestant areas, including the Netherlands, northern Germany, and England, may not have been as militarily mighty, but they did have a potent new weapon: the printing press. Although the Spanish defeated Protestants on the battlefield, they would lose the propaganda war. These were the years when the famous "Black Legend" of Spain was forged. Innumerable books and pamphlets poured from northern presses accusing the Spanish Empire of inhuman depravity and horrible atrocities in the New World. Opulent Spain was cast as a place of darkness, ignorance, and evil.

Protestant propaganda that took aim at the Spanish Inquisition drew liberally from the Black Legend. But it had other sources as well. From the beginning of the Reformation, Protestants had difficulty explaining the 15-century gap between Christ's institution of His Church and the founding of the Protestant churches. Catholics naturally pointed out this problem, accusing Protestants of having created a new church separate from that of Christ. Protestants countered that their church was the one created by Christ, but that it had been forced underground by the Catholic Church. Thus, just as the Roman Empire had persecuted Christians, so its successor, the Roman Catholic Church, continued to persecute them throughout the Middle Ages. Inconveniently, there were no Protestants in the Middle Ages, yet Protestant authors found them there anyway in the guise of various medieval heretics. In this light, the medieval Inquisition was nothing more than an attempt to crush the hidden, true church. The Spanish Inquisition, still active and extremely efficient at keeping Protestants out of Spain, was for Protestant writers merely the latest version of this persecution. Mix liberally with the Black Legend and you have everything you need to produce tract after tract about the hideous and cruel Spanish Inquisition. And so they did.

In time, Spain's empire would fade away. Wealth and power shifted to the north, in particular to France and England. By the late 17th century new ideas of religious tolerance were bubbling across the coffeehouses and salons of Europe. Inquisitions, both Catholic and Protestant, withered. The Spanish stubbornly held on to theirs, and for that they were ridiculed. French philosophes like Voltaire saw in Spain a model of the Middle Ages: weak, barbaric, superstitious. The Spanish Inquisition, already established as a bloodthirsty tool of religious persecution, was derided by Enlightenment thinkers as a brutal weapon of intolerance and ignorance. A new, fictional Spanish Inquisition had been constructed, designed by the enemies of Spain and the Catholic Church.

Now a bit more of the real Inquisition has come back into view. The question remains, will anyone take notice?

http://www.nationalreview.com/comme...00406181026.asp

Just one of the many falicies used by Christo-phobes to try and discredit the church, just like Pius was "Hitler's Pope". Somehow the man still managed to save nearly one million jews, and he was proclaimed a hero by Golda Meir and Moshe Dayan, Israeli Prime ministers. Not that anybody really knows all this, or probably cares. Just gets me fired up when people ignorantly spew filth knocking my church.

biznatch · 04-03-2005, 10:42 AM

Well I can't say I'm mourning right now.
But the way I look at it..the pope is getting so much attention from the media and all because he died. A form of gratitude from the world from his actions? OK. But to me he is an old man, who peacefully feel asleep after working hard for all his life. And to me that's not different from all the farmers, workmen, mothers, or any type of hardworking men providing for their family that spent their life not putting energy in their personal well-being, but in the happiness of those whom they loved and cared about.
The pope considered all the catholics as his children..or part of his family. So he cared for them. Nothing exceptional about that. I respect the man, just as much as I respect any man who have their beliefs, and work in favor of these beliefs to benefit the world as a whole...even if they do only a little good, its still a positive step for humanity.
Bernard Werber says that people only want to reduce their unhappiness, instead of looking to increase their happiness. All of those who want to add to the world's happiness should be respected.
But to me the pope is no more than a great man among many, many others.

04-02-2005, 12:34 PM	#1 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Pope John Paul II is dead officially so, it seems: VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope John Paul II, the Pole who headed the Roman Catholic Church for 26 years and played a key role in the fall of communism in Europe, has died, the Vatican has announced. He was 84. The news was immediately announced to around 60,000 people gathered in St Peter's Square on Saturday evening and was met with a long applause, an Italian sign of respect. Bells tolled and many people wept openly. Click to enlarge photo "Our Holy Father John Paul has returned to the house of the Father," Archbishop Leonardo Sandri told the crowds. A Vatican statement said the Pontiff died at 9.37 p.m (8.37 p.m. British time) in his private apartment. Apart from his battle against communism, John Paul will be also be remembered for his unyielding defence of traditional Vatican doctrines as leader of the world's 1.1 billion Catholics. After the Pope's health became critical on Thursday, crowds had staged a vigil in St. Peter's Square, praying for a man already being dubbed by some Catholics as "John Paul the Great". The Pontiff's health had deteriorated steadily over the past decade and earlier this year took a sharp turn for the worse. Once a lithe athlete and powerful speaker, he was already racked by arthritis and Parkinson's Disease, his voice often reduced to a raspy whisper. He was rushed to hospital twice in February and had to have a tracheotomy to ease serious breathing problems. But he never regained his strength from the operation and failed dramatically on two occasions to address crowds at St. Peter's Square. On Wednesday doctors inserted a feeding tube into his stomach to try boost his energy levels. A day later he developed a urinary infection and high fever that soon precipitated heart failure, kidney problems and intermittent unconsciousness. GATHERED IN PRAYER As the Pope lay on his deathbed, worshippers around the globe held special prayers for the man who helped bring down the Iron Curtain but drew criticism from liberal Catholics who opposed his proclamations against contraception, abortion, married priests and women clergy. Bracing for his passing, faithful from Burundi to the Philippines gathered in prayer for the charismatic man who enjoyed the third-longest papal reign and visited more countries than any other pope. According to pre-written Church rules, the Pontiff's mourning rites will last 9 days and his body is likely to be laid to rest in the crypt underneath St Peter's Basilica. The conclave to elect a new Pope will start in 15 to 20 days, with almost 120 cardinals from around the world gathering in the Vatican's Sistine Chapel to choose a successor. There is no favourite candidate to take over. The former Archbishop Karol Wojtyla of Krakow was himself regarded as an outsider when he was elevated to the papacy on October 16, 1978. Few would have predicted then that the first non-Italian pope in 455 years would throw off the stiff trappings of the papacy, travel the globe and leave an indelible mark on history. In over a quarter century on the world stage, he was both a champion of the downtrodden and an often contested defender of orthodoxy within his own church. Historians say one of the Pope's most lasting legacies will be his role in the fall of communism in Eastern Europe in 1989. "Behold the night is over, day has dawned anew," the Pope said during a triumphant visit to Czechoslovakia in 1990. A decade after witnessing the fall of communism, he fulfilled another of his dreams. He visited the Holy Land in March 2000, and, praying at Jerusalem's Western Wall, asked forgiveness for Catholic sins against Jews over the centuries. But while many loved the man, his message was less popular and he was a source of deep division in his own church. Critics constantly attacked his traditionalist stance on family issues, such as his condemnation of contraception and homosexuality, and hope the next Pope will be more liberal. However, he has appointed more than 95 percent of the cardinals who will elect his successor, thus stacking the odds that his controversial teachings will not be tampered with. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

04-02-2005, 12:37 PM	#2 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	There will be far too much attention payed to this relatively minor event. Prepare for a seemingly endless and funereal multimedia experience. After that there will be blanket coverage of the selection of a new guy. __________________ create evolution

04-02-2005, 12:43 PM	#3 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	I suppose whether or not it is minor depends on your view. I am not a catholic, but to people who are it is a very important and emotional issue. And even if you do not follow this religion, he was the moral leader of 1 billion people, as his replacement will be. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

04-02-2005, 12:46 PM	#4 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	You are quite correct. Sadly so, IMO. __________________ create evolution

04-02-2005, 12:53 PM	#5 (permalink)
present_future Take my hand Location: Everywhere, but nowhere	I only hope that the new pope is as open as John Paull II was concerning the Catholic Church and the issues it faces in today's modern society. __________________ The only thing I'll ever ask of you... you gotta promise not to stop when I say when.

04-02-2005, 01:05 PM	#6 (permalink)
Fohur2 Crazy	Italian news agency Agenzia Giornalistica Italia reports the pope's final message was "I am happy--let you be happy, also. Let's pray together with joy; I entrust everything to the Virgin Mary with joy".

04-02-2005, 01:11 PM	#7 (permalink)
Liquor Dealer Super Agitator Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A	At a time like this it doesn't matter what religion one is, or isn't. This man changed history. He made things better for million and millions of people. For what he has accomplished he is due the respect of the rest of the world. I'm not Catholic - at this point it doesn't matter - he gave far more than he took from this earth. __________________ Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

04-02-2005, 01:13 PM	#8 (permalink)
Fohur2 Crazy	Couldn't of said it better myself.

04-02-2005, 02:40 PM	#11 (permalink)
Schwan A boy and his dog Location: EU!	I'm not catholic, or religous for that matter, but what I have experienced during the last three ours or so is truly amazing. As some of you know, I live in Warsaw, Poland. This pope always had a a special relationship with the people of his native land. I might have disagreed with him on most issues, but the expressions of emotions I just saw are truly heart breaking and amazing. It's late night here in Warsaw. I was outside, when I heard air raid sirens turn on throughout the city. After that there was an endless sound of church bells ringing from everywhere. I went to a local church. From the hill nearby I could see people swarming in from the surrounding areas. I went inside to pay my respect, and stayed in for the mass. There was about a thousand people inside and it was hard to find anyone who wasn't crying. Young & old alike - and I know that this sounds like fiction - stood side by side and weapt. It was truly amazing. The news reports say that downtown Warsaw is closed off - thousands of people came to pray in the churches in the city's Old Town in the center. I went for a ride - evenm though it's saturday night, and the city's usually empty at this time of night, there's normal traffic on the streets. People are walking everywhere with lit candles. It amazing. As I said - I disagreed with many things John Paul II said and done, but I respect the fact that he played a huge, huge role in the life's of many people. It's truly heartbreaking to see the whole nation grieve. From an atheists point of view I always thought of religion as opium for the masses, if you will. I think today changed my outlook slightly. Sure, religion can lead to bad things sometimes, but it can also lead to some wonderful things too - a sense of unity and love for your fellow man. Something that I found hard to understand until now, I guess.

04-02-2005, 02:52 PM	#12 (permalink)
brknkybrd I think I broke something. Location: Right behind you.	He is, officially now I see. Sigh Somehow I doubt this guy would have wanted the media circus that is going on now. I don't agree with all of Catholocism, but this was a pretty good guy. It pains me to see all the news sites scrambling to get their pre-prepared banners up for their articles, with the most humble picture of the Pope with "Pope John Paul II 1920 ~ 2005" carefully photoshopped overtop. Knowing that they probably had one ready to go for each of the last 3 years makes it all the more sad. Well, glad he got a rest, and he gets to meet the big man upstairs in person, I suppose. Rest in peace. __________________ Normal is overrated.

04-02-2005, 03:07 PM	#13 (permalink)
anleja disconnected Location: ignoreland	does anyone else think it odd that we were just witness to two (including Shiavo) widely reported accounts of the details of someone's impending death? it feels odd that i am not waiting for someone to die now, as i have been for the past two weeks. (not "waiting" as in "come on, die already!" ...just to clarify.) i was watching cnn last night, and had the thought: i wonder if the guy behind the desk was hoping the pope would die on his shift, so he would be the one who got to announce it.

04-02-2005, 03:28 PM	#14 (permalink)
Painted Pleasure Burn	Although I also respect his accomplishments as a person, I loathe him because he is the leader of a group of people who tortured and killed thousands of gays, "witches", and heresists (people of other religions). And he/they never said "sorry". __________________ I came across a nice rack at the department store

04-02-2005, 03:47 PM	#15 (permalink)
RogueHunter65 Insane Location: Boston, MA	I was very sad to hear of the Pope's death. I think that having a new Pope will be good for the church and I am interested to hear who will be his sucessor. I think that the Pope's position is very important and It will be interesting to see how the new Pope's policies will change (or not change) the catholic church. __________________ I suffer from amnesia and deja vu at the same time... I think I have forgotten this before

04-02-2005, 04:22 PM	#16 (permalink)
K-Wise It's All About The Ass!! Location: In a pool of mayonnaise!!	It's a sad day. Asta!! __________________ "I love music and it's my parents fault (closing statement)." - Me..quoting myself...from when I said that...On TFP..thats here...Tilted Forum Project *It ain't goodbye, it's see ya later! I'll miss you guys!* - Asta!!

04-02-2005, 04:28 PM	#17 (permalink)
Val_1 Addict Location: In a State of Denial	Not sure how I feel about the Pope passing, since I'm not religious. But, he was a proud and honorable man that lead a large number of people in (mostly) good ways. I hope his succesor continues the good work instead of moving backwards in his reforms. __________________ I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. -Frank Sinatra

04-02-2005, 04:47 PM	#18 (permalink)
Grasshopper Green ...is a comical chap Location: Where morons reign supreme	I too am not a Catholic, but my heart feels a little heavy, and a little lighter, in hearing of his passing. I truly think that he was a good person and tried to be a good leader to his church, and that makes me respect him. I am glad he is no longer suffering, and I hope that his followers can be glad for that as well. Rest in peace, John Paul. __________________ "They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king" Formerly Medusa

04-02-2005, 05:00 PM	#20 (permalink)
Dwayne Crazy Location: New England	I was wondering how much longer he would last. I hope we have a pope that will see the world is changing and run the church accordingly.

04-02-2005, 05:34 PM	#21 (permalink)
Seeker Getting Clearer Location: with spirit	I'm not sure how I feel about the whole thing... just one example for instance: Strange Famous: As the Pope lay on his deathbed, worshippers around the globe held special prayers for the man who helped bring down the Iron Curtain but drew criticism from liberal Catholics who opposed his proclamations against contraception, abortion, married priests and women clergy. Then his last words... Fohur2: "I am happy--let you be happy, also. Let's pray together with joy; I entrust everything to the Virgin Mary with joy". I don't understand and haven't learned a lot about Catholic perspective, I have only recently seen how different it is from the Christian perspectives. To me it seems very 'ego' dominated. Yes, good things come with it but at what cost? Surely the next Pope will have to carry on in the same tradition with the same values and principles because anything otherwise would be like branching off into another religion.

04-02-2005, 06:22 PM	#22 (permalink)
StanT © Location: Colorado	On one of his first trips abroad (to France, I believe) the local news reported that they loved the singer; but hated the song. Kinda sums up my feelings, as well.

04-02-2005, 08:30 PM	#26 (permalink)
Morania Guest	We are living now to die. I hope I go out with even a fraction of the of the loss that the world is showing us they feel now. It will have been a life well lived.

04-02-2005, 08:38 PM	#27 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	One of the great acts of John Paul II is that he did apologize on behalf of the Catholic Chuch for all harm done to the Jews for two centuries.

04-02-2005, 10:34 PM	#30 (permalink)
Rdr4evr Banned	His loss is minor to me and millions of others, while significant to millions as well. His death has zero effect on me for the fact that he is just another man who has herded countless sheep to bow in his presence, as did all ‘leaders’ before him and as all will do after him. He is simply a man that succumbed to the powerful grasp of organized religion who happened to be placed in a position of power. Good people die everyday, people who choose not to be in the spotlight, and their lives are just as significant, and shouldn’t deserve less recognition. I don't think the Popes loss is any greater than any other human loss, although most of humanity places greater value on one mans life and none to the next. Last edited by Rdr4evr; 04-02-2005 at 10:45 PM..

04-02-2005, 11:03 PM	#32 (permalink)
guthmund big damn hero	It's always sad to see good people pass on. It's particularly sad to see him go the way he did as it reminds me of unpleasant memories. Respect the man for what he's accomplished, honor the man for the life he lived and try to leave the personal religious/political feelings out of it. He was an amazingly devout man. And although I certainly can't agree with a lot of his positions, I can certainly respect the man for his dedication and faith. All that said, the 48 hour 'Pope-fest' that is the cable news networks this weekend is a bit much. __________________ No signature. None. Seriously.

04-02-2005, 11:05 PM	#33 (permalink)
Ella Ella Bo Bella Location: Australia	While recognising this as a significant day in history, I also wonder what the Pope's death will do to the sale of 'The Da Vinci Code'. __________________ "Afterwards, the universe will explode for your pleasure."

04-02-2005, 11:47 PM	#35 (permalink)
reiii unstuck in time Location: Nashville/D.C.	Could someone who knows something about this guy give a run down about what this man accomplished? How/why was he significant? What makes John Paul II more than a symbol? I know most Popes leave some kind of legacy, what is his? __________________ "Jombe? The chocolate icing" -hedonism bot

04-03-2005, 04:42 AM	#36 (permalink)
StanT © Location: Colorado	While some Reagan supporters may disagree, John Paul II probably had more to do with the fall of communism than anyone else.

04-03-2005, 05:03 AM	#38 (permalink)
Psycho Dad Mulletproof Location: Some nucking fut house.	I'm not Catholic and not very religious in general and what I do understand about Christianity does not convince me that Jesus Christ would entirely endores the Catholic teachings. Nevertheless, I can see that the Pope is very important to the members of the Catholic faith and that the Pope's influence in all of our lives is far reaching. On a side note... I can slightly recall when the Pope was selected and that there was a Pope right before him that only lived a very short time afterward. I was young but I remember them talking about the selction process quite a bit then just as I'm sure they will do more of now. What I'm wondering about is, it is said that the conclave cannot begin earlier than 15 days or later than 20 days after the pope's death. What does that mean? Were something to happen and it not begin within 20 days, what happens? Is there someone who would assume the position by default? __________________ Don't always trust the opinions of experts.

04-03-2005, 10:42 AM	#40 (permalink)
biznatch Junkie Location: France	Well I can't say I'm mourning right now. But the way I look at it..the pope is getting so much attention from the media and all because he died. A form of gratitude from the world from his actions? OK. But to me he is an old man, who peacefully feel asleep after working hard for all his life. And to me that's not different from all the farmers, workmen, mothers, or any type of hardworking men providing for their family that spent their life not putting energy in their personal well-being, but in the happiness of those whom they loved and cared about. The pope considered all the catholics as his children..or part of his family. So he cared for them. Nothing exceptional about that. I respect the man, just as much as I respect any man who have their beliefs, and work in favor of these beliefs to benefit the world as a whole...even if they do only a little good, its still a positive step for humanity. Bernard Werber says that people only want to reduce their unhappiness, instead of looking to increase their happiness. All of those who want to add to the world's happiness should be respected. But to me the pope is no more than a great man among many, many others. __________________ Check it out: The Open Source/Freeware/Gratis Software Thread