Weight prejudice on the TFP....
 

I have been a member of the TFP for about 7 months now. The TFP is my internet home. I have a number of internet sites saved as "favorites" , yet the TFP is practically the only one I come to. This site I revere as an absolutely "safe" place to come to. The majority of the members are neutral and considerate. I anticipate and (really) expect the people here to be above what one would normally find in an internet forum.

However, I have held my tongue for too long. Yes, I am "obese". Although I am quite overweight, I am not "grossly obese". Medically I would just be considered "morbidly" obese, although I carry my weight pretty well. Given that the TFP is made up of a majority of males, the negative comments about overweight females (or males, but my observations are that it's females that are talked about mostly) must therefore be made by men.

Given the lack of tolerence for negative comments about practically everything else on the TFP, I feel the need to say something about the acceptance of those same type of comments towards people that don't fit the "Hollywood" body ideal.

I realize (although I don't understand it, given that 60 some percent of people in the U.S. are larger than a size 12, according to this weeks "Time") that "being fat" is the last accepted prejudice. What I have a problem with is that being the case on the TFP. I understand, and agree myself, that fat isin't that attractive. But please people, are you perfect? No, you are not. Anyone who is overweight has issues whether psychological or physical that has resulted in their weight gain. You don't know where they've been or what they've gone through that may have led (emotionally) to them turning to food as a band-aid for their pain, or what physical conditions or problems they might have that led to their weight gain.

Please people, get off your high horses. Believe it or not, I am the exception to the average (thin) persons idea of what a "fat ass" must live like. I eat maybe 1 1/2 meals a day (all home cooked, w/ lots of tomatoes, garlic and olive oil which is heart healthy). I eat fast food on average 1 meal every two months. I don't scarf down a half-gallon of ice-cream in a sitting, nor a bag of chips. In essence, food is not my problem, my body is. It simply doesn't want to play nice. I admit that excercise is my problem. I live with cronic back-pain which makes physical activity hard, which leads to me being inert, which leads to more back pain, etc.... That is a good example though. Too many think that anyone who is fat just eat themselves to that state. No, a lot of reasons can lead to someone being overweight. Not every fat person is that way because they sit on the couch all day and eat everything in sight.

O'kay, I'm pretty much done. I'm just sick and tired of reading comments from people who are too young (and I'm only 33) to have life really catch up to them (which can mean weight gain) or are so shallow that they think it can't ever happen to them, and therefore, based on those impressions, make callous comments about those that aren't just like them.

I know that my thread isin't going to save the world, and probably isin't going to even be read by the very people I'm talking about, but this has been ticking me of for so long now that I had to say something.

I had been considering posting pic's in Exhibition but I am just way too self-concious to given the many posts I've read that have comments about how "fat" a women is. I feel that there are really only a few dozen people on the TFP who are truly neutral and accepting (you guys know who you are!).

I would love to see some members stepping up to the plate and calling people on these "fat" comments, although I won't hold my breath 'cuz as I said before, "fat" is the last acceptable prejudice.

Ali

I honestly don't recall seeing any "fat" comments thrown around in any of the threads that I've been reading. I could maybe see them in some of the erogenous zone threads, but anywhere else they seem to be non-existent (in my experience).

I do realize the people can be very mean and insensitive, but I'm not sure I remember seeing any anti-fat comments here on TFP.

The anti-fat comments that you do get from people are probably stemming from a lack of self esteem on their parts. Don't let their insecurity bother you. As cheezy and simplistic as it sounds, a persons worth does not stem from the exterior, but the interior. Judging by your posts, you are a very good person. You are a good person who just happens to be overweight. As someone who was overweight myself for 3 or 4 years, I do sympathise about the comments and the way society treats you. It isn't fair that there is all this pressure.

It also sounds like you are taking an active role in your health, so you can't be accused of being lazy or stagnent in your weight. That's better than most Americans. Most people will buy a fad diet book and follow it for a week before binging on McDonalds and Ben & Jerry's. You deserve credit for that.

If you'll notice in the exhibition section, no one really has negetive comments.

Speaking only for myself, I find a person's body language, personal manner and facial attractiveness to be the major determining factors in whether I am comfortable interacting with someone in person. If you're getting your idea of how people view women by looking at the Titty Board... that's like polling juvenile hall for opinions on the Police.

I definitely think that people are less forgiving (here and well, people in general) when it comes to overweight people. People that have never been overweight tend to place the blame squarely on the person, rather than considering that maybe some outside factors have to do with it. As far as they're concerned, all it takes to get fat is eat a lot and get no exercise. But I have yet to meet a single "big" person who got that way simply by planting their ass on the couch and eating non-stop. I'm a big guy myself, but I've been this way my entire life. Both my parents are fat and lazy, so you can only imagine what standards they set for me as a child. But if a thin person were to look at me not knowing my past, their instinct is to think I spend my Friday nights crying into a bucket of chicken about why I look the way I do. Ignorance makes it easier for people to go about their lives, instead of having to stop and actually think there's a person underneath their appearance.

I'm pretty much echoing what Sauve said.

I can't recall seeing "fat" comments around here. In fact, I find most people are more accepting of it than being insensitive and judgemental (compared to what I see in day-to-day life offline).

i have seen the occasional comment in tilted sex, or similar forums...but if memory serves, other members have confronted it on most occasions.

when stuff happens, call it out...that's my advice.

I would have to agree that i haven't really seen any negative comments about overweight people. THe only exception as mentioned above would be the titty board, even then there are those who enjoy a plump woman *shrugs*.

Personally I'm the complete opposite of the way you explained yourself. I'm as skinny as a twig. I can eat all day every day and not gain any weight/muscle. Could work out and do the protein shake stuff and im still a twig. Every time i see/saw my grandparents/ father / step mother/ teachers / friends / coaches i'd always end up hearing the same thing "you're too skinny" "damn you're skinny" "have you been eating" "have your parents been feeding you" etc etc. *shrugs* You all may not think its the same but its not really all that different. Ask a guy what they think of the olsen twins you'd most likely hear something about them being hot, except the one is way too skinny - "thats sick".

Im pretty heavy - 5 9 and about 280 lbs, and no one here has ever really made fun of me for being fat, so far as I can recall - so if they did it didnt make much of an impression I guess.

I'm sorry you have that impression, but as far as I've seen, everyone's pretty tolerant of anything around here. I'm 6'2' and around 280, pretty big guy, and I have pictures in both portraits and exhibition and haven't recieved anything but positive comments. Go ahead and post your pictures, some of us are more interested in smiling lips or twinkling eyes than counting ribs! =D

Being a short skinny person I don't make fun of anyone's size mainly because I'm affraid for my life. I can be crushed very easy.

ehh, I will let someone else argue this. If no one else will, then I will add something later.

One thing to think about, do you think that maybe your weight is exacerbating your back pain? Remember, even if you have trouble exercising, you still control the calories you put in your mouth.

This topic crops up every now and again and I think the majority of our members are fairly mature people who don't judge solely on apperences.

That being said, we will always have shallow individuals who's first impression of a person's worth is based on their looks.

When these discussions crop up, inveriably they defend themselves and explain their positions (which is ok, even while I disagree), but anyone who goes off on a "fatty" flame will be shown the door, even as anyone who disrespects their fellow members is.

As to the exhibition forum, I totally understand your feelings, but you might try to focus on all the positive comments our bigger female membership has garnered. We have some very beautiful bigger women around here and many of us appreciate them :)

I'm surprised that so many people claim to have not seen the "fat" comments on TFP. I know for a fact that they exist and I suspect that most of us fail to recognize weight prejudice even when it is right in front of us. Some examples: In tilted politics I have seen people comment (I believe in a thread about universal health care) that fat people are lazy and don't deserve to have the same access to health care as skinny people, In the titty bored I have seen many comments calling relatively slight models fat and ugly and here in sexuality just yesterday I read a post about a man trying to make his new girlfriend lose weight (thankfully in this case many TFPers stood up and pointed out that this was not his responsibility).

In most cases I don't think these comments are meant to be hurtful or prejudice, unfortunately sizism is so ingrained in our society that many of us do not think about how our comments might be unfair. To often anti-fat comments are hidden under the guise of "It's not healthy." It is not possible to judge if someone is healthy based only on appearances and is especially impossible to judge this based on words or ever a picture. And frankly it's none of our business. It's never our place to judge someone else’s body or try to force our idea of beauty onto another person.

Alicat: thanks for bringing this up, I hope TFP can continue to evolve into an all embracing community. And, as others have said, when you see prejudice please point it out so that we can all learn from our mistakes.

I read one thread that was about a company firing workers who smoked at home. This led to some negative comments on fat people. Like most prejudice until we actually know someone we believe all the stereotypical things were hear about a group. I don't think TFPs are any more prejudiced against fat people than the world in general. Unfortunately the majority of us no longer fit into the "ideal" in regards to proper weight. Until the perception that all fat people are pigs and lazy is overcome many people will assume that is true, because that is what they hear. Throw off your ignorance and get to know a fat person. I am one.

Yeah, I'm also not too sure where you're getting all these "fat" insults you're talking about. As moderators, we likely will collectively see every thread on this board several times over, and every post in them. I mean, that's what we're here for- and you're right, we are not very tolerant of insulting behavior. This is why your argument seems to go flat. I do hope, as Halx said, that you're not talking about anything found in the Erogenous Zone.

We all have our shortcomings or things about us that we would like to change, and those parts of us often cause a hypersensitive external radar for anything even remotely related. I think perhaps much of what you perceive as an injustice or a slight to your unfortunate weight situation may simply be your specific sensitivities getting the better of you. As you said- we're all human, none of us are perfect.

Bearing all this in mind, please also remember that every post in every thread has a "report this post to a moderator" link on it. They're there for a reason- use them if you feel someone is out of line. Then, perhaps, we can ascertain the true nature of the problems you face on this board.

- analog.

You can eat healthy and still stay fat. Only caloric deficit will result in weight loss.

I see to no reason to be accepting of someone who does not want to work hard enough to become healthy. Unless you have a severe medical condition that resulted in you being obese, there is no excuse.

Now if I saw you in the gym working your ass off (pun not intended), or planning your meals in order to reach your goals, then I see no reason for someone to disrespect you. If you just sit and moan about how your body won't cooperate, don't expect people to be accepting.

I'm not asking (and I'm sure no one else is) that you have a perfect body, or that you be quick in getting it. That is of course unrealistic. But you cannot expect someone to accept the choices that made you obese, or the choices that keep you there.

Exactly how much "accepting" do you have to do? It's not much work for you to let someone be, is it? I don't understand your post. :confused:

While I don't mean to pick on this particular member, this is a good point to what I was saying earlier.

This member has a right to his opinion even while I disagree with it (the idea that you are 'acceptable' only if you are working hard to be healthy is distasteful to me. What is his definition of "working hard"? Why should I worry about being 'acceptable' to you? etc.)

Anyway, he posted in a respectful manner and the comment can stand even while I might find it hurtful and closed minded.


edited becauz I stil kant spel

I was thinking the same thing, but figured someone else would bring it up as well. I would love to add to your comment, but fear someone will turn it into something bad and start a senseless argument, which has been the case for me lately, something I'd rather avoid for now.

Like most others, I haven't seen any negative comments or insults to overweight individuals on this board. I'm guessing a mod wouldn't let it last longer than a few minutes anyway, so chances of catching it are low also.

EDIT: I just saw CandleIntheDark's statement, which I fully agree with and it for the most part sums up the situation. Unless it's medically or physically impossible for someone to lose weight, all else is just excuses.

EDIT 2: I don't think CandleInTheDark is saying we shouldn't be accepting of those who are overweight, but rather those who want people to feel sorry for them for being overweight yet do nothing about their problem except whine (generally speaking, it's not exclusive to weight). Unless I misinterpreted what he is saying, that statement is correct. One must be responsible and take action rather than complain and expect results if something is bothering them.

Alicat:

One of the nice things about forums on the Internet is that MOST of the time you are judged by your intellect, wit, and personality instead of your looks & physique.

That being said, in any situation or surroundings you will find those who are less accepting of others. My suggestion is to write off the jerks and focus your energies on those who are more in sync with you mentally & spiritually.

I think this is a good example of what the thread starter is talking about. We should respect each other as individuals and keep in mind that all of our lives have unique challenges. Judging someone's worth based on their appearance is unfair and IMO unacceptable.

Do I go out of my way to insult or show disrespect to an obese individual? Of course not. But if someone complains or comments to me (or in a public forum) about not wanting to be obese, or how hard it is to lose weight, or how people don't accept them, they should not expect acceptance (from me) then.

If you have a problem with a changeble aspect in your life, then change it; don't complain about it.

Asking for help? Awesome.
Asking for information? Great.
Asking for sympathy while doing nothing to change your situation? Not a chance.

EDIT:

My objection is not with appearance. My great appreciation of some less that socially ideal women on The Titty Board, should be evidence of that. My objection is with the choices people make. Obesity is (almost always) a result of choices that (almost always) impair a person's health (physically and mentally).

Yes Rdr4evr, I'm more than content to let the non-complainers be. If you're happy with yourself awesome. If you're not and you can change yourself, but don't (try), then don't expect sympathy and acceptance.

i only remember seeing one post about "fat" thingy. I think it was in the living section were some bloke wanted info on how to help is gf lose weight. if i remember correctly everyone was very supportive with no negative views towards the weight thing...now the post was another story i think...hehe

Bah, if no one likes the junk in my trunk, its their loss. Shake it off alicat. Accept yourself and noone will be able to get to you.

Not to thread jack, but i want to add the opposite, when i was younger, 13-24 (am 29 now) I was constantly teased by family and friends and whoever for being so skinny. I was about 6ft, 140lbs in college and it was a running joke. Never bothered me i guess, expect that it got a bit old. Now that i am older i've got up to as high as 230, but sit around 195-200lbs. I remember how good it felt to be called tubby when i was at 230 from a couple of mates. I always remember being skinny and never want to be at that stage again. I use to eat a full dinner, seconds, then a couple of sandwichs before bed as i was always hunger (young boys eh). I know this is the complete opposite of this situation but i feel i can relate in this opposite way. gotta live life for you, not anyone else.........unless you have kids then its about them.

When I was younger I was stick-skinny...since I have small breasts and a youthful appearance, I got lots of comments along the lines that I looked like I wasn't done developing yet, looked like a 12-year old, etc. Some of these comments were very insulting and demeaning. I've been repeatedly told I'm "not a real woman." I'll never forget the day I was in a cafe telling some friends a story and some guy walked up, grabbed my jacket and opened it up to show my chest, and said, "What's the matter, they cut your tits off?"

Heavy people might think life is perfect if you're small but the truth is people will find some way to be hurtful no matter what you look like. Because of the way I was made to feel because of my body shape, I am sympathetic on this issue. I also feel that since I've never been fat, I have no right to speak on the subject and cannot possibly understand the challenges obese people face. In my opinion, it's just out of line to make comments on people's appearance (unless it's to compliment somebody). I may not like the way someone looks but I will accept their right to exist the way they are without me butting in.

These forums are usually respectful of most people and the moderators keep it that way. I think the original poster of this thread is probably referring to things like that quoted below from a recent thread concerning an employer's policy to get rid of people with risky lifestyle choices. I guess one can get the idea that overweight people are irresponsible or something like that.
Note: If you are the writer I in no way meant to single you out. I just did a quick search to try and see what posts the thread starter might be upset with.

Likewise, I can see at least two or three posts in this thread that go to support alicat's statement.

I do get rightly pissed off when comments are made against fat people. A majority of the non-fat asses in this world think that if you're fat, it's your own damn fault and that you caused it. Ha! There is such a thing as genetics. There is such a thing as differing metabolic rates.

I'm fat but it doesn't bother me. I know that the only way for me to lose weight is to exercise a ton and eat completely healthy and in small quantities. One premise that I will NOT let slide is the fact that some people's metabolic rates are different than others. My friends in high school sat on their asses and played videogames all day. At lunch they'd eat two slices of pizza, french fries, icecream, and a drink. I'd eat the main item and the side item and tea. They never gained a pound and remainded skinny. If I varied from my two-item diet, I'd gain weight in no-time flat. Some people simply gain weight and lose weight faster than others. Some people can eat whatever they want for their entire lives without gaining weight.

Another aforementioned topic is being born fat. My grandpa and my dad are fat. I was born fat and always have been fat. I was down to eating barely anything all day in high school and still remained over 200 pounds. Now I eat what I want and have levelled off at around 260 being 5'10". I wouldn't be skinny eating a normal diet...I simply wouldn't.

My point? Diets do affect how fat you are, but it only goes so far for some people. Before you decide that a person is fat because they eat too much, try to remember that some people are born with low metabolic rates. It's not stuffing our faces that makes all fat people big -- it's simply their genetic build.

I'm personally glad there are fat people in this world -- I think chubby girls are 1000% cuter than skinny girls. To all of the chubby girls out there: you're hot.

-Lasereth

oh boy... sticky sticky topic.

chin up, alicat. just be your best in every way as best you can.
*hugs*

I call bullshit. :) Read my above post. A good portion of fat people out there are born like it. Fat people shouldn't have to go out of their way to get skinny to "fit in," just like skinny people shouldn't have to go out of their way to eat a thousand donuts to fit in with fat people. Some people do make bad choices that result in them being fat, but it's not "almost always." On top of that, a fat person shouldn't have to become skinny just to gain acceptance by anyone.

-Lasereth

Live your life however. It shows maturity to accept that everyone is entitled to their opinion. Past opinions, what I know to be true may not be true to you and we each learn to deal with that dynamic. I know that the majority of people who are obese could overcome it and get their wheight down to a healthy level if they had the commitment and desire to do so even if it took years. If they don't, that's fine. They live with the consequences of being obese. I have been overwheight and through being active at work and casually lifting wheights, I turned my 6'7" body into the mean fighting machine it is now.

Can you tell me a condition where you can gain fat while still being in a caloric defecit? Your body can't produce fat out of nowhere.

I'm willing to concede there is a genetic component. But I believe you are exagerrating it's effects. Metabolic rates certainly differ; but that would only effect the time it takes to burn calories. It may take someone with a slow metabolic rate longer to shed fatty tissue, but it's not going to prevent someone on a caloric defecit from losing that tissue.

Do they have to become "skinny" (which isn't a much healthier state)? No. But then neither should they be complaining about it. I'm not going to respect and accept someone when they complain about something they want changed, and do nothing to see that change happen. Do all obese people do this? No. But I suspect the majority do, just like many non obese people.

Being obese is not akin to being black, white, gay, straight, Canadian, or mentally retarded. Your colour, nationality (largely), and sexuality are not the result of your choices. Obesity (in almost every case) is.

I didnt read really any of the thread
but
that's why you're overweight.
eating less often does not equal losing weight
it equals weight GAIN

when you seldom eat, your body slows downs its functions; your body goes into "survival" mode by storing up fat.

You're missing the point. Alicat is saying that some people have been prejudice against fat people. So now you're saying that fat people have to "take action" and become skinny so they won't be made fun of?

She's not complaining about being fat, she's complaining about the people who are being prejudice because of it. There's a big difference. She's not complaining about how she wishes she were skinny but doesn't want to work for it...she just wants the prejudice people to accept that not everyone is skinny.

-lasereth

From healthierus.gov:

Fitness problems such as obesity and overweight have reached truly epidemic proportions in the United States. In the last 10 years, obesity rates have increased by more than 60 percent among adults. In 1999, 61 percent of the adult population was either overweight or obese. The obesity epidemic impacts other diseases as well. For example, the incidence of type 2 diabetes, a major consequence of obesity, is on the rise. Among U.S. adults, diagnosed diabetes increased 49 percent from 1990 to 2000.
The rate of increase in overweight among young people has been even steeper. This is particularly troubling since many of the behaviors that lead to adult obesity are established during childhood. Just 10 years ago, type 2 diabetes was virtually unknown in children and adolescents. Indeed, the medical community commonly referred to the condition as "adult onset diabetes." Today, it accounts for almost 50 percent of new cases of pediatric diabetes in some communities. Medical complications associated with obesity in children can lead to hospitalizations for type 2 diabetes, sleep apnea, and asthma. Since 1980, the percentage of children who are overweight has nearly doubled, and the percentage of adolescents who are overweight has nearly tripled. Almost 9 million young Americans, or about 15 percent of all children, are overweight.


http://my.webmd.com/content/article/64/72524.htm
May 15, 2003 - The health care costs associated with obesity now rival those attributable to smoking, according to a new study. Researchers say obesity costs in the U.S. totaled up to $92.6 billion last year, and government-funded public insurers Medicare and Medicaid financed about half of those expenses.

Lasereth, if genetics play such a large role in obesity, then why the massive shift upwards in only 10 years? Are we evolving that quickly? BTW, I have seen your list of video games, it is pretty impressive. You must spend a fair amount of time playing.

How many hours do all of us spend in front of the computer each day? How many at TFP alone? I know I spend a fair amount of time here, time that could be spent doing something more active. Now who's fault is that? Well I guess my own, same thing when I had a Haagen Daz ice cream bar just now. No one was holding a gun to my head.

The point is that diet and obesity is something that individual people control. Not society, not strictly genetics. So your metabolism is a little different. So what. I have an alcoholic uncle, and my sister can be a little bit of a lush and she smokes. I could have an addictive personality, but I make decisions that benefit me. I don't drink, I don't smoke, and I try to control my weight. Suck it up and drive on.

Now as far as other fat people in society, they are costing me and you a lot of money. We pushed people to quit smoking. That became socially unacceptable (to smoke). Now I think it is selfish to create this epidemic that is trying to bankrupt the country and creates a tremendous strain on society. BTW, my mom has type 2 diabetes, Though she was a strong and healthy chubby, she still developed a lifestyle disease that puts a lot of stress on her life. Watch her shoot insulin sometime.

Pocon, I do accept that in the past 10-15 years that the US has undergone a fat revolution. This doesn't change the fact that not every single fat person has made themselves fat. Nothing will change metabolic rates. Nothing. Anyone denying a difference in metabolic rates in people is denying a difference in genetics period.

I do play a lot of videogames and I don't exercise. I'm fat. I didn't say that my fatitude wasn't caused by it. I'm simply saying that before, I used to control what I ate and I was not skinny. Other people do NOT control what they eat and are skinny and do even less exercise than I do. That's hardcore proof that genetics DO play a role in fatness.

-Lasereth

A pound of muscle burns an average of 30-to-50 calories a day, regardless of whether is is being used that particular day. A pound of fat needs less then ten calories a day to maintain itself as fat. More muscle, greater metabolic rate. That is why as people typically get weaker as they get older, their metabolism slows down. Maintain or increase muscle, and your metabolism stays elevated.

Also, metabolic rates obviously changed in the population, otherwise people would not have gotten fatter.

I can't comment on being overweight but with regards to chronic back pain, feel your pain. I had a very bad back injury and i've been rehabing it for close to 20 months. Sorry, but you cannot use this as an excuse. You'll never get better and you will slide farther and farther away from health. I was the same way. I couldn't do anything, even 10 minutes on a stationary bike would be too painful and leave me with extra pain for days. My back hurt 24/7 and I had massive headaches. So i gave up excersise and got depressed. One day i just decided to do something about it. I resumed my physio and posture excersises but nothing would take because of my inactivity. So I started to go for walks at night, very slow and controlled walks where i tried to hold my posture and work the correct muscles. It started to help and I would go for longer walks. I did this every day for two months. Over time my back strenght improved and my pain and headaches went down considerably. I'm still rehabing but I can do things without pain now and my life has improved exponentially. I feel normal again and am having fun living my life again. It sucks and its unbelievably hard but you have take things in your own hands if you want to get better. Sure its an excuse but the your only excusing yourself from becoming happier and healthier.

^^^^^^
See, now that is someone who worked to make a difference in their own life. That I can respect.

I'm overweight(but I'm on a diet and excercise program to correct that and meeting with good results). Most of my family is overweight. Many of them well into morbidly obese. Sorry but while some of this is true about some people can't help being fat unless you have a thyroid problem you can help it. Seriously every person that I know that is overweight are overweight because they either A) Eat too much, B) don't get enough excercise, C) Both. If you are ok with being fat. Fine. But people have no way to distinguish you the person that's "not to blame" for being big with those that are.

And as far as not being able to tell someone's health just by looking at them....well if they weigh 400 lbs or so it's a good bet they either have or will develop serious health issues. Any doctor will tell you this. Even as a general rule even if a person is in generally good health but they are "obese" their doctors will try to get them to lose weight.

Sigh...I understand where the original poster was coming from but I do wonder if it's more of an issue of heightened sensitivity. I was teased and made fun of as a kid and I still don't feel very confident around crowds at times but I came to the realization that I can't change the world but I CAN change myself. If you can't or won't change yourself,for whatever reason, don't expect other people to change to accomodate you.
That's simply is not how this world tends to work. And considering what I know what most people that are overweight endure the "fat comments" on TFP are basically non-existant from what I've seen in my few months here. The worst that I've seen is on the TB and usually most every post saying "too fat" or something is defeated by 10 more saying they like it. Personally I'm one of them.

like other people have already mentioned, i also haven't noticed a weight prejudice here on TFP. but, i don't view every single thread, so that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. and like Halx said, if you are referring to comments and posts made on the titty board, that's a whole 'nother animal. while it's still frowned upon, appearance prejudices might appear more often than normal on the titty board.

i, for one, find larger women very attractive. while i can admire the beauty of a really skinny woman, i am very rarely sexually attracted to them. when i'm with a woman, i like to be able to feel them, and hold them, and not feel bone. like Bono has said, "Big girls are best!"

and if i happen to come across a comment that i feel is prejudice towards anything, i use the report this comment option to let a moderator know that i feel that particular post was not respectful. i encourage more people to do the same. however, i have only had to do this a couple of times.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread.

As a couple people have pointed out, there are posts in this thread that are exactly what this thread is about and bring to bare the topic. As some have said, I should ignore the attitudes, which I will from now on. A few people have made assumptions about me (and overweight people in general) without knowing the first darn thing about me or my situation.

I am not complaining about being fat but about intolerance of people who are. My back pain is from a car accident not my weight, but, of corse my weight exaserbates it and it is an obsticle not an excuse. I said that exercise is my problem and physical activity is hard. I did not say I don't exercise, it has just been assumed, and rather bluntly, that I haven't taken responsibility for or action against my situation and that I am "whining" and looking for pity.

I have lost 50 lbs. in the past year and a couple months, even with my limitations. I do not call that "doing nothing about my problem". I see it as a great victory and being pro-active for my health. As for the calories I put in my mouth, I stated quite clearly that I eat healthily. I don't eat breakfast which isin't great for my metabolism, but for whatever reason, I can't keep food down in the morning (nothing medically wrong). I am not asking for sympathy from anyone.

Sorry Mods, I didn't mean to imply that there are deliberate "insults" from anyone towards another member, that would not be tolerated. It is the random comments like (made-up example), "so my buddies and me were in the bar and this fat chick asked me to dance", that no one seems to blink at that bother me. Of corse I'm sensitive to this because of my situation but not at all overly so. It just bothers me that a human being is reduced to "a fat chick" as if they are not a person but something repugnant and not worthy of respect.

I don't know any of you beyond written words on my screen. And yet those words are representative of human beings that I share this world with and that contribute to my existance. It's akin to someone who is in a wheelchair, missing a leg, reading someone casually saying something about a "gimp". It would not be directly referring to you but would still be derrogatory and callous about your condition (not meaning to imply being overweight is the same as being physically handi-capped at all).

Lastly, while I find the female body beautiful, i do not frequent the Titty Board as some have asked. And Exhibition is the very last place on the TFP that would ever have negative comments about someone's body or weight, and maybe one day I will feel secure enough to post there. I probably should have thought more before talking about posting there as it is mature and respectful members that seem to have access (or quite possibly, only they are tolerated!).

Again, thanks to everyone who contributed to this discussion.

Ali

Edit: I forgot to say; most of the incidences of "fat" comments are (like stated above) certainly not worthy of reporting to the Mods. However, I couldn't help but say something about the accumulation of comments I see that still botherd me...

I noticed it too. That's really the only reason I commented in this thread. You never asked for sympathy or whined about not being able to lose weight -- you simply wanted to know why others can't accept it. It's interesting to see how many people took the thread into "fat people are lazy" mode.

-Lasereth

People are just lazy when giving descriptions and if someone's obese, of course it's the first thing you notice about them. If she had no teeth, would saying a "toothless chick asked me to dance" be just as derogatory? Or if she was tall, would it be wrong to say that she's a tall chick?

Im sorry, but you DON'T eat "healthily". Eating healthily means EATING breakfast, it means EATING at a calorie deficit (if you want to lose weight), it means EATING 5-6 times a day, it means EATING a lot of protein and good fats and good carbs. You're not doing that, you're eating 1 meal a day made up of veggies and thinking thats healthy, and as a result your body has reacted negatively. If you continue to lose weight, you will be losing muscle and your body will feel and look worse.

Im overweight, I dont give a shit what anybody thinks......never have. I feel no need to explain to those kinds of people that mine is a hormone problem, its really no bodies business but mine and my doctors what the problem is, but I do agree that I have read a many posts like what alicat mentioned.

I chalk it up to intolerance and ignore it because I have no desire to associate with that kind of stuff. I myself dont really care for skinny guys...but if I meet one I dont discount him because of that, and I dont say....ooohh you look unhealthy to me go eat a sandwhich or two....I only discount people for their personalities :)

Alicat, congrats on what you've accomplished so far.....as long as you're happy thats what is important :icare:

Perhaps it might be the case that I am not overly concerned about your acceptance of me in the first place? Certainly, my own feeling would be that anyone who would be judgemental to the extent of "not accepting" someone who is overweight would probably be rather superficial, and would not be someone I would be especially interested in relating to, and would also be rather unlikely to offer an insight or perception of life that I would find interesting.

Fundamentally, you are correct that people are overweight because they consume more calories than they burn - but there can be medical, social, and environmental causes. And perhaps some people dont choose to conform to your view of what they should be. if someone is healthy and happy, then it really doesnt matter if they are considered overweight. if they are unhealthy and/or unhappy - then of course your negative comments can be damaging to some people.

For myself, I dont really think that you should be prevented from saying it, but my opinion is that the fact of your statement reflects far more badly on you than the argument you make reflects badly on me,

I think what the poster who started the thread is true to some extent. Comments about overweight people can be made - in society, not especially here - and are seen as more acceptable as a negative comment about sexuality, ethnicity, or gender would be.

Yes, but being overweight is not healthy.

i haven't seen very much of this kind of attitude here--for many years, i was about 150-200 lbs. overweight--i lost much of it along the way (somehow--i think stopping drinking and cutting out all processed foods account for most of it in my case--but i was fortunate in that my genetic predisposition to put on weight was not correlated with a metabolism that made loosing it difficult to impossible--but i only discovered this along the way--i thought for years that my weight simply was as it was--so my situation is particular)---i remain quite sensitive about this kind of discrimination based on conventional body-image notions.
i would run into it all the time, in contexts where it was not really spoken aloud, like clothing stores where i could not find anything that fit---in "large size" clothing outlets where the operative assumption seemed to be that if you were this size, you did not need clothing that was designed well or that was made from good fabric---
so i carry what is i guess a hyperawareness of this kind of thing around with me---and i would react to it if i saw it here.

so are a lot of things. everyone of us here has vices...show some respect. she never asked for advice, sympathy, or anything like that. she asked for respect. and i think we're all capable of that, right?

I had personally not been aware of many derogatory posts about fat, obese, or overweight people. There have been comments describing some overweight people who are lazy and it seems to be a contributor to their lack of good health. I have not seem personal attacks on those members who are overweight. My own hubby isn't his perfect weight. He and I have both posted in the Exhibition Forum and I don't recall either of us receiving putdowns or negative comments at all. From they way I understand it - derogatory comments in that forum at least are usually removed by the mods.

Go ahead and post - something simple. We'll be glad to say "hi". Promise - I won't complain.

I have seem some people who are/have been overweight who do nothing to loose it or do all the wrong things. For example my mother continues to gain weight. She says she goes for walks every day but in reality she goes for a very slow, short walk perhaps once a week. She always says she's on a diet. She's said that for almost as long as I can remember. She'll deny herself all day long and then pig out on chocolate, or icecream at the end of the day. She eats junk when she thinks no one is watching. She also had high blood pressure and arthritis at this point but refuses to take any meds saying that when she looses weight things will get better. All the while she's making things worse because she's either so tired or her joints hurt to much to be active. She could change her way of thinking and her lifestyle but she stubbornly refuses to accept any help even from blood pressure meds (the Dr's have been telling her to take it for 2 years).

Then there's 2 other people that I know of who have some medical problems. One of which has a muscle disease that causes the muscles to atrophy. Without muscle tone they cannot burn much fat. In order for them to create a calorie deficit they were almost nearly have to take only suppliments and starve themselves of real food. I've seen how they eat and I know what they keep in their cupboards. They eat fresh salads for breakfast lunch and supper and an occasionally broiled chicken breast. There's almost nothing they can do at this point. Another person who has to take a certain medication that as a side effect slows their metabolism. Their calorie deficit dispite their muscle tone would have to be so great they they also would nearly have to eat celery for breakfast lunch and supper to loose any weight.

Some people can and some can't. The people who whine (like my mom) about their weight gain but refuse any help and refuse to change their lifestyle to loose any weight - those are the portion of the overweight population that irritate me.

I have to admit that I personally haven't seen any posts regarding abuse of the obese (that sounds quite poetic I might add)

I think that if you are looking out for something that you are conscious of, then you will always find it. I personally hate all the scumbag kids that live in my town and the surrounding areas ~(we refer to them as chavs or pikeys) and as I can't stand them, I always notice them and what they're doing.

You shouldn't worry about what you weigh unless it is affecting your health, judging by your post you are well educated and opinionated and that my friend is all that counts.

This thread bothers me. Generally, on the Exhibition board, I notice that people are overly nice about looks. Even if the subject is overweight, people comment on how beautiful he/she is. I reall youy haven't seen any rude comments on weight around the TFP, except for a couple threads made by young, immature guys that are really insensitive.

I think I'll take this thread from a completely different angle from someone else--alcoholism.

I personally, am an alcoholic. I say this in all seriousness, and there are a few members that followed my journal closely last year as I spiraled down into the depths of drinking to the point of drunkeness or alcohol poisoning 7 days a week. I drank to the extent that my body phyiscally could not heal itself at a reasonable rate, and there are scars from injuries that would have healed in a couple of days when I was younger (and I'm only 21). Recently, I've been getting some serious alcohol abuse counseling, and I'm turning alot of my life around. Been completely dry for 20 days at this point, and every day is a different type of struggle from the last.

That background is meant to emphasize two points: genetic/behaviorial predisposition and a common acceptance of derogatory terms for unmentionable classes of people.

First off, I have two great-uncles that physically drank themselves to death on my dad's side, a grandfather that died in august that drank every day for the better part of 50 years, two alcoholic uncles on my mom's side. Both sides of my family have a genetic predisposition to alcoholism and growing up around people that drank all the time made social drunkenness acceptable in my mind because I was used to seeing it--providing me a behaviorial predisposition to drunkenness to go with the genetic. I don't hide behind either one of those reasons for my drinking. I drank because it numbed the world and thus allowed me to get through each day. I hated various aspects of my life from the tanked relationship I lost with a girl I almost got engaged to, all the way to my dad's dad dying of cancer in august. My whole world came crashing down around my ears, and I drank. But I sought help, and it's altered my behavior to the point where I can look at the fridge full of my roommate's beer and not even want one. I can walk through my favorite bars across the street from campus and spend four hours drinking sodas while all my old drinking buddies get drunk and my friends that bartend talk to me. And I'm slowly getting healthier, my body is responding in a positive fashion, and I'm growing less irritable as withdrawal leaves. But it took professional help, and it hasn't been easier. So even a genetic component to a lifestyle can be combatted with the proper assistance.

On to the second portion--the latent prejudice and attitudes towards socially undesirable classes. No one's proud of their alcoholic uncle. No one's proud of the cousin that drinks himself under the table 6 nights a week. No one likes living with a roommate that only comes home to pass out after getting roaring drunk. At the same time, there's a misperception in society about what constitutes alcoholism. My roommate knows I'm in abuse counseling, and his insensitive ass constantly refers to himself as an alcoholic when he's anything but. Just because he gets wasted at the parties we go to, or drinks soically when we have people over, he thinks it's hilarious to call himself an alcoholic. And it fucking pisses me off. Those of us who do have a disease to fight don't exactly enjoy people who make light of it. To me, it's like someone running through a cancer ward cracking jokes about melanoma because they got a tan at the beach. It's something people have become socially desensitized because alcoholics aren't something that people publically acknowledge in a positive light--and therefore, it's ok to make fun of them. At the same time no one I've ever met says "Hey, I've got this morbidly obese friend of mine I'd like to introduce you to, I think y'all would look great together!" Here in my dorm, the term is DUFF--Designated Ugly/Fat Friend--when a cute girl comes by with a friend that's not as attractive physically. And everyone thinks it's ok to do it. My buddy Ben has an asian friend named Anna that is a larger girl but still beautiful--my roommate (who is 5'7" 365lbs himself) calls her "Fasian" for 'Fat Asian." I think having an extremely obese person in our dorm that will call girls fat unconsciously reinforces to the rest of us that it's ok to act in a negative manner to large women.

You really have the right attitude and are an example for all. The thing I remember most about seeing your pictures here on the TFP are nothing at all weight related. I remember thinking what an awesome personality you had and how that was very apparent in even photographs!!

I think everyone here is generally pretty understanding of other people's situations. Whenever I catch someone saying something really inappropriate on whatever level, they are dealt with.

I think that anyone who feels that they are being singled out, by weight, or looks, or race, or whatever needs to let us know what is going on. Sometimes if it is not an issue that we (MODS) are personally involved in, we might overlook it.

The bottom line is no one should feel uncomfortable here.

rat,

That was an eloquent and eye-opening post especially your last paragraph. Thank you for pointing out another perspective that is oft-missed. Made me think.

Good luck with your personal struggle.

...including yourself.


meaning, if a person accepts the things he/she doesn't like about him/herself, changing that thing can become nearly impossible. like my alcholic mother who doesn't see her alcoholism as a problem. hence, she makes no effort to fix it, despite all of our effort.

I know I could lose a few pounds, and I have gone up & down for years. I could cry me a river over not being 'perfect'...but who is. I accept I need to push a little bit every day to better myself, and if I succeed, kudos to me, and if things don't go as I planned, tomorrows another day. I'm still a beautiful loving person. And I have lost weight many times for the wrong reasons. Now I work on it for me, and although its slower going than more drastic approaches I've tried before, I now feel comfortable in my own skin.

demeter, i wasn't really referring to you specifically, but a more general you meaning everyone. sorry if it sounded that way.

i agree, a person does have to want to change themselves for the right reasons. in the end that will probably facilitate the positive change that much easier.

Cowman: Are you a nutritionist? Your post sounds to me like an amalgam of every diet book on the market currently. Who said I only eat veggies? I said that we eat alot of tomatoes, garlic and olive oil, not that that's all we eat. They are accompaniments to lean meats like Talapia, ground Sirloin, shrimp, chicken or turkey breast. We prefer Italian or "mediterranean" dishes, of which the aforementioned ingredients play a big part in.

I did not say I eat one meal a day, I said I eat 1 1/2 meals a day, which was a slip on my part. My family has always called lunch a "half" meal because breakfast and dinner were the main meals of the day. You load up in the morning, sate your appetite midday and then satisfy your hunger in the evening. Can you tell me what the sense is in eating breakfast only to ralph it up 15 minutes later? No nutrients are being absorbed and I have to deal with being sick every morning. No thank you, I gave up on breakfast when this started a couple of years ago (and I love the "typical" breakfast foods, whether it's bacon, oatmeal, cereal, bagels, eggs, yogurt, etc.). Do you know something my doctor doesn't that would allow me to keep food down in the morning? I can't eat breakfast but I eat lunch (the 1/2 meal but for me is a full meal) and dinner.

My hubby has the same thing happen to him if he eats later than 9 at night and he is as thin as a rail and healthy. I've had tests, all normal. I know what a calorie deficit is. I use a computer program everyday to track my fat intake, calorie intake, calories burned, etc.... I have been excercising (as previously stated) to the best of my ability and I think losing 50 lbs. in a healthy amount of time is an accomplishment. I know that muscle burns more calories than fat, and no, I am not losing, but gaining muscle. Why are you so eager to point a finger at me without knowing anything factual and not paying attention to what I've said?

Shani: Thank you for your perspective, I've been working long and hard to gain the same. I used to be thin and considered beautiful and to have a "kick ass" body. That was quite a few years ago and if my hubby loves me the way I am, then I am happy. To be frankly honest though, I don't think fat is attractive. Neither do I think "Hollywood" thin is attractive. Someone like Marylin Monroe or (the old "Titanic") Kate Winslet are the ideal to me. Not thin and not too overweight. I have never been the subject of public descrimination for which I should be (I was thinking "grateful", but why should I feel grateful because of common courtesy?) content with?!. I truely hope I can get to the place you are one day where inconsiderate peoples comments (who shouldn't matter) don't matter. You rule girl!!!

Rat: I don't know what to say but, wow, and thank you for sharing! I too have had close family members die from alcoholism, although thankfully I haven't succombed to the disease myself. I find myself chasened that this is another sect of society that is prejudiced against that I hadn't thought about and should have. I looked it up and approximately 45% of people in the U.S. meet the criteria for alcoholism (shocking really!). Given that some 60+% suffer from obesity, I was surprised that alcoholism isin't much farther down the charts as far as reasons for death in the U.S..

Please, if anyone is going to post something accusitory towards me, read the entire thread (or at least my posts) and absorb what I've said (between the lines if need be) before calling me on something I've already addressed. I would appreciate it.

Ali

Addendum: want to add something that may not be clear in my first post. I don't make any excuses for the reasons I drank--be they my surroundings or genetics. Whether one is predisposed to drink or not, it's their personal decision to pick up the bottle, and their personal choice to find the bottom of it. I take full responsibility for my previous habits, and it took a lot to get to that point. I could come up with any of a dozen reasons to drink from "Happy Monday!" to "She left me"--the point was finding reasons not to drink. Hell, they were excuses to drink, not reasons to. I drank to remember, I drank to forget. I drank to memories and I drank from memories. The point was simply that I prefered to drink myself to idiocy rather than deal with my problems like a man--which lead to self-loathing and a greater tendency to drink rather than fix things. I am an alcoholic, I have been physically depenedent on alcohol, and I have chosen to eliminate the behavior that those two things inspire. And trust me, no matter how many times you hear it, you'll never understand it unless you've gone through it--withdrawal is a bitch. When your body becomes physically depenedent on a substance, it's tougher than hell to get off of. But it's usually worth your time to do so (unless it's sustenance or water :p)

When you work in the fast food industry and see morbidly obese individuals guzzle down large cups of coke day after day, it's hard not to stereotype and as a result, be prejudiced.

i havent really seen anyone say bad stuff about over weight people here...i for one respect a 100 pound person as much as a 300 pound person as long as they respect themselves and the people around them... i truly believe that beauty comes from the inside and that the thinnest girl/guy with perfect bone structure could be the most ugly person ever... oh and personally i think shani faye is stunning in every way :)

revision of an earlier post:

i had not seen prejudice relative to weight on tfp until i started reading through this thread.

obviously not from everyone--but in some cases above, it is there.

:( there are a few morons in every bunch i suppose..even one as wonderful as the tfp

Everyone's prejudiced in at least some respects, no matter how hard they try to fight it. I guess we're all morons.

I am intolerant about overweight girls. It's just who I am. I'm a skinny guy, and I like how skinny girls look. I'm not the only one who finds skinny girls attractive either. A large portion of society views obesity as an undesirable trait. It's also one that is immediately apparant during first impressions. It's a trait I can weed out easily and quickly when looking for a significant other. Since it is an immediate and visual characteristic, it's often used to describe someone. "the fat chick". Other traits, like ambition, honesty, moral strength, caring, or empathy, are harder to uncover and they take time.

People that discriminate based on physical characteristics are often stereotyped as "shallow". But we all do so to different degrees. We have an ideal physical image of the perfect girl (or guy) in our minds. The closer they are to that ideal, the more attractive they are to us. We go after the ideal. Why would you talk to the overweight girl, hoping her personality is good (this is for those who find obesity unattractive. If you like the cushin, by all means, go for it) when the skinny girl you're attracted to is sitting just across from her, and has the same/better chance of having a great personality as well?

And you know what? You could be the most fantastic person in the world, and if I talked to you it would be quickly apparant that your wonderful personality shines like a beacon of awesomeness. We could be GREAT friends, and I wouldn't even care in the least bit about your weight. But. I still wouldn't find you physically attractive, and we would never have more than a friendship. That's just who I am, and it would be stupid to fake interest because i'm worried about what other people may think of me.


In general terms however, while I see obesity as a negative trait, there are SO many things more important about a person than their weight. It's a drop in the pond. The only real importance that weight has on how I judge a person is what it might imply about their character- the lazy, self-indulgent stereotype. Which you can usually figure out the veractiy of in 5 minutes of chat. Which really does nothing for the first impression, but if you're a good person, i'll forget all about it.

Martinguerre makes a fantastic point . . .

Why did everyone jump in on this thread and make assumptions . . . it's none of your business! All this member was asking for was for every tfp member to rememeber to be respectful in our comments . . . a worthy thing to ask for.

All ppl are beautiful. All sizes, shapes, colors . . . i give respect to EVERYONE . . .
Respect should be given on tfp . . . WHATEVER their choices are . . . WHATEVER their lifestyles . . . WHATEVER their beliefs . . . We;re here to have a meeting of the minds . . . not judge.

Let's all just remember to be respectful . . . as i know we all are trying our best to be . . . being respectful is what makes this such a great community :icare:

Sweetpea

hmm.. Interesting..... while yes, fat is the last accepted predjuice - proof to the fact, 100 kindergarden children were asked if they would rather be fat and smart or or skinny and stupid, and they all picked skinny and stupid. KINDERGARDEN!!!

Personally... I look down and could certainly use to lose a few. I personally never have seen overly predjucial comments about fat people here..

I have heard people describe and talk about "fat messes" and it's my opinion that they arent referrring to the people that carry some extra pounds. More referring to the Fat messes that sit around and do nothing, eat their live away on the couch, all the while complaining about how overweight they are while they walk around the streets in their spandex thinking it makes them look thinner.

so, if you carry some extra pounds, or its a medical complication, fine! I agree people will judge by what they see, not knowing you may have a medical issue, and that IS a problem that will never go away. I don't think you are a "fat mess" if you try. Its great that you try to eat healthy, and do the right thing, if a medical problem prohibits you from losing weight, do something else. I have bad knees, so I do alot of abdominal and arm training. Good luck.

Another example.

If you are fat, you need "forgiving". If you are skinny, you do not.

ahahahaha Lebell...the person I need forgivness for, for being overweight is NOT somebody I want to know :lol:

Welp, I'm like Karl Marx. Yes! I admit it! I believe the value of a person is in their work. If you work, you are valuable, to me. If you do not work, then you are worthless to me. Building on Lebell's last post: in my book, people who do not work need to be forgiven IF they have a legitimate reason for not working. By the way, I am about 40lbs over weight. A few months ago I was 50lbs over weight. What's my point? IF you can change something you don't like about yourself, then do it. If you can't, then you can't, and that is that. However, judgment of other people is a human defense mechanism; you can't just automatically trust everyone. I'll stop now.

well, duh. Would you want to get to know people that are lazy and self-indulgent on a more personal level? This is the "fat" stereotype. Without catagorizing people based on their characteristics, we couldn't function in society. Every decision would be agonizingly long and presumably useless by the time the decision was finally made. It's the same reason we discriminate if someone is dressed slobbily, or has lots of piercings/tattoos. It's the image that society has constructed for you, and no matter your opinion on it, it's just something you have to live with.

On the opposite side of the spectrum, I'm sure lots of people when they see a morbidly skinny guy make judgements on his character because of it. (like nerdy, unconfident, etc.)

Advice from Sly and the Family Stone :)

I agree that as humans, we make automatic assumtions based on our first impressions of people, that does not make them correct though.

Skier: You said a large percentage of society views being overweight as "undesirable". That doesn't mesh with the numbers. Given that nearly two-thirds of the U.S. is overweight, I'm curious, are you saying that most (or close to, two-thirds) of the people in the U.S. find themselves and the majority of other people "undesirable"?

I agree physical attractiveness is important, and is usually the first thing that brings two people together (um, "attract"). However, as you said:

Do you realize how silly (IMHO) this sounds? You're basically saying that you judge a person on how they look first and everything else that makes up a person comes second.


Again, as I said before in this thread, I am the last person to command you to find fat attractive. I don't know if I'd want you for a friend (the only role I'd qualify for, to you) though, if you saw me as less of a human being simply because I have some extra padding.

Sooo... I might have a wonderful personality, in which case, you wouldn't care about my weight. Which, I think might be agreed upon, you meant as long as I'm overweight, then my weight would become a problem. And since I'm overweight, I probably meet the stereotype of a lazy person (nevermind everything I've said about myself in this thread to the contrary). I am neither lazy nor self-indulgent (far from it, I put almost everyone else before myself as a lot of women do).

I realize that stereotypes exist because they have some basis in reality. But perhaps some of the problems in today's societie's exist because we may have put too much merit into them? A thought.

Ali

Amen. I like reading I like playing on the computer. I enjoy listening to music. Too bad those things don't burn calories, but that is the way it is.

I am not looking for sympathy, but I don't expect to be condemned because my life choices don't happened to match yours.

No, i'm not saying that. I said "a large portion". I didn't say "nearly all" or even "majority". I can't back up that statement with a hard statistic. It's a statement based on my observations on people's behavior over my lifetime; that a lot of people find skinner people attractive, even if they themselves are obese.

I think you've confused importance with chronological order.
This was the context it was in, and I further explained how important I felt obesity was with my last paragraph-
"there are SO many things more important about a person than their weight. It's a drop in the pond."
I do judge people on how they look first. So does everyone else. I don't put much weight in that judgement because they are just physical characteristics- and I imagine most people think the same. And afterwards, I usually get a chance to talk to them and find out the important characteristics of the person.

Come on, this is totally inflammatory. The issue we're talking about here is how obesity affects predjudices and what impression it gives to others- my argument is focused on that (small) aspect. Please don't think that this is an overriding philosophy that dictates my every action and whim. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

again. It's not a problem. Gross obesity is just an aspect of the body that I would find undesirable in a mate.

That's great for you. My post wasn't aimed at you, but ok. Also, narcissism and self-indulgence are not the same thing. You can be very selfless and still self-indulge. This isn't really relevant to the topic though.

I'm just curious as to how you would make quick judgements about people and situations when you've not had a chance to talk to everyone and figure out what kind of people they are. We need to put weight and merit into stereotypes (catagories) to provide the best solution to problems in which we lack information.

I'd just like to add something new as well. When I say "fat" or "skinny" where is the line between these two sides of the spectrum? 30lbs. overweight? 40? 60? 80? 160? Just as extreme skinniness is unattractive to most people (mmm ribcage...) the point at which obesity becomes unattractive differs from person to person.

I paid attention to what you said, but you continue to backpeddle and try and change your original statements to "defend" yourself.

Personally, I don't care. This argument means nothing to me, because YOU are the one who is overweight and has problems. This example of you trying to justify eating 1 and "1 half" meals a day (or was it 2 meals a day, or 5? I don't know, I really can't understand because you continue to try and change what you've already said) is probably indicative of what you do to yourself: you try and justifiy your eating habits as healthy, when in reality they obviously arn't( based on A) how you've said you eat and B) what you've said your current health status is ).

As for the whole "weight prejudice on TFP"..well..I can respect someone's opinions and thoughts and still call that person fat. There's nothing malicious about saying "you're fat"; its a reality. It's like saying, you have 5 fingers. If you're fat you're fat, that's life and if you don't want to be called fat then stop making excuses and lose said fat.

I was fat once, and it bothered me a lot. I was made fun of and had a really tough time. But the problem was MINE, not other peoples.

Ali-

I'm not really sure what your beef is? First of all, not everyone who is overweight has either physical OR emotional problems? I used to be overweight, and was so simply because I loved food and was too lazy to do much. I joined the army and got in shape. *shrug*

Next, having previously been overweight, having been a nerd or geek growing up, and generally just not following the status quo, I have to give the typical advice. Words, whether written or spoken, can't hurt you unless you let them. If someone says you're fat, and you assume they are shallow, who cares? If someone says you're fat, and they're just a dick... who cares? Why would you care what these people think? If someone called me a stupid asshole fucktard, it doesn't even phase me. What weight do words like that actually hold?

Lastly, everyone is entitled to their own opinion... "acceptable" or not. Political correctness is SO much a socialist endeavor. If I don't like black jewish gays, and I want to have a black jewish gay hate club, the United States of America is the one place, if any, in the world I should be allowed to have such a thing (I don't really hate them... the 2 that there may be that actually exist). Why is there such a serious concern with what other people say or think? If someone physically assaulted you because you were overweight, that would be over the line. If someone calls you a name... or even still, calls someone ELSE a name, getting offended is just a personal weakness.

Sorry to go on a rant, but I just find posts like too much of a soapbox.

On a side note, my wife is relatively thin. My son's mom was also relatively thin. My ex-girlfriend was a little bit bigger (size 14, not huge). Her "weight" didn't make a difference. the biggest thing that was a problem for our relationship was her poor self image. Maybe THAT'S something that turns guys off about overweight women. I don't know if this holds true in your case as I don't know you at all... but sometimes there's more to a stereotype than meets the eye.

Also, anyone with any psychology education knows that it's human nature to group, judge and react. It's how we operate. Even the Ghandi among us judge... he just happened to judge postively on everyone. You yourself are judging someone to be shallow because they don't find overweight females attractive. Frankly, I think chubby girls can be fantastically cute. I also think that overweight guys are generally exceptionally unattractive. Maybe that's because I was in that boat once and hated it. My judgement is clouded by my own previous shortcomings. If I, instead, thought girls over a size 2 were disgusting, due to my own internal struggles with previous weight gain, would I still be shallow?

Ali,

I feel for you. I have seen much of what you are mentioning here in the media and from freinds and co-workers. I was genuinly surprised that you mentioned it about the TFP.. but that could be cause I missed it entirely. and that is just as sad.

Here is my experience:

One day a Lady at work (who was sort of thin but had gained a bit of weight recently) told all fo her co-workers that she was tired of being ugly and she was going on a diet. At the moment that she said it I witnessed two of our heavier co-workers get up and leave. One was shaking her head and the other in tears. My freind had inappropriately expressed what was actually an innocent " I need to lose weight" comment.

Having looked around I can see that we have done the same here... comments like "Oooh look at that flat belly"... or "look at those long slender legs...mmmm" . What was meant as a word of admiration can actually be hurtful to someone who isn't like that. the pain is genuine

Let me say that I don;t like judgeing people for what they look like. when I read your posting I was moved to tears because I realised that we had made it harder for you to see the beautiful person that you are.

I hope you accept my humble apology


RCA

Ali et al,

I read this post the whole way through, and then took a little time to think about it. I've been heavier, I've been lighter, I've got family with weight problems, etc. I'm not going to address a lot of the health-related issues, or really even the discussion of skier and company on the role/necessity of stereotypes in social interactions - although I think it's an interesting topic. Maybe later. What I will say is this:

I really hate the fact that you have taken offense at comments posted here on the forum. While I agree that ultimately one's emotional state and sensitivity to one's environment is, technically, within that individual's control (I'm not arguing this here - maybe elsewhere - it's just my personal belief); I always hate to see people's feelings get hurt, and I think that's the root situation here. It seems that the comments you have taken offense to are rarely directly aimed at specific people, but are the results of ingrained perceptions, etc. Without arguing the merits of these perceptions, I would only like to say that I'm pretty sure I don't want to live in a world where no one is offended. I think it would stifle too much freedom of thought and speech, and would cut down way too much on the amount of levity we have in expressing ourselves - whether in anger, indignation, or humor. No matter what a person says, it's probably going to offend someone. I don't think it's possible to have a forum with any true amount of diversity and expect that you (general you) will not be offended by some of the comments, whether it be concerning politics, religion, or the type of situation at hand involving questions of social perception.

As far as my own perception of overweight people, the only perception I think I truly form when I meet them is the following : if a pack of wild, ravenous hyenas comes racing down the hall, I might just be ok, via the "I don't have to be the fastest guy on the planet, just faster than that guy" theory. No offense to anyone, but them's the facts. Other than that, I really don't think I give a flip.

I would say that it's not about weight, it's about HEALTH.
There was a study done, and I totally wish I remember who did it, but it was quoted in my health class. They found that "fat," fit people lived longer than "skinny," unfit people. Fitness was measure by resting heart rate, oxygen consumption, etc.
I'm slightly overweight, but my bigger problem is my poor health. I have asthma, so my cardio vascular health sucks, and I could definitely use some muscular work. I'm a lot more concerned about that than the ten pounds I could loss.
And I'd like to admit that I definitely have a prejudice about obese people, particularly morbidly obese people. I fight it when i notice it, but I can hear it whispering to me even now.

Wait just a second here RCAlyra2004.

You're telling me if I were to say "Those are nice XXXX" in reference to a picture of a thin woman, it's hurtfult to someone who does not have those qualities I'm referring to?

Well, screw that sideways.
(The rest of my post NOT even remotely directed to you, RCAlyra2004)

If my expression of what I find attrative offends someone, who is not my idea of attractive, they need to take their fucked up emotional baggage and go somewhere with it.

I'm not an in shape guy. I have some extra pounds.
I'm comfortable with that.
When my wife opines that Vin Deisel is hot, I don't go off and cry in the corner BECUASE I DON'T HAVE A FUCKED UP SELF-IMAGE.

My opinion on this whole mess of a thread:

I don't see anyone calling "fatass" on the board, so I think the original poster is expressing more internal emotional issues than fact. Quote, or link me to, ONE post on the board where a member posted negatively about a pic of another member and didn't get some form of repremand to show me wrong. SHOW ME one post in Exhibition where "YOU FAT SLOB" was posted and left to stay. I have never seen that kind of behavior tolerated here.

Heathly eating habits are just that. You have them, and aren't obese, or you DON'T have them and are. I don't give a shit what you eat. I have mediocre eating habits and a non-active lifestyle. I have at least 20lbs I could lose, and my blood pressure is high. I need to work out more, and eat better. But you know what? I'm not taking my insecurities out on women who think Brad Pitt is hot.

I don't give one second's thought to anyone who is so emotionally weak that my comment, on what *I* consider is attractive, cripples their emotional state. (or maybe I do, since I posted; but, I have personal reasons to respond, so maybe not. I'll have to think about why I did.)

You think you see "lookism" or some shit on the TFP? Fine, you think so.
Did you also notice you live in the USA? One of the most fucked up societies when it comes to the ideals of beauty, compounded with a screwed up food culture? WE ALL have issues about food and weight, you ain't the first, and you won't be the last.

If I meet a fat girl, I either am, or am not, attracted to her. Some skinny girls, I see nothing attractive. Some fat girls, I see nothing attractive. SOME fat girls I see, and am attracted. SOME skinny girls I see, and am attracted. Either way, I don't much care if you can't handle what *I* like, and what I don't.

Nor do I grant anyone the right to control what I can express about such things.

I'd never say to someone "Boy, you're just a big fat fuck, aren't you?" because it's not my place to judge. People are how they are, and they have a right to be that way. It's not mine to judge, control, or decide someone's life for them.

You want to be HOWEVER you are? That's fine with me, unless you've decided to be a murderer and you're after me with an axe. But do me a favor, be COMFORTABLE with how you are and spare me the whole "I am comfortable, but whine whine whine" bit.

billeage-

More or less my feelings exactly. Sadly, living in the USA is also where this political correctness crap has really settled in mainstream. Fat people, ugly people, thing people, beautiful people, everyone thinks they have some right to be perfect in EVERYONE's eyes, or at least that anyone who doesn't feel that way should never even look in their general direction. It's called freedom of thought and freedom of speech people. Seriously, these rules have worked for the past 200+ years in this country, why the hell are we reneging on them now?

There was a story (if I can find it, I'll link it) a while back where a teacher got suspended and I believe fired for using the word "niggardly" in class.

Main Entry: nig·gard·ly
Pronunciation: -lE
Function: adjective
1 : grudgingly mean about spending or granting : BEGRUDGING
2 : provided in meanly limited supply
synonym see STINGY
- nig·gard·li·ness noun
- niggardly adverb

This word has nothing offensive about it, but a black student was offended because in his ignorance he believed the word had to do with "nigger". Even though this is OBVIOUSLY not the case, the school sided with the student to "be safe". W-T-F?

If words bother you that much, too damned bad. As I said before, get over yourself!

Health, as measured by max vo2, heartrate, etc... is very important. However, obesity is strongly corellated with poor health measurements. There are of course exceptions to every rule, but don't hold up one fat person and say "this is the truth". The truth is, if you are fat you are more likely to be unhealthy and therefore a detriment to society. You cost medical insurance more money, you are sick more often, you work fewer hours and are less productive at work, You die younger and place a greater burden on your family, the list goes on.
Society has the ability to place curbs on behaviors that are unacceptable and detrimental to its wishes.

I really get angry when people make fun of other people who are "fat". You can't even define fat in today's society. If they don't look fit and have a little chubbiness to them, they consider them fat? It really pisses me off when my friends are made fun of because of their weight. My friends play it off or joke around it, but they aren't standing up for themselves.
I, myself. have a very high metabolism. And when I mean high, I mean high. I've been wanting to gain weight forever, but it has never happened...yet.

oh yeah, if you eat a normally and healthy diet (3 meals a day), your metabolic rate rises. so eat more, but healthy foods!

pocon1, i think this is a potentially very dangerous idea to encourage...who does the deciding? i say live and let live, just don't expect me to follow in your footsteps unless they make sense.

/oh crap, i almost slipped on a godwin.

I guess I should say an educated society. A society full of ignorant people or religious zealots will tend to trample on anyone who is different. The more I read the paper, the harder it becomes to imagine an educated society exists anywhere. But the fact is, everyone knows that fat is heavily associated with most lifestyle diseases (note lifestyle).
As far as my point of view, I am a personal trainer. So you only find encouragement from me to improve your own quality of life. But the people who I work with want to change or improve. The people I have less empathy for are the ones who don't care to improve or make excuses. I have seen hundreds of people improve the quality of their lives and make progress in their health with exercise and better diet. The population of our facility is pretty old, and these people are still making progress or maintaining. My oldest client, Jerry, is 81. I have worked with him for eight years. Yes, I have seen his abilities lessen, but he still comes in and does what he can. He will tell me what is going on, but he does not ask for pity. He needs help, and I offer what I can. That earns my respect.

pocon,

I'll agree with your point of view, or what I see to be it's essence, 100%. I don't see any way to deny the fact that you're going to be statistically better off living a healthy lifestyle, and for the vast majority of people this is going to naturally result in thinner bodies with less fat and more muscle. If someone wants to neglect their bodies, I'm not going to force them to stay healthy, but I will never understand that lifestyle choice. your body is a temple and all that. frankly, i also have no problem with people like yourself expressing their views - as I believe people will find they are happier when they are in better shape, for a whole slew of reasons, if person x decides to get in shape because of people like yourself encouraging them to do so, then I say fan-fucking-tastic. I'm a little more skeptical of issues like government-enforced lifestyle change. I would also add that in this educated society / utopia you speak of, that the society would have to fully endorse healthy lifestyles. That would entail giving people the time to exercise in addition to their jobs and family committments - much like I feel that in this society if we are going to live in dual-income homes with both parents working, this society should embrace the concept that both parents shouldn't have to work current full time hours in order to pay the bills / have some entertainment and spending money, but that's another issue.

The facts is the facts, and I see no point in discussing them other than their presentation for this discussion. What I am concerned about is the possible marginalization of people who make "undesirable" lifestyle choices. I think that it's very easy to run into the essence of the "glass houses and stones" adage.

/ps. hope i'm still burning when i'm 81.

We're going round in circles here. It keeps coming back to this question of how and why one should lose weight. It's funny isn't it, how the prejudice is turned 180 degrees to suggest that your concern for my wellbeing and happiness fuels your comments on how I choose to live my life, and as such, is no longer recognised as a prejudice? You know what? You're still prejudiced.

Who's to say I would be happier being on a regimented diet, and a routine of exercise? Maybe I hate feeling chained to something, and prefer to eat when my body tells me I need to eat, according to my tastes, and what I 'fancy' at the time. Maybe health is about more than just statistics and calorie-defecits. Maybe it's about feeling happy. Personally, I'd rather live happy and die when it's coming to me, than live a life of servitude to an image of health, a diet, an exercise 'routine' and be miserable as a result. To me, the idea of tracking the fat and calories I take in on a daily basis is a horrible idea. Not that I'm bashing Ali's right to do it. I just know if I tried it, it would act against my happiness, not for it.

Believe it or not, not everyone stereotypes on the physical level. I'm not arguing with the fact that stereotypes truly exist, but I think you assume too much if you think the first thing I look at is weight.

I operate on the asshole stereotype. Here's how it works. Everyone I meet, I assume from the get-go that they're an asshole. They have as long as we talk for to convince me otherwise.

flamingdog - i have a question for you, but first allow me to preface my question by saying that I don't personally care too much if you choose to lose weight and / or live a healthy lifestyle. I would prefer it, but i would also prefer a lot of things. My question is whether you, or anyone that you are close to, has ever suffered from a chronic disease / chronic pain which can be linked to poor general health? You may not like the idea of being chained to a diet, but I'm guessing you wouldn't like to be chained to an insulin syringe, either. Or an oxygen mask, or a handful of pills. I think that people can pretty much eat what they want, if they exercise portion control, exercise regularly, and give their bodies time to adjust.

Once again, while I would prefer that you and everyone else made themselves as robust, healthy, flexible and so forth as possible, it's really not a priority of mine, and I never try to force anyone to do anything, unless it has a direct affect on my life.

Happy early St. Pat's

Yes, I suffer from osteo-arthritis. My mobility is directly affected by the amount of weight I'm carrying around on my frame at any given time. My mother suffers from the same thing, and has a host of other complaints over which diet is a factor. Maybe one day I'll be chained to a wheelchair.

I hope this answers your question, though I'm not arguing the point of how to achieve better health, and I keep my own counsel on what I do or do not eat. My point was about prejudice against the overweight, namely that the same prejudice is frequently packaged in the context of helpful or informative advice on how to lose weight, or the notion that weight loss is somehow correlative to looking and feeling better about yourself, when I don't think it necessarily is. Regardless of how I personally feel about my weight, there's still a prejudice in play here.

Yeah, you do stereotype on a physical level...Let's say you're at a convenience store, waiting in line. The guy in front of you is a black teenager, wearing a hoody pulled up, covering his face. He's got a hand in one of his pockets, and he looks really nervous. What's your first thought?
"Is he going to rob this store?"
Now, you may squash that thought quickly, or not. But it was still based on the physical. Most of our stereotypes are, because we're a very visual animal.
And I bet you look at really skinny people negatively...You see a really skinny chick walking around, looking muscular, and you get mad and probably assume she's a bitch. And you see a fellow fat person, and probably are more positive towards them.
Deny it all you want, I won't believe you. I'm just saying that so you don't get mad when I don't imediately agree with whatever justifications you provice.

And now the knee-jerk reaction:
And since you use the asshole stereotype, I'll use the bitch one. I'll assume you're a bitch until you prove otherwise...

Seriously, that's a lot of assuming you just did lidseylatch. Really. Lots.

It's a really huge presumption of yours to tell anyone else what they think, based on what you do. Also, it's really just silly on it's face to post like you just did. Telling others what they think. How futile and indefensable of an arguement is that? I mean, it's silly. You can't possibley tell me what I think, or anyone else.

You can tell me what you *think* I'd think, based off your own preconceptions. But that's utterly pointless.

I hate to break it to you, but no, not everyone sees a black guy in a hoodie and thinks criminal. Really, it's true. Not everyone ever had the preconception that blacks are theives. Hate to break that to you.

Your post there isn't really worth responding to, becuase it's full of so many indefensable points, and it's pretty much just there to tell us about how you project your issues onto what you imagine others think.

It's also troll like, especially the ending, and you need to watch that. You're telling us you can't handle an adult conversation. Work on it. That point is not up for discussion.

To reiterate a point I also think you need to consider:
Not everyone shares your thoughts. Not everyone sees black skin and thinks "thief." You might, and you might be sure you're just like everyone else. You might also think it's thier failure to be honest with themselves that makes them disagree. I'd say that it's your refusal to consider they're being honest, both with you and themselves, that's at issue.