14 Year old Dies at Thayer Learning Center - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Irishsean · 03-17-2005, 07:12 AM

I'm sorry, my last post was a bit rushed, so I'll go thru and list my disagreements now.

This kind of forced treatment has been proven ineffective years ago, but clueless parents who are up-in-arms fall for their brochures of lies hook, line, and sinker.

Where do you get this information? I am currently taking classes towards getting my LSAC, and one of the first things we were taught is to remove the person completely from the situation that allows them access to drugs.

These are private schools with no government regulations, and they’ve been torturing and/or killing kids for many years.

No government regulations? I have to go thru a complete background check every 3 months to get certified by the DHS to have contact with the kids, I also have to go thru mandatory scheduled and random drug tests, and tests for certain diseases. I am required to be an EMT first responder, keep my CPR up to date, and take courses in verbal de-escalation and non-harmfull physical restraint. I have had to actually restrain a child a few times, but they were in situations that if I did not, either the child or someone else would have been seriously injured. After each time this happened, I have to fill out aproximately 15 pages of paperwork, that is in turn given to the head of the program, the child's therapist, their parents, and DHS. Each time is completely reviewed, interviews conducted, and facts checked out.

Not only do kids receive severe abuse in these places, they are not treated by professionals. All of these places I speak of are run by counselors with the lowest level of degrees or not even out of school yet. Many (if not all of them) hire “recovering addicts with no education to “counsel” (torture, abuse, punish, break) these children.

This is the statement that rather upset me. During our last conversation on this subject, I told you that yes, I am a recovering addict. I have been clean for almost 4 years now, and part of my penance to myself for what I put my family and friends thru is to spend the rest of my life helping others to get out of or avoid the same things I went thru. What I do in the program is not counsel, I merely spend time with the kids, escort them to and from school, make sure they get to doctor and dentist appointments, answer questions, help them with their homework, take care of any problems they might have, and enforce the program rules. The enforcement of the rules are simple, it runs on a system of merits and demerits. The merits come from being helpfull, completing courses in school, politeness, keeping your room clean, and similar things. Demerits come from being rude, not following staff directions, cheating on homework, swearing, telling "war stories" (glorifying drug use, gangs, violent behavior) and similar common-sense rules. If you recieve more demerits than merits, you go to worksheets. Here, rather than spend your leisure time playing games, watching movies, or playing sports, you listen to educational programs, and take tests on them afterwards to make sure you were paying attention. You still get 2 hours of outdoor physical exercise every day while in worksheets, and this includes everything from calisthenics to playing basketball.

I think I do have a clue what I am talking about. I have worked for a WWASP program for nearly 3 years now, and have never seen the kind of behaviour you blindly attribute to all youth programs. I am sorry you and others have had a bad experience in programs, but they are not all the same. By putting all programs of this type in the same category, all you are showing is an irrational fear, and the inability to intelligently discuss differences between them. I am sorry if you take my defense of my job as an attack against you, but I am not going to allow anyone else to attack my job, or myself here without defending them.

You know, especially after our conversations in PM and IM Pinkie, about how I feel, and I think a lot of your comments in this post were personal jabs at me. I am upset that you used private conversations about the problems I have had in my life, and how I am dealing with them as attacks against myself and my work.

If anyone else has any questions, and can converse rationally and keep an open mind, I am willing to answer anything here or in PMs if you would prefer.

frogza · 03-17-2005, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irishsean

A lot of the allegations made in this thread are complete horse-shit. Yes, bad stuff does happen, but not every program is a gulag that beats children, and not all the people that work there are evil.

I swear to god, if this turns into Irish is satan because he works in a program like the last thread of this type, I'm gonna be so pissed. I work in a program to help kids, and I do help them, there is no beating, no torture, no brainwashing, the only time hands are put on a kid is to stop them from hurting themselves or others, and then you have to fill out pages and pages of paperwork. I have to be licensed by the DHS to even work there. The kids that leave, for the most part, are better than when they come in. I won't say it works for every kid, but the majority leave better than they came.

My brother and I have both worked with troubled kids for years. the program we worked for had both judicated and private placed kids. The kids first go to a group home, it is inspected on a regular basis by social services and kids parents. After they prove that they can be trusted to attend school without running they are placed in homes with proctor parents (much like foster care)

I have had 6 different kids live with my wife and I. My brother and his wife have had 13. I am still in contact with two of the kids that lived with me and my brother is in contact with 7. Unfortunatly some of the boys have reverted to their old ways, these are the ones that don't want to keep in touch. I place a great deal of blame on thier parents, who use their kids to ferry their drugs, or encourage them to join gangs or can't stay out of prison themselves for more than a few months at a time.

Yesterday I ran into one of the boys who went back to his old ways. I teach classes at the county prison, and he walked into my class. We were both surprised to see each other. As soon as I saw him I got a pit in my stomach. It really physicaly hurt to see him there, I felt like my own son had just been put in prison. I questioned myself, wondering where I had gone wrong with him. Working with him for as long as I did, I got to love him like he was my own son. Many of my associates are the same way, we're not all monsters like the group that the article talks about.

There are horrible programs out their, I fight to get the ones I know about shut down by working with case workers and letting them know about the abuses. Most case workers I know, pull kids out of a program at the very first sign of trouble. Public awareness when stories like this come out helps to. When these monsters can't get any money they will shut down.

The second way to shut these places down is to get parents to do more than throw money at their kids problems. Realize that when you become a parent your might need to be less selfish with your time. Turn of the TV and talk to your kids, be involved with their schooling etc.

pinkie · 03-17-2005, 08:19 AM

Quote:

The second way to shut these places down is to get parents to do more than throw money at their kids problems. Realize that when you become a parent your might need to be less selfish with your time. Turn of the TV and talk to your kids, be involved with their schooling etc.

Wow. Amen to that!

frogza · 03-17-2005, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkie

Wow. Amen to that!

At first that paragraph was much longer, but it was too much ranting and raving for my style.

Deadbeat parents are a real pet peave of mine. Maybe because I can't have kids of my own, it bugs me when people who can are such slackers and unappreciative of their responsability.

pinkie · 03-21-2005, 06:51 AM

Court documents from the wrongful death lawsuit filed against Thayer Learning center:

http://isaccorp.org/gallery/reyesvthayer/page1.html

Cynthetiq · 03-21-2005, 07:02 AM

We like to stimulate discussion here. Putting up a link to 20 pages of court documents, in an already volatile thread does not stimulate more discussion.

If you'd summarize or comment on some of the information within the court documents it would support your arguments better.

pinkie · 03-21-2005, 07:43 AM

Okay, well it's a follow up on the subject in which I think I've made my opinion quite clear on. I would copy and paste the document's content if I could, but that website won't let me.

I can add that that website is a good source of information and they're fighting the good fight. They are survivors, like me, of these programs, and are doing this as a volunteer service. There is no profit but to help kids in abusive, inhumane circumstances. I just thought some people might want a follow up on the direction of this situation.

Irishsean · 03-21-2005, 08:05 AM

I did read the court documents Pinkie, and found them disturbing. They describe situations that I have never seen, and could never comprehend seeing at any of the facilities where I have worked. After reading the complaints, I do think there are problems at that facility and do hope that it is shut down and the children who have been put thru that are helped.

On the other hand, I think that in all probability, some amount of the complaints that have been made have been twisted or are outright lies. In my experience, children will say and do almost anything to get out of the program and return to their previous life/drugs/gangs. I am not saying that all the complaints are like that by any means, I am sure that with the amount and in depth descriptions that some of them contain that they are probably true. I am just making an observation based on my experience working with kids.

I really wish that all programs were not lumped together under the impression that ones like these give. The one I work with has nothing even close to resembling the kind of abuses that this program apparently contains.

Also Pinkie, i did not mean my last few posts to come off as being hard on you. I know you had a bad experience, and cannot necessarily see that not all people are cold and uncaring towards kids, and not all programs are like this. Its just really hard to hear things that make me feel like I am out to hurt these kids, when I love them like they were my own.

This morning we had a group of kids graduate and leave the program. There is nothing like the feeling you get when a group of kids come up to you, hug you, and thank you for helping them straighten out their lives. On graduation days, I have yet to leave work without tears in my eyes. I am so happy to see these kids return to life outside of the program without drugs messing with their minds, with a good education, and with a positive outlook on life. There are even a few students that have graduated over the last few years that still send me letters every few months thru work, telling me about their lives, struggles they are having, and new things they have experienced. It really makes me happy to know that I helped them thru a tough time in their lives, and they are doing better because of it.

PS. If you have any pull with ISAC, let me know, I found a few errors on their site and emailed them about them anonymously the last time they were mentioned, and they have yet to fix them.

pinkie · 03-21-2005, 08:27 AM

I appreciate and respect your position. I never meant what I said to be an attack on you personally. It's a blanket opinion that was established through my experience and the information obtained through years of personal experience and observation, viewing documents, and personal stories of fellow survivors of programs that did harm them deeply.

If you are making a difference in these kid's lives, I commend you, and thank you.
As far as ISAC goes, PM me and I'll get in touch with them if I can help.

You're at Cross Creek, right?

Cynthetiq · 03-21-2005, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkie

I appreciate and respect your position. I never meant what I said to be an attack on you personally. It's a blanket opinion that was established through my experience and the information obtained through years of personal experience and observation, viewing documents, and personal stories of fellow survivors of programs that did harm them deeply.

By the same token one could easily extrapolate your statement to support ANY bias or bigotry. It does not excuse disrespectful discussion and discourse.

On the reverse of the coin, pinkie do you have any documentation of how many people programs like these have helped people? I can hardly believe that any industry would mature to 20+ years without some sort of statistics showing that it's effective. I can also hardly believe that there aren't more people like Irishsean and the kids that are happy to have broken the cycle.

pinkie · 03-21-2005, 09:08 AM

No programs like these help people. Breaking a sprit to rebuild/reprogram is not helpful, it's damaging and destructive. Most of the time it takes years for the abuse to resurface in a way that you can put into perspective and come to terms that what happened to you was abusive and wrong. Just like what happens with abused children at home by their own parents. Only with this, we’re talking about childhood “program” abuse, brainwashing and cult tactics; ie; Behavior Modification: taking inspiration from theories fashionable at the time and particularly from Chinese methods of thought control much like if not just like EST; est adopted, in part, the Zen master approach, which was often abusive, profane, demeaning, and authoritarian. (One of my favorite Zen stories is of the master who asks his disciple a series of questions. No matter what the disciple answers, the master hits him with a stick. Even contradictory answers are met with the stick.) While many participants did not perceive the training as particularly abusive, some were not used to the discipline requested of them. Some have claimed that one typically abusive approach was the requirement of extraordinary bladder control in est training. Participants were advised not to leave the room, even to go to the toilet, during training.

What do you know about these programs, Cynthetic? Did you know that their methods are verbal abuse and a cult-like mentality, and "working their program” means that they were adequately brainwashed?

I don't see where my discussion was disrespectful, and I'm really confused as to what your problem is with me. I think that if you're going to correct me, you must first have a better understanding of the subject matter and not just reprimand me for exercising my freedom to avoid conflict, by not debating a subject that I know better than to even try.

I DO NOT AGREE WITH CULT METHODS!! PERIOD.

Cynthetiq · 03-21-2005, 09:16 AM

No, I know nothing about this subject. I am trying to learn about the subject in a fair and balanced manner. I do know that there is a balance to arguments. You make your statements and do not allow anyone to disagree with you.

you stated, "If you are making a difference in these kid's lives, I commend you, and thank you." and yet in the post above this you just stated quite the contrary, that he's not EVER going to make a difference. In my mind you stated one thing from one side of your mouth and then stated this from the other.

In other words if you truly believe that your statement to Irishsean was a fair statement, then I ask you to give the person who states that he finds this inspiring and rewarding work that your so adamantly putting down.

Since you find and state yourself that this subject is NOT discussion worthy, I am closing the thread.

03-17-2005, 07:12 AM	#41 (permalink)
Irishsean edited for content Location: Austin, TX	I'm sorry, my last post was a bit rushed, so I'll go thru and list my disagreements now. This kind of forced treatment has been proven ineffective years ago, but clueless parents who are up-in-arms fall for their brochures of lies hook, line, and sinker. Where do you get this information? I am currently taking classes towards getting my LSAC, and one of the first things we were taught is to remove the person completely from the situation that allows them access to drugs. These are private schools with no government regulations, and they’ve been torturing and/or killing kids for many years. No government regulations? I have to go thru a complete background check every 3 months to get certified by the DHS to have contact with the kids, I also have to go thru mandatory scheduled and random drug tests, and tests for certain diseases. I am required to be an EMT first responder, keep my CPR up to date, and take courses in verbal de-escalation and non-harmfull physical restraint. I have had to actually restrain a child a few times, but they were in situations that if I did not, either the child or someone else would have been seriously injured. After each time this happened, I have to fill out aproximately 15 pages of paperwork, that is in turn given to the head of the program, the child's therapist, their parents, and DHS. Each time is completely reviewed, interviews conducted, and facts checked out. Not only do kids receive severe abuse in these places, they are not treated by professionals. All of these places I speak of are run by counselors with the lowest level of degrees or not even out of school yet. Many (if not all of them) hire “recovering addicts with no education to “counsel” (torture, abuse, punish, break) these children. This is the statement that rather upset me. During our last conversation on this subject, I told you that yes, I am a recovering addict. I have been clean for almost 4 years now, and part of my penance to myself for what I put my family and friends thru is to spend the rest of my life helping others to get out of or avoid the same things I went thru. What I do in the program is not counsel, I merely spend time with the kids, escort them to and from school, make sure they get to doctor and dentist appointments, answer questions, help them with their homework, take care of any problems they might have, and enforce the program rules. The enforcement of the rules are simple, it runs on a system of merits and demerits. The merits come from being helpfull, completing courses in school, politeness, keeping your room clean, and similar things. Demerits come from being rude, not following staff directions, cheating on homework, swearing, telling "war stories" (glorifying drug use, gangs, violent behavior) and similar common-sense rules. If you recieve more demerits than merits, you go to worksheets. Here, rather than spend your leisure time playing games, watching movies, or playing sports, you listen to educational programs, and take tests on them afterwards to make sure you were paying attention. You still get 2 hours of outdoor physical exercise every day while in worksheets, and this includes everything from calisthenics to playing basketball. I think I do have a clue what I am talking about. I have worked for a WWASP program for nearly 3 years now, and have never seen the kind of behaviour you blindly attribute to all youth programs. I am sorry you and others have had a bad experience in programs, but they are not all the same. By putting all programs of this type in the same category, all you are showing is an irrational fear, and the inability to intelligently discuss differences between them. I am sorry if you take my defense of my job as an attack against you, but I am not going to allow anyone else to attack my job, or myself here without defending them. You know, especially after our conversations in PM and IM Pinkie, about how I feel, and I think a lot of your comments in this post were personal jabs at me. I am upset that you used private conversations about the problems I have had in my life, and how I am dealing with them as attacks against myself and my work. If anyone else has any questions, and can converse rationally and keep an open mind, I am willing to answer anything here or in PMs if you would prefer. __________________ There are no absolute rules of conduct, either in peace or war. Everything depends on circumstances. Leon Trotsky

03-21-2005, 07:02 AM	#46 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	We like to stimulate discussion here. Putting up a link to 20 pages of court documents, in an already volatile thread does not stimulate more discussion. If you'd summarize or comment on some of the information within the court documents it would support your arguments better. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

03-21-2005, 07:43 AM	#47 (permalink)
pinkie Helplessly hoping Location: Above the stars	Okay, well it's a follow up on the subject in which I think I've made my opinion quite clear on. I would copy and paste the document's content if I could, but that website won't let me. I can add that that website is a good source of information and they're fighting the good fight. They are survivors, like me, of these programs, and are doing this as a volunteer service. There is no profit but to help kids in abusive, inhumane circumstances. I just thought some people might want a follow up on the direction of this situation. Last edited by pinkie; 03-21-2005 at 08:31 AM..

03-21-2005, 08:05 AM	#48 (permalink)
Irishsean edited for content Location: Austin, TX	I did read the court documents Pinkie, and found them disturbing. They describe situations that I have never seen, and could never comprehend seeing at any of the facilities where I have worked. After reading the complaints, I do think there are problems at that facility and do hope that it is shut down and the children who have been put thru that are helped. On the other hand, I think that in all probability, some amount of the complaints that have been made have been twisted or are outright lies. In my experience, children will say and do almost anything to get out of the program and return to their previous life/drugs/gangs. I am not saying that all the complaints are like that by any means, I am sure that with the amount and in depth descriptions that some of them contain that they are probably true. I am just making an observation based on my experience working with kids. I really wish that all programs were not lumped together under the impression that ones like these give. The one I work with has nothing even close to resembling the kind of abuses that this program apparently contains. Also Pinkie, i did not mean my last few posts to come off as being hard on you. I know you had a bad experience, and cannot necessarily see that not all people are cold and uncaring towards kids, and not all programs are like this. Its just really hard to hear things that make me feel like I am out to hurt these kids, when I love them like they were my own. This morning we had a group of kids graduate and leave the program. There is nothing like the feeling you get when a group of kids come up to you, hug you, and thank you for helping them straighten out their lives. On graduation days, I have yet to leave work without tears in my eyes. I am so happy to see these kids return to life outside of the program without drugs messing with their minds, with a good education, and with a positive outlook on life. There are even a few students that have graduated over the last few years that still send me letters every few months thru work, telling me about their lives, struggles they are having, and new things they have experienced. It really makes me happy to know that I helped them thru a tough time in their lives, and they are doing better because of it. PS. If you have any pull with ISAC, let me know, I found a few errors on their site and emailed them about them anonymously the last time they were mentioned, and they have yet to fix them. __________________ There are no absolute rules of conduct, either in peace or war. Everything depends on circumstances. Leon Trotsky Last edited by Irishsean; 03-21-2005 at 08:10 AM.. Reason: cuz ah kant spel!

03-21-2005, 08:27 AM	#49 (permalink)
pinkie Helplessly hoping Location: Above the stars	Thank you. I appreciate and respect your position. I never meant what I said to be an attack on you personally. It's a blanket opinion that was established through my experience and the information obtained through years of personal experience and observation, viewing documents, and personal stories of fellow survivors of programs that did harm them deeply. If you are making a difference in these kid's lives, I commend you, and thank you. As far as ISAC goes, PM me and I'll get in touch with them if I can help. You're at Cross Creek, right?

03-21-2005, 06:51 AM	#45 (permalink)
pinkie Helplessly hoping Location: Above the stars	Court documents from the wrongful death lawsuit filed against Thayer Learning center: http://isaccorp.org/gallery/reyesvthayer/page1.html

03-21-2005, 09:08 AM	#51 (permalink)
pinkie Helplessly hoping Location: Above the stars	No programs like these help people. Breaking a sprit to rebuild/reprogram is not helpful, it's damaging and destructive. Most of the time it takes years for the abuse to resurface in a way that you can put into perspective and come to terms that what happened to you was abusive and wrong. Just like what happens with abused children at home by their own parents. Only with this, we’re talking about childhood “program” abuse, brainwashing and cult tactics; ie; Behavior Modification: taking inspiration from theories fashionable at the time and particularly from Chinese methods of thought control much like if not just like EST; est adopted, in part, the Zen master approach, which was often abusive, profane, demeaning, and authoritarian. (One of my favorite Zen stories is of the master who asks his disciple a series of questions. No matter what the disciple answers, the master hits him with a stick. Even contradictory answers are met with the stick.) While many participants did not perceive the training as particularly abusive, some were not used to the discipline requested of them. Some have claimed that one typically abusive approach was the requirement of extraordinary bladder control in est training. Participants were advised not to leave the room, even to go to the toilet, during training. What do you know about these programs, Cynthetic? Did you know that their methods are verbal abuse and a cult-like mentality, and "working their program” means that they were adequately brainwashed? I don't see where my discussion was disrespectful, and I'm really confused as to what your problem is with me. I think that if you're going to correct me, you must first have a better understanding of the subject matter and not just reprimand me for exercising my freedom to avoid conflict, by not debating a subject that I know better than to even try. I DO NOT AGREE WITH CULT METHODS!! PERIOD.

03-21-2005, 09:16 AM	#52 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	No, I know nothing about this subject. I am trying to learn about the subject in a fair and balanced manner. I do know that there is a balance to arguments. You make your statements and do not allow anyone to disagree with you. you stated, "If you are making a difference in these kid's lives, I commend you, and thank you." and yet in the post above this you just stated quite the contrary, that he's not EVER going to make a difference. In my mind you stated one thing from one side of your mouth and then stated this from the other. In other words if you truly believe that your statement to Irishsean was a fair statement, then I ask you to give the person who states that he finds this inspiring and rewarding work that your so adamantly putting down. Since you find and state yourself that this subject is NOT discussion worthy, I am closing the thread. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!