ziadel

so, yeah, I'm a student at Modern welding school, and its a really relaxed learning environment, so I've become great friends with my teachers. The only problem is that one of them, has some, ideas, or seems to not be as repulsed by certain ideas that I feel everyone should be...basically, I have a teacher, we'll call him the Modern Welding Mad Man (MWMM for short), first thing I ever noticed about him was the lightning bolt on his welding hood and his leathers, just one single lightning bolt, which reminded me of the SS thing, just one S type lightning bolt, ok, whatever, mebbe he just likes lightning...
so anyways, I get talking to him some more, and its become that he holds at least SOME of the nazi ideals to be true, he was telling me about this documentary on PBS about auschwitz, and he was like, did you watch it, and I said, eh, I tried, I started crying tho, and he was like, why, and I told him my grandmother was there, and hes like, 'oh really!?, you should have watched it, it did a good job of explaining what it was originally supposed to be and how it became what it was' and I was like, 'you mean how it became a death camp?' and he just goes, 'yeah'
anyways, I know he was a skinhead when he was younger, he got kinda pissed off when I mentioned I would never own a german car as those companies were started by the reich, and I won't even use Bayer aprin (they knocked out the Zyklon B)

so I dunno, the weird thing is, back in highschool, I woulda fucking laid this guy out, or at least gotten my ass kicked trying for even THINKING this shit. But now, I find myself being more accepting, saying things like, well, if he wants to think that way, fine, thats fine. As long as hes not shoveling people into ovens, he can think whatever he wants... and I find myself getting very pissed off and disappointed AT MYSELF. He is a great welder and I have learned a LOT from him, but this is just kinda fucked up. I dunno what to do, I need to find a way to get along, but not feel badly for settling for that....


I dunno, sorry for the rant, but it just makes me feel shitty...

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the_marq

Well congratulations on being mature enough not to start a fight with this guy. I guess that means you are more mature now than you were in your high school years. The fact is it really would not have changed anything anyway. This type individual is not going to change his point of view on the holocast no matter how many times he get's rapped in the head. If anything, that sort of reaction is only going to strengthen his resolve.

I know I am taking a leap here, but if he was a skinhead when he was younger he's probably not very racially tollerant. Therefore getting beat up by a Jew (I am assuming you are Jewish if your family was held at Auschwitz), will just make him feel more "right" in his beliefs.

So anyway, take the high ground and you should be fine.

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#3 in a series

ziadel

nope, not a Jew, blonde haired blue eyed Ukranian... and I explained that to him hoping that mebbe he would see the holocaust as bad as it killed many people he or his type of people would find racially 'pure'

nope.

and these asshats wonder why I dye my hair black.

thanks for the maturity compliment, I dunno if it is in fact because I HAVE matured, or because I typically carry a firearm and try to act more responsibly because of it, but thats off the topic.


There was also a 45 minute discussion when I admitted to being in the Gay - Straight alliance in Highschool

He started going off on how Homosexuals in general support gun control and how I should'nt support them, I REALLY wanted to say, well, the nazis disarmed all the Germans, but other students were around, and the comments he made to me were in private, so I did'nt wanna drag anyone into it...


god this is a shitty situation.

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Charlatan

ziadel... as the_marq points out... this is a sign of maturity. Nothing would be gained in punching out his lights.

I have found that going through life you will meet many, no MANY people with whom you will disagree, dislike or lean towards hating for their beliefs. Sometime I take the bait and will have a discussion (or arguement) with them but most times I will just nob and move on...

You aren't likely to change their beliefs... You are better off living your life as an example to others.

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ziadel

I'm starting to think that I made a mistake in pursuing welding as a career despite the fact that I seem to have quite an aptitude for it... seems like, in general, welders seem to be very prejudiced...

and I do try to lead by example, but I'm by FAR the minority here, I got weird looks for a week when I yelled "I believe in love without prejudice' during the discussion on homo-sexuals...

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Charlatan

I have had a lot of experience working with Mechanics, Janitors and Maintenance Men... Never have I experienced a more mysogenistic, homophobic, etc. lot... Many of they wore it as a badge of honour and in having discussions and making jokes would take it as implicits that I shared their beliefs...

In some cases, I would take the time to engage them with questions about why they would say something or make a statement to the contrary (much as you did above) but generally, I ended up just smiling and nodding or keeping to myself.

In the end, I could have had battles everyday but it more than likely won't have changed any of there minds and would have made working with these men difficult to say the least... Then again, I knew that these jobs were only summer employment...

I wouldn't sweat it too much. It is just one of those things in life...

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Blaspheme

I'm curious here. Judging from your topic title, you consider this person to be your friend, yet your own statments are labeling this man as a racist and a bigot. You seem to indicate that you strongly disagree with his stance on these issues, so how can he possibly be a friend?

It sounds to me like this man is most assuredly not your friend. He is someone you were getting to know on a friendly basis, when you discovered that he had personality flaws beyond the limits of acceptability. It's not like you're talking about something minor like not being able to agree on a place to get lunch, or what to watch on TV when you hang out. This guy has a fundamantal lack of respect for the value of human life in all its forms.

If you're angry with yourself, it's because you know that you are violating your own principles by associating with this person. If he's one of your instructors, you may have to associate with him in a classroom or learning environment, but you don't need to associate with him outside of that.

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ziadel

your making a good point, prolly the better thing to say would be, ya know, theres this dude at school, who would be a freaking GREAT dude, if it wasnt for the fact that he is a nazi... or whatever...

mebbe I'm pissed at myself for interacting with him period, I dunno...

its all just really disappointing...

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ziadel

when you were immersed in the environment, you did'nt worry about water seeking its own level? It kinda worries me, group mentality can be a powerful thing, and I refuse to believe that people would believe in this crap without it. I prefer to believe that man is generally a noble creature...

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Livia Regina

What makes you think that? Especially when people believe the things this man does and would probably act on those beliefs given the chance.

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ziadel

absurdly foolish optimism apparently.

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ironman

That is known as maturity and tolerance where i come from. Good for you, wish we all were as mature and tolerants to hear and accept what others beleive and have to say, even if you don't agree, we would all live in a more peacefull place then.

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theusername

Yea man I do applaud you on your maturity, I had family that went and died in auschwitz, I probably would have clocked the guy. You have the right to your own beliefs and so does he, but if someone considers themself to be a nazi I realize that they would have been the same type of person that would have killed one of my family members. I take it personally.

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Halx

I just want to say that this is a great discussion. It's a very important thing to talk about.

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Slavakion

I think that you should keep him as a friend/acquaintance. You pretty much have three options: Ignore his bigoted comments, fight back with tolerance, or tell him that his comments make you uncomfortable. You're gonna have to deal with him for a while yet, as he's a teacher. So make sure that you keep things cordial between you, at the very least.

I have a miniature version of this with one of my friends. He's very Republican/conservative and religious. I'm very liberal and atheist. Opposites attract, maybe, because we're pretty good friends.

ziadel

so, what are we getting at? Is it OK for me to just say, ya know what, think whatever you want, and wait until I find this dude beating up some random black guy just for being black and then beat him silly? I dunno that I'm necessarily OK with that



we also talked about his past a little bit, he confided in me that he was arrested last month for some trespassing charge, just a $1500 fine basically, but he was telling me about how he is a convicted felon. He would'nt say what he did, and I could see remorse on his face when he spoke of it, and I know he was in jail for a while... he did'nt goto welding school until he was 31 years old, so I am assuming he was there for a while...

so I dunno, its just a genuinely fucked up situation...

but Livia, I feel I need to answer your question a little better...
When it comes to people in general, I prefer to hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst. Why? Well, I find it pretty depressing to assume everyone is just flat out evil, so I just assume they are basically good. I have a tendency towards depression anyways, so I try not to make things any worse on myself than they have to be.


anyone else have any words of advice?

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Grasshopper Green

It's kind of hard with him being your instructor and all. I think I would have a hard time being around him just because his way of thinking is completely opposite to my way of thinking.

Personally, I would avoid unnecessary conversation that wasn't class oriented. In my experience, people who are bigoted in some way don't change much. I have family who is that way and lived in a place where there was a lot of prejudice, and I tried to understand it when I was there and there really wasn't a good explanation for it. I don't know if that helps or not, but I hope things end up working out for the best, whatever that may be.

ziadel

the silver lining here is that I only have 7 weeks left of school (out of seven months) and this only became an issue a week or so ago I think...

this could have been a lot worse if we got into it during the first month of school.....

jesus, I finally find something I like enough to do as a career, and it turns out I'm gonna be surrounded by assholes for the rest of my life. I'm cursed.

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Manuel Hong

It 's interesting that you have an aptitude and a desire to follow a career path where you'll be surrounded by close-minded people. Your ability to deal with this in a graceful and mature way puts you in an unique position, don't you think? Your stable presence there will undoubtedly give these folks something to think about. You will be their peer, accepted by them and yet hold totally different views that many of them will have to consider. Your example may be the ripple in the pond that makes profound changes in another social group that would not ordinarliy encounter someone like you.

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flstf

If this guy is open to any kind of dialog with you I see nothing wrong with continuing to let him know you don't want to hear his prejudicial comments. I have had a few friends and aquaintances berate me for some of my negative comments in the past and it caused me to re-think some things.

Of course some people are so set in their ways that they're not worth the effort. I have worked with a few hardcore racists and some are just not worth engaging in a discussion or a fight but once they learn your take on things they will usually not mouth off in front of you.

scout

Aw the good news is someday in the near future you will be able to open your own welding shop and you won't have to be around people who you find to be annoying.
Keep your chin up, your mouth shut and just survive the next few weeks. Engaging a man of this caliber usually gets you nowhere. Since he is your instructor he could make life a real bitch. Good Luck to you!

ziadel

well, he pulled out a neat little pocket watch today at school, opened up the back, so we could all see the little turning gears and what not, then flipped it over and I saw the SS on either side of the watch face


I flipped.
I just gasped, turned around, kicked a tool box across the room and went outside.


I feel icky.

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almostaugust

Its a tough situation. But i can see your standpoint ziadel. Its good that you have at least recognised his ilk.
I find it as sick as you do. I think that anyone who is impressed by nazi doctrine is emotionally immature.
You said this guy was your instructor? Im sure the school management would be unimpressed by having one of these people in thier ranks. If it really bugs you, maybe you should see them about it.
Sadly, the world isnt black and white, and neo nazis arnt all evil goose stepping masterminds. Often they are just stupid kids. Ive heard the most hateful, bigoted remarks over the years from my family and close friends.
Recently one of my good friends came out with this remark that 'fags deserved aids', it was totally out of character for him. But then he has alot of problems, so i let it slide.

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There is no reason why people with extreme points of views cannot be friends. I'm friends with a Wicca (witch, pagan, whatever you what to call it) her belief mocks mine in almost every aspect. But that doesn't stop us from being friends. She's a good person. Fun to be around, and extremely sweet.

But we do from time to time have a difference of opinion (otherwise know as a heated debate) and we have stomped away in anger. Which will happen from time to time with friends of such vast differences?

Don't worry about flipping out. It happens. If he worthy of your friendship. Then he'll understand and give you time to cool off.

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TexanAvenger

I used to feel the same way about a handful of people that I knew, that they just weren't as disgusted, or even as morally opposed, to certain things that I thought were, more or less, repulsive on a universal level. Senior year in high school I realized, or at least began to theorize, that one of the basic human psychological mechanisms was the ability to bend and adapt one's morals and moral judgement to fit however they see fit.

Personally, I'd make it clear to the guy that I absolutely disagree with him, and tell him why. That is, if I thought it at all important to continue, or begin, considering him a friend. Bonds between people need not be formed out of similarities. As they say, opposites attract. It either makes for a great relationship, in which people can discuss ideas they disagree on, even greatly, possibly changing each others' minds and making them greater friends, or pull them so close to each other that the slightest difference is absolutely repugnant.

Really, I think it all depends on how much you care about staying around the guy. If, as you said, he's otherwise a great guy and you that makes you want to stick around, then do so. If it's not really that important to you, move on. There are plenty of wonderful people in the world that will agree with you, but keep in mind that if everybody agrees with you, the world's going to be a helluva lot more boring place.

slimsam1

How can it be a mistake if your choosing this path will mean the profession's average prejudice will go down a notch or two?

RogueHunter65

The only thing that I would say that has not already been said is that, are you sure that the lightning bolt is the same one from the german SS. The reason why I ask is because many weilders are also electricians, the trades go together nicely. And the brotherhood of electricians symbol is the lightning bolt. It is like a labor union. I just thought that I would sugest looking into because maybe the lightning bolt is not political but work related. But, I do see where you are coming from.

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ziadel

I figured out it wasn't an innocent type lightning bolt when he showed me his SS officers pocket watch and the SS MOther's Broach belt buckle he had machined for himself...

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