Caste and Culture in India - Tsunami - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

raeanna74 · 01-19-2005, 07:46 AM

I must claim a large bit of ignorance on this subject but I am hoping that some of you here can help enlighten me. If I have any misconceptions PLEASE help me clear them up.

From what I know of the caste system and the culture in India I've heard that if an individual is lame, handicapped, poor, homeless or many other unfortunate situations that the caste system dictates that they are not to be helped - at least not much. I've heard that the belief is that if you have had something unfortunate happen to you that you've brought it upon yourself by Karma or some such force. If others more fortunate help them then they are preventing the handicapped from "earning" a better reincarnation.

In light of that - how are the people responding to each other after the recent disaster of the Tsunami? If this IS what they believe then are they refusing to help those harmed, bereaved, or made homeless by the catastrophy?? Is the only help the people are getting coming from America, France, and other countries or are the people themselves helping each other? How do they view what has happened in the generally accepted belief systems of their country?? and if they are helping each other how do they reconcile what they are doing with that I understand as the most common belief system of India?? Are they much fewer people who believe this way that I've been lead to believe??

Karby · 01-19-2005, 09:47 AM

i said i didn't feel all that sad/empethetic about this situation, and i still don't. mabye because it's considered a "natural disaster" (i'm talking about the tsunami). but when people do things like this to other people "ya know, just because", it really burns me up.
this was in the Washington post. you can find it online, but you'd have to register for it. registration's free.:

Quote:

Tsunami Opens Fault Lines in Old Caste System
India's Untouchables Allege Discrimination In Allocation of Aid

By Rama Lakshmi
Special to The Washington Post
Tuesday, January 18, 2005; Page A13

KEEZHAIVANAGIRI, India -- Muthu Vellaithevan, a farm laborer who is part of India's untouchable caste, lost seven goats and a cow when massive waves lashed at his coastal village on Dec. 26. The water also swept away his thatch-roofed mud hut.

But he said his real problems began after the water receded, when he and his people found themselves the targets of aid discrimination by the fishermen of his village.

Members of the untouchable caste, which is at the bottom of the rural social order in India, say they were made to live and cook separately from the fishing families of Thirumullaivasal village in Tamil Nadu after the Dec. 26 tsunami washed away their homes. (Rama Lakshmi For The Washington Post)

"Forty families from my community took shelter in a school building outside the village," recalled Vellaithevan, 35, a father of three. "But in two days, the fishermen's families at the shelter began troubling us. They did not allow us to sleep and eat with them. They did not want to be under the same roof with us. We were forced to leave. Our homes were destroyed and our children were hungry. Where could we go?"

The South Asian tragedy has ripped open centuries-old fault lines of caste in rural India's rigid social hierarchy. In the district of Nagapattinam, where more than 6,000 people died, untouchables from about 10 villages have openly protested what they call discrimination against them in the provision of relief supplies and access to shelters.

The Indian constitution outlaws the country's 3,000-year-old caste system, in which society is organized into groups ranked in a strict hierarchy. But many Indians retain the system mentally. Untouchables are at the bottom of the rural social order; people of other castes often consider them to be unclean and refuse any contact with them.

The chief of Thirumullaivasal village, Shankuntala Natesan, a woman from the fishing community, denied the charges of aid discrimination.

She said the losses suffered by the untouchables were small because they did not have much to begin with. She said 90 fishing people and three untouchables died in the village.

"We have lost everything. Our homes, boats and lives," Natesan said, as she showed a television and refrigerator that lay broken in her home. "They lost their thatch roofs, a few goats and maybe a sickle and a spade."

The fishing families lived closest to the sea in this coastal community and appeared to have suffered the most damage from the tsunami in this area, in loss of both lives and livelihood. The bulk of relief supplies, from the government and private organizations, has gone to them.

"The fishermen have cornered all the relief supplies that come into the village. The whole world thought that only the fishermen are the victims," said Selvi Thangavelu, 40, whose husband washed fish that were brought from the sea and loaded them into trucks. "When we queued up for food or clothes, they said, 'Go away, we have suffered the most because we have lost lives and boats. What have you lost?' Our lives and our work are closely tied to theirs. But nobody paid any attention to us."

When they were thrown out of the school building, Vellaithevan and others went to a marriage hall and lived separately there for 10 days.

He said the government built plastic-roofed tents for 10 untouchable families in the village, while all the fishing families received shelters. Vellaithevan's family now lives by the road in a small tent that he made by tying old borrowed saris to three bamboo poles. He said the seawater flooded several acres of farmland, leaving him jobless.

When the government gave the family the equivalent of $90 and two sacks of rice as immediate relief a week ago, they returned to their village. "Now we cook our own food with the help of the money," he said, pointing to a wood fire outside his tent.

In Thirumullaivasal, 55 untouchable families have been living in a school building away from the tents of the fishermen. A private charity group cooks community meals in the village, but the untouchables allege that they mostly have served the fishing families.

"The fishermen say we will be fed only if there is extra food," said Neesa Madiazhagan, 28, an untouchable mother of two small children, living in the school building. "Whenever a relief truck enters the village, they unload it for themselves first. Whatever is left over is sent our way."

A senior bureaucrat looking after relief operations in Nagapattinam district acknowledged that there were some problems with the supplies not reaching the untouchables.

"In such a big calamity, there is bound to be some complaints about distribution of relief supplies. We are trying to address these gaps," said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "Fishermen bore the brunt of the tragedy. The untouchables also faced the problems, but to a lesser extent. Naturally all the attention was on the fishing community. But there is no deliberate caste discrimination."

...

Jonsgirl · 01-19-2005, 12:59 PM

Wait.....you don't care that in one day, in barely an hour, more than 160,000 people died, but people living thier lives by a thousands-of-year old caste system....that pisses you off?

I don't understand. You're either a humanitarian or you're not. Pick one.

You know what pisses me off? Ignorant, souless, &*^%heads that can't be bothered to be horrified by a terrible tragedy just beacsue it doesn't affect them. Can you even begin to imagine the full repercussions of that tsunami? No, of course you can't, otherwise you might actually have to blink and feel some sort of I don't know...emotion.
It's not even loss of life alone. It's economic, it's environmental, it's cultural, and so much more. And it will be felt for decades to come.
But that's ok, isn't it? Beacuse it happened so far away that if you hadn't taken high school geography, you wouldn't even know where this happened.

This isn't directed at you alone, Karby. I just honestly don't understand how this disaster, natural or not, can pass by with so many people not being moved in the slightest. And then to hear you say that it doesn't bother you, but thier very culture- and the normal social reactions based on that culture- do.....well, I really am lost on that one.

Karby · 01-19-2005, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonsgirl

Wait.....you don't care that in one day, in barely an hour, more than 160,000 people died, but people living thier lives by a thousands-of-year old caste system....that pisses you off?

I don't understand. You're either a humanitarian or you're not. Pick one.

You know what pisses me off? Ignorant, souless, &*^%heads that can't be bothered to be horrified by a terrible tragedy just beacsue it doesn't affect them. Can you even begin to imagine the full repercussions of that tsunami? No, of course you can't, otherwise you might actually have to blink and feel some sort of I don't know...emotion.
It's not even loss of life alone. It's economic, it's environmental, it's cultural, and so much more. And it will be felt for decades to come.
But that's ok, isn't it? Beacuse it happened so far away that if you hadn't taken high school geography, you wouldn't even know where this happened.

This isn't directed at you alone, Karby. I just honestly don't understand how this disaster, natural or not, can pass by with so many people not being moved in the slightest. And then to hear you say that it doesn't bother you, but thier very culture- and the normal social reactions based on that culture- do.....well, I really am lost on that one.

...no. i don't care. i'm sorry, but i just don't. i even tried to force myself to care, and it just isn't coming. so yeah. i don't.
natural disaster is one thing. it can't be controlled. predicted, but not controlled. but when one human pushes another around just for the hell of it, yeah it pisses me off more. and don't gimme that "oh it's culture based, so you should be more understanding" junk. for years the U.S did the same thing to minorities. it was the "natural order" of society. it was wrong then, and it's wrong now.
look, i'm not gonna get angry at the American government just because a tornado wipes out black communities. bit i'd be more upset if the government did little to nothing to help those victims of that hypothetical tornado, simply because they were black.

Quote:

Ignorant, souless, &*^%heads that can't be bothered to be horrified by a terrible tragedy just beacsue it doesn't affect them.

oh, so just because i'm not faking concern makes me an ignorant souless shithead? i don't think so. lemme ask you some questions: when millions of Rwandans died ten years as a result of genocide, did you care? did you send millions of dollars to help them? when the Sudanese government waged a campaign raping, killing, mutilating, and kidnapping and selling into slavery the southern black population of Sudan just to get them off of land that rightfully belongs to them, did you care about that too? did you help them in any way? When young children of South America are kidnapped off the street and sold into sexual slavery, do you do anything to stop it? When millions of people, mostly children, die every year of famine and preventable diseases, do you see what you can do to stop it from happening?

yet, one tragedy happens, one that no one has any control over, and the victims are made the spotlight of the world, and truly, they should be. but they're getting help. what about those whose tragedy has been going on for years? i didn't and still don't see anyone putting everything on hold to help them, least of all you. but then again:

Quote:

Beacuse it happened so far away that if you hadn't taken high school geography, you wouldn't even know where this happened.

raeanna74 · 01-20-2005, 09:06 AM

Do you happen to know when the Caste system was outlawed?? It's sad that people can't see past their pride and "tradition" to help others. If this was only outlawed in the past 50 years or so we have a long way to go before the caste system is more memory than reality. I've heard that it takes about 3 generations for a cultural system to be laid aside.

I admit I don't feel a lot of sorrow over the Tsunami. It's not that I don't think I shouldn't feel sympathy for the losses there. I just personally can't comprehend or empathize because I have never known such a loss. I feel an anger in situations where people cause other's pain or trouble. I have been in that kind of situation. I have not been the victim of a natural catastrophy. Either way the victims must feel so helpless. Especially the untouchables in India at this time. Their situation isn't easy to begin with and for others to make things harder on them for no better reason than personal pride. That's unforgivable.

Thanks for sharing the article.

Jonsgirl · 01-20-2005, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karby

...no. i don't care. i'm sorry, but i just don't. i even tried to force myself to care, and it just isn't coming. so yeah. i don't.
natural disaster is one thing. it can't be controlled. predicted, but not controlled. but when one human pushes another around just for the hell of it, yeah it pisses me off more. and don't gimme that "oh it's culture based, so you should be more understanding" junk. for years the U.S did the same thing to minorities. it was the "natural order" of society. it was wrong then, and it's wrong now.
look, i'm not gonna get angry at the American government just because a tornado wipes out black communities. bit i'd be more upset if the government did little to nothing to help those victims of that hypothetical tornado, simply because they were black.

So, if half the population fell of the planet tomorrow because of a natural disater, it'd be perfectly fine with you? But let people act like they've been raised to act, and suddenly you're all up in arms? Please.
I'm not saying that that they aren't wrong for acting the way they do, I just hink you have your priorities mixed up.
There are 160,000 less people to push around in the world. You should be happy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karby

oh, so just because i'm not faking concern makes me an ignorant souless shithead?

No, it's because you don't care at all. You can't even force yourself to care. I'm glad you aren't faking it, I just don't understand how you *don't* care.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karby

lemme ask you some questions: when millions of Rwandans died ten years as a result of genocide, did you care? did you send millions of dollars to help them? when the Sudanese government waged a campaign raping, killing, mutilating, and kidnapping and selling into slavery the southern black population of Sudan just to get them off of land that rightfully belongs to them, did you care about that too? did you help them in any way? When young children of South America are kidnapped off the street and sold into sexual slavery, do you do anything to stop it? When millions of people, mostly children, die every year of famine and preventable diseases, do you see what you can do to stop it from happening?

Yes, I care. I care about human life, because, you see, I value it. I mourn for victims of holocousts, natural disasters, terrorist acts, the victims of crime, homelessness, and average human pettines.
Do I send millions of dollars to help them? No. I don't have millions of dollars. I don't even see where this question came from. I didn't say anything about you supporting the relief effort of giving up your life saving for starving children everywhere. Give nothing at all, for all I care.
My point is not what you do or don't do to help. My point is that I get upset by people so unmoved by horrendous events.
So, yes I care, I cry, when something happens. I don't bankrupt myself to help them. I don't come up with noble prize winning idea to cease poverty and hunger worldwide. At least, I haven't yet, heh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karby

yet, one tragedy happens, one that no one has any control over, and the victims are made the spotlight of the world, and truly, they should be.

They were the spotlight of this thread, and the reason I talked about them. It didn't occur to me to bring up milllions of other deaths, because it didn't seem to apply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karby

but they're getting help. what about those whose tragedy has been going on for years? i didn't and still don't see anyone putting everything on hold to help them, least of all you.

Least of all me? You don't even know me, thank you. At least I care. Which is more than you can bring yourself to do, it seems.

01-19-2005, 07:46 AM	#1 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	Caste and Culture in India - Tsunami I must claim a large bit of ignorance on this subject but I am hoping that some of you here can help enlighten me. If I have any misconceptions PLEASE help me clear them up. From what I know of the caste system and the culture in India I've heard that if an individual is lame, handicapped, poor, homeless or many other unfortunate situations that the caste system dictates that they are not to be helped - at least not much. I've heard that the belief is that if you have had something unfortunate happen to you that you've brought it upon yourself by Karma or some such force. If others more fortunate help them then they are preventing the handicapped from "earning" a better reincarnation. In light of that - how are the people responding to each other after the recent disaster of the Tsunami? If this IS what they believe then are they refusing to help those harmed, bereaved, or made homeless by the catastrophy?? Is the only help the people are getting coming from America, France, and other countries or are the people themselves helping each other? How do they view what has happened in the generally accepted belief systems of their country?? and if they are helping each other how do they reconcile what they are doing with that I understand as the most common belief system of India?? Are they much fewer people who believe this way that I've been lead to believe?? __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

01-19-2005, 12:59 PM	#3 (permalink)
Jonsgirl Semi-Atomic Location: Home.	Wait.....you don't care that in one day, in barely an hour, more than 160,000 people died, but people living thier lives by a thousands-of-year old caste system....that pisses you off? I don't understand. You're either a humanitarian or you're not. Pick one. You know what pisses me off? Ignorant, souless, &*^%heads that can't be bothered to be horrified by a terrible tragedy just beacsue it doesn't affect them. Can you even begin to imagine the full repercussions of that tsunami? No, of course you can't, otherwise you might actually have to blink and feel some sort of I don't know...emotion. It's not even loss of life alone. It's economic, it's environmental, it's cultural, and so much more. And it will be felt for decades to come. But that's ok, isn't it? Beacuse it happened so far away that if you hadn't taken high school geography, you wouldn't even know where this happened. This isn't directed at you alone, Karby. I just honestly don't understand how this disaster, natural or not, can pass by with so many people not being moved in the slightest. And then to hear you say that it doesn't bother you, but thier very culture- and the normal social reactions based on that culture- do.....well, I really am lost on that one. __________________ Someday, someone will best me. But it won't be today, and it won't be you.

01-20-2005, 09:06 AM	#5 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	Do you happen to know when the Caste system was outlawed?? It's sad that people can't see past their pride and "tradition" to help others. If this was only outlawed in the past 50 years or so we have a long way to go before the caste system is more memory than reality. I've heard that it takes about 3 generations for a cultural system to be laid aside. I admit I don't feel a lot of sorrow over the Tsunami. It's not that I don't think I shouldn't feel sympathy for the losses there. I just personally can't comprehend or empathize because I have never known such a loss. I feel an anger in situations where people cause other's pain or trouble. I have been in that kind of situation. I have not been the victim of a natural catastrophy. Either way the victims must feel so helpless. Especially the untouchables in India at this time. Their situation isn't easy to begin with and for others to make things harder on them for no better reason than personal pride. That's unforgivable. Thanks for sharing the article. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.