'Stand for God' costs teacher his job - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Bill O'Rights · 12-22-2004, 05:55 AM

http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_pg=1640&u_sid=1291280

Quote:

With all the accolades heaped on Robert Ziegler last night, it looked at times like his bosses were giving him a commendation rather than firing him.

Ziegler, 24, a Papillion-La Vista High School math teacher, was described as a "a marvelous young man," "an asset to the community," "honest, candid, capable."

"I hope my son can turn out to be as fine a gentleman as Mr. Ziegler," said Rick Black, an assistant superintendent for the Papillion-La Vista schools.

But Ziegler's bosses also said he repeatedly disobeyed their orders to stop preaching and start teaching.

Black and two other administrators said Ziegler had repeatedly talked about his personal religious beliefs in class, triggering complaints from students and a parent, and would not stop, even after his bosses told him it could cost him his job.

After taking testimony from the administrators and from Ziegler for two hours and 40 minutes Tuesday night, the Papillion-La Vista School Board voted 6-0 to terminate Ziegler's teaching contract on grounds of insubordination and unprofessional conduct.

Board President Valerie Fisher said the evidence was "clear." The board deliberated about 50 minutes.

Afterward, Ziegler said he would not challenge the decision in court. He did not have a lawyer, and he called no witnesses.

About 75 people - including some of his family members from the Riverton, Neb., area - attended the special hearing, which Ziegler requested to plead his case to the board.

Ziegler was a second-year teacher who got his bachelor's degree from Bethel College in Mishawaka, Ind. Bethel is an evangelical Christian college affiliated with the Missionary Church.

At the hearing, he told board members that his case was their opportunity to "make a stand for God."

"You're either for him or against him" he said.

Ziegler said that as a teacher he saw 120 students a day, many with "issues and worries" that were barriers to learning. By giving up their cares to Jesus, the students would be free to learn, he said.

The district's lawyer, Kelley Baker, however, asserted that the law clearly prohibits teachers from imposing their religious beliefs on students and from praying with or in the presence of them.

In a legal brief for the board, Baker wrote that school districts that fail to stop improper practices regarding religion can be held liable for a teacher's actions.

"School administrators have both the right and the obligation to direct teachers not to engage in such activity during school, and to stop it if they are already engaging in it," Baker wrote.

Jerry Kalina, an assistant principal at the high school, testified that a co-teacher from Ziegler's classroom first reported Oct. 4 that Ziegler was talking to students about his religious beliefs in class.

Ziegler was told to stop, but the co-teacher reported on Nov. 1 that he was doing it again, Kalina said.

A few days later, a student came to Kalina's office and said Ziegler was talking about his faith and that it upset her, Kalina said. The student said Ziegler had stopped her in the hall and asked if he could pray for her. She told him she felt uncomfortable while he prayed.

The girl's mother complained on Nov. 8 that she expected her daughter to learn math, not religion, in the class, Kalina said.

Kalina said he again told Ziegler to stop.

He said Ziegler was encouraged to talk to his minister and to contact former Cornhuskers receivers coach Ron Brown to get advice on how to juggle his beliefs and his teaching duties.

On Nov. 16, a student again raised the issue of Ziegler speaking about religion in class, Kalina said. The student said Ziegler wrote on the board "What inspires you to love people?" and another time "If you were to die today, what would you put on your tombstone, and why?"

The next day, a teacher reported that a student was not doing well in algebra because she felt uncomfortable asking Ziegler for help, Kalina said.

Ziegler was placed on administrative leave, with pay, on Nov. 18.

Kalina testified that he would "absolutely" like to have Ziegler back in the classroom, but only if he met one condition: "That he stop talking about Jesus Christ."

"My opinion is Mr. Ziegler was hired to teach math," he said. "And math instruction must come first."

Ziegler testified that his faith was too strong to set it aside.

"What they are telling me to do is in direct contradiction to what my authority, my God, is telling all believers to do," Ziegler said.

He admitted that on some days he spent up to 10 minutes per class discussing religion, though school officials said they had reports of longer periods.

Jim Glover, the principal at Papillion-La Vista High School, said Ziegler wasn't the first teacher he'd seen with strong beliefs.

"Over the last 32 years, there have been a number who have struggled as Rob has struggled. All were able to eventually make the separation," he said.

School board member Jim Thompson said that in eight years on the board, the hearing was the "toughest" meeting he'd attended.

Thompson said he hoped Ziegler could find a teaching job where professing his faith is "not only legal, but encouraged."

Cassie Young, 16, a student in one of Ziegler's pre-algebra classes, was among several students who left the hearing teary-eyed after the board announced its decision.

Young said the decision was "one more way of kicking God out of school."

"The law of man is wrong, and one day everyone will know that," she said.

So, we have a good teacher, that knew his shit, but just couldn't keep his prosthelatizing out of the classroom. Good ridance, says I. But this same poll, on the Omaha World Herald web site is garnering some rather disturbing (for me) results.

Mephisto2 · 12-22-2004, 06:15 AM

This poll should state "Should the math teacher have been fired for repeatedly disobeying instructions from his superiors."

I believe you will find that it is for this reason that he was fired, not necessarily for the topics he discussed.

I was raised a Christian, but if I sent my children to a secular school and a teacher repeatedly ignored instructions to desist from bringing religion into the classroom, then I would support his dismissal.

Poor choice of wording for the poll and poor journalism in the quoted story.

Of course, that's just my opinion and many people on this board (more particularly the politics board) seem to take exception to my opinions.

Mr Mephisto

inharmony · 12-22-2004, 06:24 AM

I have to say yes I think they were correct in their decision to dismiss him. He had been asked to stop and he didn't. Whether or not he felt the kids needed God in their life is not up to an Algebra teacher. I think his calling may be best suited elsewhere in his community.

Averett · 12-22-2004, 06:30 AM

Quote:

On Nov. 16, a student again raised the issue of Ziegler speaking about religion in class, Kalina said. The student said Ziegler wrote on the board "What inspires you to love people?" and another time "If you were to die today, what would you put on your tombstone, and why?"

He should be writing 2+2=??

Yes, he should have been fired. If he wants to teach religion, then he needs to get himself into a school/college that offeres religion courses and teach those.

Charlatan · 12-22-2004, 06:41 AM

Definately fired. Religion has no place in a public school.

Teach at a religious school if you want to preach.

Quote:

"You're either for him or against him" he said.

Looks like he's taken an a play out of Bush's playbook... Nothing like living in a black and white world where greyscale is blasphemy.

pinkie · 12-22-2004, 07:11 AM

Persecution is the price many Christians pay for their beliefs. However, I'm pretty turned off by militant evangelists myself, and I firmly believe that there is a time and a place for everything. I can't tell by the article what they're referring to as "preaching in the classroom." I mean, it's one thing to make a profession of your own faith, but quite another to impose beliefs onto others. I strongly disagree with the latter, but to me it seems like he was just talking about himself. Lots of teachers do this with their students. Still, that is crossing a line unless he was asked about his faith, which is still not concluded. Nevertheless, to take up class time discussing his spiritual convictions is inappropriate by most regulations. He’s young – live and learn.

Bill O'Rights · 12-22-2004, 07:29 AM

Mr M...I actually thought about rephrasing the poll question, but left it as is, because that is how it's worded in the OWH poll. Last time I looked (about an hour ago) it was pretty much a dead heat. Welcome to the "Bible Belt".

pinkie..."He admitted that on some days he spent up to 10 minutes per class discussing religion, though school officials said they had reports of longer periods." That's 10 minutes, at least...per class...per day! It's not a offhanded response to an innocent inquiry regarding his beliefs. If that were the case, I'd have no problem with it.

denim · 12-22-2004, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Looks like he's taken an a play out of Bush's playbook... Nothing like living in a black and white world where greyscale is blasphemy.

Actually, I think he's confused. The hearing wasn't about God or belief in God. It was about him, and his refusal to do his job as given. I'm glad he was fired. Good riddance. If he wants to preach, let him do it in a church.

Mephisto2 · 12-22-2004, 07:33 AM

Pinkie,

He was asked, actually he was instructed, repeatedly to "stop his preaching".
He was told his job was on the online.
He was hired to teach mathematics, not religion or ethics or sociology or anything else
He himself stated that his preaching was what "[his] authority, [his] God, [was] telling all believers to do."
He was therefore acting illegally (if my understanding of the laws banning religion from US schools are correct).

In other words, this guy was asking to be fired.

I have nothing against someone with strong religious beliefs. Indeed, my wife, mother and my mother-in-law are all devout Catholics. But I don't believe we should treat them differently, or consider them above the law, just because they think God is talking to them.

Fired and good ridance. He may have been "a marvelous young man", but he was patently a shit employee as he couldn't understand his contract, his duties, his responsibilities, his obligation to act as instructed and his underlying job.

Mr Mephisto

pinkie · 12-22-2004, 07:40 AM

Why are you addressing me? I agreed that is was inappropriate.

Hash_Browns · 12-22-2004, 07:42 AM

I believe he should have lost his job. He broke the rules repeatedly and therefore, had given up his rights to 'teach'.

I also think this guy was trying to do his part to make an uproar about religion in school and to make a point or some such thing like that. I still don't condone what he did, but just had to say it looks like he was trying to put on a show!

pinkie · 12-22-2004, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

pinkie..."He admitted that on some days he spent up to 10 minutes per class discussing religion, though school officials said they had reports of longer periods." That's 10 minutes, at least...per class...per day! It's not a offhanded response to an innocent inquiry regarding his beliefs. If that were the case, I'd have no problem with it.

What I'm saying is, was he talking about his own faith, or literally "preaching" to others what they should believe in? The article was not crystal clear on that.

Cynthetiq · 12-22-2004, 07:44 AM

Noah took 2 unclean animals and 7 clean animals... and he had 200 unclean and 50 clean.. how many animals did he have?

Samson could lift 300lbs with one arm. How much could he lift after Delilah cut his hair?

would that have been fair for him to teach?

SaltPork · 12-22-2004, 07:46 AM

I say, "See you later, Jesus freak!!". Seriously though, he was told repeatedly to cut it out, so why is it a surprise? He should be a minister if religious convictions are so strong, not a math teacher.

MooseMan3000 · 12-22-2004, 07:54 AM

I'd have to agree that the poll is worded poorly - one possible reason that the poll on OWH was so even. Other possible reasons include, but are not limited to, the people who voted "no" are A) Illiterate, and so they couldn't read the atricle themselves, B) devout Christians who believe they are better than others, or C) Just plain fucktards.

The man was not "discussing" Christianity. "You're either for him or against him" If this is the guy's opinion, I can't even imagine what he would be telling his students. He believed he was in the right, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that he was trying to indoctrinate students with his beliefs. Many students expressed to him that they were uncomfortable with it, and he was repeatedy told to stop.

Imagine, for a moment, that some teacher is a white supremacist. This said teacher calls his black students "niggers." He spends 10 minutes of each class speaking about how his white students are superior to the others. He grades them better, and he treats them better in class. This guy would be fired WITHOUT QUESTION.

So my question is... why would it be different for a devout Christian? It offends me when someone tries to convert me to ANYTHING. It would offend me greatly if this guy took class time to try to teach me how much Jesus loves me. Why am I any different from a black kid getting called nigger?

Why is it even a question if he should have been fired? He wasn't doing his job, he was using class time for his personal benefit, and he was blatantly offending his students. That's all there is to it.

Mephisto2 · 12-22-2004, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkie

Why are you addressing me? I agreed that is was inappropriate.

For two main reasons.

1) I was chiming in, and agreeing, with what you said.
2) Your's was the immediate response above mine, as I replied.

Chill... :-)

Mr Mephisto

pinkie · 12-22-2004, 08:08 AM

Mooseman3000, All teachers disclose themselves personality to their classes. It would be weird if they didn't. There is a big difference in saying "You should do this" and "I do this." Again, the article isn't perfectly clear on that point.
But to compare a group, which teaches hate, to a group that teaches love, is about as ridiculous as you can get. Bad comparison.

Mr Mephisto, Okay, I thought you were arguing what I was saying. My apologies.

jaded · 12-22-2004, 08:20 AM

It does not matter if he was preaching to convert or he was merely talking about himself. Ten minutes a class to spend on things not even remotely related to algebra is not appropriate for an algebra teacher. He could be talking about his religion or his girlfriend\'s cup size for that matter -- either case, he deserves to be fired.

MooseMan3000 · 12-22-2004, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkie

Mooseman3000, All teachers disclose themselves personality to their classes. It would be weird if they didn't. There is a big difference in saying "You should do this" and "I do this." Again, the article isn't perfectly clear on that point.
But to compare a group, which teaches hate, to a group that teaches love, is about as ridiculous as you can get. Bad comparison.

See, I disagree. That's my point. I am just as offended by white supremacists as I am by Jehovah's witnesses showing up at my door. You may not be, but I am.

Would you rather I make the analogy to a Muslim teacher? What if they were teaching their beliefs in a math class? They'd be out on the street in a minute. So now it's a question of racism in and of itself - the Christian Coalition in Omaha wouldn't tolerate a Muslim teacher teaching Islam, but they support a Christian teacher teaching Christianity. This leads me to believe that Christians and the KKK aren't actually so different. Neither group is tolerant of people who aren't like them.

That doesn't stand for all Christians, of course; it's just to make a point.

As far as the article not being clear on whether he's discussing his own beliefs or trying to teach others, I agree with that. It sounds like he's teaching it, but there's no definite proof of that. However, even assuming that he never once tried to "enlighten" anyone (which I don't believe, given the quotes in the article), the very fact that students repeatedly complained about it, and the fact that he called it a "stand for God" indicates that it went too far. He was on his own personal crusade. That's not OK.

Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against Christianity, but my point stands that it is absolutely unacceptable to teach it in a secular school. You can teach ABOUT the religion, sure... but even that would be in a history class. This guy was a math teacher.

pinkie · 12-22-2004, 08:42 AM

Okay Moosman300, I can swallow that pill. Thanks for the clarity.

As far as complaints from students go, I think a lot of people are so put off by the topic or discussion of Christianity that anything involving that subject could be considered offensive.

Halx · 12-22-2004, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkie

All teachers disclose themselves personality to their classes.

I went to school in a fairly conservative community. Most of my teachers were in tune with the class, talking about their personal life a little to establish a rapport with the students. All of them stayed clear of defining their political and religious agendas. Some of them made it fairly clear that they would not share that information under any circumstance because their job was to teach their subject in an objective manner and produce free-thinking students.

Cervantes · 12-22-2004, 08:56 AM

Quote:

"The law of man is wrong, and one day everyone will know that," she said.

Umm okay that's at about the stupidest thing I've heard all day..

Seriously. Concidering the fact that there are a myriad of different beliefs (both organized and personal) in US and that most of the children living with these different beliefs goes to school it should be severely discouraged to preach another faith to them.

It is not only rude but seriously disrespectfull to the ones being forced to suffer through it. Let everyone have their own belif don't try to convert students, they have enough problems as it is just getting through the day and I don't think that preaching about your personal convictions is helping them in any way.

Bobaphat · 12-22-2004, 09:09 AM

What really pisses me off is not that he repeatedly failed to stop preaching despite being instructed otherwise, its that he had to be instructed at all.

tropple · 12-22-2004, 09:10 AM

The man is a fool. I admire his strong beliefs, but I think if he feels that strongly about witnessing and preaching, he should go someplace and be a missionary.

Those kids don't need the preaching time, it is not going to help them pass their finals, nor is it going to benefit them come SAT time.

Bill O'Rights · 12-22-2004, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tropple

Those kids don't need the preaching time, it is not going to help them pass their finals, nor is it going to benefit them come SAT time.

Well...maybe if they pray hard enough...

fibber · 12-22-2004, 09:25 AM

I have a teacher who often discusses nascar in class. It isn't relevant, I don't want to hear it.

Can I get him fired too?

I prefer my teachers to be souless robots beating me over the head with information for me to regurgitate.

Furthermore to uphold the Holy seperation of church and state (a new god yippie!) I forward that my university remove all courses related to theology, Philosophy and any Latin derived language while we're at it because they can be used to imply, refer to, or specify religions.

Yes you get fired for not listening to your boss be he benevolent benefactor or rampaging fucktard.

-fibber

pinkie · 12-22-2004, 09:34 AM

Good angle fibber.

I was thinking earlier, "Where do we draw the line?" My dollars have "In God We Trust" on them! So does my change!!!

*Throws away all my money and pickets the White House*

I agree that after he was asked to stop he should have censored himself, but where do we draw the line? I think it's between saying, "You should" and "I do" personally.

The Prophet · 12-22-2004, 09:40 AM

Ever had a teacher prosetlytize in a classroom? Those students can't leave and it is unfair.

State his beliefs - maybe.

Preach religion to math students - absolutely not.

kurtisj · 12-22-2004, 09:44 AM

i think he deserved it, especially is he was warned. i dont think religioin has a place in public school, thats why there are private/religous schools.

fibber · 12-22-2004, 09:47 AM

Heh, hell yeah I've had 'em preach in the class. We would give 'em the fake nod and then talk about how weird they were between classes. I never noticed any rampant conversion to christinity within the rank and file though.

Of course that was high-school. Now I just use the 25 minute cigarette break when nascar boy gets goin.

-tuelpo

dksuddeth · 12-22-2004, 09:56 AM

If I wanted my kids to have religion taught to them in the classroom, I would have sent them to a private religious school.

Stompy · 12-22-2004, 10:17 AM

Separation of church and state.

People need to recognize this, learn it, and understand what it means.

It would've been better had the students yelled something like, "Fuck Jesus Christ."

That's what I do when people start spouting off religion to me. Maybe not so vulgar, depending on who it is.

[edit]
We had a guy who worked here for a short time who asked one of our tech support agents if they had "been saved." Once I got wind of that, I was so wanting him to come back here and try that stuff on me. I would've tore into him so bad.. it would've been AMAZING.

pig · 12-22-2004, 10:25 AM

yes, fired = good.

as for the question about where to draw the line, in my opinion, of course you don't want your teachers to be souless automatons (although it's getting tougher to individualize the material these days, but that's another matter). Funny thing, however, when I was in high school, I don't think that I ever once had a teacher take out ten minutes of class on a regular basis to tell me anything about their private lives, much less to give me a bible thumpin'. I grew up in S.C., so Bible Belt country all the way. Yet, somehow, over the course of an entire year + hall run-ins over another three, I still seemed to have gotten to know all of my teachers about as well as I wanted to. I wouldn't really care if it was, for example NASCAR or football or soccer or the fluctuations in the international gold market, I would still say it's inappropriate to waste that kind of time on a regular basis...I'm no psychologist, but that's a little OC for me. I think it's a little worse, however, when it is religion (or sexual preference, or politics, or whatever) because of course those subjects are quite likely to make students uncomfortable.

The other thought I had when I was reading the article was trying to imagine how much shit this guy would have taken from students in his class, during class, if he had done this at the high school I went to? I mean, where are the smartass 17 year olds when you need them? Lambs to the slaughter...

Lebell · 12-22-2004, 10:26 AM

While I admire the depth of his conviction, it is inappropriate to proselytize in the class room.

In those circumstances, the best evangelization is how you live your life.

Had a student asked him after school what he believed, or had he been asked to lead a student Bible study, I would support him, but I cannot support this.

Rodney · 12-22-2004, 10:34 AM

A couple of data points.

My first, my _very first_ college class many years ago was taught by a woman who spent the first ten minutes of every class talking about herself; just clearing her head, she said. Somebody complained, and the problem was rectified. She wasn't there to clear her head -- she was there to teach. Same argument to be made with this math teacher; he's there to teach math, not talk about spiritual life on a daily basis.

Second: in high school, I had a math teacher who kept a pile of Watchtowers -- Jehovah's Witnesses literature -- in his desk. Somebody snooped around and found them, and we all had a good laugh (not to his face). The point was, they _stayed_ in his desk. They were for him, not us, and he never once preached at us. I'm sure he was out there every Saturday morning ringing doorbells with the rest of them -- but that simply meant that he knew there was a time and a place for proselytizing, and it wasn't _every place, every moment._

This math teacher sounds like a Jesus drunkard; he's so obsessed with his religion that he can't function normally.

Stompy · 12-22-2004, 10:52 AM

The door-to-door goons are the BEST things to fuck with.

"Hey, are you interested in being saved?"

"Yes!"

"I have this book on Jesus, and.."

"Oh wait, I can't talk about Jesus. I promised my savior and Lord, Satan, that I wouldn't worship that lying fuck. Now excuse me, sir, I need to go back to eating my dinner and masturbating to gay porn."

The look on their face: priceless.

snowy · 12-22-2004, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

I went to school in a fairly conservative community. Most of my teachers were in tune with the class, talking about their personal life a little to establish a rapport with the students. All of them stayed clear of defining their political and religious agendas. Some of them made it fairly clear that they would not share that information under any circumstance because their job was to teach their subject in an objective manner and produce free-thinking students.

I had a teacher who gave us extra-credit if we could discern his political party. It was for an American history class where we covered government, so it was appropriate, and as he had given us no clue whatsoever it was a real challenge. I was the only one who guessed correctly that he was a Democrat (my father's age, long-time teacher and I'd heard or seen nothing to betray any kind of religious belief).

As a future teacher and the daughter of a high school principal, this kind of story always captures my attention. I had a math teacher in middle school who had a bulletin board filled with inspirational quotes and Bible verses. It was small and unobtrusive and behind his desk--and across the top it said "DO NOT READ."

It was the way he brought his faith into his classroom for himself personally and for no one else--a less observant person would have missed it completely. That I have no problem with. But when a teacher talks about their religion or their politics in class without just cause I get irritated. Teachers DO have just cause to talk about religion--such as when their faith might prevent them from presenting a topic objectively. I had one such teacher in high school who admitted that as a devout Catholic it was hard for him to discuss evolution. I appreciated knowing that. But otherwise, a teacher should leave their faith and their politics at home and keep it out of school completely.

School and the classroom should be a place where kids feel safe, not assaulted. Bringing religion into it just makes people uncomfortable. Even in the Bible Belt, where one or two students may not be Christians, the school has the obligation to protect the minority.

All of that said, the guy should have known better than to disobey a direct edict from his superiors. It's rare for a teacher to be fired, really rare. But it seems to me this guy deserved it--not only because he brought religion into his classroom but because he disobeyed his principal.

Lockjaw · 12-22-2004, 11:31 AM

I'm all for any teachers with a vendeta being axed. I can't begin to count the number of teachers I've had give endless monologues concerning everything from women's rights,to the platform of their political party, to racial relations. Shut up!

Painted · 12-22-2004, 12:54 PM

I say, who cares?

I had a fanatic Irish Catholic (from Ireland) history teacher in 11th grade, didnt bother me a bit.

Vincentt · 12-22-2004, 01:14 PM

Ug, I think I might have voted no, but I ment yes!
Some of these stories I think suck.
When a teacher says "prase god" once and gets fired because students are little jerks.
But this time, it looks like he should be applying at a private school. Somewhere he may be better suited.

View Poll Results: Should the math teacher have been fired for discussing Christianity in his classroom?
Yes	93	81.58%
No	17	14.91%
Who cares?	4	3.51%
Voters: 114. You may not vote on this poll

12-22-2004, 06:15 AM	#2 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	This poll should state "Should the math teacher have been fired for repeatedly disobeying instructions from his superiors." I believe you will find that it is for this reason that he was fired, not necessarily for the topics he discussed. I was raised a Christian, but if I sent my children to a secular school and a teacher repeatedly ignored instructions to desist from bringing religion into the classroom, then I would support his dismissal. Poor choice of wording for the poll and poor journalism in the quoted story. Of course, that's just my opinion and many people on this board (more particularly the politics board) seem to take exception to my opinions. Mr Mephisto Last edited by Mephisto2; 12-22-2004 at 06:19 AM..

12-22-2004, 06:24 AM	#3 (permalink)
inharmony Psycho Location: happy place	I have to say yes I think they were correct in their decision to dismiss him. He had been asked to stop and he didn't. Whether or not he felt the kids needed God in their life is not up to an Algebra teacher. I think his calling may be best suited elsewhere in his community. __________________ "You can't shake hands with a clenched fist." Ghandi "Things do not change: We change" Henry David Thoreau

12-22-2004, 07:29 AM	#7 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	Mr M...I actually thought about rephrasing the poll question, but left it as is, because that is how it's worded in the OWH poll. Last time I looked (about an hour ago) it was pretty much a dead heat. Welcome to the "Bible Belt". pinkie..."He admitted that on some days he spent up to 10 minutes per class discussing religion, though school officials said they had reports of longer periods." That's 10 minutes, at least...per class...per day! It's not a offhanded response to an innocent inquiry regarding his beliefs. If that were the case, I'd have no problem with it. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

12-22-2004, 07:42 AM	#11 (permalink)
Hash_Browns Psycho Location: Right behind you...BOO!	I believe he should have lost his job. He broke the rules repeatedly and therefore, had given up his rights to 'teach'. I also think this guy was trying to do his part to make an uproar about religion in school and to make a point or some such thing like that. I still don't condone what he did, but just had to say it looks like he was trying to put on a show! __________________ Smile It makes people wonder what you're up too!

12-22-2004, 07:11 AM	#6 (permalink)
pinkie Helplessly hoping Location: Above the stars	Persecution is the price many Christians pay for their beliefs. However, I'm pretty turned off by militant evangelists myself, and I firmly believe that there is a time and a place for everything. I can't tell by the article what they're referring to as "preaching in the classroom." I mean, it's one thing to make a profession of your own faith, but quite another to impose beliefs onto others. I strongly disagree with the latter, but to me it seems like he was just talking about himself. Lots of teachers do this with their students. Still, that is crossing a line unless he was asked about his faith, which is still not concluded. Nevertheless, to take up class time discussing his spiritual convictions is inappropriate by most regulations. He’s young – live and learn.

12-22-2004, 07:33 AM	#9 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	Pinkie, He was asked, actually he was instructed, repeatedly to "stop his preaching". He was told his job was on the online. He was hired to teach mathematics, not religion or ethics or sociology or anything else He himself stated that his preaching was what "[his] authority, [his] God, [was] telling all believers to do." He was therefore acting illegally (if my understanding of the laws banning religion from US schools are correct). In other words, this guy was asking to be fired. I have nothing against someone with strong religious beliefs. Indeed, my wife, mother and my mother-in-law are all devout Catholics. But I don't believe we should treat them differently, or consider them above the law, just because they think God is talking to them. Fired and good ridance. He may have been "a marvelous young man", but he was patently a shit employee as he couldn't understand his contract, his duties, his responsibilities, his obligation to act as instructed and his underlying job. Mr Mephisto

12-22-2004, 07:40 AM	#10 (permalink)
pinkie Helplessly hoping Location: Above the stars	Why are you addressing me? I agreed that is was inappropriate.

12-22-2004, 07:44 AM	#13 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	Noah took 2 unclean animals and 7 clean animals... and he had 200 unclean and 50 clean.. how many animals did he have? Samson could lift 300lbs with one arm. How much could he lift after Delilah cut his hair? would that have been fair for him to teach? __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

12-22-2004, 07:46 AM	#14 (permalink)
SaltPork Everything's better with bacon Location: In your local grocer's freezer.	I say, "See you later, Jesus freak!!". Seriously though, he was told repeatedly to cut it out, so why is it a surprise? He should be a minister if religious convictions are so strong, not a math teacher. __________________ It was like that when I got here....I swear.

12-22-2004, 07:54 AM	#15 (permalink)
MooseMan3000 wouldn't mind being a ninja. Location: Maine, the Other White State.	I'd have to agree that the poll is worded poorly - one possible reason that the poll on OWH was so even. Other possible reasons include, but are not limited to, the people who voted "no" are A) Illiterate, and so they couldn't read the atricle themselves, B) devout Christians who believe they are better than others, or C) Just plain fucktards. The man was not "discussing" Christianity. "You're either for him or against him" If this is the guy's opinion, I can't even imagine what he would be telling his students. He believed he was in the right, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that he was trying to indoctrinate students with his beliefs. Many students expressed to him that they were uncomfortable with it, and he was repeatedy told to stop. Imagine, for a moment, that some teacher is a white supremacist. This said teacher calls his black students "niggers." He spends 10 minutes of each class speaking about how his white students are superior to the others. He grades them better, and he treats them better in class. This guy would be fired WITHOUT QUESTION. So my question is... why would it be different for a devout Christian? It offends me when someone tries to convert me to ANYTHING. It would offend me greatly if this guy took class time to try to teach me how much Jesus loves me. Why am I any different from a black kid getting called nigger? Why is it even a question if he should have been fired? He wasn't doing his job, he was using class time for his personal benefit, and he was blatantly offending his students. That's all there is to it.

12-22-2004, 08:08 AM	#17 (permalink)
pinkie Helplessly hoping Location: Above the stars	Mooseman3000, All teachers disclose themselves personality to their classes. It would be weird if they didn't. There is a big difference in saying "You should do this" and "I do this." Again, the article isn't perfectly clear on that point. But to compare a group, which teaches hate, to a group that teaches love, is about as ridiculous as you can get. Bad comparison. Mr Mephisto, Okay, I thought you were arguing what I was saying. My apologies.

12-22-2004, 08:20 AM	#18 (permalink)
jaded Crazy	It does not matter if he was preaching to convert or he was merely talking about himself. Ten minutes a class to spend on things not even remotely related to algebra is not appropriate for an algebra teacher. He could be talking about his religion or his girlfriend\'s cup size for that matter -- either case, he deserves to be fired.

12-22-2004, 08:42 AM	#20 (permalink)
pinkie Helplessly hoping Location: Above the stars	Okay Moosman300, I can swallow that pill. Thanks for the clarity. As far as complaints from students go, I think a lot of people are so put off by the topic or discussion of Christianity that anything involving that subject could be considered offensive.

12-22-2004, 09:09 AM	#23 (permalink)
Bobaphat whoopity doo Location: Seattle	What really pisses me off is not that he repeatedly failed to stop preaching despite being instructed otherwise, its that he had to be instructed at all. __________________ --size matters not-- yoda

12-22-2004, 09:10 AM	#24 (permalink)
tropple Junkie	The man is a fool. I admire his strong beliefs, but I think if he feels that strongly about witnessing and preaching, he should go someplace and be a missionary. Those kids don't need the preaching time, it is not going to help them pass their finals, nor is it going to benefit them come SAT time. __________________ +++++++++++Boom!

12-22-2004, 09:25 AM	#26 (permalink)
fibber Tilted	I have a teacher who often discusses nascar in class. It isn't relevant, I don't want to hear it. Can I get him fired too? I prefer my teachers to be souless robots beating me over the head with information for me to regurgitate. Furthermore to uphold the Holy seperation of church and state (a new god yippie!) I forward that my university remove all courses related to theology, Philosophy and any Latin derived language while we're at it because they can be used to imply, refer to, or specify religions. Yes you get fired for not listening to your boss be he benevolent benefactor or rampaging fucktard. -fibber

12-22-2004, 09:34 AM	#27 (permalink)
pinkie Helplessly hoping Location: Above the stars	Good angle fibber. I was thinking earlier, "Where do we draw the line?" My dollars have "In God We Trust" on them! So does my change!!! Throws away all my money and pickets the White House I agree that after he was asked to stop he should have censored himself, but where do we draw the line? I think it's between saying, "You should" and "I do" personally.

12-22-2004, 09:40 AM	#28 (permalink)
The Prophet Tilted Location: Space, the final frontier.	Ever had a teacher prosetlytize in a classroom? Those students can't leave and it is unfair. State his beliefs - maybe. Preach religion to math students - absolutely not. __________________ "The death-knell of the republic had rung as soon as the active power became lodged in the hands of those who sought, not to do justice to all citizens, rich and poor alike, but to stand for one special class and for its interests as opposed to the interests of others. " - Theodore Roosevelt

12-22-2004, 09:44 AM	#29 (permalink)
kurtisj Insane Location: The Wick	i think he deserved it, especially is he was warned. i dont think religioin has a place in public school, thats why there are private/religous schools. __________________ Marvin the Mountie Always Gets His Kurtisj.

12-22-2004, 09:47 AM	#30 (permalink)
fibber Tilted	Heh, hell yeah I've had 'em preach in the class. We would give 'em the fake nod and then talk about how weird they were between classes. I never noticed any rampant conversion to christinity within the rank and file though. Of course that was high-school. Now I just use the 25 minute cigarette break when nascar boy gets goin. -tuelpo

12-22-2004, 09:56 AM	#31 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	If I wanted my kids to have religion taught to them in the classroom, I would have sent them to a private religious school. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

12-22-2004, 10:17 AM	#32 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	Separation of church and state. People need to recognize this, learn it, and understand what it means. It would've been better had the students yelled something like, "Fuck Jesus Christ." That's what I do when people start spouting off religion to me. Maybe not so vulgar, depending on who it is. [edit] We had a guy who worked here for a short time who asked one of our tech support agents if they had "been saved." Once I got wind of that, I was so wanting him to come back here and try that stuff on me. I would've tore into him so bad.. it would've been AMAZING. __________________ I love lamp. Last edited by Stompy; 12-22-2004 at 10:41 AM..

12-22-2004, 10:25 AM	#33 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	yes, fired = good. as for the question about where to draw the line, in my opinion, of course you don't want your teachers to be souless automatons (although it's getting tougher to individualize the material these days, but that's another matter). Funny thing, however, when I was in high school, I don't think that I ever once had a teacher take out ten minutes of class on a regular basis to tell me anything about their private lives, much less to give me a bible thumpin'. I grew up in S.C., so Bible Belt country all the way. Yet, somehow, over the course of an entire year + hall run-ins over another three, I still seemed to have gotten to know all of my teachers about as well as I wanted to. I wouldn't really care if it was, for example NASCAR or football or soccer or the fluctuations in the international gold market, I would still say it's inappropriate to waste that kind of time on a regular basis...I'm no psychologist, but that's a little OC for me. I think it's a little worse, however, when it is religion (or sexual preference, or politics, or whatever) because of course those subjects are quite likely to make students uncomfortable. The other thought I had when I was reading the article was trying to imagine how much shit this guy would have taken from students in his class, during class, if he had done this at the high school I went to? I mean, where are the smartass 17 year olds when you need them? Lambs to the slaughter... __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

12-22-2004, 10:26 AM	#34 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	While I admire the depth of his conviction, it is inappropriate to proselytize in the class room. In those circumstances, the best evangelization is how you live your life. Had a student asked him after school what he believed, or had he been asked to lead a student Bible study, I would support him, but I cannot support this. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

12-22-2004, 10:34 AM	#35 (permalink)
Rodney Observant Ruminant Location: Rich Wannabe Hippie Town	A couple of data points. My first, my _very first_ college class many years ago was taught by a woman who spent the first ten minutes of every class talking about herself; just clearing her head, she said. Somebody complained, and the problem was rectified. She wasn't there to clear her head -- she was there to teach. Same argument to be made with this math teacher; he's there to teach math, not talk about spiritual life on a daily basis. Second: in high school, I had a math teacher who kept a pile of Watchtowers -- Jehovah's Witnesses literature -- in his desk. Somebody snooped around and found them, and we all had a good laugh (not to his face). The point was, they _stayed_ in his desk. They were for him, not us, and he never once preached at us. I'm sure he was out there every Saturday morning ringing doorbells with the rest of them -- but that simply meant that he knew there was a time and a place for proselytizing, and it wasn't _every place, every moment._ This math teacher sounds like a Jesus drunkard; he's so obsessed with his religion that he can't function normally.

12-22-2004, 10:52 AM	#36 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	The door-to-door goons are the BEST things to fuck with. "Hey, are you interested in being saved?" "Yes!" "I have this book on Jesus, and.." "Oh wait, I can't talk about Jesus. I promised my savior and Lord, Satan, that I wouldn't worship that lying fuck. Now excuse me, sir, I need to go back to eating my dinner and masturbating to gay porn." The look on their face: priceless. __________________ I love lamp.

12-22-2004, 11:31 AM	#38 (permalink)
Lockjaw Junkie	I'm all for any teachers with a vendeta being axed. I can't begin to count the number of teachers I've had give endless monologues concerning everything from women's rights,to the platform of their political party, to racial relations. Shut up!

12-22-2004, 12:54 PM	#39 (permalink)
Painted Pleasure Burn	I say, who cares? I had a fanatic Irish Catholic (from Ireland) history teacher in 11th grade, didnt bother me a bit.

12-22-2004, 01:14 PM	#40 (permalink)
Vincentt Addict Location: Tokyo, Japan	Ug, I think I might have voted no, but I ment yes! Some of these stories I think suck. When a teacher says "prase god" once and gets fired because students are little jerks. But this time, it looks like he should be applying at a private school. Somewhere he may be better suited.