Lebell

Let's face it, the real issues most people have is not with smokers or fat-people per se', but with inconsiderate people, who are not limited by sex, age, race or personal vice.

I too could go on a rant about this group or that group, but everytime, I realize that this is the real issue, our tendency to not give a fig how we affect those around us.

Unfortunately, there is also a flip side to this, our own tendency to be intolerant of others.

Consider smoking in a restaurant.

I know full well that people like to light up in restaurants, particularly after a meal and I really have no problem with this, but I also don't want to be overwhelmed by it. Fortunately, many cities require that restaurants have separate smoker areas and this does the trick. Do I still catch the occasional whiff? Yes, but an occasional whiff is ok. Likewise, I do not sit next to the bar and complain if I smell a lot of smoke. But when someone smokes in a clearly non-smoker area, that tells me that person really doesn't care about anyone but themselves and their "rights" and thus they get no respect or sympathy from me.

I myself am overweight, although I wish I wasn't. Unfortunately, when I fly, I will be snug to the person next to me, if that seat is taken (this is especially true in older planes). When the plane is full, that is unavoidable. Yet some direct an almost unreasoning hate towards me (or someone like me) for doing so, but none of it towards the airlines who jam as many seats in each plane as possible. Supposedly I have a choice of "not being fat", when I may or may not have that choice. In otherwords, fat people deserve contempt simply for being fat.

To me this is as unacceptable as saying smokers deserve contempt for simply smoking and again glosses over the basic issue of lack of respect and tolerance for each other.

So I would hope that people can just choose to show a little more kindness and understanding in their lives.

We would all get along better if we did.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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kutulu

Well said. Everyone has their unattractive features or habits. Dealing with any of them really represents a small part of your day and an insignificant part of your life.

ProdigyWill

interesting, I'd honestly never thought of overweight people causing the same unreasoning hate as smoking....but now that I think about it......interesting....

bigoldalphamale

WORD!!!!

ninety09

I don't know... What's your excuse for being overweight?

Lebell

I don't offer an excuse, nor do I appologize.

To do so smacks of justifying it, and I have no further need to do that.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Bill O'Rights

What's your excuse for being obnoxious? It's part of the make up that creates a whole person.

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lurkette

I hope you are joking.

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Lebell

I strongly suspect he wasn't, but we all know there are people that think being fat requires justification or it becomes a moral failing to be ashamed of.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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ninety09

Ermm :/

Unless a person has a certain medical condition, I think that being fat is a choice. I'm pretty sure that 90% of overweight people could lose weight if they really wanted. I know it's very hard, and that it takes a long time.. but it can still be done. So since being fat is usually a choice, why should I be more tolerant? Am I missing something?

Strange Famous

so why should it be excused?

I am overweight, it isnt because I like to be. I have dieted, and lost weight, put it back on, there is a myriad of causes. I am aware and understand at a basic level I am overweight because I consume too many calories and do not burn off enough, but it is not so easy to lose weight as to wish to or an effort of will.

I dont feel so much to be an object of hate for being my size, perhaps more an object of fun. To be a big guy, it is natural to be a clown, it is a role I seem to be expected to play and I fall into myself - somehow to be my size, it is hard to be taken seriously in some occasions/places.

People in the street will come up to you and call you "big fella", "big boy" and so... it is insensitive... if someone was bald, no stranger would walk up to them and casually call them "slap head"... but people always seem to feel it is ok, that one would not mind, to tease or make comments about someone's size.

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for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
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The Gospel of Thomas

Strange Famous

And so you could be a more pleasant and tolerant person, if you really tried. Your genes do not make you like you are, insofar as you are conditioned to be, you have the choice and power to change, to gain empathy and sympathy, to become emotionally aware of other people's reality holding the same validity as yours... so for us both, maybe I should diet, and you should work on being better as well... maybe we shall both see improvements, or maybe not. All one can do is try as much as one can.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

kutulu

Regardless of it being a choice or not, why does it fucking matter if someone else is overweight? It's their life, not yours. They are aware of the health risks. The only time it affects you directly is if you sit next to them in an airplane. Unless you are a supermodel with a flawless body you have no place to talk about offensive appearances.

bigoldalphamale

not to bring up the other threads, but the overarching tone here is one of sentiment toward overwieght people. there was not nearly the same degree of outcry when someone was busting smokers' balls earlier today.

the truth, sad and obnoxious as it may be, is the most people can NOT be overwieght if they had some self control and discipline. just the same way, most people can NOT be smokers. i dont buy into addiction and lack of control or excuses. come to grips with the fact that you have a vice that you dont really care to address and that some people are gonna call you on it. smells like life to me. deal.

jorgelito

I think people are being way too sensitive and blowing things out of proportion.

For example: Live and let live.
Smoke, drink, eat all you want, I really don't care. I only care when your "rights" or lifestyle choices infringe upon mine. Tolerance is not the issue; I think we're ok there, however, I don't need to tolerate other people's choices aversely affecting my life.

I quit smoking cold turkey 3 1/2 years ago. I lost thirty pounds through good ol' fashioned diet and exercise in the past three months. It was my choice and I made a clear decision. I still drink beer and eat steak, I just don't supersize it. I don't impose my lifestyle upon others and expect the same courtesy in return.

In other words, pee in your own pool all you want, but just don't pee in mine.

People need to take responsibility and accountability for their own actions. For example: Credit works by rewarding the responsble user with the best rates and incentives. Conversly, if you don't manage well, you will suffer the negative effects.

I believe obesity and smoking should work the same way in insurance and services. If you're too fat, pay extra for the extra space (i.e. - on an airplane etc.). That way, no one can complain to you and you've paid for it. Health care and insurance should work the same way. The better you take care of yourself, the better the rate, services and care. SO if you smoke, pay a higher premium and shut up all the complainers and whiners that you're clogging the system. If you are healthy and exercise, you deserve a major discount and applause. Maybe a pat on the back for not burdening the rest of us.

I think this is a good idea. It is clear and concise and we knw exactly what we're getting. We can make clear and conscious choices. Something like that.

Also, "big fella" and "big boy" are terms of affection and friendliness. If it bothers you, definitely speak up and say so. Most people don't do it to be malicious, it's just an endearment. Like "Curly", or "Red" or calling the big guy "Tiny". I know lots of bald guys called " Chrome Dome" or "Melon head". I was referred to as "Baldy" for the longest time (for obvious reasons): My response: "Hey, bald is beautiful" *wink*

Good thread, good discussion.

flstf

You are right we should all be more civil to each other. Overweight people make up something like 60% of the population so there aren't many laws passed against them yet. However smokers only make up 30% or so of the population so it's easy to pass all kinds of restrictions. I do not understand how we can justify telling an owner of a bar or restaurant that they cannot allow smoking when all people have to do is not go there.

ninety09

Well I take public transportation everyday and sitting in the bus next to an overweight person can be bothersome.
It also affects me because, since they aren't too healthy, they need more money from our health-system. And it's with my taxes that they pay that they pay that health-system.

Anyway, I don't laugh or ridicule overweight people. But then again, I have a lot of trouble feeling compassion for them, since they (usually) could do something about it.
With that being said, I'll keep reading this thread and maybe my opinion will change.

jorgelito

Hmmmm....Interesting point flstf: However, smoke moves around and stuff, but someon'es obesity will not eke over to your table and give you a heart attack or stroke or cholesterol. So if there's smoking in every restaurant, a non-smoker would be severely limited. Does that make sense? Sort of?

I still think it comes back to choice and respecting one another. Sort of what lebell was saying about being considerate. In a way, it's like the SUV issue. I don't really care what you drive, but please don't park in a "compact space". It just messes things up.

I don't really judge: I have friends who are fat and friends who smoke. But please don't blow smoke in my pregnant wife's face and bitch at me or call me a Nazi (highly offensive) when I politely ask you to take it somehwere else.

flstf

The problem when we start to go down this path is where do we draw the line. If we punish (tax higher) people who are overweight, what about folks with high colesterol, or diabetes, or whose family has a high incident of heart disease? Soon if not already we will be able to determine from people's DNA whether they have a higher risk of many diseases as well as life expectancy. Do we tell these people that we will not cover their children? Do we separate everyone into good genes and bad genes health coverage?

kutulu

Restaurants have the right to be non-smoking if they choose to be, regardless of the absence of local laws restricting it. In fact, there are many and it is becoming more and more common. Nobody forces you to dine at a place that allows it.

Be realistic about the risks of second hand smoke. If all of your exposure is due to restaurants, bars, and passing people outside of buildings you are not going to suffer ANY real consquences. That anti-smoking nazis would like you to believe otherwise but unbiased science would refute it.

Be honest, you don't like the smell. That is it.

flstf

Yes, I agree, no it doesn't but surely the restaurant owners will see an opportunity and open up smoke free places. I just don't think they should be forced into it. People do not have to go to smoke filled places, they can vote with their feet.

jorgelito

Good point flstf: I am actually a big proponent of the "let-the-market-decide" method.

One disclaimer: I occasionally smoke a cigar, but I don't when I eat. Would like to though, at a bar/lounge. Especially if there is jazz and good whisky/brandy.

The difference between second-hand smoke and say, other unpleasant odor (i.e. - cologne, body odor) is that second-smoke is lethal/unhealthy while the others are subjectively unpleasant. I think similarly to how burning rubber tires is bad too. If my neighbor did that, I would definitely complain.

I also think kutulu might/may be underestimating the effects of second-hand smoke. And I wouldn't want to chance it, especially with my wife and child. EX: I don't like having to push a stroller or have my pregnant wife go through a big cloud of smoke in front of buildings. It might not be worth the risk. A good compromise would be - smoking section out back or like in airports, a smoking room.

Does anyone know or have any hard data on this?

Incidently, I think most establishments, both retail and dining, have rules regarding the wearing of cologn/perfume and personal hygiene.

Strange Famous

oh, if only the world could be so egocentric for us all, what would it be?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Paul67

What this all adds up to is that there is nothing worse than a fat smoker, heh,heh.

Thank God I am just a fat former-smoker.

ShaniFaye

Im not fat.....Im big boned!!

I'm overweight....I dont make any excuses either...and Im not ashamed...most of ya'll have seen me and you KNOW Im not shy because I am.....Im lucky that the love of my life cant stand skinny women....In my case I am on medication that makes it impossible to lose weight if I wanted to...so if my big round butt is in your way......Im sure you'll get over it

oh yeah and I smoke too the only intolerance I have is people who feel the need to point out other peoples "problems"

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Suave

If I were overweight, mine would be excessive love of good food.

kutulu

You will have one hell of a time finding unbiased data. However, compare it to things that happen in our everyday lives. We walk through parking lots, sit in freeways, and cook over open flames. The amount of CO (the pollutant with the highest concentrations from cigarette smoke) exposure you get from walking past a smoker cannot be much different than a car passing you in a parking lot. Do you freak out about pushing your stroller through the parking lot when a car drives by? Do you freak out that your kid is standing close enough to the grill to smell the charcoal? Do you keep your kids away from the campfire when you go camping (much worse than second hand smoke due to the much higher volume of smoke being emitted and the fact that people sit and enjoy the smell of the wood burning)?

There is a lot of fanatiscism regarding second hand smoke. Some is based on honest research, a lot isn't. Don't buy into all of it.

skier

From the other thread. Keep in mind however I'm not applying this to people 10 or 20 or even 30 pounds overweight. It's the people that don't even try to excersize, try 2 week fad diets then do back to their previous eating habits (if it made you fat before, why are you going back to it? Try just eating right) etc. and so on. Am I intolerant? Perhaps. I don't prophetize or act rudely to obese people, but inside I feel like they could do something about the 40lb. roll of fat around just their gut. Walking just 20 minutes a day would do wonders. Instead of watching TV go for a walk. That easy.

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"Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim

denim

Fine. Next issue?

Psycho Dad

I've yet to find one person who complained about another person or group that was perfect themself. However I would rather be a smoker or obese than to be so narrow minded that I couldn't appreciate other people. At least a smoker can quit or a fat person can diet. Those with a narrow point of view are going to miss out on a lot of good things in life.

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Don't always trust the opinions of experts.

titsmurf

I agree with Lebell, the realy issue here is intolerance. You have to be tolerant of things like this. If you can't stand other people occasionally bugging you, you shouldn't be living around them. It just happens. Neighbours make too much noise, dogs bark, fat people are fat. That's life in a community for you. There's always an iglo in the north pole for you if you can't take it.

To compare smoking with being fat is really simplistic. A smoker can put out his cigarette and he's no longer a smoker, if he keeps on smoking it's because he doesn't care. A fat person can't become thin in an elevator with you. There's no choice there, no intention.

I think some people in this thread are being assholes. There are enough real problem in the world that we shouldn't be creating any.

smooth

*tada*

consider one found

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OFKU0

Tolerance is the key. I don't care how much someone smokes, drinks, does drugs or is 300 lbs over weight. It's their life, let them live it. As intolerant as it sounds, I really don't care about their lives.

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flamingdog

It just comes back to the same old question though. Yes, you are intolerant. Doesn't matter if you're preaching or bitching at fat people to lose weight, fact is, you're seeing the fat before you see the person. That means you're prejudging them as lazy, greedy, slobbish couch potatoes. And, no it's not fair of you to do that.

It doesn't even matter that being fat or thin is a 'choice'. A lot of you who are saying it's a choice are saying it under the presupposed notion that to be fat is the 'wrong' choice. Well bully for you Mr Thin, but you know it makes you look horribly self-righteous, right?

Why should I try to exercise? What if I like being fat? What if I don't enjoy it? What if I have other things I want to spend my time on? What if I look in the mirror and like what I see? What if my wife prefers me a bit tubby? What then? Why should I comply with your ideas on making my life a better place to be? If you think battling weight issues are more important than finding happiness, then I'm not interested in your philosophy.

scout

Being a somewhat overweight {6'2" 270lbs} smoker living near and working in a very liberal college town I see and feel the discrimination first hand. Although I'm not obese and I don't require two seats on a bus or plane to be comfortable, I hear my share of "big boy" and "big guy" crap and usually it's coming from 150lb pipsqueak of a man haha. What pisses me off the most though is the stringent smoking laws recently passed by the city council, mostly liberals who pride themselves in accepting everyone as they are. You have to be 20 ft. from any door or entrance, no smoking in bars or restuarants, no smoking in any public places or anywhere the public might be, no smoking in private business's if the public has access blah blah blah yada yada yada. It goes on and on. For the most part the bars and a few of the restuarants continue to allow people to smoke in a smoking area and pay the fine. Better to pay the fine than run off the clientale. But few of the old places have closed, directly related to these new laws. If someone invests thousands of dollars in a business in your city and pays thousands in taxes every year they should be allowed pretty much run their business as they see fit within the context of reasonable laws. An excellant example is the place where I work, the owners are looking for property outside the city limits to avoid these new laws, and none of the owners are smokers. They just don't like the government instructing them on how to run their business.

wolf

I have to agree with the whole public transportation thing.

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Lak

Seeing as my original post got closed (the short-sightedly titled "bloody smokers..."), I would like to take this opportunity to apologise for being so heated over the issue.
It's certainly the issue I enjoy getting heated over the most.
I'm not sure where the whole "fat people" discussion came into it, but as far as I understand, didn't it arise from a parody of my own thread which was drawing an anology of my intolerance toward smokers? It seems to have bloomed massively out of hand from a parody...
Yes, I am visciously anti-smoking but shall keep that to myself from now on. I know TFP isnt the place for bitching. I enjoy TFP because I love heated discussions and debates, and being at odds with other people over topics we are both passionate about.
Thanks.

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ignorance really is bliss.

bigoldalphamale

ITS ALL YOUR FAULT!!!!

Lak

Alpha, I enjoyed your parody by the way. I was suprised that people took it so seriously, in particular you mentioned warning PMs from mods...

__________________
ignorance really is bliss.

bigoldalphamale

yeah...sometimes its fun to razz the mods a bit. keeps 'em honest