jaded

i have some doubts/questions/thoughts about religious beliefs. it\'s kind of hard for me to put them into words, probably because i don\'t really know what answers i am looking for, or there\'s any answer at all, so please bear with me.

one of my friends is getting baptized this weekend. she came from another country, and was totally unreligious when we were at college together. now after about a year attending church services, she became a pretty hard-core christian: service every week, 10% of her pay check goes to the church, and finally this week she is getting baptized. i was kind of surprised. it\'s understandable that if one was born and raised in a culture where one was taught from the beginning about the mighty god, one would be likely to be a believer. but for an adult non-believer to convert totally to something she didn\'t trust at all and even laughed at before, it is pretty shocking to me. no significant events happened in her life; she just got bored one sunday and was dragged to the service by one of her friends, and thus got started.

then i started thinking about religions in general. to all the believers out there, do you believe there is only one god, your god? and if your answer is yes, just assume, if you were born and raised in another part of the world, where you were taught by your parents from your childhood that no god exists or some other god instead is the almighty power, wouldn\'t you believe in that god or no god at all? then if so, why does one believe in any particular deity at all? just because one happened to be born into a certain religious culture and was made to believe certain ways?

it\'s puzzling me. no offence intended to anyone.

tropple

When people go from non-christian/non-beleiver to christian, it's usually a pretty hard fall. I don't think I've ever seen a conversion from one extreme to a middle-of-the-road stance.

Though a change from middle of the road to one extreme or the other frequently happens.

People who are strongly affected by religion are those who need to have a group in support, whether a church family or huge extended family. Sometimes a person can feel really empty and homesick and a church could fill a large need that they may not be aware of at a conscious level.

Whatever the reason, stand by your friend. Perhaps it's only a temporary insanity.

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flstf

I am not a Christian (was as a child) but as I understand it, you have to accept the Jewish tribal god and his son Jesus Christ as the only god or you will go to hell.

If you are born into another culture and raised in another religion, you have to reject it and accept Christianity or you too will go to hell.
If I'm not mistaken, according to some parts of the Bible, ignorance of the Jewish tribal god is no excuse.

Baron Opal

I believe that there is one God who has a multitude of servants (angels). I believe that humans are a limited race and have an incomplete understanding of God. Different cultures have different expectations as to what the ideal being would be and what paradise that being would create for those who follow His tenants.

When Christ said (paraphrasing) "The only way to our Father's kingdom is through me." I feel that it was at least partially allegorical. To his audience at the time he preached a path of tolerance, understanding and responsibility that was unique to Himself. The real message is that the keys to the kingdom are granted to those who embrace Love in their hearts and are compassionate to their fellow man while maintaining responsibility. Christ said "Love your Lord God with all your heart and soul. Love your neighbors as yourselves. On these two things depend all the laws and the prophets." (Again, paraphrasing) That's pretty simple, really. No specific ritual. No mention of specific names. Love and respect others and your spiritual creator.

Now, if you want to follow Christ's lead in specific, there are plenty of churches about who can help with that. But following those two laws is pretty much all you need to do. Which, I think, most people try to do unconsiously. But then again, I fall into the "People are inherently good" camp, which some friends of mine consider insipid.

Expanding the nutshell of my faith a bit more-

1) There is a God.
2) He really doesn't care by what name you address Him.
2a) He doesn't have a gender, "He" is a convention.
3) He wants people to love and care for one another.
4) He wants us to use our intellect to grow and understand the world we live in.
5) Hell is not lakes of fire and chains of ice, it's being separate from Him. If you are in hell, it is by your own doing by casting aside love for things that can return it (people) for things that can't (money, possessions).

There it is. I hope that answers your questions.

(Oh, I do consider myself Christian, if somewhat unconventional.)

Halx

I personally find the belief in a god.. let alone the practice of religion.. to be quite ridiculous. I look at everything that happens in every-day life and I just cannot envision or recognize any force in play other than the ones I learned about in physics, psychology and sociology. There is no other factor that makes me go "hmm" nor is there any voice in my head that I do not attribute to my own self. The very same things that happen to me also happen to people of faith, so what's the deal?

Basically, I'm saying that our physical world is obviously (to me) completely untouched by 'godly' forces. It's all science. The true question to ask me is, "Is there an afterlife?" To which I would respond, "No."

The requirement to get into heaven, for many of these faiths is simply "to have faith and to do good by it." I don't know.. maybe I'm hard to impress, but those guidelines are fairly .. well.. I don't know how to explain it. When I imagine an all-powerful being who created an entire world and let his little creatures runamok, I don't imagine him REQUIRING his creatures to all act like sheep. Personally, if I created my own little world, I'd let my lil' fellas do whatever the fuck they wanted and I would just enjoy watching the drama that developed. If I wanted them to hang out with me after they died, I'd probably just choose the cool guys with personality, not the uptight stone-faced pious nuts.

I think about this and I come to the realization that the rules of organized religion were devised to control people. There just isn't any other way about it.

So, why is the belief in God even necessary? Hmm.. I wont get into that 'cause that's the subject of the next installment of the Book of Halism. The basic message I wanna get across is... if there IS a God, I'm sure he'd be fine if you were just an overall cool, nice person who tried to make the world a better place. I mean, if God WAS as stuck up, self-absorbed and 'holy' as the churches make him out to be, I wouldn't wanna even nod my head to him, let alone kneel and praise him.

Cliff Notes: There is no god. Just be a good person and everything will turn out fine either way.

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Stug

Hey Halx, if there is no god. Who are you trying to impress by being a good person?

Just a thought...

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and so ends the thought process for another day...

d*d

That's the point of Faith Hal no need for proof, in fact if there was proof it wouldn't be faith - I respect people who manage that degree of faith and beleive in some abstract notion of a higher power, I certainly can't do it and used to believe these people were deluding themselves in some way, I still find the idea that somebody can beleive so much in one definition of a god to the exlusion of all other definitions, since different religions don't sit side by side very easily, difficult to rationalize to myself. But then I think I'm missing something, it's my failing that I can't prescribe that level of faith to myself.

martinguerre

one of the greatest gifts of the Spirit, IMO, is to be able to see beyond one's perspective.

Honestly, i don't think the same thing happens to me as most people on this earth...my reasons for faith will be quite different from others.

Often, yes. But does that mean throw out baby with bathwater? The answer to legalism is grace, not lawlessness.

honestly...it seems like you've had a pretty bad run in with Christian theology and practice...and i'm sorry that's the case. but your tone is both certain and closed off...something you might actually share with the folk you decry.

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Bill O'Rights

Do you really have to be trying to impress anyone, spiritualy or not, by being a good person? Can't you just be a good person simply because you are a good person? Or, how about being a good person because that is the best way to effectively get along in society, and not simply because of the carrot of "life everlasting" being dangled on a stick?

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"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

vox_rox

Nope, it answers nothing, and it says nothing. Theonly way your five rules work, on any level, is if you start by be;leiving the premise stated in number 1, which I don't and many others do not. And, the obvious problem here is that he is a God, and he "wants people to love and care for one another" yet he does nothing to further that agenda.

I suppose if you fear living in hell "without him" might scare you into being loving and caring, but I doubt that very much. I an loving and caring without God, and many beleivers are not, so why the disparity? And is fear the only motivator this GOd has and, if so, does that not display a stark inability to cement his wants and desires into a human model that exemplifies that?

Sorry, it's very weak, and although I respect your need to believe in a God, and I respect that you may need these guidelines in your life, they represent chains and cages for others that already have found peace in their life without the artifice.

Peace,

Pierre

tecoyah

It is my opinion, that this God entity we all attempt to define, in only real in the minds of those who have faith in it. That would mean it is a falsehood for those of us who do not accept such things on faith alone. I would agree with the statement that science does a great job of explaining this world we inhabit, and the usefullness of some creator entity is quickly fading.
I prefer to think of all the pieces of the scientific puzzle as "God" and accept my limited understanding of the interactions of matter and energy as the basis for my faith. Indeed I have faith, in science and theory. It is unfortunate that organized religions (western at least) find it appropriate to disenfranchise those in the scientific set, by sticking with outdated dogma, rather than changing with increased knowledge as it has in the past.
As a reformed Catholic, currently Pagan, I still understand the draw of Christian/Catholic faith, but have no further need of it, and I personally feel the better for my loss of this particular form of worship. That said, followers are not wrong, in any way, they are simply doing what they feel works for them. My only dissapointment is the failure of these people to allow me to be who I am.....and stop damning me to Hell.

As a side note...I will say that if this paradise they proclaim is endowed with such negativity and hatred as the current Dogma portrays.....I would prefer to be elsewhere.

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Stug

It's not that I'm living my life trying to impress the socks off of God. lol

And I understand what you mean if what you're saying above means: Being kind is it's own reward.

But if you except the premise that there is no God (which personally i don't), then why be a good person?

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and so ends the thought process for another day...

MSD

I'm thinking a lot along the same lines as him, maybe with a "Blind Watchmaker" God, like many deists believe in, and being a good person just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

f6twister

Do you believe there is only one god, your god? Yes

If your answer is yes, just assume, if you were born and raised in another part of the world, where you were taught by your parents from your childhood that no god exists or some other god instead is the almighty power, wouldn't you believe in that god or no god at all? Yes

Then if so, why does one believe in any particular deity at all? Just because one happened to be born into a certain religious culture and was made to believe certain ways? I think that pretty much covers it. We obviously learn our facts about religion, at least initially, from those who raise us. I was technically born to a Catholic family but my parents were not hard core Catholics. We only went to church for weddings, funerals or when my aunt (a Catholic nun) came to visit. When I met my wife, she brought me to a Lutheran service at her church. I found that their thoughts and believes matched the ones I had developed once I started giving religion thought independent of how I was raised. I now have a son and plan to raise him as a Lutheran. Should he choose to go his own route when he becomes an adult, that will be his choice.

The most drastic change I ever saw was a friend about ten years ago. He was a drinking, pot smoking, fighting rebel who was removed from his home for kicking the crap out of his dad. He was also atheist. One day, a mutual friend who is a born-again Christian had him read a bible passage. It made him, as he put it, get a very strange feeling inside, then he sat down and cried. From that point on, he was a born-again Christian and gave up the pot, drinking and fighting. He preached to all of his friends and encouraged others to attend his church.

I guess it comes down to everyones personal perception of what we can't see. Can anyone here say for sure that any god truly exists and provide proof? No. Can anyone deny that things have happened in this world which have never been explained? Yes. While I believe in only my God, I have no right or reason to deny that there could be another God out there. I just go with what I believe and leave the rest of the religious world to their own beliefs.

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Zeraph

"I contend that we are both athiests. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

-Stephen F. Roberts

snowy

Baron Opal's list kinda summed up my own beliefs, but I'll make a more specific list of my own.

1. I believe in a god and a goddess that function as two parts of the same godhead.
2. I believe in a personal messiah, Jesus Christ.
3. I believe in a life after death.
4. I do not believe in sin, salvation or any notion of punishment in the afterlife. I do, however, believe in karmic balance. Things will go better for you and there will be less resistance towards you in the world if you give, do good and love others.
5. I believe that there are several paths to the same mountain, and I believe there are many faces and facets to faith, personal belief, and spirituality.
6. I do not practice organized religion. I prefer to practice individualized spirituality.
7. I do not believe in converting people to a belief system. People have to arrive at belief and faith through their own path. The only thing I can do is be encouraging.
8. I do not believe in a hell; in the afterlife, as Baron Opal said, hell is the absence of god. It's not meant to be a punishment. But the absence of god is also the absence of love.
9. God is love, quite simply, and love is everywhere. In my mind, denying the existence of my creator is denying the miracle of love and life that surrounds me.

I was an atheist for quite a while and raised by an atheist father and a rather new age-y mom. But I have since found and established a system of belief that works for me. That's the important aspect of spirituality: does it work for YOU? Does it make YOU feel good? If non-belief is what satisfies you, that's your bag, baby, and I'm not going to hold it against you. I may be a little sad for you, simply because my spirituality is such a fulfulling part of my life. But if it DOES fulfill you, then I'll be happy for you.

I only ask that others ask and seek what the truth is, and find and establish that truth for themselves while never forgetting to keep searching for the truth. There's always a new one out there, a new piece to the puzzle, and regardless of your belief system, searching for truth of all kinds is valuable and enriching to the human existence.

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miyamotomusashi

I know some very religious people. Two of them I are preists. One is very open to others beliefs. Buddhist, Christian (any denomination), Muslim, Jewish, agnostic, athiests... The other is some what more traditional. He has the more there is only one god and the Muslim, Jewish, and Christian god are the same god. In my family one side (my mothers) was never very religious. It has to do with a mean rabbi who was also a bookie (or something) that my grandpa (who was a kid) hated. When the cops came and took the rabbi away my grandpa didn't look into religion until he was 80. And when he did it was more in an academic way. His father was a butcher at non kosher butcher's shop... My father side is more complex. I am a jew my father and his family are roman cathlic. Most of the people in my father side of the family are not religious at all. Though a few (a sister and her father in law) are very religios. She wont even alow her mother to talk about things like psychic mediums in her presence.

Ancer to the question.
No (look at hinduism it could bee said there one god that every thing is a part of in that religion, and other non western religion they don't have the same concept of a god). No (look at all the missionary work, all the religious conversions that have and continue to happen). Hope, Stupidity, Conformity, Threat of force or violence, or for me I was born a jew and have found no religion that i see as superior to betray my jewish heritage (Though I have a realy big opposition to most christian denominations...)

Halx

My fellow man. It's my belief that the only afterlife is in the memory and thoughts of others. As well, there are only two things you can do to affect this; hurt and help. Do enough of either and you will live forever.

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Kalnaur

Hmmmm.

I believe that there is a God. IF he has a name or what that name is I have yet to discover. However, I do not believe in him in what I percieve to be the method of other "christians". As thus:

I figure God wants us to choose being good. He gave us free choice and hopes we do the ethical, not moral thing. Morals are a creation of religion. I have no faith in religious doctrine as a whole. It did lead me in the direction of my current beliefs, but has the appearance of being a bit shallow; an unavoidable consequense of it's man-made creation.

I think God, such as he is, wants to reward us all for doing good for our fellow man, not for God himself. Once we know that each individual should strive for the good of his fellow men (and women), God's "work" is done. I put this in quotes because unless you ask God for help, he won't. Help, that is. It is a lesson of reliance on yourself to make a decision and sometimes a reliance on others to help us bring our decisions to fruition.

I think that Jesus is, in some cases, clearly misunderstood. The way it appears to me, God was all fire and brimstone until Jesus came around. So we say God is all knowing, but what if he didn't truly understand the limits he placed on us? He would know what the limits were, but who's to say he truly understood them. So he was pissed most of the Old Testament because it seemed like we as a race were trying to piss him off. Then he bocomes human (jesus) and a light dawns. He says to himself, "Damn, kiddos, I'm sorry. Bad comunicando here." He then asked us to believe that Jesus died on the cross for us because it was his bridge of god and man that he built. He learned of our pain and became less prone to immolate cities and such. In short, he was all knowing and loving but not on the same wavelength as us.

This all relies on the idea of a God not as perfect as the church would have us believe. A being definitly higer, but not always "right". He is not perfect; he is all knowing, all seeing and all powerful, and embodies love. He is not all understanding or without fault. He can see all possibilities and probabilities, but not the absolute future, just the path that would most likely be the best.

So why worship an imperfect God?

Hell, the Norse, Greeks, Romans, Egyptians and many more had imperfect gods. This one I seem to have found a foothold in just seems to be several of their gods at once. They worshiped them because they were freaking gods. And he promises one hell of a retirement package, too. As for Satan, he's just a pissy bitch who's sore that he lost a fight he picked. And he'll push people towards the unethical and unreasonable path whenever he gets the chance to with fuzzy logic and shallow promises. Sounds an awful lot like most churches, doesn't he?

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jaded

like some of the posters above, one of my main concerns with christianity is its need to condemn all the non-conformers. if you do not beleive in god, you are going to hell; if you believe in any other god, you are going to hell; if you believe in more than one god, you are going to hell; if you (fill in the appropriate content here), you are going to hell. that just sounds more like a threatening full of hatred to me. there are religions in the world that are much more lenient and mild, buddhism for example. anyone can become a buddha if she/he achieves enlightenment and realization through self-cultivation and pratice in everyday life. i do believe there is some super power up there; what it exactly is i do not know. but please, to quote tecoyah, \"allow me be who i am\", believe in what i believe, explore what i know not, and please \"stop damning me to hell\".

thenewguy

I believe in the value of coincidence, and that paying attention to coincidences can lead one to believe in everyday miracles. If the collective force of those coincidences counts as a god, I believe in one - if not, I don't.

I think they do, and I try to pay as much attention as I can. The most important thing I've learned about my 'god' so far is that it is much, much, much more pervasive than I am - so it's taught me to be right-sized. Or, you could say, humble.

As far as what you believe - just remember it's only what you believe and I don't need to benefit from the joy you are experiencing. Thinking that your beliefs need to be mine is nothing short of blatant self-centered ignorance. It seems pervasive in people who claim to be religious.

I was brought into a Christian church as a kid and exposed to religion, but it seems really stuffed to me. Do all this stuff now so you can get to heaven later. Sorry - later I'll be worm food.

A close friend gave me the best sage on religion one afternoon. He said, "This is the remedial planet. Don't expect to see any burning bushes or become some enlightened soul. Just get up every day and do your best not to hurt anyone, including yourself."

So that's what I try to do. And I try to pay attention...

Tophat665

Look, belief in a gaseous vetebrate that has nothing better to do that eternally punish those who transgress its arbitrary and mutually contradictory regulations would be kind or cute, in a mutant, two-headed tortoise sort of a way, if the folws who did believe just that were ready, willing, and able to kill those who think it's a stupid frickin' idea.

I am pretty sure that there is no go in the sense that most people mean when they say they believe in one. Whether or not there is an intercvconnection between all humans on some level is an open (if far-fetched) question. Mostly, I think that God is just the echoes in people's heads of their own higher brain functions, and that religious faith is just self confidence misplaced. (Certainly it is some sort of confidence game.)

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Tophat665

Look, belief in a gaseous vetebrate that has nothing better to do that eternally punish those who transgress its arbitrary and mutually contradictory regulations would be kind or cute, in a mutant, two-headed tortoise sort of a way, if the folks who did believe just that were ready, willing, and able to kill those who think it's a stupid frickin' idea.

I am pretty sure that there is no god in the sense that most people mean when they say they believe in one. Mostly, I think that God is just the echoes in people's heads of their own higher brain functions, and that religious faith is just self confidence misplaced. (Certainly it is some sort of confidence game.)

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d*d

That smacks of the superiority that aethiests think they have over people who beleive in their God(s), ah bless em, it's just the echoes in their heads of higher brain functions you have as much chance of proving that as you do of proving gods existence, it's fine not to beleive in god but as an opinion it is no more valid than others.

Halx

Such logic will get you nowhere. It sounds very defensive too.

All you have to do to understand an atheist's point of view is this: Tell a subordinate of yours (child, employee, friend) that you are entitled to be addressed as 'sir' and only 'sir' from now on. You will probably receive the question 'why?' and you are to respond with 'because.' Observe their reaction.

Now, if this subordinate of yours had been raised and influenced all his or her life to call you by 'sir' then this would not be a problem, but the very notion of approaching this person, who already has a different name to call you by, actually submitting to your request is presumably absurd. People just do not command that kind of power over other people in today's society.

As always, people will look to explain things with the knowledge they have. If you've taken psychology classes before, then you're probably well aware of the process of diagnosis. Well, how do you classify someone who feels and reacts to something that to your best intuitions *does not exist*? Well, you diagnose this person with some degree of schitzophrenia. Now, I'm not calling people who believe in god schitzophrenics. Maybe just the people who think Jesus actually speaks to them, though. However, these same psychology classes will teach you that memories, feelings and sensations can be *taught* to people without them ever having actually experienced them. It's a lot easier to do thanyou'd think, too.

Society does it. They actually do it in a very blunt fashion too. Nearly every day of your life, you are bombarded with the undisputed notion that god does exist. This is social engineering at work. Now, as someone said to me earlier in this thread, the concept of faith is that it does not have to be proven to you in order for you to believe. Now, to the discerning individual, this sounds a lot like giving your car to a stranger who says he's gonna wire you $30000 tomorrow. It's also like someone telling you that they deserve your total complete respect and you must only call them 'sir' ... and you cannot even see proof of their superiority. You're left to assume, to piece together ideas with your dissonance.

God is nothing but a mental teddy bear.

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Stug

That's a great answer!

It's my personal belief (currently) that what we call God is everything and everyone. By being everyone and indeed everything God gets to experience and feel everything. He/She/It is omniscient and omnipresent. And as the human race and universe continues to grow, so does God. Therefore the Golden Rule (which appears in almost every religion in some form) has never been more important:

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MacGuyver

Hal's reasoning pretty much encompasses why I chose to not believe. I would much rather be open minded to everything around me and the ideas of everyone, because no one so far has been able to legitimately answer the smallest, yet biggest, questions of them all: Why, How, Who, Where, What, When. Until I have some legitimate proof, I'm not going to affiliate myself with anyone in particular. In a sense: I AM religion. I am everything. Because I do not know what is right. And I listen and understand all that is around me in religion. Peace, Love, and Understanding. Can you do the same?

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---Aristotle

Deeds, not words, shall speak [for] me.
---John Fletcher

Baron Opal

True, the rest follow from the first premise, that there is a divine being of some sort. This has been sufficently proven to me my my experiences. Given the nature of these experiences I wouldn't expect anyone else to believe based on them (They weren't Burning Bush / Road to Damascus situations ) And I think he does further that agenda. He inspires people often and has given us free will and reason. Prophets all around the world bear the same message. But he can't interfere directly, else we would lose our free will, and thus our ability to grow and achieve.

What fear? There is no fear. If I choose a life that disdains love and God, that's my decision. If I walk away and choose to isolate myself from God there is no punishment handed down. There is just the isolation that I imposed upon myself.

God is not some aged sage sitting upon a golden throne among the clouds. God is not physical in any sense you and I would comprehend. I am certain that whatever does await us after death is outside this physical universe. Also, I don't see how a creed of Love, Respect, and Responsibility is a set of "chains and cages". It certainly prevents me from committing crimes, but I don't think that' what your getting at.

If you follow the same creed, I'm sure we'll meet on the other side.

Baron Opal

There is no need to impress. Acting "good" isn't showing off for God. It is its own reward as the love and respect you show other people is returned to you. It furthers relationships and societies.

(Not that Halx can't answer for himself, but just thought I'd jump in.)

tropple

I suspect it's someone he's trying to lure into the sack ;-)

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MacGuyver

These aren't directed at anyone in particular, I'm just using Baron's words as reference. This is still for the general consensus of you.

What people have to understand is that some of us choose this isolation. If we want it, let us have it. I am ready to accept my own confinement. Are you?

If there is another side, I think that reguardless of creed, there will be no segregation and we will all see each other and those we love on the other side.

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We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit.
---Aristotle

Deeds, not words, shall speak [for] me.
---John Fletcher

Halx

I think it's come to the point where hearing or reading about people talking about god feels almost anachronistic. Such values are centuries dated. There is a reason why you will find a higher percentage of atheists and "social liberals" in open communities online than you will in your average coffee shop - communication, shared learning, and evolution.

Back in 'the day' (ya know, when Germany used to be "Prussia") the catholic church viewed the jewish community as not only heathenistic, but, by today's definition, too conservative. The edification of the jews, which included the infusion of catholic ideals into the basic worship structure, was deemed 'The Enlightenment." It was basically the evolution of the jewish society to fit into the modern age.

The churches have gone through several of these evolutionary periods to get to where they are today, to where you base your beliefs upon. That means, basicly, that the values that you believe in today will no doubt change further as the human society lives on. Centuries from now, your core beliefs and rituals will be obsolete. Everything that this culture represents is slowly becoming more 'liberal.' Unless our culture is taken over by another (for example, Romans taking over Greeks and bastardizing their culture) it will continue in this progression.

If left to it's own devices, I feel that our culture will make the belief in god obsolete. You can all thank the internet.

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[Don't Feed The Animals]

ngdawg

I married into a religious family. I have a Jewish mother and a recovering Catholic father. One time in my in-laws church, the minister, during his sermon, announced that those who do not believe in Christ and God will burn in hell forever. Hello???? Who is HE to tell me I'll burn in hell?
I prefer to think of myself as spiritual. There is no God up in Heaven making judgement lists. There is no Hell waiting on sinful souls. We make our own heaven and hell as we choose to live our lives. Being good or kind should be because it's the proper thing to do, not to reserve a spot in a nonexistent location.
We are life forms and we live life cycles, just like roses, oak trees and rats. How we live and treat others will determine which we most resemble at death..I'm shooting for a rose...

aurigus

Halx, It sounds like your and my ideas about God and religion are about the same.

I used to spend a lot of time in the #atheism channel on irc (efnet). We had people come in all of the time to try to convert us, it was almost funny to see their logic. We could out-debate them any day, any time because the logic used to hold up religion and god just does not work. Usually it turned into a shouting match on the behalf of the converter and we would end up kicking them.

I firmly believe that religion was invented as a way to control humans. How do you control everyone? You can't watch over everything they do, so you invent a way that no matter where they are, what they are doing; they are being watched and judged. Their ultimate reward, or punishment, is heaven or hell, eternal bliss or suffering. I think when you die, you are turned into dirt. Which isn't all that bad in itself, if a letdown from what the major religions tell us what happens when you die. A lot of people refuse to believe that because they are afraid of what happens when you die. I am not afraid, I just accept it for what will happen and what has been happening for millions of years.

One of the big reasons why I disagree with organized religion is that it is totally dependent on what you are taught growing up. Each religion thinks it is right. No matter what happens "in the end" - over half the people in the world got it wrong.

Another reason I disagree with organized religion is that it is used time and time again to make good people do "bad" things in the name of God (or Allah, or whatever their god is). When we talk about "good" - someone has to define good. I use the Golden Rule. But, religions use their people for their own goals, some of which do not follow the golden rule which I consider the ultimate rule.

I also find a lot of Christians hypocrites. They only use the bible for when it suits their needs, but they will forget parts entirely when it doesn't. How many Christians work on Sundays? The bible obviously says this is the day of rest. How can you endorse only some parts of the bible?

ngdawg, I'm with you. My everyday actions and overall life goals are in many ways "good". I consider what others think of me and want to leave good legacy when I die; and you can die any day. I consider myself spiritual but not in a religious sort of way.

Kalnaur

For those that do not believe that anything beyond the physical can or does exist, just scroll on by this post.

The God I believe in has never asked me to adress him in any way in particular. I say, "what's up, man"; he says "I would tell you, but it's a bit much for you all at once. let's just say I'm doing 'stuff'. How're you?"

I don't know where the church get's this idea of an uptight God. He seems rather relaxed, though sometimes a bit depressed, to me.

Remember, God is not religion. God did not make religion as a path to him. Man made religion in thinking it would lead to God. And man is falible.

__________________
PC: Can you help me out here HK?
HK-47: I'm 98% percent sure this miniature organic meatbag wants you to help find his fellow miniature organic meatbags.
PC: And the other 2 percent?
HK-47: The other 2 percent is that he is just looking for trouble and needs to be blasted, but that might be wishful thinking on my part.

Halx

Even if you have a "different relationship" with what you perceive to be god, you're still acknowledging that there is something there that doesn't actually exist. It somehow has some influence on your life, or else it wouldn't be a god would it? In my opinion, you are letting an imaginary force shape your perceptions and behaviors.

__________________
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-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]

Kalnaur

How do you know that God does not exist? Do you have any proof that God does not exist? What does it mean for something to exist? Does it need to be physical in makeup? Do you then believe that anything beyond the physical realm does not exist?

Also, God has no hold on my life that I do not allow him to have, even if he was willing to lead my life for me (Which he is not. That's the devil's work, not God's). Similar to my wife; she has a part in my life only because when all is said and done, I wish for her to be a part of my life and she desires to be a part of my life.

__________________
PC: Can you help me out here HK?
HK-47: I'm 98% percent sure this miniature organic meatbag wants you to help find his fellow miniature organic meatbags.
PC: And the other 2 percent?
HK-47: The other 2 percent is that he is just looking for trouble and needs to be blasted, but that might be wishful thinking on my part.

tecoyah

If it cannot be at least,given some form of credence through theoretical experiment. Or proven through base fact....it is not in my reality. It is not my Job to Prove the existance of something I have little reason to believe in the first place. There are no existing , physical manifestations of said entity, and thus no basis in the reality I percieve.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Kalnaur

And therefore, in the reality that you have defined God truly does not exist.

__________________
PC: Can you help me out here HK?
HK-47: I'm 98% percent sure this miniature organic meatbag wants you to help find his fellow miniature organic meatbags.
PC: And the other 2 percent?
HK-47: The other 2 percent is that he is just looking for trouble and needs to be blasted, but that might be wishful thinking on my part.

TexanAvenger

One of the main reasons that I never really bought into religions is the control factor. Why would a god create the universe only to control everything in it? It's pointless. Think of it like an experiment: the more you interact, the less valid it becomes. If god is omniscient and omnipotent why would he/she/it bother to do whatever it is that it does, since it already knows the outcome?

To me, you are your own god. The world around you, the one you experience, is your universe. You are the one who controls the state of the (your) universe. If you are generally "good," then you will have been "good." If you are "bad," then you've been "bad." Your experiences do nothing but add to the collective sum of each individual universe. Maybe when you die this thing we call consciousness collects with every other one and forms what we believe to be god. Thus, this god is only the complete collective experience of the universe, not some father figure from the dawn of time who commands respect. Maybe not. I don't know, I'm not dead yet. But I'll tell you what, when I get a chance/die, I'll ask god whether or it exists.

Recap:I don't believe there is a god. Omnipotence, while a fun toy, is pointless. I believe in you, but not your meddling dieties too. Maybe there's an afterlife. Maybe there's not. When I die, I'll tell you either way.