Kalnaur

That is what I thought. I am going to wager that you do not believe in anything you can't see. Thus I can not argue anything with you, because you do not have the same frame of reference as I do. I have experienced things in my life that are proof enough for me that there is more to this world than what we can see. I have felt ghosts, heard God, and seen small miracles that daily reinforce my opinion that God exists. However, I can no more use the experience and insight I have gained to try to inform you than you can persuade me that it does not exist.

I have obviously had things happen in this life that have not happened to you in any of your lives; so shall we just agree to disagree?

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PC: And the other 2 percent?
HK-47: The other 2 percent is that he is just looking for trouble and needs to be blasted, but that might be wishful thinking on my part.

Halx

Well, I might contend that it's your frame of mind that allows you to perceive things to be out of the ordinary bounds of physics. Much the same way that you could convince yourself that a lie is true. Much the same way there are eye-witness accounts of monsters and magic from centuries past. Much the same way people believe Jesus talks directly to them.

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Kalnaur

Much as I might say that you are much to comfortable in your own ignorance to seek that which might be beyond the grasp of that which is physical. Especially since I am willing to admit that I might be wrong, yet you have no such preconceptions. I am glad that you have made up your mind, as have I.


Do you believe that people can heal others with a touch? That we can talk to other beings besides ourselves? Of course not, not until the flawed art of science tells us it is so. Your adherence to the fact that there is no god, of any kind, shows you to be a fanatic of the opposite side of the coin from those who kill for their god thinking it to be his will. You worship the man made quantification and qualification of science, or so it sounds. Please, show me I am wrong. Tell me you do not put all your trust in "facts" determined by a flawed race. I know i do not put all my faith in God; I have tested it many times and it continues to come out stronger, and becomes tempered because of ideas in science, not disproved by them.

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PC: Can you help me out here HK?
HK-47: I'm 98% percent sure this miniature organic meatbag wants you to help find his fellow miniature organic meatbags.
PC: And the other 2 percent?
HK-47: The other 2 percent is that he is just looking for trouble and needs to be blasted, but that might be wishful thinking on my part.

Halx

There is a reason why all of that stuff gets served to us on television - because it's fantastic and implausible and it's great to make believe. I've never said that my logic is infallible... hell, I may be proven wrong one day - I could see it if it happened. I mean, if I saw a ghost when I was certain that I was in my right mind, I suppose I'd have to restructure my entire belief structure. However, do you believe that Siegfried and Roy actually perform magic? Do you believe John Edwards actually talks to the dead spirits on his TV show? Do you believe that David Blaine can actually levitate?

If you obsess about something, you will find it everywhere you look. If all it takes for you to feel god is a menial wish granted, then I suppose you'd be filled with faith at the end of every day. However, being easily pleased can add up to a lot of easy satisfaction and a LOT of dissonance.

I'd like for you to recount to me a time in which your faith was fulfilled. I'd like to know what was extraordinary about it, what you expected from it, and how it made you feel. Was it an instance or was it a period of time? Was anyone there to experience it with you? What kind of state of mind were you in during it all?

Let's stop being vague and let's start analyzing these things that build faith. Let's find out the genuine essence of faith.

Then I'd like to know why people always thank god when they do well, but never blame him when they do bad. I've never been able to figure that one out.

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martinguerre

to quote one of the pastors at my church a few services ago....

"Oh Blessed Enemy, confounder of our myths, revealer of our ignorace."

Most serious theology going on these days is niether about fear or teddybearness.

That address is one of my most favored theological moments, not only becuase it's linguistically beautiful to me, but becuase it encapsulates the way in which God not only challenges us and moves us out from where we are comfortable, but also gives us the courage and love we need to leave our myths of isolation, sacred violence, and competitive relationships. it is certainly a far cry from being told to call someone "sir" for no reason. there are books in the Jewish tradition that have names for God for almost every occasion, and they are all tied to the actions for which we give thanks and praise. "because" is a shitty reason. but that's not why we're doing this.

we are doing this because something amazing has happened. as human beings, terribly prone to pride and violence and separation...we've experienced revelations, grown in love, become community. and we're pretty sure we didn't do it ourselves, so we look to see where our gratitude is due. it gets considerably more complicated from there on in, but that's the most accessible statement of ecclesiology i can write at this time of the evening.

you can throw as many perjoratives as you want...but you're not changing the fact that there is a great deal of religion that is self-critical, intellectually engaged, and challenging.

this is where i shake my head, with two reasons. the first is that it's obvious to me that Christianity has a serious PR issue...one that i need to constantly be working on. people don't get negative views of Christianity in a vacuum. they meet people who don't have a lot of theological education, and they meet people who are expressing toxic versions of Christianity. they are brothers and sisters in Christ, i am bound to love them. but it doesn't mean i have to be silent if they abuse of the teachings of Christ. my first responsibility is to the Gospel...

The second is that isn't cool to insult one's guests. It is perfectly fine to express disagreement, a difference of opinion, and that people have different observations on the world. But that was pretty much a personal insult. i'm not terribly upset...this is an online debate and i expect flaming. i'd just rather not have to expect that.

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For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

martinguerre

just saw this...much more productive. thank you.

you're right about easily fufilled faith...and there's a great deal of conversation with in Christianity about that problem.

one moment, selected because it was the most recent.

watching a documentary about the strike at the Brookside Mine...showing a group of miner's wives stand in the picket line, even after being shot at, and standing up to any and all authorities that try to pull them away. it was a pivitol moment for appalachia and labor in general...and they had the courage to protect their families from the abuse the mining companies were giving. low wages meant the kids went with out education. poor saftey standards left widows and orphans.

i had a feeling of profound resonance, knowing that this kinds of courage was Godly in nature. i can't say i expected anything out of it...i simply wanted to reflect in that moment, and the solidarity i was experiencing.

period of time was not long...the clip we watched was about 2 minutes, and i reflected for a few more.

there were other people in the room...i didn't ask if they were moved. i assume so, in different ways. one is an agnostic union organizer...i'm sure he had a reaction. my friend giving the presentation is quaker, and has talked about union organizing and her faith many times.

state of mind? reflective is the best word i can come up with...i was beign both drawn inwards to a calling to exhibit such justice in my own life, and outwardly in empathy to those who have suffered to show and create justice.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

Halx

So this was a feeling that you attributed to god? I guess I'm missing the connection.

Was it the inspiration you felt? Was it the inspiration the miners' wives felt?

I can tell you that I've felt a little 'profound inclination' while observing such tales of others, but I have not attributed it to anything but my underlying will to be a good person. I guess I could call it anything and interpret it as anything. God is one of many options.

The lack of faith is by no means an empty existence. I am inspired quite like the rest of you, but I feel everything within me, wanting to get out. I know it's all inside me, but it needs the proper external trigger to pull it out. I'm sure the submission to a higher being would rest the pressure I feel on a daily basis to be a complete person, but I guess you can say I've chosen the long road. I'm here to discover myself and my power, helped by nobody.

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martinguerre

So this was a feeling that you attributed to god?

perhaps not quite. in that moment i felt a profound sense of connection to God. would i have been moved otherwise? perhaps. not in the same way, i suspect.

"Was it the inspiration you felt? "
I was talking about my experience, though i strongly suspect that many of those involved in the original incident would describe it in religious terms. mining towns in kentucky in the 70's were fairly religious places.


"I guess I could call it anything and interpret it as anything. God is one of many options."

Yeah. One could...though i'd ask that that interpretation was a lens that actually helped see something. it would need to be thoughtful, ethically concerned, reflective, self-critical, and able to respond to life.

"I'm sure the submission to a higher being would rest the pressure I feel on a daily basis to be a complete person"
It could. Not the way i feel about it, but some people do use religion to stop improving themselves. I'd follow Barth in saying that such a religion is idolitrous, worshipping the incomplete human who has told the lie that it is perfect. Grace is a calling, not an answer. Grace demands response, initiates relationship, begins change.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

pinkie

“I once was lost, but now I’m found - was blind but now, I see…”

People with faith have compassion and respect for where other people are at in their own personal or spiritual growth.

People with faith are filled with grace, and able to exhibit forgiveness.

People with faith are meek, and will not argue, insult and fight to make their points.

People with faith are gifted, because they have something that is Divine.

People with faith love their enemies like they love their friends.

People with faith work towards peace with all who they come in contact with.


“Anger and bitterness hurts you more than your violator;
it poisons your attitude and imprisons your spirit.”

Stiltzkin

God is actually an apple. I'm sorry to disappoint everyone who thought otherwise.

Religion, politics, anal probing by aliens... it's all the same thing.

Just live life, god damn it. (all irony intended)

There's like 10^(10^(10^(10^(10^(10))))) atoms in the universe, or something like that, so that means that you have like a 1/10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000000
chance of coming into existence. How the FUCK can you not be grateful for that? Even if you have a shitty life, appreciate it, damn it, because at least you *have* life.

What's my point? I dunno. God or no God, you're alive.

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The most important thing in this world is love.

Coppertop

Compassion, indeed.

pinkie

Jesus's Anger Towards the Pharisees in Matthew:


How very shameful, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. You blind Pharisees! First clean the inside of the cup, so that the outside also may become clean.

Disgraceful scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which on the outside look beautiful, but inside they are full of the bones of the dead and of all kinds of filth. So you also on the outside look righteous to others, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

Shame, shame on you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous, and you say, If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets. Thus you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, measure of your ancestors.
You snakes, you brood of vipers! How can you escape being sentenced to hell?

(Matthew 25:34)

Just because some claim to be religious does not mean they are with faith or live through Him, sadly. Yet, this pattern of judgement, hatred and self-righteousness repeats over and over again.

water_boy1999

Wow, I just read this entire debate. Good stuff people.

I was raised Christian. About the time I was in 11th grade, I decided religion wasn't for me. I never did believe in God. I didn't as a kid and I especially don't now. Save the gospel for someone else. I don't need someone, who grew up to believe that everyone needs to subscribe to their opinion, to preach to me.

Sorry pinkie, but it is hokey religious crap like this that has never made sense to me. I have faith. I have faith in myself. All the points listed above I have and I don't need a false sense of security, believing in a God, to reassure myself that I have faith in something. For that which I can't understand or explain, I look for a scientific or logical explanation. I don't fall back on the centuries old beliefs that things happen and exist because God made it so. The argument of Creationism and Darwinism is pure bulshit. If people can't see that we have evolved from lesser forms than ourselves are just plain naive. I am not attacking anyone who falls back on religion to explain what they can't explain for themselves. You go believe what you want to believe. I am at peace withmyself FINALLY because I chose NOT to continue to look for answers in something that doesn't exist.

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rfra3645

wow i have faith and am the exact opostie of all these things.

i have never heard this but from waterboys input im guesing this is something people say.

wonder who belevis this... i suppose it could be true.. in a perfect world..

where is there a perfect world?? i guess well never know thanks to eve....

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the slight variations in spelling, grammar and punctuation
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if you cant read my post i dont want to hear about it move on. thanks

rfra3645

people with faith are gullibile. ok lets roll with this. for a minute.

once agian i refer to goolge for my deffinitions.

1. Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting solely and implicitly on his authority and veracity; reliance on testimony.
2. The assent of the mind to the statement or proposition of another, on the ground of the manifest truth of what he utters; firm and earnest belief, on probable evidence of any kind, especially in regard to important moral truth. "Faith, that is, fidelity, -- the fealty of the finite will and understanding to the reason." Coleridge.

so what i see this defintion saying: if you belive somone based purley on there word and probable evidience you are using or enacting faith.

definiton probable: # [adj] likely but not certain to be or become true or real

deffinition gullible : [adj] naive and easily deceived or tricked

so what i hear you saying halx is that ( an example here) if lets say a juror sits in a jury box listens to 1 blind witness. say i didnt see but i heard smelled and could just tell that this guy went to the counter robbed and shot the desk clerk while talking on a cell phone. by the way he is now and was then wearing stetson the cologne.

the prosocuter provides no other evidence or witnesses. so if the jury finds this guy guilty based purley on this 1 person.

then your saying these 12 people are easilly tricked and decived.

i dont know i find that statement to be well verry unjust.. possibly childish. i dont know maybe thats not the right word. but since i am new here in the language ill let it slide.

this theroeticly happens evrey day.

i have faith so when you say you are a basiclcy good person i belive you. are you tricking me? your avatar graphic suggests possibly. i dont think so but i suppose anything could happen.


anyway im not trying to be petty i just am trying to understand what you are saying.

are you saying that only people with religous faith are gullible? or faith in general. i have faith that evrey week my wifes check will be deposited automaticly.

i also have faith that the Bible is a real transcrpit of His story.

wich case makes me gullible??

ps. i dont need and waterfront property in florida.

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the slight variations in spelling, grammar and punctuation
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if you cant read my post i dont want to hear about it move on. thanks

martinguerre

Talking about Fred Phelps is about as helpful as mentioning Hitler. Pinkie makes a very good reply as well.

Not all who claim to be acting for God are. To introduce such an extreme example does not serve the debate at all. The next time someone says that Phelps is the loudest voice in Christianity, i'm going to claim Stalin is the most famous atheist.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

Coppertop

Regardless of what Phelps says and does, homophobia is clearly evident in Christianity. Does that represent all Christians? Of course not. Consider Phelps the black sheep of the family if you want to, but remember: he is still family.

martinguerre

alright.

Regardless of what Stalin says and does, mass purges of the peasantry is clearly evident in athiesm. Does that represent all athiests? Of course not. Consider Stalin the black sheep of the family if you want to, but remember: he is still family.

You don't need to tell me that Phelps hates me. I've seen his antics many times...and i greive everytime. but he's not a useful figure to debate. Christianity is NOT a monolithic entity. I know Phelps wants to define the debate, but i'm sorry. it's my church too.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

powerclown

I would say that this is more a reflection of how you view others than a statement of fact. It is the easiest thing in the world to say that people with faith are guillibile and naive. Don't you think that they understand the enigma of faith? Don't you think they understand the damning role science can play in one's spiritual beliefs? Don't you think they notice the misery, absurdity and injustice of life? Is the implication that people of faith lack intelligence, while atheists and agnostics are more intelligent?

I'm one of those who believes that the existence of evil in the world isn't any kind of basis to refute the existence of a higher power. The human experience runs the entire spectrum of conceivable situations: from absolute good, to absolute evil and everything in between, and Man alone is responsible for it all.

I admire people who have faith. They not only have their native intelligence and self-belief to help them along, but they also have the additional support of faith, in that which exists outside of themself. Since life is about relationships and getting along with others, I think this tends to give one a healthier, more complete and more useful outlook on life.

tecoyah

I like this....it says quite a bit.

If this is meant to express the attitudes of most Christians however, I would unfortunately have to take issue. Then again, these statements of faith would be missing from most people...not just a Christian.

My underlying issue with the proclamation of Faith by the God fearing sect, is the superiority many project because of it. Personally, I really don't care if one feels above another due to some perception of reality they decide to follow, but please don't attempt to refute my understanding of this world with information that has little Data to back it up. We all have a slightly different take on what is real, and what is fabricated. We all see the world with personal perception, and experience individual to ourselves. This is what makes for reality.

The above statement of Faith could be as easily used to express the attitudes of anyone who has attained some level of spiritual understanding, and is not a "Christian" thing.

Faith is a Human condition, Not a religious state of mind.

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Kalnaur

All I know for sure is that the universe was created somehow and I didn't do it. I believe this was posted sometime ago in this thread, but not by me. I could be wrong, however, I have not been proved wrong thus far.

Halx, you asked me to recount a time where I had my faith fulfilled. How about when I met a demon with my brother? My brother has seen (when I have felt) the presence of what most people call a "demon". We both were there, the wind felt, wrong somehow, and i could tell that there was something not right about the whole area, I could see this area like the absence of anything, hard to describe, but like there was no light or darkness, it was more or less like an empty hole; and it was stalking down the street. He told me to back up and go inside, much as you would slowly walk away from a wild animal. We both did so and once inside I asked him what he saw, all he would say was that I was lucky I could only see emptiness. He said he would not tell me what it looked like because he knew it would give him nightmares that night. And he said to me, "That, is what a demon feels like". I'll tell you, it felt like everything inside me rejected whatever that thing was.

Or how about being fulfilled in a good way, a time no one was there to experience it with me? The first time I talked, actually exchanged words with 'God', I asked, "Wassup?". Funniest thing is when he answered with, "I'd rather not make your head pop. Let's just say I'm doing stuff." I asked, "Stuff? What kind of all powerful being uses the word stuff?" To which he said, "Fine, how about things, does the word 'things' work for you?" I just laughed and said, "So the all powerful god is doing stuff and things, huh?" He answered, "Look, I could give you a whole listing of the myriad amount of things I am currently occupied with, and the part of you that is truly you would be able to take it; your physical body however, your mind in particular, would not be able to contain that amount of info. It would explode and everyone would say you'd have had a hemmorage in your brain. So shall we just stick with stuff and thing?" I was fine with that. Can I back this up? My mother has said that's what she gets from him when she asks what he's doing, though not in the same words. The words he uses with her are more like "important things".

The funniest thing is, both my brother and my brother are not what you would call religious. Neither go to curch, my brother doubts the existence of the things he sees, and my mother thinks that any of her ideas relating to a god are more on level with spiritualism than christianity.

That's it for now, I must go take (i.e. fail) a final on the Icelandic Sagas.

__________________
PC: Can you help me out here HK?
HK-47: I'm 98% percent sure this miniature organic meatbag wants you to help find his fellow miniature organic meatbags.
PC: And the other 2 percent?
HK-47: The other 2 percent is that he is just looking for trouble and needs to be blasted, but that might be wishful thinking on my part.

chickentribs

Atheism doesn't mean hedonism. Intelligence and experience will create more charity and humanity than religion in a truer sense because it doesn't judge. Don't assume we all become selfish boors because we don't subscribe to a "God". The arguments of "godliness in morality" are simplistic and avoid the issue. Most of the posters seem to distance themselves from scripture as "religion". So, you make up what feels right for you? Why not let the proven properties of science help answer your questions instead of your need for an easy story to give you comfort. Sometimes it is more important to understand what we don't know...

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and most oft there Where most it promises
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Coppertop

When did I state I was atheist?

martinguerre

At the point where i start comparing not having a diety to the liquidation of the farmers of russia, you might realize that i'm saying stuff for effect.

the moral of the story is that strawmen = bad.

Fred Phelps is a strawman. Even when compared to most of those who theologically reject homosexuality, he is extreme.

as a queer Christian, i get it enough from the conservatives "you're not one of us." I don't take it from them, and i'm not going to take it from anyone else either. Sorry, but it's my faith too.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

Coppertop

In all honesty, I had no idea who Phelps was before reading the article I linked to. So strawman he may be, but not an intentional one.

I understand that Christianity is not a monolithic entity. But please understand that when viewed from the outside, it's not so easy to see that sometimes.

martinguerre

i know...and it pains me that a guy like Phelps can present himself as a credible voice. i've said many times before...Christianity has an *incredible* PR problem.

the new UCC ads are a step in the right direction...but there's not a lot of money in the progressive wing of the church...but we do what we can.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16