analog

This all came about because of replies to this thread...

Why all the Manson-bashing? He lives a different lifestyle than you do, fucking get over it. I'm sure there are lots of things that YOU do that bother other people. I dislike children, and will never have any, but does that give me the right to bash all those who DO? No. Learn more, grow up.

You wanna use that energy you got stored up to bash someone? Go after people doing harm to this world- racists, murderers, rapists, thieves... you hate because you don't understand, so why not try to understand why you hate?

Everyone is "different" in their own unique way. What you see as entire groups behaving in a similar manner is simply the way that group's ideals have converged, based on input from all within the group. Like clothing. You see what you consider to be goth people as "all wanting to be different, yet all dressing the same way".

In that line of thought, I put this to you- all of those who are "normal", or just don't feel like being "different" are STILL different in their own unique ways. Example: You say all goths dress alike. So do businesspeople. Shirt, tie, slacks. They all dress alike. They all have their own particular individual style to add, but overall it's just the same.

We are all different from each other. Groups are formed BECAUSE people of similar interests interact and find the company of like-minded people more pleasing than the everyday banality of random others.

TaLoN

being an american i have the right to bash anyone i want. if there are people that want to bash me for things that i want to do, then i welcome it. i love beating the shit out of someone who disagrees with me. Being "mature" doesn't mean you have to be tolerant of others. if you believe in something stand up for it; that includes if you believe something is wrong. I never signed a contract saying that i have to like everyone.

the only reason i keep my mouth shut is because this board is unlike reality, it is full of censorship and so called "maturity". i am in no way complaining about it, i am just stating the obvious.

World's King

Why do people bash things they don't understand?


We don't anything to fill the time between watching Oprah and jerking off on the kitchen counter.

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Shokan

Yes, it does. But I'd like to hear your reasoning on why you think otherwise.

Glory's Sun

I for one think Manson is brilliant. People talk shit about him and rant and rave about him but they don't realize that all they are doing is spreading his name and giving him even more attention. That's pretty much what he wants. As far as being tolerant of other people, I am to a point. If someone bashes me or my ideals enough then I will do what I need to do. I accept the fact that there are many different ideals and opinions in the world and mine is just one more added to the mix. I listen to what the other person has to say and I expect the same.. if we still disagree then we'll just agree to disagree. Some people are scared of what they don't understand. Alot of people don't understand Manson or the whole "goth" thing. I'm not "goth" so I don't pretend to understand, but I don't hate on people because they are. I actually like Manson's music and his shows are fucking awesome. In the same breath though I usually end up in a fight because I don't look like the rest of the crowd there and they think I'm invading their territory or something so the knife cuts both ways.

As far as a quote from talon: " I enjoy beating the shit out of someone who disagrees with me" that isn't a right. It is your right to have a different opinion and hopefully you mean beating verbally, if you mean physically then more than likely you'll be in the slammer with that attitude.

analog

There is a world of difference between expressing a viewpoint that differs from someone else's or expressing criticism, and "bashing". Bashing something is when your words show everyone your ignorance- criticism is when you show them your wit and intelligence.

You don't have to like everyone, OR everything. That's your choice. I don't like a lot of things- children, for one. But I would not disallow you to speak your mind freely in expressing your opinion on said topic, I would embrace your ability to carry a simple, civil conversation.

You keep your mouth shut because you know your "bashing" is not tolerated- those who are critical of others' views do so properly- with respect and maturity.

I have more fun than anyone I know, but that doesn't mean I can't also be a mature human being when the time is appropriate. I am FAR FAR FAR away from being a prud, so don't assume that's where this is coming from. It's just that you might be socially inept.

Thank you all for your great posts, keep them coming.

Halx

Speaking ill of things one does not understand is quite simply a human trait that stems from lack of intelligence.

"Without the 'why' you are powerless."

People are offended by things they do not understand. Imagine if you were raised without being hugged or seeing anyone being hugged. What the hell would you think if you were 18 years old and someone suddenly hugged you in greeting? You'd probably be startled and shove back the person - you'd be shocked. That's exactly what these people are doing when they comment on shit they dont understand.

THAT WAS MY ANSWER TO YOUR GENERAL QUESTION.

Now, about Marilyn Manson specifically - people have had a few years to get acquainted to him and by now I wouldn't assume someone does not "understand him" as surely to understand someone IS NOT to like them. Please do not think this is some grand example for the way human beings are by a few people's reaction to a well-known rock star. I'd assume the reason why MM is being *bashed* is because he is commercial hate. People have every right not to like him.

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Halx

And might I add... negative opinions are fine here on the TFP, immature opinions are not. Is there any part of this issue that cannot be understood?

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WhoaitsZ

MM and Eminem offfend me about as much as Big Bird.

their job is to shock and offend. nothing shocks me and i'm only offended by a handful of things.

I think MM is kind of a joke, but I respect him highly as a person and would love to meet him. I loathe stereotypical sheep and am glad there are others.

as far as tolerance... you got it on both sides or there would be no discussion. I hate seeing people bash something i like yet oftentimes, if i disagree, I will attack the topic.

the thing i see too much of is how to keep bashing from being disprestful to the Poster. if you can't tolerate each other, go elsewhere, i'ight?

and PS: everyone has the right to say what they want in theory. this is a people's forum.. namely halx's forum. if you cross his rules I think you'll find your "freedom" cut off pretty abruptly.

respect each other. if i wanna watch kids squabble i'll go hang out with my niece and nephew.

BBtB

analog you got it all wrong. There is nothing is nothing wrong with people who bash Marilyn Manson. You just don't understand them.

What is sad is there in three sentences I point out the hypocrisy in your own theory yet even so I know you will still not understand or get my point. Wanna know who I am tired of? People who think that all intolerance can be traced back to a lack of understanding. And it is true that much intolerance is. But there are alot of people who are not offened by Manson, my self included, that just don't care for his taste in music. I think he panders to the lowest common denominator and when you boil it all down to it he is just in it for the money. Now that is just one mans opinon. The point is just because I do not like him does not mean I did not give him a chance nor that I just do not understand him. People who are into sports pull this shit all the time. I do not like any sport (Which is to say I can stand to watch about two college football games a year) Anytime I talk to a sports fan and I tell them "I do not care for basketball" or whatever, they will inform me it is because I do not 'understand' the game. I do not understand the rules and what not. Bullshit. Okay I just do not find it amusing to watch 10 guys run back and forth with a ball trying to shoot it at a hole. Along the same vein I am also not amused to watch some ultra skinny ultra white guy on the stage making various obscene gestures. Thats just me. I think that the thought that anyone who dislikes something is just uninformed is immature.

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Meridae'n once played "death" at a game of chess that lasted for over two years. He finally beat death in a best 34 out of 67 match. At that time he could ask for any one thing and he could wish for the hope of all mankind... he looked death right in the eye and said ...

"I would like about three fiddy"

gibber71

krwlz

this hits surprisingly close to the flak i got for bashing "muscle bound morons"

crewsor

If it weren't for people bashing him, he would be just another freak wannabe. His notoriety is his ticket to fame, and he knows it and cultivates it.
He pulls outrageous stunts to cause people to dislike him and you ask why people bash him. I think you may be the one who misunderstands if you think it bothers him.

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XenuHubbard

Hey! Give Manson some credit! Without somebody to blame for everything, the politicians would have to do their job!

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MSD

People hate and bash what they don't understand because it's easier than trying to understand it. I may not fit exactly into the goth stereotype but that's the closest I come to any. The goth-bashing is based on misunderstanding and unwillingness to understand. I think the reason for the Manson bashing is that he wants it to happen. He wouldn't be who he is if he didn't do things for the sole person of making people hate him. Regardless of his musical talent, he wouldn't be able to get by without shocking people; the hate keeps him going.

TaLoN

ma·ture ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-tyr, -tr, -chr)
adj. ma·tur·er, ma·tur·est

Having reached full natural growth or development: a mature cell.
Having reached a desired or final condition; ripe: a mature cheese.
Of, relating to, or characteristic of full development, either mental or physical: mature for her age.

Suitable or intended for adults: mature subject matter.
Composed of adults: a mature audience.
Worked out fully by the mind; considered: a mature plan of action.
Having reached the limit of its time; due: a mature bond.
No longer subject to great expansion or development. Used of an industry, a market, or a product.

tol·er·ant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tlr-nt)
adj.
Inclined to tolerate the beliefs, practices, or traits of others; forbearing. See Synonyms at broad-minded.
Able to withstand or endure an adverse environmental condition: plants tolerant of extreme heat.


beauty is in the eye of the beholder. i see no correlation between the above definitions

Lebell

I guess it just goes to show,

You can give a person a dictionary, but you can't make him think.

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seretogis

Haha, this is a hilarious thread. I wish that I had gotten to it earlier, before what I wanted to say was already said.

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Halx

TaLoN, it all depends how childish you want to appear.

Get too childish and we might not trust that you're over 18.

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Pacifier

I don't like MM very much, his music is not good (some of his older stuff is) and I simply cannot stand this hype around his "shocking" apperance.

I've seen a lot of crude and strange Bands (look to some of the scandinavian BlackMetal Bands for example) so this "look I'm so shocking" attitude of MM seems just stupid. A cheap way to get attention. I like a strange apperance, but with MMs i got the feeling he is only doing it for PR. But maybe I'm wrong.

I was positively surprised when I saw his Intervies in "Bowling for Columbine", so I think he is somewhat smart.
But he still does not deserve a baba like Dita

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JadziaDax

Here is what I don't understand:

1. The amount of anger that I'm sensing from your words.

2. The fact that this anger was brought on by ONE (yes one) comment in the referring thread that contained Marilyn Manson's name. And it was the same sort of comment that would have been said if the post was of any celebrities girlfriend.

I really think the person who needs to get over things is the hypersensitive ones who read into everything too deeply. I didn't see anyone bash Manson. You asked "Why all the Manson-bashing?" Yet the one comment prior to your rant called Manson lucky and the other said he didn't deserve someone as beautiful as Dita. After the link to this rant, there were two more comments. The first stated that he actually wished to be Manson, and the second stated that Manson was a lucky man. Does this constitute bashing? Maybe I need a definition of bashing. I see nothing but compliments... Both to Dita and to Manson.

But back to why people "bash" others... Many here have said it's for lack of intelligence or for not understanding. There is another reason for "bashing" or putting something down.... jealousy. When a person is jealous of another, sometimes the person has the need to put the other down to make himself/herself feel better. So people may "bash" Manson because they're jealous. But unless you ask the person why he/she did it, you will never know.

Jesus Pimp

I've met Manson in person and he's a pretty cool guy. Too bad his new albums sucks. What's with all my favorite bands going weaksauce?

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rockogre

This is a pretty interesting thread. Back in the day the same things went on with Alice Cooper, Black Sabbath, etc. Marilyn and Eminem are just marching along the same commerical path that worked for others. I have always liked Alice Cooper and I still do, he's really a nice guy, but he sang songs about dead babies and his stage show was amazingly shocking to many straight laced people.

You also need to remember that back in the early 70's no one had ever seen or even considered this kind of showmanship.

The odd thing is that they, and probably many of todays acts, welcome the bashing and the bad press because it SELLS. Eminem without the attitude would be just another act.

Neither of the gentlemen being discussed are original, they are variations on a theme and it's working for them. Or is that observation also bashing?

The bashing thing for you though, seems to be personal. No one bashed you. Maybe it is you that should be a little more tolerant of us.

(And this is from one of the grumpiest people on the fourm!)

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Magpie0001

WTF? Bash whoever you want but why does being american come into it? Do Canadians not have licence to Bash? Makes no fucking sence to me.

warrrreagl

I am unfamiliar with this particular "right." Which one is it?

It is both amusing and dismaying to hear people "quote" the U.S. Bill of Rights incorrectly, and fabricate new rights out of thin air.

If you're referring to the 1st Amendment (the one we typically call Free Speech), I'd invite you to reread it. Most people today incorrectly assume the 1st Amendment guarantees the right to say anything you want, but that is absolutely false.

Instead, the 1st Amendment only guarantees that Congress shall make no law abridging your right to free speech, and that is totally different from guaranteeing the right to say anything you want.

Now, back to Manson; Manson's an entertainer and a performer. No one should ever be so simple as to be offended by someone's act. I've been offended by plenty of people before, but never an act . There's also a lot of music out there I don't like, but I'm still not offended by a musician's act.

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BBtB

Classic

I can not think of any particular law that gives one the right to dislike another but this defintly gives on the right to voice that opinon (which is really all it is, it is only if you are on the other side will you see it as "bashing") but you do make a good point. I am so tired of people thinking that free speach applys to everything. Like in another forum we talked about wal-mart removing maxim and someone mentioned free speach (I THINK they did atleast, if not then atleast I know in any other forum they would have) free speach only governs what the national goverment can do. Local goverments can still make (certain) laws governing free speach and buisness can make any rule they want, on their property, which is the point.

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Meridae'n once played "death" at a game of chess that lasted for over two years. He finally beat death in a best 34 out of 67 match. At that time he could ask for any one thing and he could wish for the hope of all mankind... he looked death right in the eye and said ...

"I would like about three fiddy"

WhoaitsZ

... I wonder how many people here realize how pop this is making MM and his music genre...

as far as rights: yes, everyone has the right to be an asshole. thankfully, not everyone flaunts their rights.

Midnight_Son

Agreed....but, whose to tell the difference between the two? (there are obviously times when the difference is very aparent). but it's impossible to know the attitude of the person leaving the remarks. I speak from experience having been warned for what I've written in the past. to me, what I wrote was funny as hell...but alas not everyone shares my veiw of whats funny and whats not. all I ask is if you read something...and it pisses you off...read it again,and make sure the way you took it is really the way it was meant to be inturpeted. on the other hand, we're not face to face here...you gotta be a little careful about what you write. that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

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warrrreagl

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Halx
And might I add... negative opinions are fine here on the TFP, immature opinions are not. Is there any part of this issue that cannot be understood?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I would say the guy who wrote the original quote, Halx. It's his Forum, so he clearly gets to tell the difference all he wants.

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rideough

manson is making fun of everything and everyone in middle-america in one swoop!
The man is a genius and can debate with the fastest talking politicians out there!

I'm not a huge fan of his music but I respect him more than any other bonehead celebrity out there.

Check him out in bowling for columbine or any other of his interviews.
He makes "regular" people look like complete morons.

Midnight_Son

Good point

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*Nikki*

I am Marilyn Manson's biggest fan.

Say what you want about him. I think he rocks. I can relate to a lot of his music and it holds a tremendous about of emotion. Who the fuck cares what he looks like or if he wears makeup, blah,blah,blah. He is a kick ass musician.

Try and understand something before you put it down.

READ HIS BOOK

Halx

negative - I dont like it, and this is why
immature - it sucks

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Glory's Sun

I agree totally nikki.. do you have his dvd yet? I wanna check it out sometime.. I heard it was awesome

TaLoN

im not trying to be childish here. im just pointing out that thinking maturity = tolerance is just one point of view and i would be sad to see the human race become a bunch of pushovers who don't stand up for what they believe in (that includes when you believe something is wrong).

yes i have read it and i agree with what you said. this is entirely separate; in the future don't assume that you know how i think please

yes it is awesome

Easytiger

How does being tolerant make you a pushover?

Nad Adam

Just a bit on my feelings about Manson.
At first I thought he was a complete wanker. Because I didn't like his appearance and general style I wouldn't give him a chance. That went on for several years until I saw some interviews with him where he showed that he had a real grip on reality and none of the prestige that makes most of us kling onto our belifs no matter what. I came to see him in another light and gave his music a chance, I feel it's ok but not something I'd listen to every day.

Manson is also a great for capitalist. He takes this unmarketable underground style and brings it to the general public and makes sure he gets the $$$ for it. I can respect that.

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Atropos4

I'm am also a fan of Manson's.

Just like others have said. He does his thing to get paid. It's all show. There will always be some artist out there that people find offensive. Anyone remember Elvis? He got a lot of flack for the way he sang and danced. This is the same thing. I don't see the big deal. I also agree with Jadzia. I followed the link and I only saw one "bash." hmmm

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Lebell

Exactly

tolerant != pushover

just like

assertive != agressive.


In both cases the first is what we should strive for, the second is to be avoided.

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