GSRIDER

I've never posted a long rant on here, but I was so obsessed about this subject that I had to vent and possibly get feedback.

My daughter goes to a private school, as anyone in Kansas City knows, public school is fast becoming a non-option, our public school system is flas ass crap. Private and homeschooling reign supreme here.

OK, so I go to this party last night. An "appreciation" gathering for my daughters retiring preschool teacher. We happen to send our daughter to a pretty uppity school. We knew this going in, but we figured it was just a toddler program and hopefully in a few years we will be moving out of state.

Now, I'm not poor by anymeans, have the things that make ones life comfortable, the kids are well fed and dressed. But even that is a high contrast to way I once lived my life. I've slept under bridges, stayed in squat houses, been to jail and have put a world of hurt on people (looking back for apparently no reason at all). Donated plasma for a living and bummed change to get beer.

Now granted I did this all before turning 21, I am now a 33 y/o punkrock dad. Sober, I work in cube, drive a minivan and own my house. Still in a punk band, still hang out with other aging punks ,many of which have "grown" like I have. But I lead the pack cause I had my first son when I was 21 (hence the huge change in lifestyle).

SOOOO Why am I writing this little tirade? Because I'm at this party last night and it is clearly, chrystal clear, beyond obvious that I did not belong in that house with those people. Stockbrokers, lawyers, CEOs... million dollar families... Old money new money. I couldn't cope. I couldn't talk to them, it took everything I had just to stay in there long enough as to not appear rude, hell it took everything I had not to RUN out the door with my finger in the air. Here I am, hair cropped short, sideburns, tatttoos galore (I covered up all that I could but I still have them on my hands and neck and behind my ear). But it's not like I'm some wreck. I'm a working professional. I design magazines for the second largest publisher in the nation. But I mean I couldn't get the time of day in there.

Maybe I'm paranoid, maybe it's my punkrock roots shining through but I knew that they knew I was on a different level than them. That I live and die by the paycheck and they live and die by Tee times and powerdeals.

But what really eats me up is as my daughter gets older, will she have these same feeling of class seperation. Will she be the "poor kid" amoungst the elite, when in other social circles we are well to do.

i don't know. I only plan to have her attend to more years and then hopefully I'm moving to Colorado.


Thats my rant, i had to get it off my chest.

__________________
No signature at this time.

Cynthetiq

Thanks for sharing

IMO your views are seen through tthe glasses you've always worn even when you were younger. Your daughter will learn how she feels about it and then find her own path.

I have about the same checkered past that you do most of it was pride because I didn't want much from my immediate family who were well off, and the rest of the family well to do. But I did learn which most of my cousins did not, how to ebb and flow with the world and it's classes. I never did fit into one clique or the other, not one class or another.

I'm comfortable eating with bums in the morning and then having afternoon tea with the upper crust. I'm not saying that I'm better than you, I'm just more comfortable with it that you.

Classes suck. I don't strive for any more than what I need. The wife and I make good money together but I'm not interested in living that large. I'd rather live comfortably and still have more to go.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

GSRIDER

I hear what your saying. Classes do suck. It's funny cause there was a time that i didn't like friends or bands coming to my house cause I lived comfortably... damn i got issues sometimes.

It's like that old "you think you're better than me" SNL skit!!! I guess I have a chip on my shoulder that gets heavier in situations like that.

__________________
No signature at this time.

ARTelevision

That being said, I'd like to add that classism saturates the USA and wealth corrupts the soul.

Many people will say it's not money that corrupts us but how we handle it, etc. Everyone wants to be above all these things, because, damn it, they want to be rich!

Idealism is a fascinating phenomenon, especially as it's often hooked up with egotism and denial.

Classism and wealth-ism may be more widespread and corrupting in this democratic republic than it is or was in the many bastions of aristocracy around the world.

__________________
create evolution

homerhop

I hate that sterotype. If someone has worked their way up fair play to them. I cannot understand the mentality of those who were born into money and think they are better than anyone else.more than not if they had to work for it they would have very little cos they wouldnt know how to,but then they know nothing else.
The ones that annoy me the most are those who worked for it and think they are better than me,I have been brought up with my parents always telling me never forget where you started.

Well at least you can value the fact that with all their money you have something that comes to you for free and they can never buy.....GOOD MANNERS

__________________
its evolution baby

Charlatan

GS Rider... Classism or Inferority complex? I think it might be a bit of both. There is definately a growth of classism in North America these days and this is only going to get worse as the percentage of those in the higher incomes becomes increasingly seperated from those that that don't.

I agree with Art that money corrupts.

I also think that what Cynthetiq is saying is partially right. I think that while you have your preconcieved notions based on your past the people at that party also have the same sorts of issues (i.e. what is that tatooed punk guy doing in our midst?).

I can remember going to my lamaze classes when my son was born. The other parents were lawyers, professionals, etc. I was a bicycle courier. At first there was an us vs. them kind of feeling in the room but I just kept on being myself and they could soon see that my long hair and piercings were just what I looked like and not who I was.

The reverse was generally true as well (except for one aloof bastard who was equally stuck up to everyone there).

What I'm getting at is stay true to yourself. If they don't like who you are, screw them.

As for your daughter. I would be more concerned with sending my kid to a private school in that it instills just the sort of elitism that you are talking about.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

GSRIDER

Sadly, in Kansas City Missouri, public school is not much of an option. The common thing to do here is to move across the border to Kansas. Better schools, better nieghborhoods. But that is an increasing trend, to have children and flee the city. I live in a great historic part of town, my house is just shy of a 100 years old and everything across the border is fabricated "new housing".

__________________
No signature at this time.

MSD

I'm 19, I grew up being one of the lower-middle class families in one of the richest towns in the country. Fortunately, we have one of the best public education systems in the country. I'll give you a basic summary of my life, and you can see how my views on this evolved.

Elementary school - Picked on, nerd, total of maybe three friends. When picking teams for sports, not only was I last picked, it was "No, you get him" "No, You get him!" and so on.

Middle school - Found a group that I thought I fit into in 6th grade, turns out they were just too polite to tell me to fuck off. 7th and 8th grade, found some friends who were somewhat like me, still friends with most of them.

High School - Until then, I never realized how little I fit in. I was the only one without expensive clothes and stuff like that. By my second year, I was quite happy that I was one of the few without all the money, but still resented not being able to have much stuff. I settled in with a group of friends who were universally hated by the rest of the school, and most of who were the same social and economic class as me. By my senior year, I was completely disgusted by the rich people around me, seeing stuff like the girl who crashed her brand new BMW while drunk get another new one as soon as she was off the crutches. The point where I wsa positive that I didn't want to fit in with the rich kids was when a friend of mine told me that his family's application to one of the local country clubs was rejected becasue his father is Jewish. Seeing all the rich snobs buying happiness only mad me resent them more. At this point I thanked God that I wasn't born into a rich, snobby family, and sat back, knowing that I was smarter than 99% of them.

Then, on to College. I'm going to a regional campus of UCONN. Suddenly, everything is reversed. Most of the students are minorities, suddenly I'm the rich guy (a relative term, I'm close to bankruptcy.) I met new people, hung out with them, and once again thanked God that I was the average person and not some rich asshole. It proved what I had believed all along. The people are nice, pleasant to talk to, and good people in general. The rich kids from my town go to the same school are the ones who don't fit in. If I had a choice between this and being born into a rich family, I'd stick with reality.

WhoaitsZ

my $.02, G.

I have been through about five schools (dad was in the Air Force) and was only accepted socially in one and had to move after like a year. being the kid in a wheelchair and after seperation anxiety, life was shit. now days I have few friends, but they are real. fuck quantity.

I've always felt like an outsider. I have a disorder that screams in the back of my head constantly that I am Not Wanted Here. today alone i almost didn't log on for feeling unwanted at TFP then i told myself to quit being a idiotic asshole and I loged on... and know i know that i am not unwanted.

i am just curious if you may suffer from something similiar? don't get me wrong, not only do I have the feeling, earlier in life in social gatherings I was unwanted. but seperating the past from the present can become a severe unconscience struggle.

now days I am 24 and pretty much know my real life friends... and i loathe social gatherings, man. i can't stand gossip, i don't really have much in common with guys my age (i don't care about cars or sports) and i have no job. i also am semi punk. i have hair near to my waiste, a goatee, 'stache and earrings and for right at three years a labret in my lower lip. and i curse outrageously without even realizing it. i live in the deep south..... needless to say i don't fit the social norm.... but I care less. most of these guys have no idea where they are going past their job goals... and i literaly plan my life one day at the time.... i am different and i can emphasize with you, if not understand nor will i pretend to.

if i were you, honestly, i would attend aother meeting or two... even if you leave early. your daughter will know. in the future she will think 'yeah, he wasn't the norm but he showed up for me.' a lot better than 'he felt out of place, so he never went'... something that can hurt her.

as for her fitting in.. i can't imagine the pain of having to watch a kid go through the same social happenings.. but it is the wway life is and she must face these matters... guide her..... but let her go through it. it builds character.

good luck...... and remember... you may be out of place from time to time but you are you and it sounds like you know who and what you are and where you stand. that's the only goal in life worth leading to. even leading to stay alive means nothing if you're a mindless sheep.

good luck. I, and probably the rest, are here for ya.

take care of the kid....

GSRIDER

Thanks for the words.

It's really crazy how wrapped up I, or anyone with kids can get about protecting the children. I imagine a 1000 possibilities and how I can stop them all. I can procect myself, my wit is sharp and I have pretty damn thick skin. But when my family is brought into the picture I can't spread my personal defences.

For now things are cool, kids that young don't care.

__________________
No signature at this time.

Slims

Teach your daughter that she has to play the game in order to win it.

If you impress on her the importance of appearing to fit in, while maintaining her own ideals, she will be able to move freely between 'classes' or social groups and get the best out of all worlds.

Just my two cents.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Loki

what makes you think that the rich can buy happiness? im sure most are as unhappy as the rest of us.

Personally, classes don't bother me. I love to interact with a vast variety of people, from filthy rich to just filthy. Each offers a unique and interesting perspective, if one takes the time to listen to them.

What i HATE though is people who put on false airs. I avoid those types with a ten foot pole. =)

Charlatan

Very good advice... I agree wholeheartedly.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

gov135

I agree with those above who have said that there may be a combinations of classism and inferiority going on.

quote: For now things are cool, kids that young don't care.

My .02 cents. You seem to be committed to sending your daughter through school with these kids. You also seem to be very grounded in the way you are raising them. But your daughter at some time will certainly see the wealth surrounding some of these other kids. I only bring this up because you mentioned she's too young to notice and I'm sure you are correct. But you may want to be prepared for when she realizes you can't play by the same rules as some of the other parents.

Kids can be awfully mean to each other. Show your daughter the importance of working hard (many of the rich kids won't be) and the meaning of a dollar. If she has a solid basis, she's more likely to inherit your thick skin and healthy attitude.

I don't want to step on your toes and tell you about your raising kids. I have none. But I've seen how kids who have can be really mean to those who have even a little less. Kids might not understand class seperation, but they get have vs. have-not. And the haves, often in conjunction with *sshole parents, put it on display.

I'd just have some plan of action for when she starts to perceive differences. Think about it now, so you'll be ready. Whether its a talk or an allowance, whatever you come up with.

Finally, good luck to you. You can be upset, but you can't lose your cool, so you did well. Remember, if you stay put (and I hear Colorado is nice), that the same group of parents you were with the other nite you'll see for the next 12 odd years or so!

WhoaitsZ

also remember (though there is no 'evidence') that our subconscience doesn't forget anything. so i know she may be too young to care right now... but use hindsight, dude.

VirFighter

I saw things from the slightly opposite point of view. I went a private school (not an elitist school, they gave financial aid to several families) and my family was and still is very well off. I was a little embarrassed by it at times, like bringing friends over and they would comment about the size of the house or how nice my parent's cars were. Or going out places, people would see a younger person gettng into a nice car or wearing fairly nice clothes and think, "what a spoiled brat".

I guess my point is that class difference can be hard on a kid. You need to have thick skin and a good upbringing no matter which "side of the tracks" you might come from. Like others have pointed out, if you instill the ideals of being humble, honest, hard-working, and proud of who she is then she should survive just fine.

Wealth is what you make of it. It can corrupt some people's lives and enhance others. Remember wealth also comes in more forms than just money. The kids that grow up with an empty elitist attidude will be missing out on a whole nother part of life that your daughter will be able to enjoy.

Finally, of course the most important thing is to make sure she never feels inferior in any way (and I'm not talking about giving her gifts so she can keep up with other kids).

__________________
"The South is gonna boogie again"
- Disco Stu

WhoaitsZ

VirFighter, well said. i was hoping someone would say such. i have a good friend with a very well off family and they've [i]never[/b] been snobbish with me and a lot of people put them down cuz they were decently well off.

fact is.... no matter who you are, no matter what you do, there's always a close by asshole who will knock you down because they can.

our job is to get back up and one day become firm and then laugh our ass off when they fall and break a hip. (as a matter of speaking)

what sucks sometimes is i end up helping the assholes too :P

*too much of a nice guy*

Frowning Budah

I have felt the same way as you GSRIDER but usually it is my own insecurity. I have know wealthy, intelligent people who were pleasant to everyone. Those that are acting superior are only trying to hide their own inferiority complex.

greytone

I tend to agree that there was some prejudgement on both sides. It did not sound like you were very open to interacting with these people either. Like any group, some would have been very worth spending time with and some would be assholes.

Now, I don't mean to piss you off, but think about how someone who is not into the punk lifestyle will prejudge you. The punk subculture is all about rejecting mainstream culture. The irony is that it is all about conforming in its nonconformity. If you choose clothing and hairstyles and music and tattoos that says you reject all that is dear to these people, it will be hard for them to immediately be open to you. They may worry about what your values are and how they may be represented to their children. That is not to say that many of them will not eventully become friends. Perhaps you can both learn from each other. Give them a chance, and the worthwhile ones will give you a chance.

__________________
I was there to see beautiful naked women. So was everybody else. It's a common failing.
Robert A Heinlein in "They Do It With Mirrors"

MacGnG

i'm 18 just finished my freshman year of college. college has opened my eyes yet i am definately not a sheltered child.

a few months ago i went to a party with a friend from college back at his home town and realized what i had already known, i was not gonna fit in with these kids but i figured i just party my ass off and have fun. most were those rich kinda kids that live in huge houses etc... we all know who they are but these were still cool kids and i just got drunk and partied, thats all u can really do.

everyone has been in one of those situations where they are out of place with the other people. the problem isn't with the group of people in whatever class, it's those few ass holes that make u feel uncomfortable but i would say that i wouldnt worry about it, thats just part of life, i guess.