Why Revenge Tastes So Sweet - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Cynthetiq · 07-27-2004, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Payback Time: Why Revenge Tastes So Sweet
By BENEDICT CAREY
link

A raised eyebrow was all it took.

She waited until a year after the breakup, until after he had proposed to the other woman - a model, did he mention that? - and the new couple had begun planning the wedding. That's when she ran into a mutual friend who had spent a few days staying with her ex.

"And you were, uh, comfortable staying there?" she said to the friend.

What are you talking about? he said.

And then the eyebrow arched, and voilà, suspicions about her former boyfriend's sexual orientation were loosed.

"Yes, I'm a Scorpio, so I'm un peu vindictive," said the woman, who swore certain payback if her name appeared in this newspaper.

Vindictive, perhaps, but also fundamentally protective. Revenge may be frowned upon, viewed as morally destitute, papered over with platitudes about living well. But the urge to extract a pound of flesh, researchers find, is primed in the genes.

Acts of personal vengeance reflect a biologically rooted sense of justice, they say, that functions in the brain something like appetite. Alternately voracious and manageable, it can inspire socially beneficial acts of retaliation and punishment as well as damaging ones. The emerging picture helps explain why many people who think they are above taking revenge find themselves doing nasty, despicable things, and how unconscious biases pervert what is at bottom a socially functional instinct.

"The best way to understand revenge is not as some disease or moral failing or crime but as a deeply human and sometimes very functional behavior," said Dr. Michael McCullough, a psychologist at the University of Miami. "Revenge can be a very good deterrent to bad behavior, and bring feelings of completeness and fulfillment."

Retaliatory acts, anthropologists have long argued, help keep people in line where formal laws or enforcement do not exist. Before Clint Eastwood and Arnold Schwarzenegger, there was Alexander Hamilton, whose fatal duel with Aaron Burr was commemorated this month on the banks of the Hudson River. Recent research has shown that stable communities depend on people who have "an intrinsic taste for punishing others who violate a community's norms," said Dr. Joseph Henrich, an anthropologist at Emory University in Atlanta.

In one experimental investing game involving four players, for example, people pay to punish others who contribute meager amounts to the shared investment pool. In another, a one-on-one exercise in sharing a sum of money, people often reject any offer from a partner that is not split 50-50 or close to it, denying both players a payoff. The participants are typically strangers who will not see each other again, Dr. Henrich said, so they are not penalizing others to develop an equitable relationship in the future. They are retaliating to enforce the rules that hold the game - and, theoretically, the community - together.

Using brain-wave technology, Dr. Eddie Harmon-Jones, a neuroscientist at the University of Wisconsin, has found that when people are insulted, they show a burst of activity in the left prefrontal cortex, a part of the brain that is also active when people prepare to satisfy hunger and some cravings. This increased activity, Dr. Harmon-Jones said, seems to reflect not the sensation of being angry so much as the preparation to express it, the readiness to hit back.

The expression itself is all pleasure. In one recent experiment, psychologists demonstrated that students who were ridiculed were far less likely to avenge themselves on an offensive peer if they had been given a bogus "mood-freezing pill," which they were told blocked the experience of pleasure.

"We've shown many times that expressing anger often escalates and leads to more aggression," said Dr. Brad Bushman, a psychologist at the University of Michigan who conducted the study, "but people express it for the same reason they eat chocolate."

Savoring the taste can be satisfying enough. When Kurt Raedle, 40, a salesman in Kansas City, Mo., had a new leather jacket stolen from a party, he fantasized about getting his hands on the thief. A month later, a friend spotted the rascal wearing the jacket at a bar and helped Mr. Raedle track him down. Mr. Raedle said he telephoned him. "He was guilty, and he wanted to mail the jacket to me, but I said no. I wanted him to return it, in person, to my parents' house. I wanted him to face the parents of someone he'd stolen from."

The penalty: a half-hour discourse on morals and life lessons from Mr. Raedle's father, all 6 feet 4 inches and 250 pounds of him.

This kind of payback is closer to what sociologists and philosophers call just-deserts retribution. Dr. John M. Darley, a professor of psychology and public affairs at Princeton University, said such actions involve a deliberate effort to tailor the retribution to the crime, often taking into consideration as many relevant details about the offender and the offense as possible.

In some cases it may be possible for people to assuage their feelings of outrage by publicly protesting the injustice. In one 2003 study, Dr. Harmon-Jones tracked the brain-wave patterns in students who had just been told the university was considering big tuition increases. They all got angry, he said, but signing a petition to block the increases seemed to give many some satisfaction.

Yet the nature of appetite-like urges, scientists say, is to err on the side of excess. Although soup and salad might suffice, hungry people dream of the dinner buffet. Likewise, those who feel wronged very often overdo it, engaging in extravagant, almost sensual fantasies of payback - of wrecking a household, snuffing a career, dancing on a grave.

"Think of the urge as kind of hunger, a lust, a deficit the brain is seeking to fill," Dr. McCullough said, "and you can see why revenge fantasies can be so delicious."

When people are committed to a relationship, studies suggest, they usually content themselves with a perfunctory quid pro quo for the day's small abuses: He's not helping with the party, let him find his own food. She's burning money on the cell phone, time to misplace it.

People are exquisitely sensitive, if not always conscious, of this subtle give and take and usually manage it without lashing out. But wisecracks or other offenses that challenge people's most cherished beliefs about themselves - their discretion, their generosity, their toughness, their intelligence - can prompt a craving for payback that goes much deeper.

"You're talking about small events in everyday life that can look insignificant until they touch some old conflict, some longstanding betrayal or shame the person carries," said Dr. Irwin Rosen, a psychoanalyst in Topeka, Kan., who studies the role of revenge in pathology.

Dismayed and ashamed at their own vulnerability, some people exact the revenge on themselves, Dr. Rosen said. What looks like self-defeating behavior or even masochism is fueled by a deep desire to hurt someone close. One of his former patients, a 32-year-old doctor, was drinking herself out of a career and had left a trail of ex-husbands, he said - partly, it came out in therapy, to get revenge on a brilliant father who had insisted on flawless devotion from his children.

Most vengeful acts are covert, researchers say, traveling in whispers and unforwarded phone calls, in knowing glances and nasty rumors.

Few people want to look vindictive.

"The ideal," said Dr. Robert Baron, a psychologist in the school of management at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in Troy, N.Y., who has studied workplace reprisals, "is to ruin the other person without him knowing what happened, without him knowing if anything happened."

Dr. Baron estimates that the ratio of indirect to direct acts of revenge is at least 100 to 1. As protective as this indirection is, however, it gives people a false sense of control. A person who feels deeply offended may respond with a half-payback - missing an appointment, lapsing into grim silence for a short period. This common ploy, Dr. Rosen said, allows people to feel they have retained the moral high ground. Consciously or not, they are giving themselves wiggle room to exact more payback, if they wish, because they have not delivered the full measure.

"The whole time you're saying to yourself, 'At least I haven't sunk to their level,' " Dr. Rosen said.

The problem, psychologists say, is that one man's restrained response is another's body blow. While acts of vengeance may be carefully measured, their impact is ultimately unpredictable, and they may invite the kind of backlash that turns a small grudge into a lawsuit. Many people Dr. Baron interviewed had waited for years to get even with others who had themselves probably forgotten the offense, plotting until they got an opportunity to "torpedo their enemy's career," he said. During the interviews, some even rubbed their hands together at the memory, like cartoon villains.

Chuck Moore, 52, a retired salesman living in Loveland, Ohio , said his mother had canceled his father's funeral at the last minute because she did not want anything good said about the man. "People came. The church was closed. Motto: watch out, the last word is by the living," Mr. Moore said in an e-mail message.

Researchers have found a number of ways people can peaceably satiate their hunger for revenge: Work to feel empathy for the other person. Savor what advantages you do have. Pledge to behave even if the urge for vengeance lingers - to behave, if not to forgive. Think for a while about the nasty things you have done.

But there is another option, said John Sawyer, 44, a Denver businessman who lived daily with an urge to exact revenge after being shot one February night in 1987 during a botched robbery attempt.

It took Mr. Sawyer six months to recover physically from the gunshot wound, and about a year before he stopped being angry at the three men who hurt him.

"I felt that forgiving them was its own kind of revenge," he said. "It showed they hadn't defeated me; it was like I had risen above what happened, and above them."

I guess this explains why when people put up a "How should I get back at..." thread it just takes off, and yet a "How can I help..." seems to flounder in comparision.

IMO vindictiveness and revenge are just petty and childish.

Glava · 07-27-2004, 09:06 AM

Sometimes, no revenge can be a form of revenge. Not responding after having been done wrong can make the perpetrator feel petty and immature.

water_boy1999 · 07-27-2004, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cynthetiq
IMO vindictiveness and revenge are just petty and childish.

Indeed they are....but they are also instinctive in our nature. I liked the thought of "just-deserts retribution". Sometimes it is almost impossible to swallow one's pride and walk away from a situation without some form of retribution. It this were the case, I prefer the "just-deserts retribution" route as opposed to "revenge".

lurkette · 07-27-2004, 10:33 AM

I SO understand the urge for revenge. The principal at our high school when my brother was in junior high was a complete and total asshole, a preening, egotistical fop who got off on exercising power. He ingratiated himself with our small town's elite (the guys who owned banks and businesses), so when said elite's bratty children started beating up on my brother when he smarted off to them, it was my brother who got detention for provoking them. On top of my parent's divorce, his medical disability (he had a genetic condition that made him look different and be unable to sweat), this sort of thing, which happened all the time to him and other kids whose parents didn't run in the right circles, made my brother's life a living hell. I fantasized about calling the principal's wife anonymously and telling her I was having an affair with her husband. I thought about sending him laxative-laced brownies. I thought about making up allegations that he molested me. Every time I imagined up with some new scheme, I would get a momentary rush of satisfaction, and then I'd think about how this would sully my own conscience. I'd be satisfied for a little while at his degradation, but I'd have to live forever with the knowledge that I had sunk to his level, that I was no better than he was.

On the other hand, when my brother was hit by a car and died a year+ ago, people were encouraging us to sue. It was a freak accident, technically the driver's fault, and there were bills to pay, Josh's "legacy" to consider (lawsuit money would have set up a heck of a memorial fund), blah blah blah. My dad was angry as hell and just couldn't live with the thought that there was nobody to blame. He wanted somebody to pay. I just couldn't see it, though. It wasn't what my brother would have wanted, and I didn't want to ruin someone else's life over this. I talked my dad out of suing.

We had the name of the driver of the car from the police report, and I wrote him a letter telling him we didn't blame him, and wanted him to have a good life. I got the most beautiful letter back from the driver, who was the same age as my brother. (I wrote about it in this thread: <a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35213">http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...threadid=35213</a>) That letter means so much to me, and I feel like something positive was accomplished through my brother's death. Instead of the momentary satisfaction of holding someone responsible, I have a moment of human connection and compassion to hold on to for the rest of my life, and help me remember who my brother was, and who I am because of him.

Revenge may be sweet, but kindness is sweeter.

DelayedReaction · 07-27-2004, 11:24 AM

I can agree with the need for revenge; I've often found myself verbally lashing back whenever people crack jokes at each other. It feels really good to get the last laugh.

The article really touched on a point with the concept of how people view revenge differently; what one person may consider normal another would consider extreme. The problem is attempting to empathize with other people, and curbing your own desire for revenge with the knowledge that what you may do is viewed as an extreme measure by others.

There's a South Park episode that really gets at this; the one where Cartman is stiffed out of some money by a 7th grader.

orphen · 07-27-2004, 09:44 PM

Even if its built in doesn't mean its "right" although i am not at all morally against it, but the fundemental aspect of moral (enlightenment/ Kantian) is to not do what our emotion/natural reaction lead us to but instead obey principle above all. i personally don't like to bottle up stuff, but just saying, a physical restriction makes it no less an "immoral" act in some philosophical system especially ones based on princple

Menoman · 07-28-2004, 01:35 AM

I think its ridiculous that someone can lookdown upon someone else calling certain things petty and immature, when they themselves have the same exact feelings. Unless of course they are not human?

Even if you do not partake in the "revenge" the fact that you think of it and want it, does that not make you just the same?

Some things deserve retribution, I'm not sure why it took a group of scientists to figure out that its a basic human feature though.

warrrreagl · 07-28-2004, 04:34 AM

As I get older, I've come to marvel at how true the old saying really is: The best revenge is living right.

lurkette · 07-28-2004, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Menoman
I think its ridiculous that someone can lookdown upon someone else calling certain things petty and immature, when they themselves have the same exact feelings. Unless of course they are not human?

Even if you do not partake in the "revenge" the fact that you think of it and want it, does that not make you just the same?

There's a big difference between wanting something and acting on that desire. I can absolutely understand the urge toward revenge, and can sympathize with people who have that urge. That doesn't mean I have to condone the actions of people who take matters into their own hands inappropriately. For me it's a matter of what kind of world we want to live in. I'd rather live in a world where people master their impulses and learn from experiences, not a world where "eye for an eye" is the norm. In the end, though, everyone has to make up their own mind and live with the consequences of their actions.

warrrreagl · 07-28-2004, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lurkette
There's a big difference between wanting something and acting on that desire.

Not according to Catholics. To quote George Carlin:
"It's a sin for you to WANT to feel up Ellen; it's a sin for you to PLAN to feel up Ellen; it's a sin for you to FIGURE OUT A PLACE to feel up Ellen; it's a sin for you to TAKE ELLEN TO THE PLACE to feel her up; it's a sin to TRY to feel her up; and it's a sin to FEEL HER UP. There are six sins in one feel, man."

orphen · 07-28-2004, 06:00 AM

Yeah it depends again on what moral system. For example, for Aristotle, it's your action that matters. Commiting crime/virtuous act by fluke does not define his moral. on the other hand, like warrregal pointed out, some people think by even thinking bout feeling up ellen you're committing a sin. but then, who said feeling up ellen was a sin to begin with..

Cynthetiq · 07-28-2004, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by warrrreagl
Not according to Catholics. To quote George Carlin:
"It's a sin for you to WANT to feel up Ellen; it's a sin for you to PLAN to feel up Ellen; it's a sin for you to FIGURE OUT A PLACE to feel up Ellen; it's a sin for you to TAKE ELLEN TO THE PLACE to feel her up; it's a sin to TRY to feel her up; and it's a sin to FEEL HER UP. There are six sins in one feel, man."

my thought along that lines was always, "If I'm going to be convicted before I commit the crime just for thinking it, I may as well commit the crime."

lurkette · 07-28-2004, 07:21 AM

Regardless of what the Catholics say, there's a big difference between wanting to punch someone in the face, and actually doing it. They'll put you in jail for the latter, while as yet there is no punishment for thinking about committing a crime. There may be no difference in the eyes of god (if you happen to believe in that sort of thing), but there is a difference in terms of physical consequences (broken nose and bruised fist), and moral (guilt) and legal (jail) consequences.

ARTelevision · 07-28-2004, 07:51 AM

I must have a genetic mutation on this one. I'm aware of this desire for revenge, because I've read about it and I see it in people. I can't find even a trace of it inside of me.

I don't make that sort of connection with other people at all. Why would anyone care about someone else's life to that degree? If that person's life carries unpleasant associations with one's own it would seem having nothing further to do with that person would also be hard-wired into us by virtue of our membership in the animal kingdom. Avoidance is a natural behavior too.

I see superstition and this urge for "justice" as the prime movers in what makes us religious beings. Too bad about that. Really too bad. It's one of the sorry aspects of the imagined difference between being an animal and being "human".

H12 · 07-28-2004, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ARTelevision
I see superstition and this urge for "justice" as the prime movers in what makes us religious beings. Too bad about that. Really too bad. It's one of the sorry aspects of the imagined difference between being an animal and being "human".

You can toss the belief of karma (sp?) into that, too.

tropple · 07-28-2004, 09:09 AM

True and everlasting revenge perfectly adjusts the final balance between good and evil.

Pftttt------------------>Pop!

OSOK always make things right.

Cynthetiq · 07-28-2004, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lurkette
Regardless of what the Catholics say, there's a big difference between wanting to punch someone in the face, and actually doing it. They'll put you in jail for the latter, while as yet there is no punishment for thinking about committing a crime. There may be no difference in the eyes of god (if you happen to believe in that sort of thing), but there is a difference in terms of physical consequences (broken nose and bruised fist), and moral (guilt) and legal (jail) consequences.

true. my statement was one I said to an old girlfriend that kept accusing me of cheating when I never ever did. I figured if I was to bear the pain of it, I may as well reap the sins since I'm being punished for it.

I do also find it interesting that when you post a thread that says, "How can I get back at..." you'll get lots of views and replies... but this one exploring why we do... well I guess it speaks about the community in a negative way.

ARTelevision · 07-28-2004, 10:11 AM

H12 - our idea of karma is pretty much just the combination of superstition coupled with a desire for justice.

rockogre · 07-28-2004, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ARTelevision
I must have a genetic mutation on this one. I'm aware of this desire for revenge, because I've read about it and I see it in people. I can't find even a trace of it inside of me.

I don't make that sort of connection with other people at all. Why would anyone care about someone else's life to that degree? If that person's life carries unpleasant associations with one's own it would seem having nothing further to do with that person would also be hard-wired into us by virtue of our membership in the animal kingdom. Avoidance is a natural behavior too.

I see superstition and this urge for "justice" as the prime movers in what makes us religious beings. Too bad about that. Really too bad. It's one of the sorry aspects of the imagined difference between being an animal and being "human".

Art, I always respect and enjoy your thoughts on things like this.

I seem to be genetically programmed in the other direction. I seek what I call "Justice" not only for myself, but for others that I think have been "wronged". Maybe I am a little closer to that animal than you, but I can't seem to live with being stepped on, pushed aside, or considered lesser somehow.

I also hate to see others treated in such a manner. I have, and always will, stand up against those that feel it is some kind of right to cheapen the rest of us. And, much as I hate to admit this, I enjoy seeing someone having to take some of their own medicine.

My only defense seems to be that I view revenge as payment in kind. I'm kind of old Testament that way, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

ARTelevision · 07-28-2004, 10:56 AM

rockogre, yes. I think the original post and others' comments do establish some "natural" "instinct" toward revenge. I wanted to posit a different one that is equally observable in animal/human behavior - avoidance of negative experience. That's a basic one too. So I figure we have some various ways of responding to things "hard wired" inside us. We're not just programmed to be one way.

Thanks.
Always good to hear from you.

lurkette · 07-28-2004, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cynthetiq
I do also find it interesting that when you post a thread that says, "How can I get back at..." you'll get lots of views and replies... but this one exploring why we do... well I guess it speaks about the community in a negative way.

It could be a function of the average age around here, but more likely it's just easier (and juicier) to think about ways to cause someone pain than it is to think of ways to make a (probably) complex situation better. It might also be a matter of empathy, or just simple information: To help someone, you probably need to know a bit about them and their motivations to be able to predict their response to a given action. You don't have to know much about someone to know that they're gonna be pissed about a bag of flaming poo on their porch.

Menoman · 07-28-2004, 08:50 PM

The thought and the act is only 1 step away from each other. Both are equal to the other if only with one thing different. (Self control)

I think that I understand where this argument is going to be divided up the middle. Half saying immature half saying gogojustice~

Here's my guess at what all the people on this thread will agree to.

Revenge is a necisary part of life. The "turn the other cheek" only works for so long, you can't be a person completely against all kinds of revenge or else your going to believe its OK to kill someone and get off without consequence. After all, Jail time is revenge for what you did.

Now if you get into Revenge for calling me a poopy eater donkey face. Perhaps there is where the Immaturity argue should be.

07-27-2004, 10:33 AM	#4 (permalink)
lurkette My future is coming on Moderator Emeritus Location: east of the sun and west of the moon	I SO understand the urge for revenge. The principal at our high school when my brother was in junior high was a complete and total asshole, a preening, egotistical fop who got off on exercising power. He ingratiated himself with our small town's elite (the guys who owned banks and businesses), so when said elite's bratty children started beating up on my brother when he smarted off to them, it was my brother who got detention for provoking them. On top of my parent's divorce, his medical disability (he had a genetic condition that made him look different and be unable to sweat), this sort of thing, which happened all the time to him and other kids whose parents didn't run in the right circles, made my brother's life a living hell. I fantasized about calling the principal's wife anonymously and telling her I was having an affair with her husband. I thought about sending him laxative-laced brownies. I thought about making up allegations that he molested me. Every time I imagined up with some new scheme, I would get a momentary rush of satisfaction, and then I'd think about how this would sully my own conscience. I'd be satisfied for a little while at his degradation, but I'd have to live forever with the knowledge that I had sunk to his level, that I was no better than he was. On the other hand, when my brother was hit by a car and died a year+ ago, people were encouraging us to sue. It was a freak accident, technically the driver's fault, and there were bills to pay, Josh's "legacy" to consider (lawsuit money would have set up a heck of a memorial fund), blah blah blah. My dad was angry as hell and just couldn't live with the thought that there was nobody to blame. He wanted somebody to pay. I just couldn't see it, though. It wasn't what my brother would have wanted, and I didn't want to ruin someone else's life over this. I talked my dad out of suing. We had the name of the driver of the car from the police report, and I wrote him a letter telling him we didn't blame him, and wanted him to have a good life. I got the most beautiful letter back from the driver, who was the same age as my brother. (I wrote about it in this thread: <a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35213">http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...threadid=35213</a>) That letter means so much to me, and I feel like something positive was accomplished through my brother's death. Instead of the momentary satisfaction of holding someone responsible, I have a moment of human connection and compassion to hold on to for the rest of my life, and help me remember who my brother was, and who I am because of him. Revenge may be sweet, but kindness is sweeter. __________________ "If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France

07-27-2004, 11:24 AM	#5 (permalink)
DelayedReaction BFG Builder Location: University of Maryland	I can agree with the need for revenge; I've often found myself verbally lashing back whenever people crack jokes at each other. It feels really good to get the last laugh. The article really touched on a point with the concept of how people view revenge differently; what one person may consider normal another would consider extreme. The problem is attempting to empathize with other people, and curbing your own desire for revenge with the knowledge that what you may do is viewed as an extreme measure by others. There's a South Park episode that really gets at this; the one where Cartman is stiffed out of some money by a 7th grader. __________________ If ignorance is bliss, you must be having an orgasm.

07-28-2004, 04:34 AM	#8 (permalink)
warrrreagl pinche vato Location: backwater, Third World, land of cotton	As I get older, I've come to marvel at how true the old saying really is: The best revenge is living right. __________________ Living is easy with eyes closed.

07-28-2004, 07:21 AM	#13 (permalink)
lurkette My future is coming on Moderator Emeritus Location: east of the sun and west of the moon	Regardless of what the Catholics say, there's a big difference between wanting to punch someone in the face, and actually doing it. They'll put you in jail for the latter, while as yet there is no punishment for thinking about committing a crime. There may be no difference in the eyes of god (if you happen to believe in that sort of thing), but there is a difference in terms of physical consequences (broken nose and bruised fist), and moral (guilt) and legal (jail) consequences. __________________ "If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France

07-28-2004, 07:51 AM	#14 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	I must have a genetic mutation on this one. I'm aware of this desire for revenge, because I've read about it and I see it in people. I can't find even a trace of it inside of me. I don't make that sort of connection with other people at all. Why would anyone care about someone else's life to that degree? If that person's life carries unpleasant associations with one's own it would seem having nothing further to do with that person would also be hard-wired into us by virtue of our membership in the animal kingdom. Avoidance is a natural behavior too. I see superstition and this urge for "justice" as the prime movers in what makes us religious beings. Too bad about that. Really too bad. It's one of the sorry aspects of the imagined difference between being an animal and being "human". __________________ create evolution

07-27-2004, 09:06 AM	#2 (permalink)
Glava Betitled	Sometimes, no revenge can be a form of revenge. Not responding after having been done wrong can make the perpetrator feel petty and immature.

07-27-2004, 09:44 PM	#6 (permalink)
orphen Insane	Even if its built in doesn't mean its "right" although i am not at all morally against it, but the fundemental aspect of moral (enlightenment/ Kantian) is to not do what our emotion/natural reaction lead us to but instead obey principle above all. i personally don't like to bottle up stuff, but just saying, a physical restriction makes it no less an "immoral" act in some philosophical system especially ones based on princple

07-28-2004, 06:00 AM	#11 (permalink)
orphen Insane	Yeah it depends again on what moral system. For example, for Aristotle, it's your action that matters. Commiting crime/virtuous act by fluke does not define his moral. on the other hand, like warrregal pointed out, some people think by even thinking bout feeling up ellen you're committing a sin. but then, who said feeling up ellen was a sin to begin with..

07-28-2004, 09:09 AM	#16 (permalink)
tropple Junkie	True and everlasting revenge perfectly adjusts the final balance between good and evil. Pftttt------------------>Pop! OSOK always make things right. __________________ +++++++++++Boom!

07-28-2004, 10:11 AM	#18 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	H12 - our idea of karma is pretty much just the combination of superstition coupled with a desire for justice. __________________ create evolution

07-28-2004, 10:56 AM	#20 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	rockogre, yes. I think the original post and others' comments do establish some "natural" "instinct" toward revenge. I wanted to posit a different one that is equally observable in animal/human behavior - avoidance of negative experience. That's a basic one too. So I figure we have some various ways of responding to things "hard wired" inside us. We're not just programmed to be one way. Thanks. Always good to hear from you. __________________ create evolution