'Exercising Right' Called 'Unreasonable' by Some - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Cynthetiq · 07-15-2004, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Guns Worn In Open Legal, But Alarm Va.
'Exercising Right' Called 'Unreasonable' by Some

By Tom Jackman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, July 15, 2004; Page A01

On July 2, Fairfax County police received a 911 call from a Champps restaurant in Reston. Six men are seated at a table, the caller said. They're all armed.

Dispatchers quickly sent four officers to the scene. The officers were "extremely polite" and were hoping that some of the men were in law enforcement, said Sgt. Richard Perez, a spokesman for the police department. None was.

The men told the officers "they were just exercising their rights as citizens of the commonwealth," Perez said.

Turns out, packing a pistol in public is perfectly legal in Virginia. And three times in the last month, including at Champps on Sunset Hills Road, residents have been spotted out and about in the county, with guns strapped to their hips, exercising that right.

In the first episode, at a Starbucks, Fairfax police wrongly confiscated weapons from two college students and charged them with a misdemeanor. Police realized their mistake, returned the guns and tore up the charges the next day. Police commanders have since issued a reminder to officers that "open carry" is the law of the land in the Old Dominion.

Philip Van Cleave, president of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, an organization of thousands of Virginia gun owners, said members were involved in all three police encounters. But he said there was no coordinated campaign to start packing heat publicly.

"It was probably more of a coincidence, but not completely," Van Cleave said, noting that word of the improper confiscation spread quickly among members through e-mail. "This is a good opportunity to educate people. We have this inherent right, and not many people exercised it."

In Virginia, as in many states, carrying a concealed weapon requires a permit, issued by a local court. But no permit is required to simply wield a gun in the open, a right reinforced by a state law that took effect July 1. Not so in the District and Maryland, unless you're a police or federal officer.

Fairfax police are baffled by the sudden display of weaponry but assume it was done to make some sort of statement.

"Crime is at 20-year lows in the county," Lt. Col. Charles K. Peters pointed out, even though the population is soaring. The county's homicide rate was the lowest in the nation last year among the 30 largest jurisdictions. "Hopefully no one feels the need to carry a gun, lawfully or unlawfully," Peters said. "But there's no question it is lawful to carry a gun on the street. So we've had to ensure that all of our officers are updated on the nuances of Virginia law that allow citizens to carry firearms in public places."

Although legal, it is disconcerting to some people.

"This just shows you the extreme nature of what they're trying to do," said Bob Ricker, head of Virginians for Public Safety. "You don't want to go to Starbucks or Reston Town Center and see somebody with a firearm strapped on," he added, referring to two locations where armed patrons were found. "It's just something that I think is completely unreasonable. We all understand the concept of self-defense. . . . But when you're talking about Fairfax County, you have to look at what is reasonable."

The first incident, at a Starbucks on Leesburg Pike near Tysons Corner, might have inspired other gun owners to carry openly. It began shortly before 10 p.m. June 14, Perez said, with a complaint from a citizen. Police arrived to find a 19-year-old man carrying a .22-caliber pistol and a 21-year-old man with a 9mm pistol.

Perez said an officer spoke with the men, then took their guns and charged them with possession of a firearm in a public place. Virginia law 18.2-287.4 expressly prohibits "carrying loaded firearms in public areas."

But the second paragraph of the law defines firearms only as any semiautomatic weapon that holds more than 20 rounds or a shotgun that holds more than seven rounds -- assault rifles, mostly, Van Cleave said. Regular six-shooters or pistols with nine- or 10-shot magazines are not "firearms" under this Virginia law.

The day after the arrest, the officer consulted with a county prosecutor and determined that "he had erred," Perez said. He summoned the two men to the McLean District station, returned their weapons and dropped the charges.

Van Cleave said word of the incident, along with news of a similar incident in Richmond, spread through the defense league's e-mail alert system. "I think people were saying, 'I think I do want to open carry,' " Van Cleave said, though he added the league neither encourages nor discourages the practice.

Carrying weapons openly was not unprecedented locally, Van Cleave said. He said that the defense league has a monthly meeting in Northern Virginia with 25 to 30 members and that most go out to dinner afterward with their sidearms openly visible. "We've had 40 people open carry, in a restaurant, with no problem," he said.

Three days after the incident at Champps, a married couple were walking their dogs down Market Street, the busy thoroughfare in the heart of Reston Town Center, about 3 p.m. In addition to pistols on their hips, Perez said, both the man and woman were carrying an extra magazine of ammunition. An officer spoke with them and was informed that they were members of the defense league and were aware of the Starbucks incident. Perez said the officer took no further action, although Van Cleave said a lieutenant arrived and urged Town Center security to eject them.

Managers at the Starbucks, Champps and Town Center all declined to comment.

Van Cleave said the gun owners might have been out celebrating a law that took effect July 1. Virginia statute 15.2-915 now completely prohibits any locality from enacting any regulations on gun ownership, carrying, storage or purchase, except for rules related to the workforce. Alexandria, for example, had an ordinance prohibiting openly carrying guns. It is now invalid, Van Cleave said.

"It's like the Fourth of July," Van Cleave said. "A whole new set of freedoms came in. . . . All local gun control is completely and totally gone."

Legislators said they passed the bill to eliminate duplicative regulations, particularly in counties such as Fairfax, which imposed its own gun permit process in addition to the federally mandated background check.

Openly carrying weapons is "not a good idea," said Kristen Rand of the Violence Policy Center in Washington. "This is the gun lobby's vision of how America should be. Everybody's packing heat and ready to engage in a shootout at the slightest provocation."

Ricker said the gun owners "are probably doing their cause more harm than good by raising this issue. It raises an awareness and gives people who are more rational thinkers the opportunity to go to their legislators and make their views known."

Van Cleave said most gun owners, particularly defense league members or concealed weapon permit owners, are law-abiding. Anti-gun forces "have come to think guns themselves are evil. You've got to worry about the person, not the gun."

link
----------

**** CAUTION *****

This is NOT a debate on the merits of guns and gun control. Please do NOT use this thread for posting those kinds of comments they will be removed without notice. If you want to debate that please go to Tilted Politics.

**** CAUTION *****

Knowing and excersing your rights is an important thing. One should always know what the laws are concerning them, since "Ignorance of the law does not excuse someone." This is a good example of people knowing and excercising them.

Journeyman · 07-15-2004, 07:23 AM

Yeah I seem to recall an old story I heard about some Hell's Angels being brought up on charges of carrying a concealed firearm, so they all started wearing their guns on their hips.

Kinda makes you wish they kept them hidden. Out of sight, out of mind, you know?

SaltPork · 07-15-2004, 07:31 AM

We were at a flea market in the next town over last weekend and there were a bunch of people walking around with guns strapped to their hips. Scary in one way, kind of cool in another, more base way. In any case, it did make me feel uncomfortable, but they have the legal right to do so.

animosity · 07-15-2004, 07:49 AM

Im not sure why people get so upset about people carrying guns... I really feel a lot better when I see people with guns. I know they are prepared to use them if necessary, so im going to stay close to them in case some shit goes down.

I have a friend that has a concealed weapon permit, but she still has it strapped to her hip. I guess as an intimidation tactic. I know I wouldnt mess with her.

I really have no use for a gun myself, I have a short fuse and I know that having a weapon is just asking for trouble.

---Sometimes I do carry a big knife on my belt. but that is rare.

Polyphobic · 07-15-2004, 07:55 AM

That's not for me. I'd end up shooting myself in the foot.

User Name · 07-15-2004, 07:58 AM

Even if carrying guns in public is legal in Virginia, don't private businesses have the right to refuse to serve or even eject anyone from their property? On the other hand, I suppose they don't want to mess with gun owners themselves.

Bill O'Rights · 07-15-2004, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Ricker said the gun owners "are probably doing their cause more harm than good by raising this issue. It raises an awareness and gives people who are more rational thinkers the opportunity to go to their legislators and make their views known."

That was my thought, after reading up to the sixth paragraph.

Overall, I'd have to say that just because you have a right to do something...doesn't necessarily mean that you should. There is a time, and a place for everything, and I'm not so sure that this is it. When you're exercising your rights, you might do well to also exercise a little common sense.

Oh...and for the record...I am, most definately, pro Second Amendment and people like this;

Quote:

"This is the gun lobby's vision of how America should be. Everybody's packing heat and ready to engage in a shootout at the slightest provocation." Kristen Rand-Violence Policy Center

just piss me off no end.

NoSoup · 07-15-2004, 08:38 AM

Quote:

"This is the gun lobby's vision of how America should be. Everybody's packing heat and ready to engage in a shootout at the slightest provocation." Kristen Rand-Violence Policy Center

Agreed BOR, apparently, just because you carry a gun makes you an agitated, violent, crazy, illogical warmonger that freaks out and shoots everything when the local gas station doesn't have their type of energy drink...

Give me a break. Why are comments like this necessary? Owning a gun does not make you "ready to engage at the slightest provocation" Where do people come up with this? Statistically speaking, there are far fewer gun-related deaths, and even fewer murders, from people that legally carry, concealed or not.

Cynthetiq · 07-15-2004, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill O'Rights
That was my thought, after reading up to the sixth paragraph.

Overall, I'd have to say that just because you have a right to do something...doesn't necessarily mean that you should. There is a time, and a place for everything, and I'm not so sure that this is it. When you're exercising your rights, you might do well to also exercise a little common sense.

Oh...and for the record...I am, most definately, pro Second Amendment and people like this;

just piss me off no end.

it's definitely about the common sense...

Casus Belli · 07-15-2004, 08:54 AM

Why would those guys want to walk around packing a gun? I just don't get it.

tropple · 07-15-2004, 08:57 AM

Open carry was legal when I was stationed at MCAS Yuma in Arizona.

It was damned convenient.

water_boy1999 · 07-15-2004, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cynthetiq
Knowing and excersing your rights is an important thing. One should always know what the laws are concerning them, since "Ignorance of the law does not excuse someone." This is a good example of people knowing and excercising them.

Yes, but doesn't it seem a little weird that someone would exercise their rights to carry a gun at Starbucks? Back to common sense.

fhqwhgads · 07-15-2004, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by water_boy1999
Yes, but doesn't it seem a little weird that someone would exercise their rights to carry a gun at Starbucks? Back to common sense.

It can happen anywhere.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...9/cooper27.htm

An excerpt, in case you don't want to read the full story:

"Mary Caitrin Mahoney, one of three victims shot and killed in a botched robbery at a Starbucks coffeehouse, nearly escaped from the gunman charged in the killings, making it to the sidewalk outside the store before the man caught her and wrestled her back inside.

Then the shooting rampage began."

water_boy1999 · 07-15-2004, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fhqwhgads
It can happen anywhere.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...9/cooper27.htm

An excerpt, in case you don't want to read the full story:

"Mary Caitrin Mahoney, one of three victims shot and killed in a botched robbery at a Starbucks coffeehouse, nearly escaped from the gunman charged in the killings, making it to the sidewalk outside the store before the man caught her and wrestled her back inside.

Then the shooting rampage began."

Well, I stand corrected. But this is an isolated incident as well.

I would say more but we are not allowed to in this thread because it might lead into a debate on morals and justifications of carrying a concealed weapon.

Bentley Little · 07-15-2004, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by animosity
Im not sure why people get so upset about people carrying guns... I really feel a lot better when I see people with guns. I know they are prepared to use them if necessary, so im going to stay close to them in case some shit goes down.

I think you hit on a great point. If you see someone carrying a gun, I would tend to think; [that as the police officer in the linked story said "that those who carry are law-abiding"], that they are law-abiding. Criminals know they are going to do something illegal and would therefore not want people to notice them and such would conceal their weapon.

*edit: fixed html code*

Cynthetiq · 07-15-2004, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by water_boy1999
Yes, but doesn't it seem a little weird that someone would exercise their rights to carry a gun at Starbucks? Back to common sense.

no.... I'm on my way from point a to point b and I happen to already be carrying. What I leave it unattended in my car? that's NO common sense right there.

Drive back home and leave it then head to starbucks and then back again? again... no common sense there.

Now the person you are citing was planning on ROBBING the store... so I don't get what your point is here....I'm supposed to have common sense but the robber isn't? WTF?

Peetster · 07-15-2004, 12:11 PM

Quote:

"But when you're talking about Fairfax County, you have to look at what is reasonable."

Translation: You have to look at what I consider reasonable.

I work in Fairfax, btw.

Averett · 07-15-2004, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by animosity
Im not sure why people get so upset about people carrying guns... I really feel a lot better when I see people with guns. I know they are prepared to use them if necessary, so im going to stay close to them in case some shit goes down.

I wouldn't feel the same way. How am I supposed to know that the person knows how to use his or her gun properly? Personally if I saw people with guns out in the open I would be very uncomfortable.

Cynthetiq · 07-15-2004, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Averett
I wouldn't feel the same way. How am I supposed to know that the person knows how to use his or her gun properly? Personally if I saw people with guns out in the open I would be very uncomfortable.

LOL and you watch people all the time driving down the road operating a vehicle completely improperly, and you don't cower every time a car comes by....

do you?

Averett · 07-15-2004, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cynthetiq
LOL and you watch people all the time driving down the road operating a vehicle completely improperly, and you don't cower every time a car comes by....

do you?

Sometimes

water_boy1999 · 07-15-2004, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cynthetiq
no.... I'm on my way from point a to point b and I happen to already be carrying. What I leave it unattended in my car? that's NO common sense right there.

Drive back home and leave it then head to starbucks and then back again? again... no common sense there.

Now the person you are citing was planning on ROBBING the store... so I don't get what your point is here....I'm supposed to have common sense but the robber isn't? WTF?

My point is, I won't get into the moral debate of carrying a concealed weapon because that is not the route you chose to take in posting this thread.

As Bill O Rights said:
...just because you have a right to do something...doesn't necessarily mean that you should. There is a time, and a place for everything, and I'm not so sure that this is it. When you're exercising your rights, you might do well to also exercise a little common sense.

I don't think an isolated incident like this gives reason for gun-toting Americans to start carrying their arms into Starbucks or other places where it is generally unneccessary. That's all I meant.

Bentley Little · 07-15-2004, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cynthetiq
LOL and you watch people all the time driving down the road operating a vehicle completely improperly, and you don't cower every time a car comes by....

do you?

You have to remember that when you are debating, referencing topics as analogies does not serve to bolster the argument. The topics are unrelated and cannot serve to help one another. The are separate.

Driving recklessly has nothing to do with guns, although I completely understand your point.

The real issue at hand is the legality of carrying.

And I completely agree with quote:
"But when you're talking about Fairfax County, you have to look at what is reasonable."

Translation: You have to look at what I consider reasonable.

Most of these politicians who make the laws forbidding us "commoners" to carry, do themselves carry, which they are legally allowed to do so. Hippocracy. Fuck yes! Why are they so much better or omnipotent then us.

Cynthetiq · 07-15-2004, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by water_boy1999
My point is, I won't get into the moral debate of carrying a concealed weapon because that is not the route you chose to take in posting this thread.

As Bill O Rights said:
...just because you have a right to do something...doesn't necessarily mean that you should. There is a time, and a place for everything, and I'm not so sure that this is it. When you're exercising your rights, you might do well to also exercise a little common sense.

I don't think an isolated incident like this gives reason for gun-toting Americans to start carrying their arms into Starbucks or other places where it is generally unneccessary. That's all I meant.

well lets take what you are talking about at a level... let's take it generic.. since it's about "generally unneccessary" for your purposes....

so in that vein.. Is it "generally unneccessary" for a person to bring porn/sex toys/birth control in their backpack/briefcase to work/school even though they are going to a rendevouz with their SO?

Bentley Little - if you read my initial post it's not about the legality of carrying.... it's about Rights, knowing them and excersing them. My analogy is not much to do with the argument but to point out the absurdity of someone saying they don't feel comfortable around a gun because of someone's "knowledge of use". Yet there are plenty of people out there day to day that use things that they should not because they use them equally recklessly. IMO the car analogy is pretty equal since we are desensitized to having to deal with autos on a day to day basis, we don't necessarily deal with arms (depending on where you live.)

zfleebin · 07-15-2004, 02:09 PM

I have open carried before a couple times in Colorado, only to comply with the laws because I didnt have a permit at the time. If you asked me today whether I thought open carry was a good idea I would say only if you feel like you have to make a political statement. Open carry can be tactical in some ways but it is not very tactful. I prefer to carry my guns (one at a time) in moderate to deep concealment so that I have access to them but dont make people feel uncomfortable or pay too much attention to me. This is a personal decision because I like to blend into society. Then, when people find out that I am a gun owner and have a concealed carry permit (almost nobody knows this) they realise that gun owners arent a special breed of people that fit the stereotypes society has established for them. I believe that if people are trained in firearms and are taught exactly how they work they will see that there is nothing for them to fear about a gun in a holster. I mean think about it, you might be afraid that a gun in a holster might randomly go off or that the person wearing the gun might accidentally make it go off but where do you think the muzzle is pointing? In my case the muzzle is covering my ass and I promise you I would not have a loaded .40 caliber pistol pointing at my ass unless I knew what the hell I was doing. The safety on my gun (beretta) also disengages the firing pin so even if I threw the gun across the room with a bullet chambered that gun is just going land and have a screwed up finish.

MSD · 07-15-2004, 02:40 PM

I think that a group of citizens carrying openly is a hell of a lot more likely to deter an armed robber than the possiblity that some are carrying concealed weapons. I think this will have quite a positive effect on the crime rate, and when people realize just how many around them carry responsibly, it will improve the image of responsible gun owners and dispel some myths about gun onwerhsip.

With that said, I think it's normal for people to feel uncomfortable until they get accustomed to it.

hrdwareguy · 07-15-2004, 02:41 PM

I will admint that seeing people open carry is a bit strange at first. I know people who um..work in environments where people open carry all the time. To visit them and see people just walking around with guns on their hips is strange for about 2 minutes, then I get used to it.

This is the only thing that makes me pause is this:

Quote:

The first incident, at a Starbucks on Leesburg Pike near Tysons Corner, might have inspired other gun owners to carry openly. It began shortly before 10 p.m. June 14, Perez said, with a complaint from a citizen. Police arrived to find a 19-year-old man carrying a .22-caliber pistol and a 21-year-old man with a 9mm pistol.

Last time I checked, you had to be 21 to legally own a pistol. Given this, I could see where the 19 year old might be in violation of the law. However since he was with a 21 year old, it gets into some grey area.

Aside from that, if the law says you can open carry, do so if you feel you need to on whatever level. Just be prepared to answer to the cops a lot because people are going to freak out and call in on you.

I don't think it will be long before the legislature in VA tries to ammend the law and prevent open carry.

matteo101 · 07-15-2004, 02:58 PM

I am very much anti guns..in all ways shapes or forms, but because it is legal in the US, there is nothing unreasonable about open carry of guns. I do however disagree with the concept. I just don't feel that kid's need to be seeing people carying guns. It is one thing to tell them that we have a gun locked up in our homes just incase. But it is another thing for kids to be constantly seeing guns.

yabobo · 07-15-2004, 03:25 PM

I think it's a great idea. I think it will help in the long run. Some kid may change his mind and go to church instead of bashing a drug store, bank or your mother.
I've lost my right to carry a firearm,long story, but I still have many shotguns and rifles to keep the peace with. God only knows why. I have never used a firearm nor do I wish the experience. But pray to your maker you don't hurt my family,
I'm not affraid to load or use. God Bless The USA.

yabobo · 07-15-2004, 03:46 PM

I just want to add a little more to my last post. Just by holding a firearm doesn't make me a crazed criminal or someone who wants to hurt you. I know I don't speak for all thugs. I just feel that there are so many bad people that want to hurt you or your family that with the proper training we the people can stop a lot of stupid crimes.
I love my life,and I respect (love) what you you have choosen.
The absolute worst thing I could do is hurt another life.
There isn't enough law enforcement to protect us all.
Educate yourself love your neighbor,but don't be stupid.
You must be able to help yourself and not count totally on others to keep you safe.

Cynthetiq, I hope this is the type of answers for the thread you are looking for. This is heart felt and has no political impilcation

Hoping we all can can get along!

yatzr · 07-15-2004, 04:01 PM

i agree with those who said it's a good idea. I like the quote from Grand Theft Auto 3

Quote:

If more people had guns, there'd be less crime in america

or something along those lines.

I think it would also make everyone nicer since nobody would want to piss someone off if they had a gun.

edit: I'd also like to say that if we had gun education in school, I think less people would feel uncomfortable about it. I think it should be paralleled with sex education

! If you're educated, you're safer. Safe guns and sex for all!

shakran · 07-15-2004, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cynthetiq
link
----------

**** CAUTION *****

This is NOT a debate on the merits of guns and gun control. Please do NOT use this thread for posting those kinds of comments they will be removed without notice. If you want to debate that please go to Tilted Politics.

well this thread might not be a debate on gun control, but it seems to me that these guys are purposely starting one. I have to wonder if maybe they DON'T like open-carry and are wandering around armed like that in order to try and get people to demand that the law be changed.

matteo101 · 07-15-2004, 04:21 PM

Quote:

If more people had guns, there'd be less crime in america

can somebody please try and explain this to me...im from Canada..and I just do not get it..im racking my brain..but i just can't understand

yournamehere · 07-15-2004, 05:22 PM

I remember when I first moved to Arizona , it freaked me out a little to see guys walking down the street with a gun strapped to their hip. I got used to it after awhile though, realizing it's the guy that's hiding his gun that I should worry about.

I didn't care for it when I tended bar, though - we made everyone check their guns - the guns went behind the bar, the owner kept all the bullets. At least that way, there were never <i>loaded</i> guns in the bar.

Journeyman · 07-15-2004, 05:23 PM

The aptitude for criminals to commit violence in the open would dwindle. That's about all I can figure... but then again, capital punishment has been reported as having no dettering effects, so I dunno.

Boo · 07-15-2004, 05:31 PM

I wear a gun whenever in the bush. I have had 3 instances where it has turned an ugly confrontation into a polite one. It seems to have a calming effect on assholes and drunks.

IMO - People using guns as legal tools should be free to. People afraid of them need to take some gun classes so they are aware of the risks and dangers.

Bentley Little · 07-15-2004, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cynthetiq
well lets take what you are talking about at a level... let's take it generic.. since it's about "generally unneccessary" for your purposes....

so in that vein.. Is it "generally unneccessary" for a person to bring porn/sex toys/birth control in their backpack/briefcase to work/school even though they are going to a rendevouz with their SO?

Bentley Little - if you read my initial post it's not about the legality of carrying.... it's about Rights, knowing them and excersing them. My analogy is not much to do with the argument but to point out the absurdity of someone saying they don't feel comfortable around a gun because of someone's "knowledge of use". Yet there are plenty of people out there day to day that use things that they should not because they use them equally recklessly. IMO the car analogy is pretty equal since we are desensitized to having to deal with autos on a day to day basis, we don't necessarily deal with arms (depending on where you live.)

I want to say I did read the original post and I don't want to sound like a jerk here, but with just text, things can be taken out of context....so, I did say in my post that the issue was the legality of carrying, so I thought I was pointing to that when I stated And I completely agree with quote:
"But when you're talking about Fairfax County, you have to look at what is reasonable."

Translation: You have to look at what I consider reasonable.

But I agree that your analogy, with explanation does make sense, but wasn't necessary, you could have just stated that in the first place. We have place laws so that when people break them, they will be punished. Hence gun laws. I could say to your point "saying they don't feel comfortable around a gun because of someone's "knowledge of use"" that I do not feel comfortable around trucks (drivers) on the highway at night because more than half of them have a severe lack of sleep and could very easily cause an accident. Or any other type of discomfort. The fact is that we as citizens under the constitution have a legal right to carry firearms, and no, not every person is mentally capable of using one properly, but so as with everything else, there will always be bad seeds.

kel · 07-15-2004, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Well, I stand corrected. But this is an isolated incident as well.

You actually believe that? Dude violent crime has increased tenfold since 1960. PER CAPITA... not overall...

Right on. I wish open carrry was legal everywhere. I personally wouldn't choose to carry openly. If I did carry I would have to hide it from my family and even my girlfriend because they will think I am scared and weak. Sad but true, they've all openly professed this.

It seems to be the reaction evoked from most people. What part of "it can happen anywhere" do people not understand?

matteo101 · 07-15-2004, 06:08 PM

Threatening people with weapons is not my style..but to each their own.

Cynthetiq · 07-15-2004, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bentley Little
I want to say I did read the original post and I don't want to sound like a jerk here, but with just text, things can be taken out of context....so, I did say in my post that the issue was the legality of carrying, so I thought I was pointing to that when I stated And I completely agree with quote:
"But when you're talking about Fairfax County, you have to look at what is reasonable."

Translation: You have to look at what I consider reasonable.

But I agree that your analogy, with explanation does make sense, but wasn't necessary, you could have just stated that in the first place. We have place laws so that when people break them, they will be punished. Hence gun laws. I could say to your point "saying they don't feel comfortable around a gun because of someone's "knowledge of use"" that I do not feel comfortable around trucks (drivers) on the highway at night because more than half of them have a severe lack of sleep and could very easily cause an accident. Or any other type of discomfort. The fact is that we as citizens under the constitution have a legal right to carry firearms, and no, not every person is mentally capable of using one properly, but so as with everything else, there will always be bad seeds.

no worries

and what you or I consider reasonable my not meet eye to eye ever, so we try to put some stock in having a mediating reasonable person give us a reasonable answer to help dispel the greys and missing space.

it is odd now that I think about it that one has the constitutional right to bear arms, but not necessarily the right to propel themselves across the country by their own means. One is guaranteed the rights to freely move about the country without worry, but driving in all states is still a privilige and not a right.

I could live without a gun, but in most places in America one needs to be able to transport themselves self sufficiently and not have to wait for someone else or ineffective public transportation.

joeb1 · 07-16-2004, 04:20 AM

Open carry is not that big of a deal. At least not in my eyes. I really don't know about this group. But gun clubs such as the ones in my area are normally very strict on gun safety. And teach proper gun discipline. If it is their right, it needs to be exercised.
I would have to agree with "yournamehere" I would be more worried about the guy packing the concealed weapon. At least with open carry. You know where it will come from if something ever does go down.

07-15-2004, 07:31 AM	#3 (permalink)
SaltPork Everything's better with bacon Location: In your local grocer's freezer.	We were at a flea market in the next town over last weekend and there were a bunch of people walking around with guns strapped to their hips. Scary in one way, kind of cool in another, more base way. In any case, it did make me feel uncomfortable, but they have the legal right to do so. __________________ It was like that when I got here....I swear.

07-15-2004, 07:55 AM	#5 (permalink)
Polyphobic Runt Location: Denver	That's not for me. I'd end up shooting myself in the foot. __________________ <--The great infidel-->

07-15-2004, 08:57 AM	#11 (permalink)
tropple Junkie	Open carry was legal when I was stationed at MCAS Yuma in Arizona. It was damned convenient. __________________ +++++++++++Boom!

07-15-2004, 03:25 PM	#28 (permalink)
yabobo Lust Puppy Location: in your closet and in your head...	I think it's a great idea. I think it will help in the long run. Some kid may change his mind and go to church instead of bashing a drug store, bank or your mother. I've lost my right to carry a firearm,long story, but I still have many shotguns and rifles to keep the peace with. God only knows why. I have never used a firearm nor do I wish the experience. But pray to your maker you don't hurt my family, I'm not affraid to load or use. God Bless The USA. __________________ Why do they sterilize the needle for lethal injections? Only in America......do we use the word 'politics' to describe the process so well: 'Poli' in Latin meaning 'many' and 'tics' meaning 'bloodsucking creatures'.

07-15-2004, 03:46 PM	#29 (permalink)
yabobo Lust Puppy Location: in your closet and in your head...	I just want to add a little more to my last post. Just by holding a firearm doesn't make me a crazed criminal or someone who wants to hurt you. I know I don't speak for all thugs. I just feel that there are so many bad people that want to hurt you or your family that with the proper training we the people can stop a lot of stupid crimes. I love my life,and I respect (love) what you you have choosen. The absolute worst thing I could do is hurt another life. There isn't enough law enforcement to protect us all. Educate yourself love your neighbor,but don't be stupid. You must be able to help yourself and not count totally on others to keep you safe. Cynthetiq, I hope this is the type of answers for the thread you are looking for. This is heart felt and has no political impilcation Hoping we all can can get along! __________________ Why do they sterilize the needle for lethal injections? Only in America......do we use the word 'politics' to describe the process so well: 'Poli' in Latin meaning 'many' and 'tics' meaning 'bloodsucking creatures'.

07-15-2004, 07:23 AM	#2 (permalink)
Journeyman Like John Goodman, but not. Location: SFBA, California	Yeah I seem to recall an old story I heard about some Hell's Angels being brought up on charges of carrying a concealed firearm, so they all started wearing their guns on their hips. Kinda makes you wish they kept them hidden. Out of sight, out of mind, you know?

07-15-2004, 07:49 AM	#4 (permalink)
animosity on fire Location: Atlanta, GA	Im not sure why people get so upset about people carrying guns... I really feel a lot better when I see people with guns. I know they are prepared to use them if necessary, so im going to stay close to them in case some shit goes down. I have a friend that has a concealed weapon permit, but she still has it strapped to her hip. I guess as an intimidation tactic. I know I wouldnt mess with her. I really have no use for a gun myself, I have a short fuse and I know that having a weapon is just asking for trouble. ---Sometimes I do carry a big knife on my belt. but that is rare.

07-15-2004, 07:58 AM	#6 (permalink)
User Name Banned Location: Urf	Even if carrying guns in public is legal in Virginia, don't private businesses have the right to refuse to serve or even eject anyone from their property? On the other hand, I suppose they don't want to mess with gun owners themselves.

07-15-2004, 08:54 AM	#10 (permalink)
Casus Belli Crazy	Why would those guys want to walk around packing a gun? I just don't get it.

07-15-2004, 02:09 PM	#24 (permalink)
zfleebin Addict	I have open carried before a couple times in Colorado, only to comply with the laws because I didnt have a permit at the time. If you asked me today whether I thought open carry was a good idea I would say only if you feel like you have to make a political statement. Open carry can be tactical in some ways but it is not very tactful. I prefer to carry my guns (one at a time) in moderate to deep concealment so that I have access to them but dont make people feel uncomfortable or pay too much attention to me. This is a personal decision because I like to blend into society. Then, when people find out that I am a gun owner and have a concealed carry permit (almost nobody knows this) they realise that gun owners arent a special breed of people that fit the stereotypes society has established for them. I believe that if people are trained in firearms and are taught exactly how they work they will see that there is nothing for them to fear about a gun in a holster. I mean think about it, you might be afraid that a gun in a holster might randomly go off or that the person wearing the gun might accidentally make it go off but where do you think the muzzle is pointing? In my case the muzzle is covering my ass and I promise you I would not have a loaded .40 caliber pistol pointing at my ass unless I knew what the hell I was doing. The safety on my gun (beretta) also disengages the firing pin so even if I threw the gun across the room with a bullet chambered that gun is just going land and have a screwed up finish.

07-15-2004, 02:40 PM	#25 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	I think that a group of citizens carrying openly is a hell of a lot more likely to deter an armed robber than the possiblity that some are carrying concealed weapons. I think this will have quite a positive effect on the crime rate, and when people realize just how many around them carry responsibly, it will improve the image of responsible gun owners and dispel some myths about gun onwerhsip. With that said, I think it's normal for people to feel uncomfortable until they get accustomed to it.

07-15-2004, 02:58 PM	#27 (permalink)
matteo101 In transition Location: north, no south abit, over to the right, getting warmer...there!	I am very much anti guns..in all ways shapes or forms, but because it is legal in the US, there is nothing unreasonable about open carry of guns. I do however disagree with the concept. I just don't feel that kid's need to be seeing people carying guns. It is one thing to tell them that we have a gun locked up in our homes just incase. But it is another thing for kids to be constantly seeing guns.

07-15-2004, 05:22 PM	#33 (permalink)
yournamehere Invisible Location: tentative, at best	I remember when I first moved to Arizona , it freaked me out a little to see guys walking down the street with a gun strapped to their hip. I got used to it after awhile though, realizing it's the guy that's hiding his gun that I should worry about. I didn't care for it when I tended bar, though - we made everyone check their guns - the guns went behind the bar, the owner kept all the bullets. At least that way, there were never <i>loaded</i> guns in the bar. __________________ If you want to avoid 95% of internet spelling errors: "If your ridiculous pants are too loose, you're definitely going to lose them. Tell your two loser friends over there that they're going to lose theirs, too." It won't hurt your fashion sense, either.

07-15-2004, 05:23 PM	#34 (permalink)
Journeyman Like John Goodman, but not. Location: SFBA, California	The aptitude for criminals to commit violence in the open would dwindle. That's about all I can figure... but then again, capital punishment has been reported as having no dettering effects, so I dunno.

07-15-2004, 05:31 PM	#35 (permalink)
Boo Leave me alone! Location: Alaska, USA	I wear a gun whenever in the bush. I have had 3 instances where it has turned an ugly confrontation into a polite one. It seems to have a calming effect on assholes and drunks. IMO - People using guns as legal tools should be free to. People afraid of them need to take some gun classes so they are aware of the risks and dangers. __________________ Back button again, I must be getting old.

07-15-2004, 06:08 PM	#38 (permalink)
matteo101 In transition Location: north, no south abit, over to the right, getting warmer...there!	Threatening people with weapons is not my style..but to each their own.

07-16-2004, 04:20 AM	#40 (permalink)
joeb1 Crazy Location: Over Yonder	Open carry is not that big of a deal. At least not in my eyes. I really don't know about this group. But gun clubs such as the ones in my area are normally very strict on gun safety. And teach proper gun discipline. If it is their right, it needs to be exercised. I would have to agree with "yournamehere" I would be more worried about the guy packing the concealed weapon. At least with open carry. You know where it will come from if something ever does go down. __________________ Disco Duck...