BoCo

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Pizza man saved by gun, but fired for packin' heat
Prosecutors call it 'clear case of self-defense,' yet national chain prohibits carrying firearms
Posted: June 1, 2004, 1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

A pizza deliveryman won't face charges for fatally shooting a would-be robber several times when he was approached in a high-crime area, but his employer, Pizza Hut, has fired him for violating a company policy against carrying firearms.

Ronald B. Honeycutt, 38, who has a permit to carry a concealed weapon, says he's been delivering pizzas for 20 years and has always packed heat on the job.

According to a report in the Indianapolis Star, prosecutors announced Friday the Carmel, Ind., man will not face criminal charges.

"It's a clear case of self-defense," Deputy Prosecutor Barb Crawford said. "He did what the law allows him to do to protect himself."

Jerome Brown-Dancler approached Honeycutt at around 11 p.m. on May 17 just after he had made a pizza delivery in Indianapolis. According to the report, Brown-Dancler pointed a 9 mm handgun at the Pizza Hut employee as he was entering his van.

Brown-Dancler's gun carried a loaded 14-round clip but had no bullet in the chamber, Crawford told the Star. When confronted, Honeycutt pulled his own 9 mm from the back of his pants and fired until it was empty. He says he fired 15 times in about eight seconds. An autopsy revealed Brown-Dancler was hit at least 10 times.

According to the report, Honeycutt insists Brown-Dancler didn't fall until after the last shot was fired.

"The guy kept standing. He knew he was injured when he fell," Honeycutt told the paper. "His concern was he made an error, and the only thing he could say when I was grabbing his gun off the ground was, 'I just wanted pizza.'"

After the encounter, Honeycutt took Brown-Dancler's gun, fearing it might be stolen if it was left with the body. He got in his van, drove to the Pizza Hut restaurant where he worked and told his manager to call police, Crawford said.

"This was late at night. This was a high-crime area," Crawford is quoted as saying. "He left because he wasn't sure whether or not Brown-Dancler had any friends with him. As it turns out, he did indeed have friends with him. They left when they heard shots fired."

Honeycutt says he plans to find another job delivering pizzas.

"Other criminals better think twice, because I'm going back out there," he said, "and I know I'm not alone in the way I think about this."

Some Pizza Hut customers have complained to the company after it fired Honeycutt.

"I hope those of you in the media will realize the incredible unfairness of a huge company telling its employees – in essence – they must agree to die for the company rather than use legal reasonable means to defend themselves," Rick Whitham, an Indianapolis attorney, told WND. He says he saw Pizza Hut's action as "clear discrimination against those who choose to lawfully exercise a legal, heavily regulated right."

Whitham wrote to the company: "I don't spend my money with businesses that openly discriminate against people such as myself who understand that the police have no affirmative duty to protect any particular citizen and that no company is worth dying for – particularly yours."
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WarWagon

Do I think he should be fired? No. Are a lot of these policies by employers stupid? Absolutely. My father works for UPS, who has the same policies. If you see some of the ghettos these people have to deliver in, you'd think that they need a lot more than a pistol for self defense.

BoCo

I like how he completely unloaded the clip on the guy. It ensures he won't be coming back and filing a lawsuit.

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Blackthorn

What a crazy story. The guy claims "to only want pizza". Hmmm...funny way of placing the order by pulling a loaded 9mm.

Here's a kick in the ass for you: I can't even count the number of times that I have NEVER been shot when I've ordered a pizza without pulling out a loaded 9mm.

Honeycutt should not have been fired and Pizza Hut should know better. I wish I could say I'd be boycotting Pizza Slut but I never eat there now so I guess that's a wash as far as they are concerned.

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1337haxor

100% agreed
If one is pushed to the point of pulling a out a gun in self-defense, you bet they will empty that thing.

-Robert

denim

I can't boycott them either. I wouldn't buy from them. I'm not the only one, as their local store closed years ago.

Bill O'Rights

Hmmm...do I think that Ronald Honeycutt was within his rights to take Jerome Brown-Dancler down? Absolutely.
On the other hand, I also think that Pizza Hut is within thier rights to fire him. It sucks, but it is thier company policy for thier drivers to not be armed. I should imagine that the legal ramifications would be staggering otherwise. Can you imagine the lawsuits against Pizza Hut? Are the packs of hungry lawyers going to come after the pizza delivery man...or the corporation? No brainer there.
Honeycutt's was a clean legal incident, but what about the next time, and the time after that? No, like I said, although it sucks, and may seem unfair, Pizza Hut is making a decision here based on the best interests of the company.

That said...kudos to Ronald Honeycutt. Does the world mourn one less 9mm toting "gangsta"? I think not.

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Pacifier

Hmm, this story makes me wonde about the american "culture" of self defence.
When is it acceptabel to kill a person? Imagine a robber come to you with a weapons and wants your money. Is it OK to kill him? Kill this guy for, lets say 50$?

A couple of moth ago here in germany a homeowner shot some robbers. One of them was shot in the back as he was trying to run away. Would that be OK in the US?

For me shooting 15 shots at him sounds a bit disproportional, but i guess thats just me.

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WarWagon

In the US, if you shoot a man in the back, you're fucked.

BoCo

Pacifier, when a man is pointing a gun at you, it is absolutely acceptable to shoot back. His self defense had less to do with being robbed and more to do with defending his own life.

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Pacifier

sure, it is acceptable and understandable. but on the other hand how high are the chances that he will kill you? I mean how many holdup murders are there in the US? Here in Germany I would be pretty sure that he will take my money and then go away, and I will rather give him ~20€ that to kill a person.
And like I said 15 shots seem a bit disproportional

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"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
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BoCo

The U.S. is obviously far different than Germany in that regard. People in bad areas have died simply for their Nikes.

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DelayedReaction

In the middle of a crisis situation you're going to have the time to statistically analyze the situation, produce a probability of survival, and then make a decision based on that probability?

No. You're going to shoot the motherfucker. You're going to shoot him until you are sure he's dead.

Pizza Hut shouldn't discriminate based on what legal rights their employees decide to execute. This man delivered to them for 20 years to high crime areas, and they expect him to die for a pizza?

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MSD

I would take the word of a man who reacted to a gun being pulled on him. Even if the robber was on the ground, I would not fault Honeycutt for shooting him if he was still able to fire. I would rather se a mess of a dead attacker in front of me than someone who was probably crippled, but still potentially able to attack me. The fact that there was no bullet in the chamber is irrelevant. At an outside observation point from which the presence of a bullet in the chamber cannot be confirmed or denied, the only safe assumption is that it is loaded and therefore dangerous. I call this theory "Schröedinger's Glock"

...even if he's holding your family hostage.

Here's my analysis of the situation. A man was hired for at-will employment, subject to certain terms and conditions. If he was unwilling to meet those terms and conditions, he should have left the job and found a company to work for who would allow him to carry a legitimate, licensed defensive weapon. While I disagree with the company's decision to prohibit delivery personnel from carrying defensive weapons into high-crime areas, I cannot fault them for terminating an employee for violating the terms of his legally binding contract on which he placed his signature upon being hired.

Pacifier

It is not about an analysis, its just how it would work here in germany. In fact most people here aren't armed.

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rat

Ok, having worked for Pizza Hut as a delivery driver at one of their corporately-owned stores here locally, I can attest to the fact that not only were we NOT allowed to carry weapons while working, but we were also told to cooperate with any robbery attempts made upon our person or the store, regardless of any training or weapons we may have that would incline us to do otherwise.

The maxim is this: YOU CAN ALWAYS MAKE MORE MONEY, BUT YOU CAN'T RESURRECT DEAD EMPLOYEES

Makes a little bit of sense from a corporate standpoint, doesn't it? To codify in company policy that you value your people more than you value the money in the cash drawer or safe...that's an uncaring corporation there. The policy is instituted to prevent any would-be heroes that weren't as lucky as the above driver from being injured in a misguided attempt to "protect the company"

The guy knew this when he started working there, and it's reinforced in the training. He accepted the potential negative consequences of his action when he chose to carry the handgun.

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1337haxor

HAHA, thats great!

-Robert

Stud

If Pizza delivery people were known to carry guns eventually you would have some clown(s) ordering Pizza not because they were hungry but for the under 30 minutes or it's free gun delivery.

pan6467

Pathetic. Truly sad that we have people who feel it is ok to put 10 rounds of a 9MM into a man, and even joke about it. I would say after the second, third shot the guy ain't gonna shoot back. A fourth or fifth time the guy's gonna be half dead. This was pure vigilantism and malice and has no right being a part of my country. You want to defend yourself fine, I have no problem with that, but 10 rounds????? Jesus, enough is enough.

This country gets sadder by the minute. When did we become so bloodthirsty and celebratory of another man's violent death?

The kicker is the victim's gun was not loaded (no bullet in the chamber), your clip can be full but till you have a bullet in the chamber it's not loaded. This driver hopefully and rightfully so should be put into jail for a very long time.

(PS, I delivered pizzas for Domino's (38th and Central store) in the worst part of Indy for over a year. I was robbed at gunpoint, and the robbers were as scared as I was. All you need is to add the fear that the driver now has a gun and they won't just point the gun and take the money, they'll fucking cap the guy before he can do anything then take whatever they want. Think about that as you celebrate what this one driver did, because he probably has cost a lot of drivers to be shot in the near future.

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Stud

And how would you tell this when a gun is pointed at you?

ARTelevision

He did OK - he saved his own life, but he lost a dead-end job.

Here's wishing him the best for the future. There's more out there than P-Hut.

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water_boy1999

So, would you rather the front headlines in the paper read, "Pizza Delivery guy dies at hands of hungry robber"? Who gives a shit if it was 10 rounds that put him down or if it was 1? The point is, I am glad someone finally stepped up to the plate and did something about the robbery situation rather than just become another victim.

And who says we are being celebratory because a low-life robbery was killed while in the act of robbing an innocent person? It's not about celebrating the robber's death, rather, I am celebrating the delivery guy's life.

In addition, if you add fear that drivers now carry guns, maybe robbers will think twice about stealing from them instead of, "fucking cap the guy before he can do anything then take whatever they want."

*pure vigilantism and malice and has no right being a part of my country.* Where is the vigilantism and malice in this? If the dude is still standing, I would do the same thing if I had a gun and a permit to carry it. The last thing this guy needs is for the robber to get one last shot in before he hits the pavement....the shot that conveniently makes it's way to the drivers head. With all due respect, I find your response to be a bit naive.

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animosity

yupp, when i was a kid i was always told "if you are going to shoot someone u better make sure you kill them."

i like how this guy has been delivering pizza for 20 years and still plans on doing so.

hrdwareguy

WarWagon: here in Oklahoma, as long as the person is on your property you can tag them...doesn't matter if it's front or back.

Pacifier: When going through most concealed carry classes you are tought 1) If you pull your gun you better be willing to use it 2) Don't stop until they are on the ground and no longer a threat.

If the guy didn't fall until the last shot then continuing to shoot is justified. If however they can prove he was on the ground in like 5, and the other 10 were while he was on the ground, then the shooter would be toast.

pan: When using deadly force, you are authorized to do so if you feel there is dagner to your own life. the robber could have pulled out a pocket knife and the shooter could have done the same thing and been within his rights. It's about protecting your own life not about only being able to shoot someone 5 times.

Look at people on dope. They don't have the senses to know they've been shot so they keep coming at you. It takes a lot to stop these people.

BTW, there have been studies where after a police officer has been involved in a shooting, they are asked how many rounds they fired. The most common answers are 2 or 3, meanwhile in reality the officer has emptied his clip and reloaded. In this situation, all you do is react, you point and shoot and worry about counting when you're picking up the brass.

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raeanna74

I'm not going to gamble with my life. If anyone threatens me with a gun they are in a sense announcing that they will shoot and injure me. There are enough armed robberies where the victim is left for dead in the end even if they cooperate. I'm not going to take that chance with my life. He pulls a gun on me, displaying a lack of respect for my life and well-being, he reliquishes all rights to respect for his own life.

If I had a gun and shot someone out of defense you can bet I will not leave him alive if there is any possibility that he would do me any more harm, even in court.

Pizza Hut is within their rights. I don't think that their choice is a wise one. If they desire their employees to not carry firearms then they should offer self defense classes for those whom they send to deliver in high crime areas. Otherwise they could simply require that the employee take a course in handling a gun responsibly. That would at least protect the company. They could also have the drivers sign a release, absolving the company of responsibility if they do end up using the weapon in self defense.

There's enough other choices for the company that placing their employees in the face of danger without allowing them to arm themselves is foolish and irresponsible.

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denim

I guess you were there! Please tell us about the situation as you saw it on the spot.

merkerguitars

My local cop told me to always kill and not wound an intruder.

And also...who is to say if you cooperate with a robber, either delivery guy or in the store, they won't shoot anyways...just cause you give them money doesn't mean they won't shoot.

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AngelicVampire

If you pull a gun you expect to use it.

There is no way to tell that a gun is not loaded from looking at it, unless the clip isn't in and the breach is open.

He was within his rights and sensibly put the guy down, a threat is a threat even when wounded, in fact if he had left the guy he would probably have been more likely to shoot the PizzaGuy as he had been shot... killing him removes the threat and stops being sued for "damages".

p0thead

Wow, so you're saying that within that 5-20 seconds or so of having a gun pulled on you, you can look through the chambers and identify whether or not there is a bullet? On top of that, he should just let himself get robbed? I don't know about anyone else here but I would totally disagree with everything you have to say including sentencing the pizza delivery man to jail for a "very long time" for an act of self defense.

DelayedReaction

A 9mm round isn't that big. Depending on where he shot him the guy could easily still be standing. And it was 15 rounds.



People always celebrate when they defend themselves. Self-defense is a concept that is universally approved; it's a form of natural instinct. And we are not bloodthirsty; nobody has come out yet calling for the death of more felons as a result of this man's success. What would you have us do? Shoot the man for legally defending himself?



BULLSHIT. ALL guns are considered loaded until personally verified that they aren't. Are you telling me that, if you were in this situation, you would stop to confirm that he really has bullets?

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raeanna74

In the past I have worked at a local Sports store behind the counter selling guns. We had many law enforcement personel in our store quite regularly. Several told me and other workers and customers several things which included -

1. If you plan to shoot in self defense that you should shoot to kill to prevent the criminal bringing charges against you for injury.

2. Never shoot a man in the back. You will be held responsible.

3. Always consider a gun (or look alike gun) loaded.

The last rule we followed in the gun store religiously. Before we handed any gun to a customer for inspection we were required to open the chamber and remove the clip to ensure that it's not loaded. Then there were instances when teenage kids thought it would be funny to come in and put bullets in our guns while we were looking. We were lucky on more than one occaision that we opened everything before handing the guns over and regularly went through the rifles to inspect that they weren't loaded.

I will still follow those rules.

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mingusfingers

I think their hands were kinda tied in this situation-I'm sure many people don't want bullets on their pizza (anyone?), so the policy was made-and they couldn't just ignore it.

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Fremen

I think it would have been prudent to save a few rounds in the clip just in case those friends of his had jumped in.

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cj2112

This guy did exactly what he should have done in this situation. His actions were to stop the threat and get away as soon as possible. This is exactly what i was taught to do in my recent concealed weapons permit class. Did he need to kill the guy? I don't know i wasn't there, but I believe that if he has carried a gun for 20 years and up until this incident, had not used it, odds are he's probably not some vigilante out lookin for trouble.
I promise you that if you draw a weapon on me in a threatening manner, I will shoot you, and that the odds of you surviving that encounter are not very good. It is not only my right to defend myself, but as a parent, I view it as my responsibility.
Pizza Hut was justified in firing him, as he knowingly violated their policy, thereby creating the possibility for an expensive lawsuit.

Journeyman

When he comes to you with a weapon and wants your money, he's sending the message that he's GOING to kill you for $50. I don't kill him because I want to keep the money, I would kill him because he's a very real threat to my life, and my life is worth more than his considering I've just met him and didn't like my first impression of him. I know that it's probably not even 50% of the time where it's they're actually going to take your life if they can't take your wallet, but when they point a gun to you, that's the message they send and you shouldn't respond any other way.

I'm not going to lie: You point a gun at me, I'll give you anything you damn well want without a peep, but when muggers end up dead on the ground they've got no sympathy for losing a dangerous game they chose to play.

rat

Alot of the people in this thread seemed to have missed the entire point of the article and its subsequent link into this thread. The point being made was not whether the robber was/should-have-been shot, but about the company policy that cost the man his job for performing a legal (though admittedly contrary to company policy) act while in employment for Pizza Hut, Inc. Ethics of murder/self-defense aside, that is the issue of this thread. It's been taken rather off-topic by the last half-dozen or so posts. Let's stick to the issue--analysis of the policy that cost the man his job.

Regarding that, and having been a former employee of Pizza Hut, I offer this defense of their policy, and yes, I do take the corporate standpoint and back them 100%

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KWSN

My uncle once worked for Domino's and got robbed no less than 3 times, one of the times he was tied to a chair and beaten nearly to death, even after being cooperative. The guy he was on the job with was even less lucky and is now paralyzed from the waist down because they shot him twice for fun. He got nothing back from the job. Neither did the other guy. Pizza Hut are fucking morons. THEY should give HIM a gun. Complete and utter bullshit, thats like firing a bodyguard for carrying a pistol.

Not all robbers are acting with compassion, mind you. If that's what Pizza Hut think they can go fuck themselves.

I M H O.

EDIT: And for the people who complain about the "celebratory" nature of the death, killing a criminal is not a bad thing. It is a right that people have. If people did not have that right, violent deaths would skyrocket. This was not a murder. A murder is something that can be frowned upon. A killing in self defense should not be celebrated necessarily but at the same time should not be frowned upon.

If you'd rather no one ever died I believe that's your problem.

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DelayedReaction

The policy is foolish. Telling employees that they should never defend themselves acts against human nature; you always defend yourself as best you can if you percieve your life to be in mortal danger. If your best defense is cooperation, then you do that. But cooperating isn't easy when you feel you're microseconds away from death.

I think Pizza Hut should present a policy of intelligent restraint. They should provide training for their employees on how to handle themselves in these situations, and explain what to do. If they want to fire employees for defending themselves, that's their business and their rules. But I would rather they take an active role in the safety of their employees, and educate them in what to do in these situations.

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rat

The facts are that the overwhelming majority of businesses/corporations that are in the industries involving cash registers and/or delivery drivers support policies of compliance with any would-be robberies.

Compliance has been statistically correlated with fewer injuries and/or fatalities when it comes to robbery/standoff situations in these places of business. Whether it be a corporately owned gas station, a restaurant, a store, or any other cash-handling business, the numbers of stores supporting compliance far outweigh any that do not.

There are several issues at hand. One, legal duty to maintain and promote the safety of one's employees to the best of the company's abilities. As stated above, there are far fewer injuries and fatalities in situations involving compliance with demands. The company has a duty to its employees to advocate the course that provides them the best chances of survival or safety from harm. Two, there lies a liability to the company if one of its employees uses excessive force in restraining/disarming any would-be robber on its premises or during the execution of the employees work (ie, on a delivery). In many states, homicide self-defense is only legal if lethal force is first used upon the person defending himself, and ONLY if that person has no chance to flee. This duty to flee creates greater issues when there is a driver with an automobile on a delivery. Excessive restraint/force is grounds for both criminal damages and civil suits in America. Simple fact of life. It's the same reason the police can not simply beat you with nightsticks if you tell them you won't exit your automobile after a traffic stop. They can remove you from your car, but not club you unconscious unless you resist to such an extent as to place their safety in danger. Thirdly, if a delivery person were to chase a would-be robber and the robber ditched their weapon, they could even make a case for assault and battery against the driver if the weapon is not found nearby or their are no witnesses. Add to that the possibility of criminal trespass to private property if any chase goes through the property of other homeowners, and now you're staring at even MORE liability.

Last thing I'd like to point out is that even if convicted, the robber could pursue legal damages through civil court, where the statutes of evidence are not "beyond a reasonable doubt" but rather a "preponderence of the evidence"--simply put, if it's better odds than a coin flip that the company's employee(s) overstepped their bounds, the company will probably end up settling out of court for a hefty sum.

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