BuDDaH

I am sure the "back" function on your browser works, so use it.
Second, no, it isn't besides the point.

I educated those that want to believe anything beside the truth, I am not afraid to bring it in anyones face..

Being Belgian, I can understand your lack of knowledge in a discussion like this, so I'll forgive you.
Most of the people are replying in negative responses to the article and they don't even understand the grounds the lawsuit is made on.

They think the Black Americans are looking for a "hand-out". Most of this lawsuit is based on the promise the government made with the "Emancipation Proclamation".
(40 acres and a mule were GUARANTEED to slave and freed slaves.) It was never honored.

But I cannot let something get misconstrued and not speak about it. I am not saying anything that is "my" point, everything I have shown has been a DOCUMENTED fact. And what has been going on, is all I hear is someone's opinion with NO facts to back it up.

In other words, if you have nothing more to add on, then move along to another thread...

If you stay on, prepared to get schooled..

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I'd hit that so hard whoever could pull me out would become King of England!

Nisses

If this discussion is necessary, then why not make a different thread about it.

This originally wasn't about racism and A.A. at all.

If you want somebody's opinion with facts to back it up, read yatzr's post.

It's a documented fact that you are living in america, and so are alot of other black people. Just take out your ID.

It's also a documented fact, that living conditions in africa are alot worse. Just read any newspaper, any magasine, any report on the matter.
So while you are maybe not in the most equal position, couldn't it be possible you are better off in the US than there?

That's all he was saying really.

You told me to research the lawsuit and to research the companies. I did so, and still am not convinced. Yet you let that pass. Is it because I am right then? Is it because it's not worth explaining just because it wasn't asked by an american? Is that why I was forgiven?

And just because I made a suggestion you don't like, shouldn't mean I have to get out of the thread.

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Moderation should be moderately moderated.

BuDDaH

What I said still stands...


I am not arguing HIS point. You need to see what the original START of this thread and how it started.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wi...-regional-wire

The Americans stole people from Africa, then dumped them after using them for generations. It doesn't matter if HE thinks Black Americans are better off living in America than in Africa.
I believe if you are born here, you are American. If you can prove your linage and find the people responsible for that and PROVE they made money off your family by SLAVERY, they should be held accountable. They DENIED those people the FREE WILL and CHOICE from their lives. Someone must be held accountable for that. They took over 15,000,000 people out of Africa. Africa was a very much advanced country then at that time, what if they NEVER came there?

Africa might not be in the shape it is in now had not people depleted and exploited it for its diamonds, gold, oil and other natural resources. (I bet you didn't look at it the other way around, did you?)
I did.

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I'd hit that so hard whoever could pull me out would become King of England!

Nisses

And so does what I said

I did see the original start of this thread. If you'll read my other posts, that's the whole reason I started arguing here

Here's what I believe: you are born there, you are american. You may make a claim if you find the people responsible. Exactly like you.

In this case, they didn't. That's what the judge ruled. That there wasn't a direct link, so they shouldn't/can't be held accountable.

And africa might be a very different continent, indeed. It might still have it's same structure and culture. However there is no proving that now, is there?
I'm sorry to say I had thought this through. And if you would do research on belgium, you'd know we have direct connections to the matter, so it's not a wonder my thoughts took me there.

So, they *did* take them to america. How about they had left yours there? Then you would still be living there, in the current circumstances...
Now see my point? And yatzr's?
We're not arguing that it was bad. We're not arguing whether it happened. We're just saying all in all, you didn't get the short end of it. Those that were left behind in the remnants, and more so their descendants, did.

__________________
Moderation should be moderately moderated.

BuDDaH

What you ask has been proven before and you are speaking about fact thats the general American public knows about those companies. It isn't for mr to convince you about something most Americans know but don't want to see.. And they have PROOF and RECORDS to BACK their claims up.

But doing that is like making cigarette compnaies responsible for all cancer victims who smoked..

That would break up alot of big businesses..

But just for you, I'll make a thread and really bring all those points to light.
Then, you'll see what this is all about..

And sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was putting you down...

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I'd hit that so hard whoever could pull me out would become King of England!

Nisses

Ok, I'm glad you would take the effort

And don't worry, even if you sounded like that, I wouldn't start to flame or anything. I enjoy a good discussion.

__________________
Moderation should be moderately moderated.

H12

So sad, so true.

__________________
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit."
--Aristotle

phyzix525

Seriously you have to back this one up, I cannot believe there is a school in america that would not allow blacks, even in alabama. There would be people protesting everyday outside its doors. I would be right there with them.(shocker!) The only thing that should keep someone from going to a school (outside of gender) is not being able to pass the entrance exam.

On a related note, I don't know if you heard this guy that had graduated from Notre Dame talking on the radio about how ND needs to lower its entrance exam(GPA whatever) standards in order to get the black players. You can't win without the black players, sort of a back handed complement.

But seriously BuDDaH you gotta believe I am all about fair and equal rights. But I also believe that you should earn those promotions not let AA do it for you. That is alot of why white people don't always like the blacks because of things like AA. some black people get more then what they deserve at some places. But without it some would get no promations at all, so I can see the "need" for it. If white people would just treat everyone fairly we would not need AA but because of a few blacks that were not getting rightly promoted, you get alot that have not deserved it at all. It is a bitter circle. damned if you do damned if you don't.

Just one last thing, I am not a racist, if I don't like you, it would have nothing to do with your skin, but mearly your attitude.

woOt?

That's s touchy subject I'll stay out of..

yatzr

buddha, since you're obviously never gonna change your opinion (even the slightest) or even listen to me, i find it useless to argue with you, even if I am simply pointing out the obvious. I do have some thoughts though.

edit: that sounded worse than i wanted it to be after i read it. I meant it in the way that some stranger on the internet has no affect on your beliefs...which is really a good thing, and that me trying to affect them is pointless, so I'm just wasting space with these posts now. But i'm gonna keep on at it anyway .

I agree if you can find the people who did it, they should be punished....but that's the thing. Anyone who did it is dead. You will not find anyone alive (at least i hope) who owned slaves. If a man kills your father and then dies, would you go after his son? I'd sure hope not. I agree that the government still owes the land and mule, but that's the government...that's not a shipping company.

I'm seriously gonna hafta see proof of how much advanced africa was. I mean they enslaved their own people. When were they going to decide to stop that and make everybody equal?

as for the resources, look what resources did to the middle east. Any place that actually has resources like that has not faired very well. The world is a cruel place.

I would really like to see if you can come up with anything on how advanced africa was. I've never heard anything about it, so I don't know...maybe you can change my mind.

__________________
Mechanical Engineers build weapons. Civil Engineers build targets.

BuDDaH

I haven't made an opinion yet, don't you see.
Everything I have thrown in this thread has been backed by facts..

You haven't heard MY opinion yet...

__________________
I'd hit that so hard whoever could pull me out would become King of England!

phyzix525

well I am still waiting on you to back up your "facts" on the college that will not let in blacks.

__________________
It's hard to remember we're alive for the first time
It's hard to remember we're alive for the last time
It's hard to remember to live before you die
It's hard to remember that our lives are such a short time
It's hard to remember when it takes such a long time

yatzr

so what was the stuff you backed with facts? just words you decided to randomly type? Are you saying you actually go against all the facts you've been posting? and hows that info on how africa was advanced coming?

__________________
Mechanical Engineers build weapons. Civil Engineers build targets.

kutulu

Buddah seems like a bit of a racist.

How the hell was Africa advanced back then? Did they have guns? Ships capable of navigating the globe? Half of the technology the Asians and Europeans had?

What you have been posting is unrelated to the topic.

BuDDaH

Let me see, since I DO have to work and have a life and studied African AND American History, I don't know what I'm talking about and I might be a racist....
Hmm.....

"Supporters of reparations speak of the plunder and destruction of the African continent, and of slavery itself, where more than 250 years of uncompensated black labor helped build America. Slavery has contemporary psychic and physical victims, the argument runs, in black poverty, violence, and the existence of two separate and unequal societies. Underneath and behind these are black despair and hopelessness, the worst heritage of slavery and discrimation."

Let's flip the script a sec and point out and bring forward a question: Do you think America would be where it is WITHOUT Black Americans or slaves?


I think not, America had it good with the slaves and most of the "modern" technologies YOU use everyday have been discovered by Black scientists or based on techniques used in Africa... Just because I point it out makes me racist, too?

My race has never suppressed or enslaved any American.

You don't have to have naval power or guns to be advanced in this world. (The American Fleet back then BECAME the biggest in the world because of the slavery trade mind you...) You speak about how the slaves or Black Americans are having it good now, but you speak like you "know" a few thousand Black people and speak for them.

That shows me you don't know what you speak of. You don't know anything. How long have Blacks been over in America? Do you know? I do. Everything they have now has been hard-earned
and they still come up short. You think America GAVE it to them?

Do YOU know what the Emancipation Proclimation was all about?
You said slavery was a "small piece of the pie". When you said that, I laughed because you then showed you don't know anything.. The whole Civil War was about ending slavery. You only take what you want and then speak like you know it.
Here's a "refresher": Emancipation Proclamation

" Whereas on the 22nd day of September, A.D. 1862, a proclamation was issued by the President of the United States, containing, among other things, the following, to wit:

"That on the 1st day of January, A.D. 1863, all persons held as slaves within any State or designated part of a State the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States shall be then, thenceforward, and forever free; and the executive
government of the United States, including the military and naval authority thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of such persons and will do no act or acts to repress such persons, or any of them, in any efforts they may make for their actual freedom.

"That the executive will on the 1st day of January aforesaid, by proclamation, designate the States and parts of States, if any, in which the people thereof, respectively, shall then be in rebellion against the United States; and the fact that any State or the people thereof shall on that day be in good faith represented in the Congress of the United States by members chosen thereto at elections wherein a majority of the qualified voters of such States shall have participated shall, in the absence of strong countervailing testimony, be deemed conclusive evidence that such State and the people thereof are not then in rebellion against the United States."

Now, therefore, I, Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States, by virtue of the power in me vested as Commander-In-Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States in time of actual armed rebellion against the authority and government of the United States, and as a fit and necessary war measure for supressing said rebellion, do, on this 1st day of January, A.D. 1863, and in accordance with my purpose so to do, publicly proclaimed for the full period of one hundred days from the first day above mentioned, order and designate as the States and parts of States wherein the people thereof, respectively, are this day in rebellion against the United States the following, to wit:

Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana (except the parishes of St. Bernard, Palquemines, Jefferson, St. John, St. Charles, St. James, Ascension, Assumption, Terrebone, Lafourche, St. Mary, St. Martin, and Orleans, including the city of New Orleans), Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, and Virginia (except the forty-eight counties designated as West Virginia, and also the counties of Berkeley, Accomac, Morthhampton, Elizabeth City, York, Princess Anne, and Norfolk, including the cities of Norfolk and Portsmouth), and which excepted parts are for the present left precisely as if this proclamation were not issued.

And by virtue of the power and for the purpose aforesaid, I do order and declare that all persons held as slaves within said designated States and parts of States are, and henceforward shall be, free; and that the Executive Government of the United States, including the military and naval authorities thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of said persons.

And I hereby enjoin upon the people so declared to be free to abstain from all violence, unless in necessary self-defence; and I recommend to them that, in all case when allowed, they labor faithfully for reasonable wages.

And I further declare and make known that such persons of suitable condition will be received into the armed service of the United States to garrison forts, positions, stations, and other places, and to man vessels of all sorts in said service.

And upon this act, sincerely believed to be an act of justice, warranted by the Constitution upon military necessity, I invoke the considerate judgment of mankind and the gracious favor of Almighty God. "
(Let me see you dodge that..)

Want to see how many times this government made promises and failed to honor them to slaves? The government made laws to put an end to slavery and STILL these businesses forced FREED BLACKS into slavery?

http://www.toptags.com/aama/docs/docs.htm

(Check it out and look ESPECIALLY at the timeline before you open your mouth. It's all in there.)
I bet you'll only see what you want to and want to argue over bullshit points you want to make. Not before you acknowledge that this country fucked up big time.

You all are prolly afraid that Blacks have a legitimate claim.
Damn, that will cost the goverment BILLIONS.. Now you then know WHO will pay for it. (Taxpayers.)

Wow! All this time you have been paying for them to shoot $2 million missles at camels thousands of miles away, and you want to justify why you shouldn't honor a contract that the government made. Thats a no-brainer..

What was the year they knocked down segregation and why in
1973 they still had to use National Guardmen to ESCORT Blacks to school? You call that having it "good"?

Let me point out:

Everytime you turn the ignition key to your car,
everytime you ride and elevator or escalator, think about steam-driven trains and ships,
used gas-light, get a blood transfusion for your operation,
or use anything rubber or petrolium based...

Thank a Black American.

The Black Americans have been the "work-horse" for America.
And you think they are just looking for a hand-out? It's time America paid up on it's promise, too bad it didn't do it when it said it would.

When America needed to put that "Super-Race" notion to bed,
they relied on whom?

When they needed protection in the air to drop it's bombs during WW II, which air-escort group they tried to say are "inferior" but NOT ONCE lost a bomber it escorted to enemy planes? (Which still STANDS.)
You really don't want me to start "point-fucking" right now, so don't get me started..
Yeah, WHO should be grateful for WHOM and WHAT, dudes...?

I'll be atcha with that proof you want..
Bet on it..

__________________
I'd hit that so hard whoever could pull me out would become King of England!

yatzr

hmm, okay buddha, i'll give it to you that blacks have contributed a lot in america, because they have (that certainly doesn't hurt my argument at all). They have invented a lot of usefull things that have made my life better. Let me flip it to you again....would they have invented them if slavery didn't happen? Would they have the knowledge, the education, the resources to do the great things they've done if slavery didn't happen? I'm not saying white people did a favor or anything, I'm simply pointing out (for the umpteenth time) that because of slavery many blacks have led much better lives than those still in africa.

you talk like we wish black people didn't exist or that we're ungrateful for anything they've done. I'm sorry to say this is not true. i'm sure you'd even be surprised to hear that i have black friends, or admire black teachers, or even find black women attractive. You say you are not a racist but you talk to us like we are.

1973 wasn't necessarily having it good (although i'd say a good percentage of blacks were in fact having it good)...I never said it was. I said today...as in the present....as in 2004. I see that you want to win this argument very badly, but i'm sorry, I honestly don't think you can convince me or anyone else that your life would be better off if slavery didn't happen and you lived in africa.
(I don't need to mention that you wouldn't even exist since some of your ancestors are native american)

as for this
that's true, but you fail to point out that your race has enslaved other africans. besides, I, along with all of my ancestors, never enslaved anybody period. Yet, because i'm white you seem to think i owe you something.

buddha, I really hate to say this, but you are contributing to the racism in america. I know you've never said "white man is the devil", but that is exactly what i get from half the stuff you've said in this thread. you say that blacks don't have it good in america. Well I know hundreds (probably even thousands, so yes i can say i speak for thousands) of black athletes that would say otherwise. Your attitude is why half of the racist people are racist. If you would just accept your life for what it is and stop being a victim nobody would have a problem. You say blacks have always gotten the short end of the stick in america...you must not know too much of irish history then. Go look that up and you'll see the definition of ALWAYS getting the short end of the stick. just for the record...i'm not irish, I just happen to know more than one culture's history. but of course it doesn't matter, you've been too worried about winning this whole debate to try to learn anything new.

__________________
Mechanical Engineers build weapons. Civil Engineers build targets.

BuDDaH

No, I am saying you cannot say Black people are having it better then they would than if they where still in Africa because Slavery altered the course of what Africa could have been...

So, how can YOU come up with an answer and say that? As much as you can come up and answer American are having it good because of slavery..?
To let you know, I am not the one coming off with the racial attitude, look at your and a few other people's replies. You talk like if you know and I know you don't. I can say that.

Just because I point of flaws in theories because when speak like you have more sense than a Black person in such situations and try to over-ride me and tell me I am wrong and try to get me to admit or conform to YOUR ideals, I have to say no to compromise.
Here you are, definitely a Black person, now you going to try to make me compromise my position and tell me what to say...

WRONG. You guys can point all you want, you really didn't expect someone to come and try to kick the wheel of your bangwagon off. I'll fight you every step of the way and bring more than enough facts into a conversation than you. I am not the one that has to prove anything, regardless of what you say, I'll bang it to you. You can assume all the good that Blacks and slaves "could" be having now, Slavery was wrong, and it altered the natural course of what Africa could have been. You act like these inventions and discoveries wouldn't have been done but since they were, be glad they had the chance to be done..
It's that very same attitude that get me all heated up, so I'd be the FIRST to point out: AMERICA has it so good that Blacks are here and because of SLAVERY. Debate that. I have EVEN MORE ammunition than the latter conversation.

The U.S. has paid the Germans and Japanese for their suffering and for the atrocities down to them, Blacks have been having shit done to them even before the formation of the States, it can be proven. We can even leave noted that as the "culture or practice" of the time, let's count from the time the Constitution recognizes Slaves as Black Americans and count form there. I'll even square up with you until the Civil War, where it became an executive order where the promise of the government to end slavery and reparations of "40 acre and a mule"?
Now you are trying to tell me when I hear,

" If they're still pissed off about it, I would be more than happy to give my tax dollars to let them go back to africa. But if they enjoy their lives here in america then they need to STFU!! My ancestors had rough times too beyatch."

"sounds like greedy people trying to get some easy money to me." "These fucking people need to get a life. I hate saying this, but let's just get them a one-way ticket to Rowanda. I'm sure their heritage will take them far there."
"This is just a group who wants to be rich for nothing. I'd like to see their intentions for the money should they be awarded it. "

" If they want to sue, ship them back to wherever their ancestors came from and tell them they don't deserve what their ancestors got for them."

COME AGAIN?!?!?

WHOSE ANCESTORS need to TELL WHOM'S ancestors?!?!?

WHOM'S Ancestors should be thankful for WHAT?!?!

Mine saw:
being chained, hunted, lynched, swindled, dealt like cattle, cheated in almost every step of they way, discriminated, segregated, denied, steroetyped, etc..

The list is too long, so I won't bore you...

Back the fuck up, you done said the WRONG thing..

IT'S "ON", now "beyotch"...

I ain't letting that shit go on, you want to know what a Black person is thinking: here you go. I'll tell you what one thinks.

Can't take the fire, shouldn't have started one...

So... you want to have a discussion about Blacks and slavery without inviting a Black person to speak his mind..
(Mice will play while the cats away, huh? Guess what? I'm a cat. Squeak now, bitch..)

Ain't happening.

(As I'll say this ala Phredgreen...)

Bring it .......

__________________
I'd hit that so hard whoever could pull me out would become King of England!

yatzr

once again buddha, you are talking to me like i'm a racist. you are making yourself out to be a victim which only hurts your argument more. did you even read my last post?

everything you just said is pointless and proves you don't even understand what I've said and what i'm still trying to say. All you do is spit out pointless facts that I already know (you're not the only person that knows african american history).

the fact that you are even going to argue this shows you're just desperate and refuse to admit that you were wrong. You say you know a lot about african history. I don't think you do...I think you know a lot about african american history (which you've shown countless times), but you don't seem to get the drift about africa.

Why would I debate that? It's absolutely true. I certainly think america is better because black people are here. It's better because of all the different people who are here.

when are you going to get the point that it's not about what happened to your ancestors because we already know what happened to your ancestors. It's about YOUR life and whether or not YOU deserve anything for the suffering your ancestors took. You have not suffered like your ancestors suffered. You have not faced the terrible things your ancestors faced. Your ancestors would thank God for the life you have now. Are you too blind to see that?

all i have to say to that is wow. never in my life would i have expected something like that from an administrator. i have lost all respect for you. i think you should lock this thread before you make yourself look worse.

__________________
Mechanical Engineers build weapons. Civil Engineers build targets.

phyzix525

I can just see you shaking your head and snapping your fingers. (sorry i guess thats racist huh?)

OFKU0

Slightly off topic, but regarding reparations by German companies, as reported in the National Post last month. (sorry no link)

5 billion dollars has been set forth for 6 million Jewish holocaust victim's families as well as for surviver's themselves.

150 million has been allocated for approximately 2 million non-Jewish holocaust victim's families as well as surviver's. Of that 150 million, approximately two thirds has been allocated to Jews in Russia leaving 50 million for non-Jews,mainly non-Jewish Poles.

Do I think that Blacks should receive reparation monies? Why not. If a second generation Jewish kid and his family has his or her life improved because of reparations, why not a descendant of the slave trade.

__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

BuDDaH

Please, don't play "never in my life .. from an administrator" line.
It's beneath me and I am speaking from one person's point of view. And about respect, you had about as much of someone having a cool drink in hell you'd get any quarter from me when you threw this out there..

Where is your idea of "respect", now?
And I guess you can talk tough but don't have it to follow through?

So, I guess you basically left yourself open for a rebuttal of the straight up kind. You sound a good game but all I hear is all you want is to make you point. I ignore your point for a higher cause.
Soon as you can say slavery was wrong knocks out your point you are trying to make because when there is a wrong, anything you do until you right the wrong is wrong.

Did you notice, I never said slavery reparations was right? I was showing that Black people have more of a right to sue that just make up bullshit causes.
Did you know that the government made a promise it DID NOT KEEP?
I just pointed out the other side of things you refused to see.
I pointed out why it is possible for such a suit to be processed. Who has heard of having a one-sided discussion before?

How can you have the same opinion after having a fact shoved in your face? And from a Black person? I mean, why bad-mouth them like you know whats better for them? Why try to prove your point when one is telling you "NO." straight to your face?

Next time, ask before you blast.

My ability to Administrate has nothing to do with this topic or thread. Remember that.

And anyone who says Blacks are better off here than in Africa needs a wake up because the fact slavery has depleted Africa over 20,000,000 people, you can't say because you don't know what Africa would have been to this day.

So I can say, slavery helped America grow to what it is today.
Example:

You can bet America's economy was helped by slavery by employing all those people to build those ships..
Next time you might want to back up your observations with a fact.
If not, expect to be slapped down..

__________________
I'd hit that so hard whoever could pull me out would become King of England!

yatzr

this is my last post in this thread, i'm not going to say anything about the original topic or buddha's last post because it doesn't matter anymore. I'm just going to apologize to anyone that thought this debate got out of hand. I wasn't asked to apologize or anything, i just felt that I helped create anger in the community and for that I'm sorry. I shouldn't have fueled the fire.

To buddha, I'm sorry I could never say what I wanted in a way you would accept and understand. I'm also sorry that you think I never had any respect for you.

I don't care what anyone thinks of the original topic or of my opinions anymore, I'm just ready to get this thread over with.

__________________
Mechanical Engineers build weapons. Civil Engineers build targets.

BuddyHawks

I'm replying to the original topic.
I'm not sure what my opinions is, I’m just going to give some thought

I personally never have owned slaves, but I have benefited from them having been used.
Gordon Marino said - - "Apologies are becoming all too easy to make today. But abuse is no argument against use."
Suppose, for example, that unbeknownst to me, a friend of mine robs a bank and makes off with $7 million. Clearly, I am neither responsible for the robbery nor am I in a position to apologize for it. However, if after telling me about the theft, my friend offers me a million dollars of the stolen loot, and I accept it, then I am no longer innocent of the robbery, despite the fact that I had nothing at all to do with the heist. It could be argued that white people have profited from our racist past, and this, relative to slavery, we are more like receivers of stolen goods than innocent bystanders who happen to bear a physical likeness to slave owners.

OR

Assume that when I accepted the gift of a million dollars, I had no reason to think that the money had been stolen. Years later I came to realize that the funds upon which I had built a comfortable and respectable life had been pilfered from the accounts of your great-grandparents. Would the fact that many years had gone by cover the crime to such a degree that I would not bear any responsibility to the descendants of my great-grandparents' victims who, thanks to my ancestors, now lead a distinctively unprivileged existence?

Individuals who benefit from a crime are mistaken in thinking that they have nothing to do with the crime. If responsibility does not extend from the robber to his childern, then the material benefits of his wrongdoing can be passed along with impunity to future generations.


something to think about.....

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Watch More TV

Nisses

yes, something indeed to ponder.

However, if a criminal is walking down the street, goes into your little shop, buys a newspaper and pays without a problem, are you considered a fellon as well?

Hardly
These companies provided a legitimate service... They effectively played taxi or insured the "taxis".

__________________
Moderation should be moderately moderated.