Shokan

Having been here a while, and read the charter a few times, I understand the concepts of what the TFP is supposed to be. I feel it is a great place to be a part of, and wouldn't lose it for the world. However, something has been bothering me for quite some time.

The lack of negative opinions and comments. I realize its a very fine line between constructive criticism and insults, but sometimes I feel the need to say something that might be considered negative. I don't for fear of banning. I'm really trying to think of a certain thread in order to explain what I mean, but the only thing I can think of would be something like the Creativity section. If I posted something in there which someone dislikes, I want to hear that. Otherwise I get a positively biased opinion. If someone posted something that was really stupid/ignorant/etc, I want to feel like I should be able to say something to that person in order to get that point across.

"If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it all at." We've all heard that, and personally I do not agree with it. If I did something stupid and didn't realize it, I'd want someone to say something to me.

I guess the question I'm trying to ask is, how can I know for sure if my actions/stories/ideas/art/etc are actually good, if all I hear is positive opinions? Isn't this a bad way to ask a group of people's opinions if all the negative ones are thrown away? How can I know for sure if all I hear is one side of the coin?

I hope I'm being clear with what I'm trying to say. I answer better to people's questions as opposed to writing my own opinion. So ask away if I'm being too vague.

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Legalize it.

Aletheia

On one of the forums I run, we have writing and artwork forums. The same thing happens. No one will give constructive feedback, even though the staff has constantly said that giving negitive but constructive feedback is okay. I don't think it has much to do with people being moderated for negitive feedback, but more to do with people not wanting to seem like the downer or a negitive person. If 3 people before someone give all smilies and "thats gold" comments, then it is doubtful that the next person in line will leave negitive feedback.

Just my observation on the matter.

shakran

creative people want (if they're serious about being good at what they create) to hear critical feedback more than they want to hear 20 variations of "i liked it."

"I'd have reworded paragraph 2 to be more clear" or "you need to rework this section to read more smoothly" are both fine, and are not negative comments.

"That's the biggest pile of stinking dog crap I've ever read" would be somewhat negative and might be frowned upon

Prince

I just try not to rub anyone the wrong way, because I know what'll happen if I do.

I'm just here to enjoy myself, grow up a little as a person, learn, share experiences and mind my own business.

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Who is John Galt?

phredgreen

it's an issue of constructive criticism over blatant flaming...

when a perosn takes the time to point out what they take issue with, give reasons why they don't like it, and perhaps offer suggestions as to what they think might be a better idea, it's constructive criticism, and most times that's acceptable and even encouraged.

when a person dosen't take the time and effort to do those things and instead just flings out a mindless comment about how muhc that person/place/thing/situation/idea sucks, they're being a dumbass and will be treated as such.


it's a matter of contribution... when you have a counterpoint to someone's point, be sure you're effectively communicating the who/what/where/when/ and why of it so that you're adding to an ongoing discussion, not just parroting in with a mindless jab.


as to your question about wanting replies of that nature, the best way is to candidly solicit them. let people know, "hey, i want to know exactly how you feel, and if you feel i left something out or didn't get my point across clearly, i want you know let me know exactly how." it's best to state it plain and clear that you want all opinions, however positive or negative they are... it is the responder's responsibility to word their response in a constructive way... you deserve that, given the fact that you are putting yoru work out on display for them to critique.

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My country is the world, and my religion is to do good.
- Thomas Paine

World's King

To continue with what Phred has said...

I know it's hard some times with some situations but there is a way to tell someone you don't agree with their opinion without being an asshole. It's taken me years to refine my communication skills and I'm still guilty of beng an ass some times. It's the rules of debate.

Don't edit yourself if you feel a certain way. The best way to get your point across is to just say it. You understand.

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heavy is the head that wears the crown

analog

If someone posts something just totally rude or ignorant, etc., that warrants being edited, we always PM the member with the reason we edited them, and how to avoid doing the same in the future. This way, you know how you've run afoul.

Constructive criticism and debate are ok- bashing something is not.

Lebell

I can only repeat what's been said.

Constructive Criticism == no problem!

Shitty, rude comments == adios!


I mean, how would you give constructive criticism to your best friend's mom if she really really wanted it?

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Reese

I personally don't focus on bad parts of art, or literature, and when it comes time to leave a comment, unless it's REALLY bad I can't think of anything negative to say about it. I just think it's your style and who am I to say it's wrong.

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“It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick” - Dave Barry

RenaissanceII

There is the time-honored tradition of disagreeing without being disagreeable. I have seen this at work in this wonderful forum.
Imagine it at work in life (easier said than done, i'm afraid)

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And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
Anais Nin


I Wish You Well.

wannabenakid247

I don't really understand the confusion about this. Its not that hard to work out the difference between constructive criticism and rude insults.

Surely its just common sense and manners.

Bill O'Rights

Unfortunately, for some, they are endowed with neither.

grumpyolddude

Shokan, have you read much of the politics forum? There isn't a lot of ass kissing foing on in there! The computer threads can get a bit disagreeable, too.

For the most part, tfpers aren't afraid to speak their minds and let you know when they think you are off base. The fact that we can do this without the animosity prevelant on other forums is what makes us special. (But you knew that already, I'd bet!)

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"Regret can be a harder pill to swallow than failure .With failure you at least know you gave it a chance..." David Howard

clavus

Se how he did that? He disgreed. He told you that you are wrong. But he did it in such a manner that he won't get banned.

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Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.

majik_6

As far as the creativity forums go, I think they're set in a "default mode" of positive opinions. For a better explanation, you can read ARTelevision's notice in the Artwork forum.

Basically, some people (such as myself) get their "serious" critiques other places, and come here to share their work in a positive atmosphere.

However, if you wish to have your work more heavily critiqued, it's not uncommon to say something to the effect of "critiques/suggestions welcome".

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it's all about self-indulgence

Arsenic7

It's kind of funny you bring this up. I actually go to several internet forums to post and I LIKE this one because it has a very professional and laid back feel as opposed to some of the others which have the opposite atmosphere. If you are really unhappy with the art driven forums here I can always recoment another where I am POSITIVE you will recieve the feedback you desire...good and bad.

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This is no sig.

Kaos

I'm betting the first guy to say that was a nudist.

But ya, I find myself hitting the back button instead of Submit Reply once in awhile (not often) for fear of reprocussions of being misinterpreted.

bigbad

I find that I censor myself more here than on other forums, both because the TFP has a more mellow atmosphere and I don't really want to be a rebel and the fact that I care more about this place than others and would hate to get banned :\ So sometimes when I'm reading a post I'll find something that I disagree with or that I just plain don't like but choose not to post, even though I believe that my feedback may help, persuade, or enlighten. I see quite a few banned people while perusing the forums, and when I check their posts to see what kind of stuff they had been saying often it's stuff that, while possibly controversial, is quite tame compared to other sites that I visit. I dunno, all that just leads me to not post anything on topics I really have a strong opinion on for fear of bannination, I think that's pretty well what you are saying right Shokan?

H12

Personally, if I don't like something that much, I don't post in it. Every now and then I will and try to be constructive, but I find myself trying overly hard and sounding apologetic in my opinion, and I don't like that.

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"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit."
--Aristotle

yakimushi

As an artist I understand the value of constructive criticism and have developed the thick skin only 4 years of art school can grow.

I too feel that the Creativity forum is being restricted by the "lets make everyone feel good" attitude.

While I wholeheartedly agree that outright flaming is both rude and unnesessary, criticism can be an excellent way to grow and overcome weaknesses and boundaries.

I will continue to post my true opinion and try to help people grow in their art. I hope you guys do the same for me!

Shokan

That's probaly it. Most people in the thread misunderstood what I typed. I guess I have a problem with communicating things without seeming too mean. I usually just say how it is, and people tend to think that's rude. I often hit the back button after what I typed out of fear of banning.

So thanks....

Hopefully this thread can die now.

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Legalize it.

SecretMethod70

Closed. Look here: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...threadid=46360

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