ARTelevision

Some issues raised in recent days gave rise to my journal entry:

Human Communities

It seems a fitting discussion for us.

I am a proponent of intelligent strategy and working to improve situations.

As you can see in my own work that's available on the Net - there is a counter-cultural procedure involved in what we do. I think of it this way. I do not act against culture - I create what I see as necessary. The fact there is opposition to my work in the culture at large is a tangential, not a central motivator for me.

My analysis of what I refer to as "mass-media mind control," for example, involves a study and explication - and not so much an attack.

Then, as for some of the general issues that are raised by my statements in the journal entry...

Here's the focus of my concern for the shibboleth known as "questioning authority." It is quite often done for the wrong reasons. The wrong reasons are egoistic and romantic notions of self-image and self-serving agendas. The hypocrisy involved in these sorts of rebellions are dangerously irresponsible.

I think the case of the French Revolution is a good one. Romanticism and its attendant egoisms very quickly became as cruel a cultural regime as the one overthrown.

I've always thought the play, "Marat/Sade," by Peter Weiss illuminated that landscape quite brilliantly.

In any event, let's explore these issues further - as they are being played out in our Forums, as well. You know, I tend to type in philosophical generalities - even when there are specific instances of things occurring.

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sipsake

But weren't the French people revolting against an aristocracy that was unresponsive to the plight of the lower class?

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Mantus

On assaulting corruption.

People who assault authority usually do not have a well thought out alternative in mind. The tearing down of authority leaves a power vacuum that is often filled by other corrupt opportunists.

The main problem is the fact that corruption of authority is usually a symptom of a flaw in the entire system and more often then not manifestation of natural human tendencies such as greed. By targeting and alleviating the symptom the assailant on authority usually accomplish nothing in the long run. Whatever new structure is put in place of the old authority will soon enough be corrupted.

Candide

Sipsake - the last thing I want to do is oversimplify the Revolution, but don't forget a whole lot of scholarship points to ergot poisioning (ergot is a psychoactive toxin) on improperly stored grain as a contributing factor to the beginning of the Revolution, especially the more violent uprisings.

I know this is a little off topic, please forgive my digression.

quadro2000

Thanks for bringing this up in the forum where we can discuss it a little easier than in the journals!

Hey, what happened to you dumbing it down for us laymen?

Shibboleth = n. A word or pronunciation that distinguishes people of one group or class from those of another.

In any case, what I'm saying - and I'm talking in respect to TFP - is that there may be people on here who have questioned authority for the wrong reasons. To be ballsy, or daring, or to stir trouble. But the issue that I have with your initial entry when you wrote:

is the fact that I thought it made the generalization that all people on TFP were doing it for that reason. Which I know is not the case.

Although I just looked at your journal again and see that the above statement has been changed to

And that you specified that you're not talking about TFP. You're talking about society. But that must have something to do with it since you said "Some issues raised in recent days gave rise to my journal entry." Unless you're talking about something else huge that I just missed...and this could be applied to TFP, couldn't it?

My original point being that I believe it is healthy and normal to question authority so long as you're doing it for the right reasons. I guess everybody has their own definition of the right reasons, but I define it as when you are questioning something because you have an honest interest or question, and that you are questioning it because you are looking out for the general welfare of the community, not because you want to be a troublemaker.

I noticed.

Thanks again for posting this here.

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Cynthetiq

I'm reading the changes that you made to the last paragraph of "quationing authority" I assume the change was made to make distinction away from TFP but to the rest of the communities out there.

even in free thinking societies, it's still important to have the radical thinkers. It's those people that are catalysts for change. Change takes time to brew, it takes time to rise. Those that question authority and do so with responsibility are those that we consider our greatest thinkers to our greatest artists. They changed it enough, not too much to be so radical, but enough.

Even in areas as structured as physics, it takes someone to ask the questions against the authority. Think about if Einstien held onto the same accepted thoughts as his peers. Newton, Edison, Galileo, Ptolomey... they all questioned authority and moved changes that fundamentally shifted the way humans and communities interact with each other.

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ARTelevision

Yes exactly. Often I really do want to focus on general issues rather than on specific instances. I think what this does is to desensitize the dialog a little and allow for people to come to their own conclusions after the general points have been made in this way.

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Cynthetiq

while it may do that sometimes, others it may cause analysis paralysis because there isn't enough ground to squarely create a foundation for discussion.

sometimes you have to get into the specifics, especially if you will instigate a thought process, there is a little bit of facillitating that still needs to happen. Facilitation without distortion or agenda, but to just facilitate the free thinking and direct the questioning of authority into something that is sublimated into a positive outcome.

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WhoaitsZ

i feel like shit so i'm not reading the whole thing atm but i'll point out an observation i've made in my short life...

people who question authority out of greed or ignorance get called down fast. if someone said "ok fuck tfp cuz boobs are gone" he would rightly be crucified; i'll hold the hammer.

but if someone who put work and/or money into this questioned authority for if he feels slited..... i say go for it,

this fucking chaos is because people would not speak.

don't you think if someone would had not ignored us that it wouldn't be so chaotic?

i'm sorry man. ya'll brought this on yourselves.

ARTelevision

Well, I believe, like all decent people - and I think everyone involved are decent folks - we all do the best we can...
People are recovering, working through things, there's some healing in evidence...

This thread wasn't intended to be specifically about all that - there are other places where it's being discussed.

In any event, the first two sentences of this post are my response.

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WhoaitsZ

well said.

just do me a favor..... use this. remember:

people can only be pushed so far.

I really believe you're doing the best you know how. i do. some lessons are harsh.

ARTelevision

absolutely...

thanks.

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Lebell

I think perhaps this point is forgotten far too often.

Most people are good and are doing the best they can.

Being human beings, that means that they will still fail and hurt other humans in the process.

Hence the sacred nature of forgiveness.

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Litespeed

If we do not question, dissect, and prove authority, how are we to trust them?

Tophat665

OK, my poor 2¢: To me, the point of questioning authority is twofold - 1) To keep those in authority thinking. Ideally everyone does things the best they can, but when they have to think about why they're doing them, maybe their best is better? A weak point, but a point nonetheless. 2) If one doesn't question authority, how then does one learn to be authoritative?

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filtherton

I think you should question everything, not just authority. I agree with many of the preceeding posters that authority is often questioned for the wrong reasons.

I think authority should be acknowledged, but when one is qualified to make one's own judgement pn how to proceed that that is all the authority one needs.

ARTelevision

Yes.
Upholding the ideal value of questioning authority is one thing. Using that as a justification for all instances of it is another. What most concerns me is when it is done for the wrog reasons:

"Here's the focus of my concern for the shibboleth known as "questioning authority." It is quite often done for the wrong reasons. The wrong reasons are egoistic and romantic notions of self-image and self-serving agendas. The hypocrisy involved in these sorts of rebellions are dangerously irresponsible."

What we have then is merely radical chic. That is a form of mental tyranny so common these days that it moves me to make the observations I've made regarding rebellous behavior as a neurosis rather than a virtue.

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WhoaitsZ

Sure thing Art. I could push buttons just enough so I could try to get special treatment. That would definatly be wrong.

But to accept blindly to keep from ever pushing a selfish agenda is simply nieve.

OFKU0

You label people who question authority as "merely radical chic." And then compromise the board by effectively calling those crazy, or as you put it, 'mental tyranny' and 'neurosis,' as per regarding the members here who dare to voice their opinions how ever adversary it is to those in control.

ARTelevision with due respect, if it weren't for you this forum would struggle to exist. But you've just convinced me that the Tilted Forum Project is in fact Stepford. To those who care, I'm sure that's a disappointment.

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ARTelevision

I believe I've made the point sufficiently here that my intentions in this thread are neither to directly focus the discussion on the specific current events at TFP nor to question the validity of questioning authority when it is done genuinely.

I stated I believe we could benefit from a general philosphical discussion of the topic - even for the purpose of "desensitizing" our reactions to current TFP events.

I also stated - sufficiently I believe - my beef is with those who question authority disingenuously.

Honsetly, OFKU0, I can't imagine you would defend rebels such rebels as those.

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