dimbulb

Reading this just makes me want to get a living will drawn up immediately. Personally, I do not consider being in a vegetative state "living". If I were ever in a position that I could not make decisions for myself, that I lose conscious thought, I would rather be left to die. Being able to 'recognise' light, is not living to me. Not being able to express my thoughts and my feelings to my loved ones.... thats not living to me.

I'm just glad that me and my SO share the same viewpoint regarding this, and for that matter, my parents share mostly the same viewpoint as well. Not to say that I won't do everything possible to save the lives of a loved one, but after all possible measures (which of course is a debatable issue... ) have been taken, there comes a time when the towel should be thrown in, especially if the brain is irreversibly damaged.

So what are your thoughts on this. What would you do if you were a parent? or a spouse? And what would you want your spouse to do?
what would you want Jeb Bush to do?

A separate point, but this is a good reason to recognise gay unions. The spouse should have the ultimate right to decide, especially in the case of medical emergencies and medical information. Just 'imagine' for a moment that you are in an emergency or a coma. Who would you want to decide your fate. Your parents? or your SO?



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http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/26/w...iew/26DEWA.html
October 26, 2003
It May Be a Family Matter, but Just Try to Define Family
By SHAILA K. DEWAN

he life of Terri Schiavo, however narrowly it has been lived in the 13 years since a heart attack left her severely brain-damaged at 26, is at its core a story of a family divided. Ms. Schiavo's husband believes she has no hope of recovery and chose to remove the feeding tube that keeps her alive. Her parents disagreed. Last week, the Florida Legislature gave Gov. Jeb Bush the power to intervene; he ordered the tube replaced.

While the courts have been the main battleground, the case is fundamentally one of emotional, rather than legal, combat. It concerns the lengths to which love will go, the families people choose versus those they are born into and the question of who has the more valid claim to someone's destiny. Society's fears and suspicions collect around the stereotypes in play: a disloyal husband, overprotective parents.

"The case has been mischaracterized as the case of a woman who is disabled being starved to death," said Dr. Daniel Sulmasy, a Franciscan friar, medical doctor and the chairman of the ethics committee at St. Vincent's Hospital in Manhattan. "But the real moral issue is these sort of thorny disagreements that occur in the settings of real families."

Dr. Sulmasy, who regularly consults with relatives making life-or-death decisions within complicated family relationships, said it is easy for an ethicist to forget that people drag the flotsam of the past behind them.

"Is what's going on here just a history of suspicion that these in-laws have had against their son-in-law from the beginning?" he asked. "Or did he rescue her from a family that was always smothering and they now feel that they have to continue to care for her the way they always have?"

Overwhelmingly, state laws and courts have granted the spouse the first right to make life-or-death decisions. Next come the children, and then the parents. In a system focused on nuclear families, this reflects the view that spouses are far better equipped to make proxy decisions because they share responsibilities and have known each other intimately in their adult lives, rather than in childhood.

Parents, on the other hand, must contend with generational asymmetry, the idea that caring flows down the family tree more strongly than it climbs up.

While children may nurse a permanent ambivalence toward their parents, said Janna Malamud Smith, a clinical social worker and the author of "A Potent Spell: Mother Love and the Power of Fear," parents want nothing more than to have their children outlive them.

"Whatever your gratitude and deep love for a parent who raised you, you don't have this ongoing mandate for this creature that `no matter what, I will protect you,' " Ms. Smith said.

In any case, the idea that the spouse knows best does not prove to be uniformly true. In a study that Dr. Sulmasy calls "the bioethics version of `The Newlywed Game,' " health care questions were posed to people and their proxies to compare their answers. Faced with situations like whether to turn off a ventilator or withdraw a feeding tube, they did not agree 20 percent of the time.

It did not make a difference whether the proxy was related by blood, Dr. Sulmasy said. The best results came when the person explicitly told the proxy what he or she would want beforehand.

Ms. Schiavo may or may not have done that; her husband, Michael, has said that she had expressed a desire not to be kept on life support.

But even if she had not, the Florida Legislature has stripped Mr. Schiavo of his right to make choices for his wife for the time being. The marital intimacy that is normally inviolable even by parents or children, not to mention politicians or those whose stated aim is to protect family values, has been breached.

"In a sense that movement rests on a sentimental version of family — that whether or not blood is thicker than water, blood is somehow better," Ms. Smith said.

It is difficult for estate lawyers to think of a time when so much effort has been put into overriding a spouse's prerogatives. "Maybe in this post-Laci Peterson world, people are more skeptical of spouses and their motives," said Herbert E. Nass, a probate lawyer and the author of "Wills of the Rich and Famous."

The very idea of pulling the plug conjures up a lurking fear, said Laura Kipnis, the author of "Against Love: A Polemic." "There's a sort of undercurrent of mistrust and suspicion underlying the state of marriage these days," she said, "the idea that a spouse may leave you or try to murder you or having a secret life with someone else."

Mr. Schiavo is now living with another woman; they have a child and are expecting another. Ms. Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, point out that Mr. Schiavo won a million-dollar malpractice judgment to pay for his wife's care, which he would inherit if she died. Mr. Schiavo's lawyer argues that it has been 10 years since that settlement. And with a wife in a "vegetative state" for 13 years, doesn't a husband — or anyone, for that matter — have the right to walk away?

The Schindlers accuse Mr. Schiavo of having abused their daughter, and even of possibly causing her injury; doctors say she suffered a heart attack caused by a potassium deficiency. The Schindlers say that their daughter had told them she wanted a divorce and that Mr. Schiavo has denied her medical treatment that might help her. And, they claim, their daughter smiles and responds to their presence.

In the end, what is missing is not so much consensus as any sense of trust that both parties — the chosen companion and the birth family — want what is best for Ms. Schiavo.

"The people who oughtn't to be involved are the barbers and bankers and real estate agents that make up the Legislature, and the governor of Florida," said Thomas Lynch, a funeral director and author of two books of essays on themes of life and death. "It should have been an intimate conversation, not a big conversation. It should have been an intimate decision, not a public decision."

The struggle over the feeding tube is so compelling because it is so easy to agonize with both the parents and the husband. And, for that matter, with Ms. Schiavo herself, at the mercy of people for whom there is no obvious right choice.

Reflecting on the case, Cathleen Schine, a novelist whose most recent book, "She Is Me," presents three generations of women from one family, offered her best answer: get a living will.

"Because otherwise," she said, "everybody's got their own version of you and what you would want."



Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company

mb99usa

My SO knows what my wishes are and she agrees with them. I would hope I could count on my family to abide by my wishes but know that is not the case. Looks like a living will is the way to go.

__________________
So, what's your point?

It's not an attitude, it's a way of life.

hucklebuck74

This case just proves that if you don't want people messing things up, you'd better put it in writing

__________________
First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire

TheBrit

Does putting it in writing even allow them to let you die though? I would trust my GP (my doctor) to make the decision. I think his decisions are quite good on the whole.

Psivage

If I can breath on my own let me live
If I'm brain-dead, let me die
If I can wake up and I would be retarded, for the love of God kill me.

spived2

I would want to be kept around long enough to be sure whether or not I will be able to recover, and if not, I would want the plug pulled. The last thing I want to be is a burden on my family and whoever else is paying the tab to keep me around.

__________________

"This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is it vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished, as the once vital voice of the verisimilitude now venerates what they once vilified. However, this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation, stands vivified, and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin vanguarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition. The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta, held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous. Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose vis-à-vis an introduction, and so it is my very good honor to meet you and you may call me V." - V

Blahman

I think it should be a living will if you have one, if not, your SO, if not, your parents. If not... you stay living until the courts shut you off.

dnd

its illegal to commit suicide or attempt suicide in england :s

__________________
"Never underestimate a dumb question"-- Brandon Boyd

SabrinaFair

Although I think it's rather cruel to take a woman's food and water away to let her starve or perish of thirst, I would never have wanted that feeding tube inserted in the first place. If I'm braindead, I don't want to be alive. If I can't eat or drink on my own...let me go.

I've worked in a law firm off and on for a couple of years, so I've seen enough to feel that it's important to have your wishes in writing. But even if you do have a living will, make sure your family knows your wishes.

__________________
"With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful. Strive to be happy."
-Desiderata

MSD

If I'm not waking up, fiv eme two weeks then let me go. I don't exactly like the idea of my soul being in solitary confinement when I could be having fun getting reincarnated because some legislators don't believe that they should let me go.

galaxygirl

Fotunately my SO and my family are all in agreement - none of us favor extreme measures or life support once there is no chance of recovery.

__________________
Drawing strength from His acceptance, offering all that I am and ever will be

tangledweb

A living will is the only thing that will get that plug pulled in many areas. Sometimes doctors will block the SO's decision to pull the plug for their own reasons. I am sure that they wouldn't keep someone alive just to inflate their own wallets.....yeah, right.

Doesn't Matter

Yourself.

If someone wants to die, they should be able to. Its their life

Jimbob666

I should have the right to decide who should die.

Reese

I think my SO should have the right to decide. Then Dad, then mom. I think my dad could make the decision much more fairly than my mom.

__________________
“It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick” - Dave Barry

aarchaon

The problem is when u become comatose u cant express your wish to die. All the religious arguments against this are IMO totally void of sense, after all if there is a creator being watching over us they wouldnt want us to suffer needlessly if we are going to paradise after death.

__________________
Green. Yellow. Blue.

lurkette

Living will
Living will
Living will
and let me say again,
living will

While you're at it, give someone you trust medical and legal power of attorney if you're ever incapacitated. While my brother was in a coma we had a hell of a time doing anything - paying his bills, getting his belongings from hospital security, dealing with any of his financial matters; and although the hospital needed to get our consent signatures for any medical procedures for liability reasons, technically the doctors were completely in charge of his medical care. Scary.

Someone on Slate.com made the point that the spouse, if there is one, is usually given preference over parents and other family members because you actually CHOSE your spouse and that implies a level of trust and intimacy that may not be there with family members to whom you just happen to be related. Nobody ever expects this kind of thing to happen, but the best thing you could do for yourself and your family to spare the kind of crap the Schiavos and Schindlers are having to go through is make it legal and official.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Crazy/Beautiful

Man I'm not even brain dead or anything, and I want to be dead

hobo

I don't want to be a vegetable. I'd rather die. If I couldn't make the decision, I guess the spouse should be given the power.

bundy

i agree. though in my case i´d give the power to my parents and my brother.
this would be a devastating decision for them to make... but i´d rather die than be an emotional and financial burden on them as a vegetable.

__________________
Ohayo!!!

Orodinn

ill just say noone for now. Ill explain later. Im kinda tired for now. Going to sleep.

wubbawubba

I should be the one who decides... for everyone

analog

It's obvious the parents are holding out for themselves... no one is vegetative for 13 years and still recognizes or smiles or any shit like that.

It's a fact that the MOST psychologically devastating death is a spouse- not your parents, not your kids- no one else. A spouse who was truly loved is the hardest burden to bear... and this poor man has been dealing with it for 13 years now.

You look down at the man or woman you love... and they can show no love in return... and you know it's there... but they can't say it... they can't show it... they just lie there as you cry over them. I know for me personally... the way I am about death and those i've loved... if one day my then-spouse died... it will send me into a mental hell. It will be insanely difficult to bring me back, and i'm not sure i'd want to come back. I'd be the old guy in the psych hospital who just sits and stares at the wall, never speaking, the look of ultimate pain and loss permenently plastered on my face.

If you love someone, love them enough to help them help you. Get living wills.

Eldaire

Hrm... Dunno.

Dilbert1234567

im gona get a living will soon, just in case, i dont want to be plugged in for more then a few months unless i am making progress. if there is hope go for it, but i dont want to be taking up space in some woard. if it is my time let me die please.

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