are we any safer post 9/11? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

ziadel · 10-22-2003, 04:21 PM

Quote:

BALTIMORE, Maryland (AP) -- College student Nathaniel Heatwole wanted to shine a spotlight on aviation security by putting banned items aboard planes, authorities say. Now, they are putting him under the spotlight.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/10/20/pl....ap/index.html

I have only take one trip in my life that required a plane, I flew from newyork to sanfrancisco... it was post 9/11...
once I got pulled out of line for the random check..

basically heres what I found then.

They didnt search my boots thoroughly enough, I could have hidden any number of smallish blades under my insoles, inbetwen the layers of leather in the uppers, etc...
They also never asked me to remove my belt... I could have hidden any number of contraband in that too or just used the belt itself as a weapon, they never even looked at it twice..
for some reason tho, toenail clippers and wine openers get confiscated, when only two days before the 9/11 attack they let me through the security check at an INTERNATIONAL flight with a 3 inch blade on my keys (I was dropping a buddy off at the airport for his flight back to the UK)

anywho, is anyone thinking they are trying to give the illusion of safety rather than the real thing because they know they can't really make anyone any safer? :shrug

Nefir · 10-22-2003, 04:32 PM

I really respect what this guy did. If the gov't has some smart people making the decisions, he will get hired as a consultant.

Its gonna take lesson after painful lesson to drive it into the thick skulls of the NTSB that purely "ceremonial" security procedures (ie: half-heartedly searching blind elderly people and retarded children in the airports) are doing NOTHING. Too bad that many lives are lost each time a lesson is not learned, when its administered by terrorists instead of disgruntled college students. Its time to stop being dumb about it, and look at how Israel handles this problem - after all, they have way more experience dealing with terrorism than us.

Atomsk · 10-22-2003, 05:00 PM

we wernt safe before and we arn't really safe now. the government just wants you to THINK we are so we can go about making the economy better. we can't buy all the stuff we want at wallmart if we're hiding in our houses can we? LOL

ARTelevision · 10-23-2003, 04:05 AM

That's an interesting incident.

The entire book entitled: "After : The Rebuilding and Defending of America in the September 12 Era," by Steven Brill, is a thorough documenatation of thousands of incidents and events demonstrating the many ways we are more safe and protected by dint of the good and conscientious efforts of millions of people who are doing their best to ensure the safety and security of our daily lives in the new age of terror.

Liquor Dealer · 10-23-2003, 04:54 AM

We are probably much safer now than we were before - not just because of government actions but because we have received a wakeup call. We now know that we have never actually been safe. We are, and probably always have been the most vulnerable people on Earth simply because of our attitude that that things like that don't happen here - they are things that happen somewhere else. We once believed that distance protected us - we now know that we were lying to ourselves. I think, that regardless of safeguards that have been put in place, we are now more safe than before simply because we are now aware of our vulnerability.

lurkette · 10-23-2003, 05:08 AM

I think we are much more vigilant now. Even if someone did manage to smuggle blades of some sort onto a plane, what do you think are the odds that a planeload of passengers is going to sit quietly while they hijack it just because they have some boxcutters? You're probably safer on a plane than in many large cities. I'm more concerned about other kinds of attacks that are still pretty unlikely - dirty bombs, surface-to-air missiles, biological attacks. I think we're still targets, but a lot of the wind has been taken out of al qaeda's sails. IMHO they shot their wad with the 9/11 attacks, and anything they do in the future will be much smaller scale, unless we get complacent and relax our guard.

mb99usa · 10-23-2003, 05:10 AM

Why do we think we are safer? Because we now have less freedom and have to subject ourselves to random "security" checks?

Nothing has changed. I also find the term "new age of terror" amusing. The only thing new is that terrorism has extended to America.

I just hope we start getting soem sensible leaders who see that the only way for us to be truly safe is to stop butting in where America does not need to.

kurty[B] · 10-23-2003, 06:22 AM

If one sets their mind to something, and death is not considered a handicap in completing that goal they will figure out a way to accomplish their means. I do believe we are more aware of possible threats, but in no means do I believe we are completely safe. Does that mean I'm going to dig myself a bunker, and hide out... No... Life happens, and so does shit. Make the best of it while we still got it.

World's King · 10-23-2003, 06:23 AM

Not much has changed.

Moreland · 10-23-2003, 06:38 AM

I think the things that have changed have been done for the wow factor and face, no serious changes to the way in particular airline security is handed have been affective by any means.

wwcd101 · 10-23-2003, 06:39 AM

It's a lot less likely that a small group of middle eastern terrorists are going to be able to hijack a commercial airliner and fly it into a building. The pilot has a gun. The door to the cockpit is bullet proof and locked. The passengers would now figure they were dead and jump the hijackers.

Even the hijackers position would be different. They would know that their mission was a suicide effort. This was not the case on 9/11. Would they all have participated if they knew... not likely.

We need to better define safe?

It's not so much about barricades and lines and background checks. It's more about how we feel. Which I think is based on primarily what the parameters of normal are?

There are a lot of things to be scared about. Cars don't bother us. I think we could normalize terrorist acts pretty easily. I'd much rather, however, take to the offensive and work to minimize the number of potential terrorists.

Thanks for listening.

Midnight_Son · 10-23-2003, 06:41 AM

Safer on planes? Maybe……..safer at home? Doubtful…..it’s not the terrorists than worry me either, has anyone really read the patriot act?
Here’s a quote for you to ponder: “There ought to be limits to freedom.” - G.W. Bush

mb99usa · 10-23-2003, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cnor
Safer on planes? Maybe……..safer at home? Doubtful…..it’s not the terrorists than worry me either, has anyone really read the patriot act?
Here’s a quote for you to ponder: “There ought to be limits to freedom.” - G.W. Bush

That is exactly the type of statements I was talking about when I said we need sensible leaders. He probably does not even recognize the duplicity in that statement.

How can we follow a leader who does not understand the concept of freedom?

Midnight_Son · 10-23-2003, 06:54 AM

Thank you! I was kind of expecting getting lashed at for writing that.

Craven Morehead · 10-23-2003, 07:06 AM

Having flown immediately after flights were resumed following 9-11, I was very disappointed at what I thought was lack of security. Since then, Ihave seen it become more vigilant but also not as intrusive as I htought it might become. There are several measures that have been implemented that have nothing to do with carrying weapons onto a plane. Matching luggage checked at the ticket counter with passangers actually boarding the flight is one example. Running luggage through bomb detection equipment. I've been pulled out of line a few times for the big search. Each time I thought is was quite thorough. Wands used to insure no metal was on my body, belts checked, etc. Have actually seen a nun get pulled out and all of her carry on checked. I'll gladly give up a few moments of my time on each flight to reduce the chance of another 9-11. Gladly.

Of course, we are at a disadvantage, we have implemented procedures to protect us from what sane individuals have determined to be threats. Problem is that terrorists do not act rationaly, who would have ever thought a commercial airplane would ever be used as a terrorists weapon? Its a bit like trying to stay one step ahead of hackers in the PC world. All that can really be done is to react as quick as possible to minimize future occurances.

mb99usa · 10-23-2003, 07:12 AM

Craven hit right on to what the problem really is. We react to an event that has already occurred and the next attacker adapts to our reaction. This is a vicious loop that is self-perpetuating.

What needs to be looked at is what is causing the attacks in the first place and to minimize the the catalyst. I do not mean at an individual level but on a policy and interaction level.

ARTelevision · 10-23-2003, 07:34 AM

I find it fascinating that many people can simply ignore the fact that I have given you a source which documents the many ways in which we are being better protected - and those same people feel confident in simply typing out a biased and unsupported opinion based on nothing but their own unquestioned belief systems.

I'm not going to pursue this - it takes a month to read the book I just referenced - so I don't suppose anyone will be in a position to debate the documentation it contains.

This thread is like so many in Politics. I guess unsupported off-the-top-of-your-head opinions are thought to carry some weight simply because they are typed into an input field on the Internet.

Midlandmadman · 10-23-2003, 09:06 AM

I live near Detroit..... On the news and in the paper everyday there is atleast one story about someone being killed, kidnapped or raped. I am sure in every major city in the US is about the same. I think we americans do a way better job of killing ourselves than any terrorist can.

as for the thread topic.... are we safer??? If you are a doom and gloomer we aren't . If your an optomist we are. If your a realist you know it dosen't matter one way or the other.

Psivage · 10-23-2003, 09:57 AM

Terrorist are like car thefts if they want steal your car they will. Right now I'm more afraid the our government then I'm of terrorists. To think an American citizen can be hold with charges being files against him or her indefinitely, just scares the shit out me. The government can do just about anything they want and said it is for the safety of this country. There was this case I read, where a drug dealer was charges under the terrorist act for having a meth lab. The prosecutor when asked if that was right, he replied something like just using the tools the government gave us. I have no love for a drug dealer, but to be charge with being a terrorist is a bit of overkill.

lurkette · 10-23-2003, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ARTelevision
...and those same people feel confident in simply typing out a biased and unsupported opinion based on nothing but their own unquestioned belief systems.

And this surprises you?

Craven Morehead · 10-23-2003, 07:50 PM

Maybe we are much safer. Good story about how the passengers helped subdue a nutcase on a jet.

passengers take control

Of course, they didn't know he was a nut while it was going on I'll bet. Probably scared the crap out of all on the flight.

splck · 10-23-2003, 10:13 PM

Maybe safer in the short term, but overall I think we haven't seen the end or the worst.

gwr_gwir · 10-23-2003, 10:22 PM

safer? possibly. however, even if you stop people from taking blades on an airplane, you can't stop them from taking (wallet) chains, a cane, or the easiest weapon of all to conceal - their hands and feet - on the plane. though if the government actually was serious about cracking down on the drug dealers and criminals (think Boondock Saints), then I'd feel a helluva lot safer.

10-22-2003, 04:32 PM	#2 (permalink)
Nefir Junkie Location: Louisville, KY	I really respect what this guy did. If the gov't has some smart people making the decisions, he will get hired as a consultant. Its gonna take lesson after painful lesson to drive it into the thick skulls of the NTSB that purely "ceremonial" security procedures (ie: half-heartedly searching blind elderly people and retarded children in the airports) are doing NOTHING. Too bad that many lives are lost each time a lesson is not learned, when its administered by terrorists instead of disgruntled college students. Its time to stop being dumb about it, and look at how Israel handles this problem - after all, they have way more experience dealing with terrorism than us. __________________ You do not use a Macintosh, instead you use a Tandy Kompressor break your glowstick, Kompressor eat your candy Kompressor open jaws, Kompressor release ants Kompressor watch you scream, Because Kompressor does not dance

10-23-2003, 04:05 AM	#4 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	That's an interesting incident. The entire book entitled: "After : The Rebuilding and Defending of America in the September 12 Era," by Steven Brill, is a thorough documenatation of thousands of incidents and events demonstrating the many ways we are more safe and protected by dint of the good and conscientious efforts of millions of people who are doing their best to ensure the safety and security of our daily lives in the new age of terror. __________________ create evolution

10-23-2003, 04:54 AM	#5 (permalink)
Liquor Dealer Super Agitator Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A	We are probably much safer now than we were before - not just because of government actions but because we have received a wakeup call. We now know that we have never actually been safe. We are, and probably always have been the most vulnerable people on Earth simply because of our attitude that that things like that don't happen here - they are things that happen somewhere else. We once believed that distance protected us - we now know that we were lying to ourselves. I think, that regardless of safeguards that have been put in place, we are now more safe than before simply because we are now aware of our vulnerability. __________________ Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

10-23-2003, 05:08 AM	#6 (permalink)
lurkette My future is coming on Moderator Emeritus Location: east of the sun and west of the moon	I think we are much more vigilant now. Even if someone did manage to smuggle blades of some sort onto a plane, what do you think are the odds that a planeload of passengers is going to sit quietly while they hijack it just because they have some boxcutters? You're probably safer on a plane than in many large cities. I'm more concerned about other kinds of attacks that are still pretty unlikely - dirty bombs, surface-to-air missiles, biological attacks. I think we're still targets, but a lot of the wind has been taken out of al qaeda's sails. IMHO they shot their wad with the 9/11 attacks, and anything they do in the future will be much smaller scale, unless we get complacent and relax our guard. __________________ "If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France

10-23-2003, 05:10 AM	#7 (permalink)
mb99usa Keep on rolling. It only hurts for a little while. Location: wherever I am	Why do we think we are safer? Because we now have less freedom and have to subject ourselves to random "security" checks? Nothing has changed. I also find the term "new age of terror" amusing. The only thing new is that terrorism has extended to America. I just hope we start getting soem sensible leaders who see that the only way for us to be truly safe is to stop butting in where America does not need to. __________________ So, what's your point? It's not an attitude, it's a way of life.

10-22-2003, 05:00 PM	#3 (permalink)
Atomsk Crazy	we wernt safe before and we arn't really safe now. the government just wants you to THINK we are so we can go about making the economy better. we can't buy all the stuff we want at wallmart if we're hiding in our houses can we? LOL

10-23-2003, 06:22 AM	#8 (permalink)
kurty[B] Sauce Puppet	If one sets their mind to something, and death is not considered a handicap in completing that goal they will figure out a way to accomplish their means. I do believe we are more aware of possible threats, but in no means do I believe we are completely safe. Does that mean I'm going to dig myself a bunker, and hide out... No... Life happens, and so does shit. Make the best of it while we still got it.

10-23-2003, 06:23 AM	#9 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	Not much has changed. __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

10-23-2003, 06:38 AM	#10 (permalink)
Moreland Tilted Location: United Kingdom	I think the things that have changed have been done for the wow factor and face, no serious changes to the way in particular airline security is handed have been affective by any means.

10-23-2003, 06:39 AM	#11 (permalink)
wwcd101 Insane	It's a lot less likely that a small group of middle eastern terrorists are going to be able to hijack a commercial airliner and fly it into a building. The pilot has a gun. The door to the cockpit is bullet proof and locked. The passengers would now figure they were dead and jump the hijackers. Even the hijackers position would be different. They would know that their mission was a suicide effort. This was not the case on 9/11. Would they all have participated if they knew... not likely. We need to better define safe? It's not so much about barricades and lines and background checks. It's more about how we feel. Which I think is based on primarily what the parameters of normal are? There are a lot of things to be scared about. Cars don't bother us. I think we could normalize terrorist acts pretty easily. I'd much rather, however, take to the offensive and work to minimize the number of potential terrorists. Thanks for listening.

10-23-2003, 06:41 AM	#12 (permalink)
Midnight_Son The Cover Doesn't Match The Book Location: in a van down by the river	Safer on planes? Maybe……..safer at home? Doubtful…..it’s not the terrorists than worry me either, has anyone really read the patriot act? Here’s a quote for you to ponder: “There ought to be limits to freedom.” - G.W. Bush __________________ SWM, tattooed, seeks meaningful tits and beer. Enjoys biker mags, pornography, and Sunday morning walks to the liquor store. Winners of erotic hot dog eating contests given priority.

10-23-2003, 06:54 AM	#14 (permalink)
Midnight_Son The Cover Doesn't Match The Book Location: in a van down by the river	Thank you! I was kind of expecting getting lashed at for writing that. __________________ SWM, tattooed, seeks meaningful tits and beer. Enjoys biker mags, pornography, and Sunday morning walks to the liquor store. Winners of erotic hot dog eating contests given priority.

10-23-2003, 07:06 AM	#15 (permalink)
Craven Morehead Custom User Title	Having flown immediately after flights were resumed following 9-11, I was very disappointed at what I thought was lack of security. Since then, Ihave seen it become more vigilant but also not as intrusive as I htought it might become. There are several measures that have been implemented that have nothing to do with carrying weapons onto a plane. Matching luggage checked at the ticket counter with passangers actually boarding the flight is one example. Running luggage through bomb detection equipment. I've been pulled out of line a few times for the big search. Each time I thought is was quite thorough. Wands used to insure no metal was on my body, belts checked, etc. Have actually seen a nun get pulled out and all of her carry on checked. I'll gladly give up a few moments of my time on each flight to reduce the chance of another 9-11. Gladly. Of course, we are at a disadvantage, we have implemented procedures to protect us from what sane individuals have determined to be threats. Problem is that terrorists do not act rationaly, who would have ever thought a commercial airplane would ever be used as a terrorists weapon? Its a bit like trying to stay one step ahead of hackers in the PC world. All that can really be done is to react as quick as possible to minimize future occurances.

10-23-2003, 07:12 AM	#16 (permalink)
mb99usa Keep on rolling. It only hurts for a little while. Location: wherever I am	Craven hit right on to what the problem really is. We react to an event that has already occurred and the next attacker adapts to our reaction. This is a vicious loop that is self-perpetuating. What needs to be looked at is what is causing the attacks in the first place and to minimize the the catalyst. I do not mean at an individual level but on a policy and interaction level. __________________ So, what's your point? It's not an attitude, it's a way of life.

10-23-2003, 07:34 AM	#17 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	I find it fascinating that many people can simply ignore the fact that I have given you a source which documents the many ways in which we are being better protected - and those same people feel confident in simply typing out a biased and unsupported opinion based on nothing but their own unquestioned belief systems. I'm not going to pursue this - it takes a month to read the book I just referenced - so I don't suppose anyone will be in a position to debate the documentation it contains. This thread is like so many in Politics. I guess unsupported off-the-top-of-your-head opinions are thought to carry some weight simply because they are typed into an input field on the Internet. __________________ create evolution

10-23-2003, 09:06 AM	#18 (permalink)
Midlandmadman Redwing fan extraordinaire Location: Michigan	I live near Detroit..... On the news and in the paper everyday there is atleast one story about someone being killed, kidnapped or raped. I am sure in every major city in the US is about the same. I think we americans do a way better job of killing ourselves than any terrorist can. as for the thread topic.... are we safer??? If you are a doom and gloomer we aren't . If your an optomist we are. If your a realist you know it dosen't matter one way or the other. __________________ Its good to be back.

10-23-2003, 09:57 AM	#19 (permalink)
Psivage Psycho	Terrorist are like car thefts if they want steal your car they will. Right now I'm more afraid the our government then I'm of terrorists. To think an American citizen can be hold with charges being files against him or her indefinitely, just scares the shit out me. The government can do just about anything they want and said it is for the safety of this country. There was this case I read, where a drug dealer was charges under the terrorist act for having a meth lab. The prosecutor when asked if that was right, he replied something like just using the tools the government gave us. I have no love for a drug dealer, but to be charge with being a terrorist is a bit of overkill.

10-23-2003, 07:50 PM	#21 (permalink)
Craven Morehead Custom User Title	Maybe we are much safer. Good story about how the passengers helped subdue a nutcase on a jet. passengers take control Of course, they didn't know he was a nut while it was going on I'll bet. Probably scared the crap out of all on the flight.

10-23-2003, 10:13 PM	#22 (permalink)
splck it's jam Location: Lowerainland BC	Maybe safer in the short term, but overall I think we haven't seen the end or the worst. __________________ nice line eh?

10-23-2003, 10:22 PM	#23 (permalink)
gwr_gwir Crazy	safer? possibly. however, even if you stop people from taking blades on an airplane, you can't stop them from taking (wallet) chains, a cane, or the easiest weapon of all to conceal - their hands and feet - on the plane. though if the government actually was serious about cracking down on the drug dealers and criminals (think Boondock Saints), then I'd feel a helluva lot safer. __________________ Being intelligent is not a felony. But most societies evaluate it as at least a misdemeanor. -- Robert Heinlein