dlish

im curious what TFPers think of Non english speakers speaking in their mother tongue in public in a western country.

Do 'westerners' find it rude/insulting/racist if someone was speaking to someone else in their own language?

if you are insulted, why would you be insulted?

I know that many western countries are now in the process of implementing or have implemented citizenship tests for migrants. i think that's a great thing. if you want to migrate to another country and exploit its generosity without giving back, then you need not apply.

However, what if someone did pass all the labguage tests, the history and culture tests, and has all the relevant qualifications as well as a job. If this particular person was speaking in public in their own language, i dare say some people would find it insulting, despite the fact that this person has a right to be in the country as much as the next person. some people would even go as far as confronting the person and asking them to speak in english or 'go back to your own country'. ive heard this term many a times in australia, especially as a kid when the arabic community wasnt especially big in Sydney 30 years ago. We were called 'wogs' and 'dago's' for looking different, even though my mother was fluent in 3 languages, and my father 5.

i know that members of my family including my wife have been abused for not looking the part during major world events like 911. The truth be told, she speaks better english and arabic than i do. she speaks on talkback radio giving free nutritional advice to the arabic community at large in her own time, but an undercurrent of racisms still exists in many parts of the west and it rears its ugly head whenever the next big news story pops on the front page.

'We' as first and generation australians are expected to fit the australian mould, which most have done successfully for the most part. I then look at expat westerners who live in the middle east who have come to reap the rewards of an expat life, but do nothing to learn the language, learn its culture, history or understand its people. i see a disparity between these two cultures. Here in Dubai, almost everything is in english. every sign board accomodates to the westerner, every government official is bilingual if not trilingual, every shop conducts its business in english. Its a part of life, and no one finds it offensive when someone speaks another language. This is truely a cosmopolitan city where the lines of culture is blurred. where indians, arabs, africans, westerners, asians, and euorpean kids all learn about each other in the same classroom.

i compare this with the curriculum when i went to school where all the multicultural kids would be grouped in one class to attend 'special english classes' even though i was the best speller in my class. i never understood why they'd ask me to go learn english with a bunch of other migrant kids who also spoke perfect english. ironically, we would spend an hour playing musical instruments instead of learning english.

now that i am thinking about heading back home after a good stint in the middle east ( yes australia is home) i am having second thoughts about going back. Will my kids be treated the same way that i was treated when i was a kid? will they be considered outcasts because they're not westerners? will they be singled out because of their names? This is also taking into mind that i will be teaching my kids arabic at every opportunity outside of the school curriculum, as well as speaking to them in public in arabic and other places.

I guess what i fear the most is having someone confront me for being less australian than they are, when i consider myself australian wherever i live.

are people really racist deep down? or is it the fear of the unknown?

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- Filthy

Ourcrazymodern?

What's a westerner? Language is a tower of babble. It falls apart when we use it to divide us. If I found myself elsewhere, I'd at least try to learn the locally common tongue. Those who joke around without considering their audience's understanding do offend me.

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dlish

thats why i used 'westerner' instead of westerner. by 'westerner' i meant anglo saxon in particular. Used as a general term for australians/brits/amercians etc.

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An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Strange Famous

where I used to live (Ipswich) there was quite a big Polish community

I dont in any way have an issue with two Poles speaking Polish to each other (in public or private), but I think it is problematic if you want to move to a new country and you dont make an effort to learn the language.

_

I pretty seriously considered taking a job in Germany last year, and I certainly would have made every effort to learn German ASAP if I had have moved.

_

EDIT, I will tell you something that DOES offend me. And thats white people in Texas and Arizone etc railing against the govt allowing people to transact in Spanish as it is a "foriegn" language. Have you ever heard of the Conquistodors, you pricks? The Spanish were conquering this place and slaughtering the Indians a long time before the fucking English!!!

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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

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Baraka_Guru

I live in one of the most multicultural cities in the world. If you go out in public, you are all but guaranteed to hear something other than English. It's more a question of how many different languages you're going to hear.


Demographics of Toronto - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That said, it's common for native speakers to talk amongst themselves in their native tongues. However, you will find that it's because they are all speaking the language. I think etiquette comes into play when you have those within a social group who aren't speakers and can't understand the conversation. I can't recall being in a situation where I found people being rude in this respect.

I think there is a general respect for languages here and that people know that English is the "common tongue."

Socially, language is largely accommodated here. You will find certain neighbourhoods with bilingualism that goes beyond the expected French/English in Quebec. In Chinatown, you have national banks with Cantonese in the signage. In Koreatown, you have Korean signage; in Greektown, Greek signage, etc. The same goes for street signage, etc.

Officially, Canada has two national languages, but the governments, businesses, etc., will accommodate communities they serve.

But it's not all rainbows and robins here. You will get racist mindsets and remarks: "This is Canada. Speak English!" I think that's unavoidable and unforch. The good thing, however, is that the Toronto community at large is vibrant and accepting of culture, language, etc.

There are no guarantees outside of the city. (I'm looking at you rural Canada.)

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MeltedMetalGlob

My old lady's Chinese, and so are all her friends, so whenever they all get together it's a cacaphony of Mandarin babble... and my understanding of the language doesn't go beyond counting to 3 and the word "gui-zi" which means "foreign devil" (similar to gweilo or gajin in other Asian countries- so I know when they're talking about me.)

It doesn't bother me, and that applies to all other circumstances I encounter as well- if they want to speak their native tongue, go ahead. My only stipulation would be that they should be as patient as me if we need to communicate and their grasp of English is shaky.

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snowy

I love hearing people speak a language besides English in public. I love playing a guessing game of what language they're speaking. I have spent a considerable amount of time on a university campus with a healthy international student population. It's really not uncommon to hear people speaking a foreign language at various places around my town, and it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

One thing that may color my own opinion, though: I am a first-generation American, and I grew up listening to my opa and oma speak Dutch to each other and occasionally to my father.

I have heard people make remarks, certainly, but one thing that I think is important to remember is that those remarks are often made in ignorance. The war over ignorance everywhere will never be won if those fighting it call retreat and move back to places where they are more comfortable. Further, during the fight they might find that they have greater support in their wider community than they first thought. I am pretty sure the mosque in my town did not know how much they were valued as a community resource until my town rallied around them after the firebombing. The pity here is that it took a firebombing to bring that to light.

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Strange Famous

The other thing that is rude is in a group speaking a language that one party cannot understand.

I remember once going out with some beers with an a German and French guy, and the Frech guy (who has an Irish mum and speaks good English) kept starting conversations in German and the German guy kept telling him off and saying to speak English.

I can speak some German, but not enough to keep up with a conversation after 8 beers...

I think English speakers are spoiled, as at least throughout Europe it is considered the main "business" language

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

bagatelle

Finland has not a long history of obtaining masses of immigrants. In recent decades more refugees have been accepted to the country, it's not been seen as a good thing only, because they come here unemployed and since they don't know the culture or the language, they need time to adapt. Our own citizens are often being worse taken care of than the refugees, being unemployed and depending on social welfare.

In addition to this I live in Finnish-Swedish speaking area, where in some extent already occurs problems, because of this language division. Depending on the new location for immigrants, their first new language in the country may be Swedish, and it is easier to learn than Finnish, but it's only spoken in quite narrow area.

I understand 5 languages, but none of the languages the common refugees speak as their native language. I have to admit that I find foreign nationalities a bit intimidating in larger groups, when they speak their own language, also sometimes because they look different. It is a primitive reaction.

The best way to integrate to a community like ours, is to learn our language, imo. We are only about 5 million people in the world speaking this language and when a foreigner speaks understandable Finnish, I can trust them knowing our culture well enough to think of them as "one of us".

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Charlatan

People who have an issue with immigration don't understand long term growth.

Originally coming from Toronto, my experience is the same as Baraka's. I lived in a racially diverse city. Interestingly, when I grew up in the suburbs, it was not quite as diverse. In one of the schools I attended, a recent immigrant, a black kid, from Jamaica was exotic (this was in the 70s in an old suburb). The demographics have shifted a lot since the 70s.

The area I lived in for High School was even more diverse. Our school had people from all over the world. Many of these students were first generation but some had arrived as young kids. The interesting thing, for me, was many of my friend's parents had trouble speaking English (or spoke with thick accents). Their kids, almost Universally, spoke English with no accent (other than the Canadian one). They were integrated.

People who rail against immigration are short term thinkers. They see people who don't speak English and rail. What they need to focus on is their kids (and grandkids).

Economic growth comes from the growth of your population. As indigenous population's birth rates continue to stagnate or drop, growth can only come from immigrants.

Interestingly, I moved from Toronto to Singapore. Singapore is like Toronto, quite racially diverse. It is a nation of immigrants. Even the population that was here to begin with is from elsewhere, if you go back far enough (ie China, India, other parts of the Malayan Peninsula). They are going through much of the same immigration issues here as well. Griping about people who don't speak English. Who appear to be loyal to another country, etc.

As a migrant worker, it is an eye-opening experience to be on the other side of the issue. I highly recommend it to anyone concerned with immigration.

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citadel

It doesn't bother me in the least if it's just their conversation, like going into a neighborhood business to talk with some people from "back home." I know from experience it's comforting to hear words you recognize when you're a long way from home.

I think it becomes a respect thing when dealing with people in a professional situation; if your boss and coworker are the only two in the room who speak a certain language, and it's work related, it's kind of rude to do it with words that no one else understands. One of my former co-workers was bilingual, and circumstances permitting, he would respond in English when people talked shop with him in another language, so that everyone else could keep up.

Teaching your kids another language will probbaly give them a huge advantage in life. No matter what field they're in, where their life takes them, they can always put it on a resume. Even if they're living in an area where they don't need to use it a lot (or ever), it's a skill that's easy for a child to pick up on, and one that can benefit them for the rest of their life.

It also gives them a unique look at their own cultural history. There's phrases and fables that can only be grasped by someone who understands the nuances of sentence structure and local jargon. Those little things that get lost in translation are a noticable loss.

Another thing, just because you're teaching your kids their language doesn't mean that they have to speak it all the time. If they go to a school, college, workplace or social gathering full of xenophobes or racists, they'll always have the opportunity to keep their other language as private as they'd like. Let's be honest, the kind of morons who'll give your kids crap about their names wouldn't feel any different if your kids only spoke one language.

Have you ever been to TX or AZ? Language goes further than "white people."

Ourcrazymodern?

Crackers happen, interpreters foil. The advantages afforded by listening outshine those provided by accepting what you're told. Tonal intent recognizes no morons, words aside.

Our lack of a common tongue doesn't really interfere with communication, does it?

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

citadel

You watch soap opera's in Russian, don't you?

Ourcrazymodern?

Comrade?

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KirStang

I think the "insult" is partially fueled by a western superiority complex. I can't even begin to describe the panoply of emotions that I feel when someone tells my (naturalized) parents to "go back to where you come from."

In the coming years, *should* the "Eastern" countries become stronger, it will be interesting to see how perceptions of cultures are tolerated.

In Taiwan, the big swinging d*ck imperialism of the United States is felt greatly--the perception that the USA is a great country and that "we should strive to be like the USA" is very strong. In fact, so much so that English language classes are taught along side Math and Geography.

Is this a legacy of Western dominance post WWII and imperialism? When a country is so strong that it makes sense to be inviting to them? I don't know.

/rant.

More on this later. Have to get up at 6:30 in the morning. (For a shotgun match. ).

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citadel

Hahahaha, I wasn't being serious.

dlish

i hear you BG. English is obviously accepted in Australia as the only common language. We have laws that state that all signs in other languages need to be translated into english as well. Fine, i have no issues with that.

But we would never accomodate to change street names or signage to accomodate other cultures. Not in the same way ive seen it in asia, africa and across the middle east. And that's the difference is see. asian and african countries are far more accomodating to outsiders than westerners are to outsiders.

ok, you have to translate this for me.. in aussie slang, 'my old man' refers to my father, and 'my old lady' refers to my mother. from what im understanding, 'my old lady' in your context refers to your partner?

lost in translation - english-english



as much as portland is an accepting state, i also find that people here at TFP are more accepting. they tend to be well educated, well read and generally open minded. if i ever move to the US, im moving in with you and zombie



its the englishmen here that have decided to not only not integrate into the culture, but be as rowdy as possible in the process. The culture here doesnt enforce that people must integrate, but to blatantly go out of your way to rubbish its lifestyle by being as english-like as possible is something else. on the odd occasion when you find an arab or indian that doesnt speak english, ive seen englishmen mock them because of this superiority they think they have over them.

sometimes i think its the political mandates the english had over many of these countries that forces the people to feel subserviant to the english masses here. this is especially the case with the indian subculture here. when i first moved here, my workers kept referring to me as 'sir'. so i told them that my name wasnt 'sir' and that they need to be calling me by my first name. They were absolitely shocked when they heard me utter those words. They told me that in all these years that they were dealing with westerners, that they'd never called their managers by their first name. By the end of 3 years they were calling me by my nickname.




spoken like a true expat



i dont intend on teaching my kids english 24x7. i grew up only speaking arabic at home up to the age of 5. my parents knew id pick up english in the school system, it was no issue to intensely learn arabic at home at a young age.

these days, its much harder to teach them only arabic in a western country. heck, its hard enough to teach arabic only in an arabic country! in a way that is sad, because my kids probably wont have the proficiency that i enjoyed, which is why i want to stress on the arabic language in their early years.


Kirstang - did you ever get those comments too? as a grew older, i got those comments less and less as time went on. It might have been for different reasons. but the first 10 years were probably the hardest.

Like i mentioned earlier, my wife still gets abused from time to time, but that's usually when something in the news pops onto the front page of the papers. she's been told to go back to where she comes from on more than one occasion. on one occasion after 911, she got chased off a train because she obviously looked different.

its also interesting that you mentioned the copy-cat mentality of the East towards anything Western. i see it a lot here in the middle east too. Modernity isnt such a bad thing, but blatant copying for the sake of being more western is cop-out to your own culture.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Ourcrazymodern?

why I deride the slippery tongue & reckon we can understand without it.

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dlish

i feel this way everytime roachboy decides to post anything.

makes me feel about |<-->| this big. makes me wonder if im the only dumb one around here.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Jove

I live in a conservative farming/hunting community where they feel that people from a different country living in the United States should speak “American” and find it offensive if someone speaks another language in front of them. I could argue with said individuals about the offensive comments, but I would be in the minority and looked upon like an alien, so I stay quiet on all matters. I find it interesting when I hear another person speaking another language and I feel like I should learn their language just out of respect.

Leto

Here's some examples of what BG was referring to around TO:

Greek street signs:







Chinese Street signs:






Korean Street signs:






other:








and of course, Good Old DeGrassi Street:

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Lindy

It only bothers me if I feel like I am being purposely excluded. If I'm at a bar, restaurant, grocery, etc. and people speak other than English, I really just don't care.

I took two semesters of Russian in college and fifteen years later can slowly and haltingly read Russian. And Italian. I can tell...sort of... what's going on in these languages, when I'm on the fringe of a conversation, even though I can't converse. I'm working on Swedish, which is my Sig other's native language.

Well, that IS interesting. I just see naked turgid obfuscation instead of the emperor's new clothes.

Lindy

james t kirk

I don't give a rat's ass what language someone wants to speak.

In Canada we have "Official Bilingualism". French and English are considered the official languages of the Federal Government.

Though on a provincial level, only New Brunswick can claim to be truly bilingual, though Ontario tries.

French is obviously huge in Quebec and Northern Ontario. I've been trying to improve my French for years now by taking courses at college and the Alliance Francais.

It's not easy.

I'm always in awe of people who can flip from French to English like it was nothing. In Montreal and Ottawa especially.