G5_Todd

you have got to be joking...

First of all the off duty / plain clothes police officer did not cut the bike off, he pulled up next to him....and if you still consider that cutting him off it happened at about 5mph if that...secondly not that he pulled in front of the bike, but its pretty standard for police officers on traffic stops with motorcycles to pull infront of them to help deter them from fleeing the traffic stop...

I don't have speakers on my computer so I am unsure if the off duty officer verbalized that he was a police officer or not but even so a marked police vehicle and uniformed police officer was on scene at the same time as the off duty officer...it was pretty obvious that the motorcyclist knew the gig was up after he passed the police officer in the median of the highway, as he was attempting to exit the highway at the next off ramp...

I am not sure what the outcome of this was if the kid on the bike was just issued a traffic citiation or arrested at the scene...but in my mind what he did was criminal...at the minimum its disorderly conduct / creating a public disturbance

---------- Post added at 10:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 PM ----------


Over zealous how so, I don't know exactly why he decided to draw his weapon. We have the luxury of sitting in our living rooms watching this video and then forming our opinions at our own pace...

This over zealous as you put it police officer did not have that luxury, I can't speak for Maryland but the use of force continuum in the state that I live in includes presentation of deadly force as a part of the lowest level of force which is constructive authority...."When circumstances create a reasonable belief that display of a firearm as an element of constructive authority helps
establish or maintain control in a potentially dangerous situation in an effort to discourage resistance and ensure officer safety." NJ Attorney General Guideline...

Was it just a guy commiting many traffic infractions to have fun? Yes...but the officer did not know that...

I am sorry for getting off the topic of the privacy issue, but after reading through the posts I could not resist...these bikes are a nuisance, I live on a residential road where the speed limit is 35 miles an hour...several times a day motorcycles pass my house at a ridiculous speed...I almost killed one of them pulling out of my drive way because I thought the road was clear and started to back into the roadway when one was approaching at a fantastic speed and almost got T-boned by him....Most of the time its not even the speed that bothers me its the noise they feel they need to make at 2am in the morning...so on this topic I am going to be slanted to be more on the side of the law...

__________________
"....and when you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy."

-General Franks

SirLance

As soon as it became a traffic stop, it became a workplace, and the courts have long held that we have no reasonable expectation of privacy in the workplace. Also, Graber has the right to gather any evidence, including audio evidence, that is exculpatory.

Edit, the wiretap charges were tossed.

__________________
DEMOCRACY is where your vote counts, FEUDALISM is where your count votes.

dksuddeth

what you talking bout, will?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Strange Famous

I dont want to derail this... but doesnt the fact that many of you live in a country where at very least a sensible argument can be made that it is justifiable to issue a speeding ticket at gun point, kind of make people wonder if the whole position on guns in America is wrong?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

G5_Todd

if I "drive it like I stole it" and get a gun pointed at me for that so be it...I wouldn't want to live in any other place

__________________
"....and when you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy."

-General Franks

The_Dunedan

What on Earth are you talking about? I can't find -any- justification for issuing a speeding ticket at gunpoint. The guy was an idiot, sure, but there's no justification at all for what this dumbass Jackboot did. The off-duty cop may even have been in the right for stopping the guy, or calling in the marked car that pulls up towards the end of the video. But there's no justification at all for jumping out of an unmarked car with a presented sidearm and ordering the speed-demon around. I would never dare draw my sidearm unless I was in immediate danger of life, limb, or liberty, or the situation as I read it could quickly have deteriorated towards such. But then again, I'm a Regular Joe, not one of the Only Ones. I don't get to wave my weapon in people's faces for being a dumbass, or to get their attention, or because I'm mad at them, or "just because." I have to act like a responsible adult entrusted by his friends and family with the means of dealing out Life and Death. This cop, on the other hand, gets to act like a buzzcut adolescent with a license to kill.

__________________
"I personally think that America's interests would be well served if after or at the time these clowns begin their revolting little hate crime the local police come in and cart them off on some trumped up charges or other. It is necessary in my opinion that America makes an example of them to the world."

--Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

G5_Todd

you are really naive...and you took that out of context

__________________
"....and when you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy."

-General Franks

Pearl Trade

You know he was talking about what Strange said, right? Hence the quote straight from Strange Famous' post.

Dunedan said what I feel. Traffic violations are minor, no need to pull the gun out like that.

The cop felt like he needed to use that amount of force at that moment, but he was wrong, so he should be held accountable.

After all, he serves us and we pay him...

__________________

Our revenge will be the laughter of our children.
Give me convenience or give me death!

Tully Mars

That's way it should work.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

StanT

In most western states, lane splitting is legal and 75mph speed limits are the norm.

87 in a 75, might or might not get you a ticket in Colorado. It certainly isn't unusual.

I'd have to read up on the specifics of lane splitting; but I believe most of the footage shown would qualify.

Note that I don't like it and I'd never do it; but lane splitting is legal in many juristictions.

The biker is being an aggressive asshole; but being an asshole isn't a crime by itself.

G5_Todd

yes I realize that

---------- Post added at 12:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:48 AM ----------

what about 127...what most people are missing is that the officer does not have a crystal ball he does not know why this guy was going 127 mph weaving inbetween traffic....hence the drawn weapon...how long were they chasing him....before he stopped? i dunno

__________________
"....and when you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy."

-General Franks

Xazy

Ask a cop one of the scariest things for them is pulling someone over and approaching them, which is why they recommend you turn on your inside light put hands on the wheel and wait for the cop to approach and do not exit the vehicle. If you exit the vehicle to talk to the cop you are almost definitely going to get a ticket (not a warning).

__________________
Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

dksuddeth

seriously? the last time I looked, being a police officer is a VOLUNTARY choice to make. there is absolutely zero reason to give a police officer any extra leeway to threaten or utilize lethal force for a fucking traffic ticket no matter the circumstances.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

dksuddeth

COPS show come to mind?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Baraka_Guru

Yeah, but with everyone, not just shoeless, wife-beater-wearing wife beaters. Maybe every cop should have a satellite cam and mic in their badges.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Cynthetiq

most do already in some form, they have dashcams

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Baraka_Guru

No way; too limited.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

G5_Todd

you want to see why police officers can approach a car with a weapon drawn? for only a speeding infraction!

Deputy Kyle Wayne Dinkheller | Laurens County Sheriff's Office, Georgia


Deputy Kyle Dinkheller, Laurens County, GA, was minutes from being off duty when he encountered a speeding pickup truck going 98 mph. The deputy was an ICE (Interstate Criminal Enforcement) officer that dealt with traffic infractions, speeding and the occasional drug bust. This was a low risk or unknown risk stop for speeding. He radioed in the speeding infraction, made a U-turn in the median and pursued the vehicle. The driver, Andrew Brannan, stopped his vehicle, exited and started a crazy, dancing jig in the middle of the road while swearing at the officer and shouting ‘I’m a god-damned Vietnam vet.” At first, he ignored Dinkheller’s commands to step towards the deputy, which always began with `Sir’. When he finally complied, he attacked the deputy and a scuffle ensued. The deputy implemented the use of his asp and ordered Brannan to `get back’. This procedure was repeated, but after what appeared to be a second scuffle, the suspect returned to his vehicle and retrieved a M-I Carbine from under the seat. The first shots were fired nearly 50 seconds after Brannan returned to his vehicle despite the deputy’s commands. Brannan ignored the repeated commands to put the gun down and Deputy Dinkheller apparently fired the first shot. Brannan, a Vietnam veteran, advanced firing on the deputy. Dinkheller returned fire, but succeeded only in breaking a window in the driver’s side of the pickup and wounding Brannan in the stomach. Using `suppressive fire’, Brannan systematically, methodically shot Dinkheller in the arms, legs, exposed areas that would not be covered had Dinkheller been wearing a bulletproof vest, slowly executing him. Reloading his weapon Brannan continued firing with the final death shot to Dinkheller’s right eye.

__________________
"....and when you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy."

-General Franks

Pearl Trade

I've seen that video before Todd. The cop fucked up because he was too scared to pull the trigger and take that clown down. He should have pulled his gun out as soon as the crazy guy jumped out of his truck. He should have beat some insane ass.

A cop should ALWAYS have his hand on his gun as he approaches the vehicle, but he should NEVER take it out unless he's threatened, which would include a man jumping out of his truck and dancing around while moving towards the officer.

It's sad what happened, but your video provides nothing to reinforce your opinion. Cop messed up, cop died.

__________________

Our revenge will be the laughter of our children.
Give me convenience or give me death!

uncle phil

is this asshole dead yet?

the jerk, not the cop...

__________________
"We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done."
- Robert S. McNamara
-----------------------------------------
"We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches...
We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles."
- Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message"
-----------------------------------------
never wrestle with a pig.
you both get dirty;
the pig likes it.

dksuddeth

i'm confused. Aren't police officers subject to HUNDREDS OF HOURS of firearms training? [/sarcasm]

maybe he should have been a better shot.

or maybe you'd like all violators, including parking citations, to be felony stopped to make sure they aren't armed and dangerous.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

G5_Todd

this is an older study but the stats for more recent ones are along the same %'s

Hit Potential In Gun Fights

The police officer's potential for hitting his adversary during armed
confrontation has increased over the years and stands at slightly over 25% of
the rounds fired. An assailant's skill was 11% in 1979.

In 1990 the overall police hit potential was 19%. Where distances could be
determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:

Less than 3 yards ..... 38%
3 yards to 7 yards .. 11.5%
7 yards to 15 yards .. 9.4%

In 1992 the overall police hit potential was 17%. Where distances could be
determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:

Less than 3 yards ..... 28%
3 yards to 7 yards .... 11%
7 yards to 15 yards . 4.2%

The distance in this confrontation is unknown from the video because the officer is out of view but I would assume he was at his door for some of it and at the rear of his vehicle as some point too...making it about 7 yards and he hit him in the stomach...how many times I dunno...


---------- Post added at 08:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:27 PM ----------

how does this not reinforce my point, my point was that even a traffic stop for speeding can turn into a police officer losing his life or have a fear of losing his life...this video shows just that...

you know why he hesitated? because a stupid supervisor had told him weeks earlier that if he drew his weapon again (stemming from a prior incident) he would have his job...I explained presentation of deadly force is a part of the lowest level of force which is constructive authority...."When circumstances create a reasonable belief that display of a firearm as an element of constructive authority helps establish or maintain control in a potentially dangerous situation in an effort to discourage resistance and ensure officer safety."

Obviously everyones opinion on what is reasonable is going to differ...I can respect that you don't think it was reasonable and leave it at that.


---------- Post added at 08:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:35 PM ----------

he was sentenced to death in 2000...not sure if its been carried out yet

__________________
"....and when you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy."

-General Franks

Tully Mars

Andrew Brannan is still on death row in Georgia.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

dksuddeth

there is a huge difference between having your hand on your gun and actually drawing it.

any hint as to what that prior incident might have been?

key words are 'potentially dangerous'. now, if you want to make the argument that any and all stops are potentially dangerous, then i'd say every traffic stop should be made with at least 4 cops, assault rifles, and helicopters. officer safety is paramount, after all.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Pearl Trade

From Wikipedia:
A felony traffic stop occurs when police stop a vehicle in that the driver is already known to be a suspect in a crime (such as an armed robbery, bank robbery, rape, etc). In such a traffic stops, police strongly prefer to have as many officers present as possible before effecting the arrest.

During such stops, officers will have their weapons drawn and typically over a loudspeaker announce for the driver to show their hands, step out and face away from the officer, walking backwards towards him. The driver is then taken into custody and the vehicle is typically searched.


To make every minor traffic stop a felony stop is simply not possible. Not enough resources, takes time, etc.

A cop pulling his gun out on an already freaked out driver who was speeding or had a tail light out is not reasonable. Police understand that the people they pull over are already scared and will show signs of being nervous, so do you think adding a gun to the mix will help the situation? If I see Johnny Law looking at me with his gun drawn, I'm gonna be scared shitless.

I bet he was told to keep his weapon tucked away because he took it out way too much, like the officer in the OP video did.

Speeding and reckless driving doesn't warrant presenting a deadly force. The biker in that video did nothing to give the policeman reason to pull his gun out. People speed and drive crazy all the time, it's almost "normal behavior." I'll probably take a little shit for claiming it to be normal behavior, but as far as traffic violations go, I bet they're at the top of the list for occurence.

__________________

Our revenge will be the laughter of our children.
Give me convenience or give me death!

G5_Todd

127 mph is hardly normal behavior...

__________________
"....and when you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy."

-General Franks

KirStang

Leave it to Maryland State Police ("MSP") to raid someone's home because they 'wiretapped' a police officer. If I was the cyclist in this instance, I'd probably speak to a civil rights attorney about pressing Federal Tort Claims Act claims against the MSP.

You would think, videotaping a public servant on a public road while they're executing a public duty would be okay.

Honestly to me, this smacks of the government trumping up some excuse to take down an embarrassing video--in other words, an abuse of power. Seems like MSP wanted to send a message, "Hey, don't mess with us" by bringing charges. However, as a police force, and absent countervailing factors, MSP had no right to claim 'privacy.'

Jinn

As much as your Brennan video is a clear appeal to emotion, dk is right. There's a huge difference between these two things.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Seaver

Why are we arguing about the Cop's right/wrong decision to draw the weapon? That's completely irrelevant to this wiretapping issue.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

G5_Todd

post #12 is where we start to hijack this thread...

many people in this thread don't realize how often police unholster there weapons on traffic stops and the person in the vehicle did not even realize it...situation dictates why the officer decides to do it, but it is not uncommon for them to unholster and hold the weapon in the concealed position such as behind there leg and when there initial reason for unholstering it is cleared it gets holstered without the occupants of the vehicle even knowing...

__________________
"....and when you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy."

-General Franks

Pearl Trade

I find that hard to believe. Something about police tells me "they go big or go home," meaning if they pull the gun out of the holster, they will point it at you and make it known they mean business. In all of the video I've seen of traffic stops, I've never seen a cop unholster his gun and hide it behind his leg.

Amen!

__________________

Our revenge will be the laughter of our children.
Give me convenience or give me death!

Tully Mars

I disagree with your all or nothing thought process here. Not how I was trained. Every situation is different. Traffic stops and domestic disturbances were my second least favorites parts of the job. With a TS you usually never know what you're going to get and almost, almost always you're basically alone. Better to be prepared then be sorry.

For the record the least favorite part of the job was "family notifications." Showing up at a strangers door at 0300 and informing them a family member is dead sucks ass. Sucks even more ass when you know the family. And I worked in a very rural area, everyone knew everyone.


Completely agree with you here. To think having a badge means you can conduct affairs behind a wall secrecy is completely absurd to me. Police and all LEO work best in a community when there are little or no secrets, IMO. Cruisers have dash cams for this very reason. This is what I did, this is what I said etc... I can honestly say I know more LEO's who've been spared endless horseshit investigations due to having a dash cam then civilians having their claims backed up. "Really she says I raped her? Well lets just go to the tape boss."

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Pearl Trade

Did you ever pull your gun out and hide it behind your leg or conceal it in any way during a traffic stop?

__________________

Our revenge will be the laughter of our children.
Give me convenience or give me death!

Cynthetiq

ask monkie, I think she's seen it.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Tully Mars

Sure. And I know lots of other officers that did the same. Back in the day it was probably more common simply due to equipment. My guess the ratio of times I had my hand on the weapon to weapon out decreased dramatically after getting an Uncle Mike's "Pro-Duty holster." Basically with that holster having your hand on it (which you'll often see an officer do during a stop) is the same as having out, lowered and next to your leg. At a min. prior to up grades in equipment, if anything looked fishy I'd have my holster unsnapped. Being in the middle of bum fuck nowhere with no coms, on a dark rainy night approaching a vehicle that just looks wrong makes the hair on the back of your head stand up.

Monkies never seen my weapon. All my weapons are safety stored in Oregon. Now repeat after me...

"This my weapon, this is my gun. This one's for fighting, this one's for fun."

---------- Post added at 06:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:23 PM ----------

See this is the mind set that creates our differing opinions I believe. You're making the assumption that everyone responds the same way to being stopped. They don't. I know of no stats on the topic but I'd guess you're describing about 30-40% of TS's. The other 60-70% are made up of all kinds of reactions. Many are not scared... they're pissed off. Everything from "Fuck you. Do you know who I am? I'll have your badge by this time tomorrow!" To "You can't pull me over, I mean I don't think you can, can you? My plates are out of state and you don't have jurisdiction in my state." And one of my personal favorites "You're making me late! Did you know you're making me late!?!"

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

ring

Thanks,Tully, for the enlightening facts of one who has dealt with the actual.
Even in my small town of 7000, the two times I was pulled over for a burnt out brake light,
I knew the drill. I saw the officer in my left side mirror casually pretend to scratch an an itch on his draw side,
as I kept my hands high & visible on the steering wheel.

It is & isn't always a matter of patrolling in a known rough area. Being highly tuned, aware & adapting to quickly changing situations is an art.

My first job at 18 was in airport security work.
Being constantly aware yet staying in a relaxed Zen mode was key.
We were tested frequently.

As Tully said: "A vehicle that just looks wrong makes the hair on the back of your head stand up."

Taking that inborn intuition & honing it finer through training is paramount to survival.

I don't know all the particulars of this traffic stop. But yeah, 127 MPH weaving
would draw more than my attention.

Tully Mars

I watched the video, and many like it, several times. It's easy to say "I would have..." Or "he should have..." The reality is who the hell knows? Until you're put in a situation where hot leads flying by your head no one knows. My guess here the vast majority of people here, including myself, would end up just as dead as Dep. Dinkheller. Having a bat shit crazy guy firing a M-1 at you would really throw off your game I'd guess.

Personally I'm glad I never had the opportunity to find out.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

ring

Yep, I agree.

G5_Todd

Well put Tully, no one knows how they would react to small arms fire until it happens...cops don't have crystal balls...they aren't superman with xray vision....and a popular motto among those that carry a patrol rifle is: I carry my pistol to fight my way to my rifle...

The Deputy fought for his life, unfortunately he was fighting a guy that had him out gunned and prolly did not care if he lived...

__________________
"....and when you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy."

-General Franks