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Old 07-09-2007, 01:25 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Checkers, the board game

So along the lines of the discussion going on about chess, I was curious as to what were people's opinion on checkers (also known as draughts in most countries)

Generally, chess, because it is harder to learn, is looked at as the more difficult game and checkers, because it is easy to learn, is for kids/old men. So what are your thoughts?

Of course, as one might guess from me starting this thread, there is much more to checkers than people tend to realize. Although easier to learn, it is this simplicity that makes it so difficult to master. For example, chess tends to be more broad, as in more pieces, do more things, which is harder to keep up with. Checkers, on the other hand, has less pieces, that do the same thing, which is easier to keep up with, but in turn, means you have to be very accurate to not make any mistakes. Because of this, in chess, the top players tend to look 10-11 moves ahead correctly. In checkers, the top players tend to look 20-30 moves ahead correctly. These #s being estimates of course.

I could seemingly talk strategy, both checkers and chess for seemingly forever, so I'll stop there while I give you all some time to get your thoughts straight and type a reply. So I'll leave you with a quote, which I think accurate describes both games:

"Chess is like looking across a limitless ocean; Checkers is like looking into a bottomless well"

- Marion Tinsley (considered the greatest checker player of all time)
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Old 07-09-2007, 02:57 PM   #2 (permalink)
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wow. honestly, it never occured to me that checkers was so involved. mostly because of the reasons you already said. now i shall look closer at checkers....
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Old 07-09-2007, 04:29 PM   #3 (permalink)
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yea I probably put way too much to start off, but i couldn't help myself lol

Checkers and Chess are equal when it comes to difficulty - although they are so much alike, they are 2 different types of strategy - proof in this is there have been chess players who could not master checkers, and vice versa - although there are some exceptions

things I have read say checkers is more math based and chess is more analytical

Last edited by bazkitcase5; 12-18-2007 at 02:26 PM..
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Old 07-11-2007, 08:53 AM   #4 (permalink)
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yep, I can definitely see what people think about checkers now lol
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Old 12-18-2007, 02:27 PM   #5 (permalink)
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bring this up from the grave - maybe I'll get more replies this time lol
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Old 12-18-2007, 03:00 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Checkers is far more finite. You have half of the squares to consider, and at any given time, you have a dozen or so legal moves (never more than 24). That's why good checker players go out 30 (or whatever) moves, and chess players go out 10...after 10 moves in chess, the amount of legal board configurations after 10 turns is probably more than checkers after 30.

Finally, wasn't checkers 'solved' not to long ago?

Edit: yep:

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/1144079

Quote:
The game of checkers has roughly 500 billion billion possible positions (5 x 1020). The task of solving the game, determining the final result in a game with no mistakes made by either player, is daunting. Since 1989, almost continuously, dozens of computers have been working on solving checkers, applying state-of-the-art artificial intelligence techniques to the proving process. This paper announces that checkers is now solved: Perfect play by both sides leads to a draw. This is the most challenging popular game to be solved to date, roughly one million times as complex as Connect Four. Artificial intelligence technology has been used to generate strong heuristic-based game-playing programs, such as Deep Blue for chess. Solving a game takes this to the next level by replacing the heuristics with perfection.
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Old 12-18-2007, 03:14 PM   #7 (permalink)
 
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I like checkers much more than chess. especially since i can kick ass at it :most: of the time against my friends.
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Old 12-18-2007, 09:42 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I haven't played checkers in years, more like decades. I used to play it with my grandparents. For hours. Its a great game to occupy a child. Thanks for bringing this subject up. Made me reminisce and gave me a smile.
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Old 12-19-2007, 09:21 AM   #9 (permalink)
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It's been years since I played checkers too. Now I'm gonna have to go play it again.

Maybe if I look 20-30 moves ahead I won't suck at it like I used to.


(I suck at chess, too)
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Old 12-19-2007, 01:44 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedmosaic
Checkers is far more finite. You have half of the squares to consider, and at any given time, you have a dozen or so legal moves (never more than 24). That's why good checker players go out 30 (or whatever) moves, and chess players go out 10...after 10 moves in chess, the amount of legal board configurations after 10 turns is probably more than checkers after 30.

Finally, wasn't checkers 'solved' not to long ago?

Edit: yep:

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/1144079

see, thats part of the problem - no human can ever master chess or checkers, so it doesn't really matter if it is more "finite" to a computer or not, unless of course your using a computer to play the game for you!

to a human, or the people who will actually be playing the game of checkers for the purpose of enjoying themselves, whether competitively or casually, it is every bit as difficult to play as chess... - as I said previously, there have been chess masters who could not master checkers and vice versa...

as far as checkers being solved, as said in the quote, "solved" only means determining the final result in a game with no mistakes made by either player; or also, perfect play by both sides leads to a draw

in order words, something checker players have already known for over a century now... I already knew that if I were playing against another master checker player and neither of us made a mistake, the game would be a draw, computers have merely proven it

same can be said for chess, if 2 players make no mistakes, the game will be a draw, but it will take a while for computers to gain the technology to "prove" this already known fact
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Old 12-20-2009, 08:14 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xerxys View Post
I have to be honest with you, I used to play checkers and I have played every variation of it. It is a standard rotational strategy. I have won every single game when I realized how to keep the back wall out of focus and maintain a proper offensive. It all occurred to me very fast and frankly I might have been playing with very ordinary people but I beat everyone I enountered even online.

With chess, however, the variables are STAGGERING! I take eons before I decide on a proper move that will both effect offense and defense at the same time. Even then when I am playing with a novice, I end up overthinking it and been defeated. Chess IS harder than checkers. No matter how you want to spin it.
I am honestly very disappointed that you would come to such a conclusion, with such little evidence. Especially considering that 95% of people you encounter (if not more), even online, are novice level players at best.

None the less, you sound convinced, so there is nothing I can say to change your mind (although I've played and studied both games for years). The only other thing I can think of is to challenge you to some games somewhere online and see if I can convince you that way.
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Old 12-20-2009, 09:05 PM   #12 (permalink)
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^^ i wasn't meaning to demean your experience. I'd like to know more about checkers. But I have more than a laymans grasp of the theory behind it.

I haven't "solved" it because it appears only a computer can do that. But I have learned one perfect play that works most of the time I play it.
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Old 12-20-2009, 09:56 PM   #13 (permalink)
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it was only this quote: "Chess IS harder than checkers. No matter how you want to spin it."

this bothered me, considering your admitted lack of experience with the game to make a statement like that

as mentioned up thread, this is statement is only true when involving computers - however, at this point, checkers programs beat the best human checker players and chess programs beat the best chess players

for humans, the games are equally difficult and no human is unbeatable in either - I love discussing it though, even though I admit I can sometimes get defensive knowing how much there really is to learn and how much time I've spent studying the game, merely to crack the surface

I'd still like to play some games with you online somewhere - maybe I can open your eyes to a whole new world of strategy =)

---------- Post added at 11:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:35 PM ----------

A good friend of mine who plays both games in tournaments, said this:

There are about 500 quintillion possible positions in checkers, and even the Chinook endgame database can only handle about 39 trillion of those with absolute certainty. And unlike in chess, where many weak positions can be salvaged by trickery or counter-play of some sort, weak moves in checkers are generally both permanent (since men can't move backwards) and fatal. Sure, there are a select few man-down gambits, but nothing approaching the level in chess.

Overall, I'd put it this way: chess and checkers are both difficult and nearly impossible for humans to master, but for different reasons. In checkers, there are so many critical positions that you have to memorize many lines of exact play, but the actual tactics are fairly straightforward. But in chess, memorization is less useful since there are so many sound variations of a given opening, so you have to learn a lot more tactics and ways to recognize when those tactics will come up. Or, to use Marion Tinsley's quote: "Chess is like looking across a never ending ocean. Checkers is like looking down a bottomless well."

I've got more material on Marion Tinsley and the program Chinook if your interested. I have lots of resources in fact. haha
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Old 12-20-2009, 11:59 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I was told once (and I have no real way to challenge) that as games appear to look more simple, the complexity multiplies. For example, Chess is tough for all the reasons laid out above, but Go has 2 pieces, hardly any rules, and is harder.

Looks like Draughts is similar in that it has misleading simplicity.
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:16 PM   #15 (permalink)
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to expand upon the solved issue, for the tech experts, or those who just might be interested in such a thing, check out this article:

well the article I was going to post was too big - if your interested, pm your e-mail address and I'll send it to you that way

edit to add that the article posted by telekinetic above actually contains the full article, but you have to have access to see it - I have the article saved to PDF on my computer - reading the entire article explains a lot more if your interested in artificial intelligence

Last edited by bazkitcase5; 12-21-2009 at 04:31 PM..
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:45 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I can remember playing checkers when I was little with my brother and shouting, "King Me!"

I haven't played it since then, I don't know why.
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:54 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Never been interested pretty much for the reasons the OP said except obviously I feel differently. I'd rather spend my time playing chess. Feels too much like tick tack toe which is absurdly easy to figure out. Of course, sounds like I may have been wrong now. Still though, I think I prefer a game with different pieces/multiple strategies regardless of difficulty. More options=more fun to me.

---------- Post added at 05:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:50 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by bazkitcase5 View Post
same can be said for chess, if 2 players make no mistakes, the game will be a draw, but it will take a while for computers to gain the technology to "prove" this already known fact
I'm no chess master so not positive but I'm pretty sure that isn't true. If both players make *no* mistakes, then the player that went first will win. He always has a slight advantage.
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Old 12-21-2009, 05:04 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I think it's indisputable that checkers is simpler than chess. Note that there's a distinction to be made between 'simpler' and 'easier.'

At opening, a checkers player has 7 possible moves to choose from, and his opponent has 7 possible reactions. Compare this to chess, where there are 20 possible openers on either side; it continues in that vein right up to the end game, where a good player will be executing the final moves of his strategy and there will likely be only 1-2 moves available to his or her opponent.

From this we might conclude that the key to victory in a game of checkers lies in the first few moves. Thus why experienced players are looking 30 moves in advance; it wouldn't surprise me to learn that an experienced player knows how the game will conclude by move 3 or 4.

It's a different type of strategy, which is why the game appeals to a different sort of person.
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:04 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I'm not sure where people get that from, but unless it was a horrible move, an experienced player does not necessarily know how the game will conclude after 3 or 4 moves and looking 30 moves ahead is reserved for the best of the best of all time.

In reality, it is this limited amount of moves that makes the game comparable to chess. The reason is, each move becomes much more important, because the regular men can not move backwards. Any mistake made can not be retracted and could become fatal if the position is weak enough. As mentioned by my friend above:

"And unlike in chess, where many weak positions can be salvaged by trickery or counter-play of some sort, weak moves in checkers are generally both permanent (since men can't move backwards) and fatal. Sure, there are a select few man-down gambits, but nothing approaching the level in chess."

PS, I am not trying to persuade people to like one game over the other. I fully understand that some people just have different preferences. I have played and studied both games for years and I happen to prefer checkers. I am only trying to argue that one game is not more difficult than the other when it comes to humans playing humans.

---------- Post added at 12:04 AM ---------- Previous post was Yesterday at 11:26 PM ----------

Zeraph, not trying to convince you one way or the other, but if you have never bothered to truly learn the game of checkers and play at a high level, how do you know that you will not enjoy it more? There are a lot of misinformed assumptions being made in this thread and my goal in these discussions is to inform. There is so much more than meets the eye. Also, comparing checkers to tic tac toe is a slap in the face. I solved tic tac toe in like 10 minutes by myself when I was a kid. A person could study checkers his entire life and still not figure out everything.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeraph View Post
I'm no chess master so not positive but I'm pretty sure that isn't true. If both players make *no* mistakes, then the player that went first will win. He always has a slight advantage.
The catch is that this advantage can not always be converted to a win. After all, King on King is a draw, King + Bishop/Knight on King is also a draw. There is also King + Pawn vs King + Pawn. Assuming perfect play leads to this position, and White's advantage is they get to turn their pawn into a queen first. However, if Black turns their pawn into a queen the very next move (of course assuming neither Queen will be captured immediately), then the game is a draw with perfect play. In each situation, White has a slight advantage, but the game is still a draw.

Obviously it can not be proven at this point in time, as no person or computer has played perfect to this point, but I would lean towards the game being a draw with perfect play.
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:09 PM   #20 (permalink)
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You'll note that I said 'it wouldn't surprise me to learn.' I'm not speaking from a position of authority here, and aside from the mechanics of it do not claim to be stating any sort of fact. Just my thoughts on the game based on my understanding of the rules.

I claim no real expertise on the strategic aspects of checkers, as I haven't played since childhood. My comment was regarding only the relative complexity of the games, which is a different metric from difficulty.

It's often true that a simpler game is easier, but that's not universal. Golf is a simple game, but anyone who hits the links for the first time will quickly learn that the simplicity of it doesn't make it easy.

I posited above that a game of checkers is 'over' relatively early on, as compared to a game of chess. Your talk of mistakes being fatal and irreversible seems to confirm that, and is a function of the simplicity.

The relative simplicity of checkers is why it's a solved game, while chess is not.

Naturally, a function of checkers being a solved game is that we already know that two people playing perfect games will end in a draw. We might posit, then, that checkers is more about spotting and exploiting errors in your opponent's judgment, as well as attempting to create situations that cause such blunders. I'm thinking something like reducing an opponent's moveset sufficiently that all moves end in catastrophe.

Perhaps I should amend my above statement, as I see now the reasoning was flawed. It might be more accurate to say that a highly skilled player is able to project how the game will end as soon as his opponent makes a mistake.
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