The decline of the American male - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Baraka_Guru · 06-23-2009, 11:53 AM

This op-ed appeared recently on USAToday.com:

Quote:

Decline of the American male

The recession has been particularly unkind to men and has larger implications for their health, safety and well-being. The Obama administration should address this disparity.

By David Zincenko

Like most Americans, I look at the news about the economy, the need for health care reform and our growing national debt, and I worry about how we're going to escape the recession.

But as someone who has spent his career working to save an endangered species men I have another worry on my mind: What are we going to do about the Great He-cession?

This troubling trend has been going on for several years, but it really picked up speed at the end of 2008. Of the 5.2 million people who've lost their jobs since last summer, four out of five were men. Some experts predict that this year, for the first time, more American women will have jobs than men. And that's just furthering the decline of the endangered male.

Consider this: A 2007 government survey found that of the 36.8 million American adults who lack health insurance, 56% are men. But given the tremendous percentage of lost jobs that were held by men, that number could skyrocket. For family men, at least, there's a built-in safety net: The preponderance of two-career couples means that women, and their secure jobs, often provide the benefits. It's men who are single or divorced and who, studies show, live shorter lives than their married brethren who now make up the largest segment of the unemployed and uninsured. The impact of this in the form of untreated illness and injury will follow single men around for a generation.

As the Obama administration contemplates its strategy for health care reform, it isn't just the unemployed and uninsured we need to keep in mind. We need an overhaul of the system to take care of the hardworking people who do hold on to their jobs and pay a dear price for it. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, men make up the majority of those injured on the job. In the manufacturing, mining and construction fields, 86% of workplace injuries and illnesses occur to men and 92% of workplace-related deaths are men as well.

5 fewer years to live

And let's remember our injured vets: 98% of the Iraq wounded are men, and for many of them, their war-related health problems will continue for a lifetime.

Psychological issues again, often left untreated because of a lack of employment and insurance affect men in much greater numbers, as well. Almost 70% of homeless adults are men, and the suicide rate for young men is five times that of young women.

These factors help explain why, in 2006, the average American male could expect to live 5.1 fewer years than the average woman; a black American male will likely live 11 fewer years than a white American woman. (By contrast, in 1920 men and women could expect to enjoy about the same lifespan.)

Despite the overwhelming evidence that men are being left behind, the U.S. government has never made a concerted effort to address male health issues. Right now, there are seven (seven!) offices of women's health in the U.S. government: six in the Department of Health and Human Services and one in the Department of Agriculture. And the Pentagon makes huge investments in women's health research. Yet there is not a single federal organization that encourages and disseminates physical and mental health research for and about men.

It's payback time

One argument for funding so many health service organizations targeted to those citizens who already enjoy the best health, the most insurance, the longest lifespan, and the safest and most plentiful jobs that would be women is that it's payback time. Medical research in the past has been conducted primarily on men, and (theoretically, at least), men got the benefits of that research, so women need the opportunity to catch up.

Obviously, however, the life-expectancy totals don't bear that out. Women have gained in the past century, while men have fallen behind. And saying men benefit from being experimented upon is like envying the lab rats for their medical careers. Men especially soldiers, prisoners and minorities have been research subjects because they were, in some sense, expendable. And men can't become pregnant, another reason why bombarding the bodies of women with untested chemicals and other therapies is frowned upon, while doing the same to men often elicits little more than shrugs.

The Obama administration showed great eagerness in addressing the problems of women soon after it took office, with the establishment of the White House Council on Women and Girls. We applaud that move, and we now look for equal time for the males of the species.

So as momentum for health care reform builds and melds with the president's economic agenda, let's think about the Americans who are most likely to face unemployment, a lack of insurance, and the untreated physical and psychological problems that make their lives that much shorter and harder. In other words, let's think about men. It's about time we caught a break, and a he-covery would be just the thing.

David Zinczenko is the editor in chief of Men's Health and the co-author of the Eat This, Not That! series.

Decline of the American male - Opinion - USATODAY.com

This doesn't just apply to American men. I think much of this affects men in Canada and men in several other nations as well.

There are some things here I already knew...for example, I already know that men tend to have more issues with suicide, and add in divorce and you'll find that men suffer disproportionately from depression.

While I applaud the effort and progress of recent decades regarding women's issues (including health, safety, and rights), I am a bit alarmed at the observations I've made over time contrasting men's issues.

This op-ed highlights in a general sense the disparity. One example I like to point out is the differences in public profile of breast cancer vs. prostate cancer. I wouldn't be surprised to find that many men know more about detecting and treating breast cancer than they do prostate cancer. The other difference is that prostate cancer is more difficult to detect, and the testing is far from perfect...some would say it's rather inadequate. So why so much more effort raising awareness of one over the other? Comparative research dollars is another issue.

This is just one example of many indicating that men aren't as well off as some of us would assume.

I could go into social and psychological issues, but I'd rather see how this topic unfolds here.

I would argue that there is a silent crisis of manhood. There are many social stigmas that act as a barrier to discussing—or even acknowledging—these issues. I think a big part of that is the tiptoeing around the debates of equality on many fronts, in addition to problems of political correctness and, in a few cases, double standards. And I think the issue pointed out above about "payback" is nothing but contentious.

Men are not okay.

What do you think?

snowy · 06-23-2009, 12:27 PM

I think we're going through a transition period with the social construction of the male gender in American society. It's difficult to put into words precisely what I mean, but I will try. In the past, men were raised to believe that they needed to be the breadwinner, and that they could expect to have a wife that would take care of the home and the children. As women have entered the labor force, expectations of men have changed dramatically. Men are not only expected to still bring home some of the bacon, but they are expected to step up when it comes to household chores and parenting, so that their wives don't have to work the second shift. Similarly, this idea extends into mental health issues; men are receiving conflicting messages about what it means to be a man. Do you share your feelings or don't you? Popular media says one thing, self-help books another.

This is a huge paradigm shift in what it means to be an American male, in what that identity is. I see a clear difference between men of my father's generation and men of my generation. One positive thing I see is more willingness on the part of men to be active parents.

I wonder if others have seen the same phenomenon.

One thing Zincenko's piece didn't mention was the fact that the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act almost exclusively puts money towards projects with occupations dominated by men, and that men are the ones who stand to benefit most from the stimulus money being spent.

Baraka_Guru · 06-23-2009, 12:35 PM

I don't have a lot of time to comment right now, snowy, but I like where you're going.

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowy

One thing Zincenko's piece didn't mention was the fact that the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act almost exclusively puts money towards projects with occupations dominated by men, and that men are the ones who stand to benefit most from the stimulus money being spent.

I will respond to this, though. I think the issue is that the money is going towards the hardest hit areas, which, as Zincenko points out, affected men disproportionately. They're trying to fix the bad areas. I'm guessing there isn't as much of a need to fix those areas that are weathering things better. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Willravel · 06-23-2009, 12:36 PM

I see this as a transition period into a better way of existing, not a "decline". We're correcting for thousands of years of gender inequality and unhealthy societal problems. I'm pissed that it hasn't been that way since the dawn of civilization. I can understand established gender rolls when we were hunter gathers, but once we had the agricultural revolution we didn't change what needed to be changed.

I for one welcome a coequal place in society regardless of gender, and I am hopeful about the destination that finally seems to be in sight. Men are finally going to be okay.

Plan9 · 06-23-2009, 12:38 PM

I read somewhere that the anthropological / biological reason why women live longer is linked to the usefulness of grandmothers over grandfathers.

...

I'm most interested in the mental health aspect. After serving in the military and returning to the pool, I'm constantly prompted with the imperatives of two cultures. Genitals aren't just reproductive equipment, they're linked to an entire way of thinking and acting. It's all that hot-hot C19H28O2 in action.

...

Men are getting their asses kicked legally. Child custody, abortion rights, etc.

...

I'm going to go stew on this and see if I can bump some braincells together.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

I for one welcome a coequal place in society regardless of gender

You mean sex?

And why should we be equal? We're not. To treat men and women the same in every aspect is a great way to blanket society in discontent and mediocrity.

Equality, huh? Riddle me this: Where is the straight line in the Tao symbol?

Willravel · 06-23-2009, 12:46 PM

I didn't say biologically equal. Men aren't going to start to give birth as a sign of their support for gender equality. But we can accept that women can have careers, win bread, and all that jazz, just as men can cook, clean, and raise the kids.

Plan9 · 06-23-2009, 12:50 PM

Did I say biologically? Don't be ludicrous. I was referring to the innate biological differences in mood, learning styles, emotional needs, etc. The mental stuff.

inBOIL · 06-23-2009, 01:23 PM

Advocating for the correction of these imbalances is all to often painted as a form of misogyny. To some extent, this is tied up in men's self-perception (not wanting to look weak), and self-interest (not wanting to look like a sexist). But it's also a result of the radical feminist hatred for all things masculine. While this attitude is fairly rare, its disproportionate prominence in our culutral psyche ensures that gender imbalances that harm men will remain for quite a while longer.

Willravel · 06-23-2009, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin

Did I say biologically? Don't be ludicrous. I was referring to the innate biological differences in mood, learning styles, emotional needs, etc. The mental stuff.

There are differences, but they're not as great as most would have us think. Those minor differences shouldn't be ignored, but they aren't getting in the way of progress.

Xerxys · 06-23-2009, 01:49 PM

I don't see where the equalituy argument helps when it goes like this ... to treat women or men differently would be to offer either one more rights than the other. This cannot end well. Men and women are not equal biologically but there are some people who can excel better than some other people in the same field regardless of gender. The fact that there are more women/men in said field is useless, demographics are useless for determining who it is will be allocating resources. We look at the individual that is actually capable of handling such tasks. Equality falls here. i.e. If more men are chosen for a specific task it simply means that more able men than women showed up for the interview. This is the 21st century.

That said, snowy has it straight up ...

Sorry B_G got nothing to add to the OP ...

Willravel · 06-23-2009, 01:58 PM

What about the decline of the American God King? Can Xerxes adapt to changing modern societal norms?

pig · 06-23-2009, 03:39 PM

As an old friend of mine once said many moons ago, "Equality does not imply identicality..." if that's even a word. Point being, you can have an overarching sense of equality without requiring the sexes to be identical in form and function, seeing as how in many ways we simply are not.

That said, I can't say I've though much about about men suffering disproportionately in response to the economic issues we are facing. I will say that I think it's ridiculous to expect to have a major cultural shift, largely brought upon my technological advances, in social gender roles for women without expecting a necessary shift in gender roles for men. Nothing happens in a vacuum. I think a large part of this is related to the avarice of corporate America. Just as technology was supposed to free us up to work less hours...after all, the machines would be carrying the heavy load...right?...it has turned out that we are now tethered to our workforce productivity roles more tightly than ever. Instead of freeing up our time, we reduce the economic bottom line. Similarly, instead of increasing the workforce responsibilities of women and reducing the responsibilities of men...we now simply have homes where both the man and woman, or husband and wife, or husband and husband or wife and wife...both work 40+ hour jobs and strive for professional excellence. At least in the Western world. I can only imagine that we will have to negotiate a trade-off between the necessary roles of maintaining a stable home, which used to the sole responsibility of the female, into a shared responsibility...or we will continue along the path of reduction of lifestyle for people in general.

As a side note, I think it's interesting to juxtapose these questions of the social roles of men and women living in a Western-type culture versus the shit that people in developing areas have to live through. Do these things translate to countries with substantially lower standards of living in a meaningful way? I'm not so sure. I can't wrap my head around it. I should probably just delete this post and think about it some more, but I'm not going to. C'est la vie.

Xerxys · 06-23-2009, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

What about the decline of the American God King? Can Xerxes adapt to changing modern societal norms?

Dude, I influence what you see and hear ... I started the many words such as 'dude' and the slang that you are so commonly adopted to. Heck, because of me the English language is spoken.

My biggest trick was to convince you hip-hop is to blame for all evils of the earth ... muahahahahhaha

Ooops, said too much

thespian86 · 06-23-2009, 07:55 PM

I learned a very important lesson which was inspired by an episode of 30 Rock.

The different sub-catagories we use for humans (race, sex, capability) aren't looking for equality, they are looking for equivalency.

FelixP · 06-23-2009, 08:05 PM

I tend not to get involved in issues as complex as this becaue it's too time consuming to put my thoughts into writing (I graduated school already; I'm done with that shit!) and respond to other people's counter-points, but I have noticed this to some degree.

I'm a subcontractor (General Contracting). My boss and coworkers are all male. I have NEVER met a female construction worker (although I did hear of ONE). We had a ton of business in early '08. Then the shit hit the fan. People lost money. No one wanted to pay us to fix their houses. I worked less than fifteen days in february and march. We were one of the busiest companies in that time span, so that should give you an idea of how bad off things were in trades.

Then the Jeep factory starting laying off "workers". Suddenly there's an influx of know-nothing slackass union communists trying to become tradesmen. They thought they could buy a ladder, a five dollar brush, and badabing, they're a painter. So people hire those douchebags because they're so cheap, meaning us REAL tradesmen don't get work. They're bad at their "job", which makes us all look bad, further damaging the industry.

Well, that's enough ranting for one night.

girldetective · 06-24-2009, 09:41 AM

At work with only a few minutes, but I will tell you that I believe the gender transition is not over. I got a lot of flack from Jeremy regarding "being a girl", although I am quite self-sufficient, work, and so forth. If he and I had adopted a child, he would have been the house husband and social direction. Me, I would have brought home the vegetarian bacon.

With Tango, it was just the opposite. I could not be girly enough.

My daughter, she marrying a tran in August. He is the best of both really.

Martian · 06-24-2009, 08:27 PM

An interesting article popped up in my newsfeed just now, which ties into the whole theme of misandry. I thought it appropriate here:

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Male workers win equal pay claims

BBC News click to show

...

So I says to Crompsin the other night, I says, "misandry gets a pass, because nobody buys the white anglo male as a credible victim."

The problem is one of labels.

Shauk · 06-24-2009, 08:53 PM

Men are also 9 times more likely to be the victim of homicide.

Male testosterone levels have dropped almost 40% in the past 50 years, and many species right now have 0 males. I read somewhere about an English fish species that has like 1 male for every 100 females, and in fact has more hermaphrodites. Worldwide, testosterone levels are falling in all species.

The disappearing male

Quote:

The disappearing male
Studies show rise in birth defects, infertility among men
Sonja Puzic, Windsor Star
Published: Thursday, November 06, 2008

Are males becoming an endangered species?

That's the question scientists and researchers have been pondering since alarming trends in male fertility rates, birth defects and disorders began emerging around the world.

More and more boys are being born with genital defects and are suffering from learning disabilities, autism and Tourette's syndrome, among other disorders.

Male infertility rates are on the rise and the quality of an average man's sperm is declining, according to some studies.

But perhaps the most disconcerting of all trends is the growing gender imbalance in many parts of heavily industrialized nations, where the births of baby boys have been declining for many years.

What many scientists are calling the most important -- and least publicized -- issue surrounding the future of the human race will be highlighted in a CBC documentary that features two Windsor researchers who've studied the phenomenon.

Titled The Disappearing Male and premiering tonight at 9 on CBC-TV, the documentary includes interviews with Jim Brophy and Margaret Keith, adjunct sociology professors at the University of Windsor.

They have been studying the decline in the birth of male children in the Aamjiwnaang First Nation community located next to the infamous Chemical Valley, Canada's largest concentration of petrochemical plants, near Sarnia.

A paper co-authored by Keith and published three years ago in the U.S. journal Environmental Health Perspectives suggests that exposure to various chemicals produced by industrial plants surrounding the Aamjiwnaang reserve land may be skewing the community's sex ratio.

The researchers looked at the community's birth records since 1984 and saw "a dramatic drop in the number of boys being born in the last 10 years, particularly in the five-year period between 1998 and 2003," Brophy said.

Of 132 Aamjiwnaang babies born between 1999 and 2003, only 46 were boys. Typically, about 105 boys are born for every 100 girls in Canada.

High miscarriage rates and a unusually high number of children suffering from asthma were also noted by researchers.

Although the link between pollutants and human reproduction has not been firmly established, there is growing evidence that the birth sex ratio can be altered by exposure to certain chemicals, such as dioxin, PCBs and pesticides. Brophy said studies done in the United States, Japan and Europe seem to support the theory that the so-called endocrine disrupting chemicals have a particular effect on males.

Some of these chemicals are found in commonly used products such as baby bottles and cosmetics. They can also cause miscarriages and a "whole host" of disorders in a male child, Brophy said.

Brophy said soil and water contamination in and around the Aamjiwnaang reserve had been documented before, including in a University of Windsor study that found high levels of PCBs, lead, mercury and various chemicals in the area in the late 1990s. Accidental chemical spills in the area have not been uncommon.

Vana · 06-25-2009, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

What do you think?

I think the reactionary men's movement is not helpful. It creates a stereotypical 'woman' and 'man' who do not exists, and describes that 'woman' in a very unflattering way. That 'woman' has nothing to do with any real woman. Men's liberation is pretty much just the worst excesses of feminism overwritten with 'Man' and 'Woman' switched around. Men have the main job to do in overthrowing the "American Male", they need to get busy, not cry about it.

Baraka_Guru · 06-25-2009, 07:35 AM

I agree that there is no true equality between the genders, and that we have inherent differences. This is not to say we don't have a lot of overlap, however. This is why we see gender-based treatment in psychological and physiological capacities.

This is a key part of the issue. Men are falling behind when it comes to these things. Look at the difference in how we approach depression when it comes to men and women. Look at the issues men have with their own health. Many of them don't go to the doctor until something happens, yet there is a whole culture of a holistic health community among women.

We have had such a huge push to bring women up to speed regarding their health that there now exists an imbalance. There is so much focus on women, so many programs and institutions. Most of them are justified. It wasn't too long ago that women were treated by doctors as though they were men who could have babies. But look at what's happening. Men are living in the shadow of women's issues, and they are beginning to pay the price.

Shauk brings up yet another issue. I've read elsewhere about the declining reproductive health in men. There are a number of cases of dropping sperm counts, and there seems to be much confusion. Why is this not a bigger issue that it is?

Vana, I agree that a reactionary men's movement wouldn't be helpful, even though it was for women, but that was a different situation entirely. At the same time, as Martian has brought up, misandry itself is an odd thing. There are many who have a problem with even acknowledging that misandry even exists. I could give you a list of examples quite easily.

I think the crux of the problem lies in the fact that men—especially white anglo men—are viewed as the "norm" or the benchmark for all else. This happens in issues of race as well, where "Whiteness" exists only as a benchmark to which all other races are compared. But this is a reason why Whiteness is in crisis in terms of identity.

In some ways, manhood has the same problem. Many think men are doing fine...they have higher pay than women, they don't have the same reproductive issues, they have certain privileges based on their gender. So everything must be fine, right?

Well, no. It's just how not all white people are fine. Men suffer more than many may let on. Depression, anxiety, victimhood, behavioral problems, education problems—all of these things can afflict men just as they do women. Men are not machines; they are not as strong as you may think. This "legend" or "myth" of manhood should soon give way to what is more tied to reality: manhood is in crisis, and we must start doing something about it.

n0nsensical · 06-25-2009, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vana

I think the reactionary men's movement is not helpful. It creates a stereotypical 'woman' and 'man' who do not exists, and describes that 'woman' in a very unflattering way. That 'woman' has nothing to do with any real woman. Men's liberation is pretty much just the worst excesses of feminism overwritten with 'Man' and 'Woman' switched around. Men have the main job to do in overthrowing the "American Male", they need to get busy, not cry about it.

hehe I tend to agree.. men and women are much more similar than...certainly the USAToday...would have you believe

Gender stories attract a lot of attention

Vana · 06-26-2009, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Vana, I agree that a reactionary men's movement wouldn't be helpful, even though it was for women, but that was a different situation entirely. At the same time, as Martian has brought up, misandry itself is an odd thing. There are many who have a problem with even acknowledging that misandry even exists. I could give you a list of examples quite easily.

I think the crux of the problem lies in the fact that men—especially white anglo men—are viewed as the "norm" or the benchmark for all else.

Sure this is the problem. White men are not the norm at all. And certainly not the ideal either!

There are still Nazi today who think Hitler was a hero, the Men's Power movement will have a long play yet.

Someone should write a book about the men's movement:

"All reactionaries are paper tigers". - Mao

Shauk · 05-20-2011, 12:48 AM

any new news on this topic? Today I needed to explain why girls like beiber... this is all I came up with.

Sheepy · 05-20-2011, 07:29 AM

My uncle is a professor of some sort and he actually did big research topic semi recently on men ( In new Zealand ) it's called "Why are a group of mid-life men on the margins of work and family?" and can be read here!

A literature review http://ips.ac.nz/publications/files/a29ff853d65.pdf

@shauk yeah though i see it as 'why can/do girls faint scream and cry over male stars, though males don't feel the same way towards great female stars?

One answer is that in that teenage girl age, the ideal male is the knight -the rescuer who's coming for them, who's going to save them and bring them from their dungeons into the male palace ready for them ( couldn't be bothered filling in the metaphors ) though male teens only see females as things they have got to work for, got to strain over to 'catch.' it's our job to create the palace for the girl and woo her with how amazing our world is...and there is a limit on how excited and filled with joy we can be over doing that.

Ourcrazymodern? · 05-21-2011, 07:19 AM

YouTube - ‪Huey Lewis & The News - Walking On A Thin Line‬&rlm;

Shauk · 05-24-2011, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheepy

My uncle is a professor of some sort and he actually did big research topic semi recently on men ( In new Zealand ) it's called "Why are a group of mid-life men on the margins of work and family?" and can be read here!

A literature review http://ips.ac.nz/publications/files/a29ff853d65.pdf

@shauk yeah though i see it as 'why can/do girls faint scream and cry over male stars, though males don't feel the same way towards great female stars?

One answer is that in that teenage girl age, the ideal male is the knight -the rescuer who's coming for them, who's going to save them and bring them from their dungeons into the male palace ready for them ( couldn't be bothered filling in the metaphors ) though male teens only see females as things they have got to work for, got to strain over to 'catch.' it's our job to create the palace for the girl and woo her with how amazing our world is...and there is a limit on how excited and filled with joy we can be over doing that.

It was less that and more why girls seem to find attraction in the more feminine offerings of the male sector. Bieber has and will be mistaken for a girl again.

06-23-2009, 12:27 PM	#2 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	I think we're going through a transition period with the social construction of the male gender in American society. It's difficult to put into words precisely what I mean, but I will try. In the past, men were raised to believe that they needed to be the breadwinner, and that they could expect to have a wife that would take care of the home and the children. As women have entered the labor force, expectations of men have changed dramatically. Men are not only expected to still bring home some of the bacon, but they are expected to step up when it comes to household chores and parenting, so that their wives don't have to work the second shift. Similarly, this idea extends into mental health issues; men are receiving conflicting messages about what it means to be a man. Do you share your feelings or don't you? Popular media says one thing, self-help books another. This is a huge paradigm shift in what it means to be an American male, in what that identity is. I see a clear difference between men of my father's generation and men of my generation. One positive thing I see is more willingness on the part of men to be active parents. I wonder if others have seen the same phenomenon. One thing Zincenko's piece didn't mention was the fact that the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act almost exclusively puts money towards projects with occupations dominated by men, and that men are the ones who stand to benefit most from the stimulus money being spent. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

06-23-2009, 12:50 PM	#7 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Did I say biologically? Don't be ludicrous. I was referring to the innate biological differences in mood, learning styles, emotional needs, etc. The mental stuff. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

06-23-2009, 01:23 PM	#8 (permalink)
inBOIL I have eaten the slaw	Advocating for the correction of these imbalances is all to often painted as a form of misogyny. To some extent, this is tied up in men's self-perception (not wanting to look weak), and self-interest (not wanting to look like a sexist). But it's also a result of the radical feminist hatred for all things masculine. While this attitude is fairly rare, its disproportionate prominence in our culutral psyche ensures that gender imbalances that harm men will remain for quite a while longer. __________________ And you believe Bush and the liberals and divorced parents and gays and blacks and the Christian right and fossil fuels and Xbox are all to blame, meanwhile you yourselves create an ad where your kid hits you in the head with a baseball and you don't understand the message that the problem is you.

06-23-2009, 03:39 PM	#12 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	As an old friend of mine once said many moons ago, "Equality does not imply identicality..." if that's even a word. Point being, you can have an overarching sense of equality without requiring the sexes to be identical in form and function, seeing as how in many ways we simply are not. That said, I can't say I've though much about about men suffering disproportionately in response to the economic issues we are facing. I will say that I think it's ridiculous to expect to have a major cultural shift, largely brought upon my technological advances, in social gender roles for women without expecting a necessary shift in gender roles for men. Nothing happens in a vacuum. I think a large part of this is related to the avarice of corporate America. Just as technology was supposed to free us up to work less hours...after all, the machines would be carrying the heavy load...right?...it has turned out that we are now tethered to our workforce productivity roles more tightly than ever. Instead of freeing up our time, we reduce the economic bottom line. Similarly, instead of increasing the workforce responsibilities of women and reducing the responsibilities of men...we now simply have homes where both the man and woman, or husband and wife, or husband and husband or wife and wife...both work 40+ hour jobs and strive for professional excellence. At least in the Western world. I can only imagine that we will have to negotiate a trade-off between the necessary roles of maintaining a stable home, which used to the sole responsibility of the female, into a shared responsibility...or we will continue along the path of reduction of lifestyle for people in general. As a side note, I think it's interesting to juxtapose these questions of the social roles of men and women living in a Western-type culture versus the shit that people in developing areas have to live through. Do these things translate to countries with substantially lower standards of living in a meaningful way? I'm not so sure. I can't wrap my head around it. I should probably just delete this post and think about it some more, but I'm not going to. C'est la vie. __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

06-23-2009, 07:55 PM	#14 (permalink)
thespian86 change is hard. Location: the green room.	I learned a very important lesson which was inspired by an episode of 30 Rock. The different sub-catagories we use for humans (race, sex, capability) aren't looking for equality, they are looking for equivalency. __________________ EX: Whats new? ME: I officially love coffee more then you now. EX: uh... ME: So, not much.

06-23-2009, 12:36 PM	#4 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I see this as a transition period into a better way of existing, not a "decline". We're correcting for thousands of years of gender inequality and unhealthy societal problems. I'm pissed that it hasn't been that way since the dawn of civilization. I can understand established gender rolls when we were hunter gathers, but once we had the agricultural revolution we didn't change what needed to be changed. I for one welcome a coequal place in society regardless of gender, and I am hopeful about the destination that finally seems to be in sight. Men are finally going to be okay.

06-23-2009, 12:46 PM	#6 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I didn't say biologically equal. Men aren't going to start to give birth as a sign of their support for gender equality. But we can accept that women can have careers, win bread, and all that jazz, just as men can cook, clean, and raise the kids.

06-23-2009, 01:49 PM	#10 (permalink)
Xerxys Junkie Location: My head.	I don't see where the equalituy argument helps when it goes like this ... to treat women or men differently would be to offer either one more rights than the other. This cannot end well. Men and women are not equal biologically but there are some people who can excel better than some other people in the same field regardless of gender. The fact that there are more women/men in said field is useless, demographics are useless for determining who it is will be allocating resources. We look at the individual that is actually capable of handling such tasks. Equality falls here. i.e. If more men are chosen for a specific task it simply means that more able men than women showed up for the interview. This is the 21st century. That said, snowy has it straight up ... Sorry B_G got nothing to add to the OP ...

06-23-2009, 01:58 PM	#11 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	What about the decline of the American God King? Can Xerxes adapt to changing modern societal norms?

06-23-2009, 08:05 PM	#15 (permalink)
FelixP Insane Location: I'm up they see me I'm down.	I tend not to get involved in issues as complex as this becaue it's too time consuming to put my thoughts into writing (I graduated school already; I'm done with that shit!) and respond to other people's counter-points, but I have noticed this to some degree. I'm a subcontractor (General Contracting). My boss and coworkers are all male. I have NEVER met a female construction worker (although I did hear of ONE). We had a ton of business in early '08. Then the shit hit the fan. People lost money. No one wanted to pay us to fix their houses. I worked less than fifteen days in february and march. We were one of the busiest companies in that time span, so that should give you an idea of how bad off things were in trades. Then the Jeep factory starting laying off "workers". Suddenly there's an influx of know-nothing slackass union communists trying to become tradesmen. They thought they could buy a ladder, a five dollar brush, and badabing, they're a painter. So people hire those douchebags because they're so cheap, meaning us REAL tradesmen don't get work. They're bad at their "job", which makes us all look bad, further damaging the industry. Well, that's enough ranting for one night. __________________ Free will lies not in the ability to craft your own fate, but in not knowing what your fate is. --Me "I have just returned from visting the Marines at the front, and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world." --Douglas MacArthur

06-24-2009, 09:41 AM	#16 (permalink)
girldetective sufferable	At work with only a few minutes, but I will tell you that I believe the gender transition is not over. I got a lot of flack from Jeremy regarding "being a girl", although I am quite self-sufficient, work, and so forth. If he and I had adopted a child, he would have been the house husband and social direction. Me, I would have brought home the vegetarian bacon. With Tango, it was just the opposite. I could not be girly enough. My daughter, she marrying a tran in August. He is the best of both really. __________________ As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata

06-24-2009, 08:27 PM	#17 (permalink)
Martian Young Crumudgeon Location: Canada	An interesting article popped up in my newsfeed just now, which ties into the whole theme of misandry. I thought it appropriate here: BBC NEWS \| UK \| England \| Male workers win equal pay claims BBC News click to show A "landmark" legal decision involving three councils in the north east of England could pave the way for 12,000 men to take forward equal pay claims. Financial settlements had earlier been agreed for women workers paid less than men doing similar work. The Employment Appeal Tribunal has now ruled that 300 other male workers were discriminated against as they then remained on lower pay than the women. They councils involved were Hartlepool, Middlesbrough and South Tyneside. The men, who were working in jobs such as care assistants, caretakers, drivers and leisure attendants, had lodged discrimination claims about bonuses paid to male workers in better paid jobs such as gardeners and refuse collectors. This was at the same time as women in low paid jobs, who were also claiming that the bonuses were discriminatory. 'Piggy back' Whilst the women's case succeeded and they were offered financial settlements, the men were not. This left them in a worse financial situation to the women, as well as the better-paid men. The Employment Appeal Tribunal ruled that the 300 men should have been offered the same back pay as the women. These claims are sometimes called piggy back claims as the men "piggy back" on the successful women's claims. Mr Justice Underhill said: "It would be surprising and unsatisfactory if the [Equal Pay] Act offered no remedy to men in a situation like the present. "The case where men and women do the same job but receive different rates of pay is the paradigm of the kind of situation which the Act was intended to prevent, how would it seem if the roles were reversed and the 'piggyback' claimants were not men but women?" Lawyers involved, from the Cloister Chambers, have described it as a landmark ruling which will have a bearing on many other cases, and could cost councils hundreds of millions of pounds. Yvette Genn from Cloisters said: "This ruling is what thousands of male workers who have not received equal pay up and down the country have been waiting for. "There is no doubt that many of the similar 12,000 cases in the system will now proceed and are likely to be successful." ... So I says to Crompsin the other night, I says, "misandry gets a pass, because nobody buys the white anglo male as a credible victim." The problem is one of labels. __________________ I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

06-25-2009, 07:35 AM	#20 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	I agree that there is no true equality between the genders, and that we have inherent differences. This is not to say we don't have a lot of overlap, however. This is why we see gender-based treatment in psychological and physiological capacities. This is a key part of the issue. Men are falling behind when it comes to these things. Look at the difference in how we approach depression when it comes to men and women. Look at the issues men have with their own health. Many of them don't go to the doctor until something happens, yet there is a whole culture of a holistic health community among women. We have had such a huge push to bring women up to speed regarding their health that there now exists an imbalance. There is so much focus on women, so many programs and institutions. Most of them are justified. It wasn't too long ago that women were treated by doctors as though they were men who could have babies. But look at what's happening. Men are living in the shadow of women's issues, and they are beginning to pay the price. Shauk brings up yet another issue. I've read elsewhere about the declining reproductive health in men. There are a number of cases of dropping sperm counts, and there seems to be much confusion. Why is this not a bigger issue that it is? Vana, I agree that a reactionary men's movement wouldn't be helpful, even though it was for women, but that was a different situation entirely. At the same time, as Martian has brought up, misandry itself is an odd thing. There are many who have a problem with even acknowledging that misandry even exists. I could give you a list of examples quite easily. I think the crux of the problem lies in the fact that men—especially white anglo men—are viewed as the "norm" or the benchmark for all else. This happens in issues of race as well, where "Whiteness" exists only as a benchmark to which all other races are compared. But this is a reason why Whiteness is in crisis in terms of identity. In some ways, manhood has the same problem. Many think men are doing fine...they have higher pay than women, they don't have the same reproductive issues, they have certain privileges based on their gender. So everything must be fine, right? Well, no. It's just how not all white people are fine. Men suffer more than many may let on. Depression, anxiety, victimhood, behavioral problems, education problems—all of these things can afflict men just as they do women. Men are not machines; they are not as strong as you may think. This "legend" or "myth" of manhood should soon give way to what is more tied to reality: manhood is in crisis, and we must start doing something about it. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

05-20-2011, 12:48 AM	#23 (permalink)
Shauk Confused Adult Location: Spokane, WA	any new news on this topic? Today I needed to explain why girls like beiber... this is all I came up with.

05-20-2011, 07:29 AM	#24 (permalink)
Sheepy Tilted Location: Hometown at Great Barrier Island, NZ	My uncle is a professor of some sort and he actually did big research topic semi recently on men ( In new Zealand ) it's called "Why are a group of mid-life men on the margins of work and family?" and can be read here! A literature review http://ips.ac.nz/publications/files/a29ff853d65.pdf @shauk yeah though i see it as 'why can/do girls faint scream and cry over male stars, though males don't feel the same way towards great female stars? One answer is that in that teenage girl age, the ideal male is the knight -the rescuer who's coming for them, who's going to save them and bring them from their dungeons into the male palace ready for them ( couldn't be bothered filling in the metaphors ) though male teens only see females as things they have got to work for, got to strain over to 'catch.' it's our job to create the palace for the girl and woo her with how amazing our world is...and there is a limit on how excited and filled with joy we can be over doing that.