Fair fares? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Halx · 06-17-2009, 05:20 AM

One thing I can never grasp is the concept of constantly changing airline fares. I could be looking for a ticket one hour, find a good price, but decide to think about it, come back an hour later and it will be higher. Then I could come back the next day and it will be lower.

It could make sense for an airline to keep changing their price, but is it FAIR? I can't think of any other industry that does this and I wonder about it. I could be flying to New York and sitting next to someone who paid twice as much as me for the same class seat.. or half. Why does it make sense to everyone but me? Why does nobody take issue with this and try to call for regulation?

The other big scam is service fees, fuel taxes, and other tack-ons. When you shop for a ticket (to anything... flight, concert, play) you always have to deal with these extra fees on top of what you've already determined to be a good price. It is a total scam, I think. I bought a $25 concert ticket and ended up paying $40 because of all the extra crap. Once again - scam, but its the only way to buy it before it sells out. Should it be regulated or should I "vote with my wallet" which essentially means "punish myself while someone else takes my place?"

Baraka_Guru · 06-17-2009, 05:43 AM

The thing to realize about the historical performance of the airline industry as a whole is that it is currently sitting at a net loss. It's in the hole. It's a money-loser.

Fares aren't the only thing that's out of the ordinary about airliners. Also consider the regulations about safety, security, and airspace, etc. These are also things that stand out as a mode of transportation.

The fares aren't consistent (I'm guessing) because air travel itself isn't consistent. At least taxis, public transit, trains, etc., can predict with some accuracy the travel patterns of customers. Airliners I don't think have a good time of doing this, and so their tickets are sold practically like an auction. It's more of a real-time market: supply and demand will dictate the price, and supply and demand is constantly shifting. Airliners are constantly managing their flights and seats in such a way to ensure the fullest possible capacities while doing their best to make money (which, as I've hinted, is damned difficult for them).

Also realize how they're affected by fluctuating fuel prices, as they use a heck of a lot of it.

And realize that jets are only made with government support, and few are ever purchased...merely leased.

There are so many factors in this crazy industry that I'm not at all surprised that ticket prices work the way they do.

Cynthetiq · 06-17-2009, 06:44 AM

One of the reasons is that while I'm deciding on that cheap fare, I'm holding that seat or pair of seats for 24 hours. This means that if I decide to not book, the seats become available for someone else the next day. Also, there are a finite amount of cheap seats, frequent flier seats, and then the rest of the variable pricing of seats.

If the seats aren't being held, I experience it just like you.

Re: paying 1/2 or double for the seat next to you, it depends on the timing. If that person is trying to get to Point B 30 minutes before the flight, the seat has more value to him and he's willing to pay more for that seat.

It seems like a simplistic notion that one could use an analogy to bus since there is transportation mode, stations, timetables, drivers, mechanics, etc. It seems very similar, but the cost of planes, runway fees, airport gate fees, all are much more complex.

Halx · 06-17-2009, 07:08 AM

The responses so far don't totally match up in their explanation and justification. If the operating costs of airline flights are unpredictable, how would selling tickets for different prices help that at all? It sounds like it complicates things more than it smooths them out.

I can live with missing out on a flight because the seats are filled, but having the airline dangling the last few seats in front of me at significantly higher prices is extortion. Of course they'll find someone to pay, but that's not my point. My point is that all seats in a particular section are created equal, just like at a concert or play. If I pay $30 more for my seat than the guy next to me, I want $30 more in value during my flight.

ratbastid · 06-17-2009, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

If I pay $30 more for my seat than the guy next to me, I want $30 more in value during my flight.

So.... a lap dance?

Cynthetiq · 06-17-2009, 07:22 AM

Seats in each section are not equal. In fact, nothing shows that more than ratings from business class travelers. On some business class sections there is 1 single seat in the middle row, I think it's 2D in first class.

Airline Seating Charts - Best Airplane Seats - SeatGuru also shows that seats near the rear and mid-galley or lavatory isn't as desirable as a seat as bulkheads or exit rows.

I hate sitting next to the galley. I hate sitting in the rear of the plane. I like to sit in rows 13-25, as far as I can from the mid galley if possible. Last trip to LA as I was boarding, I was turning around and I hit a crate and dropped it on the flight attendant's head who was stooped in the galley. Tall people want the bulkheads, I don't care if I get them or not, but if they are available, we'll get them because it's a little more room. I'm willing to pay extra to not sit in the rear.

And that's not the case for concerts or plays, maybe in the upper sections, but everyone knows that center seats are better than left or right wing, closer better than farther. I've sat in one of those balcony seats for Spamalot, I couldn't see 1/3 of the play on the stage left. But I was really close to the actors! I paid more for those seats than someone did for balcony, but less than orchestra.

http://www.microsoft.com/smallbusine...stseatonaplane

Quote:

3. Avoid the masses. The most uncomfortable seats, for a variety of reasons, are in the very back of the plane. Why? That's normally where the galley is. The restrooms are there, too. There's a lot of engine noise. In old days, that's where the smokers were. I'll never forget the flight from New York to Vienna on an eastern European airline many years ago when the bathrooms overflowed, the air conditioning stopped working, and just about everyone in the "smoking" section was lighting up. No exaggeration: It was the flight from hell. Today, conditions are slightly better. Smoking isn't allowed, but the back of the plane can still be brutal. Occasionally, minimum-security convicts are transported in the back of the plane (they're cuffed, of course). Some reservationists also like to put families with kids toward the rear of the plane. You get the idea. Avoid the back. Tip: If, for some reason, you are stuck in the back, don't panic. The moment the cabin door closes, you can move within your class of service. I would recommend heading to the front of the plane as quickly as possible. But remember to heed the instructions of your flight attendants. If the "fasten seatbelts" sign is illuminated, stay

put until you're cleared to move about the cabin.

Nisses · 06-17-2009, 07:26 AM

There's only 2 responses so far, take a breath

<--edit: that was before Rat & Cynthetiq beat me to it...

At the same time, to use your bus-analogy: If I buy my bus-tickets beforehand I pay 1e20 for a ticket, if I pay it on the bus, it costs me 1e60. If I get a pass, it costs me .80c
And get this, all for the same kind of seat!

Saying you expect 30e more in value if you payed 30e more, doesn't even fly in case of a bus, why would it for a plane?

At the last moment, the availability of free seats goes down, and so the price tends to go up.

ASU2003 · 06-17-2009, 04:24 PM

It is pure unregulated capitalism. They are allowed to sell the seat for the highest amount they can get, and their stockholders want this.

Now, SouthWest is a little different, but they are a different airline. If you look up Qantas flights in Australia, you will find examples of what you want probably. I'm not sure how they do things down there, but you pay a set price to get someplace and it's not different on that day (other days may be different)

greytone · 06-17-2009, 05:50 PM

Think of it like a cruise ship cabin. Those prices go up and down based on demand also. Both the plane and the ship are going to leave on schedule (or not) but once they leave they are going to have a fairly fixed cost and need to maximize their revenue before departure.

I think a little standardization would actually lower total cost and make customers happy and more loyal. Southwest Airlines has shown this to be true.

I don't mind the fact that supply and demand affect price. I don't mind that I can choose to pay more or less to have different rules on reserving seats or changing plans. It drives me nuts that a one way trip costs 2-3 times as much as a roundtrip ticket that includes that leg. By not returning I am giving the airline more opportunity to sell the seat. Why not just charge for the roundtrip and not have some silly rule I can not go one way and just "miss the flight" on the return home.

It really made me nuts when I checked on a flight several times over 2 weeks but did not purchase because I was trying to get friends to commit on the times for the trip. When I was ready to finally buy the tickets I did another search and the tickets were the same price they had been. I selected the tickets and entered all my information. Then when I clicked the purchase button the tickets suddenly were $200 more. That seemed to be a trick on the website and I am sure that was not fair.

Crack · 06-17-2009, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

So.... a lap dance?

you need to start an airline

06-17-2009, 05:20 AM	#1 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Fair fares? One thing I can never grasp is the concept of constantly changing airline fares. I could be looking for a ticket one hour, find a good price, but decide to think about it, come back an hour later and it will be higher. Then I could come back the next day and it will be lower. It could make sense for an airline to keep changing their price, but is it FAIR? I can't think of any other industry that does this and I wonder about it. I could be flying to New York and sitting next to someone who paid twice as much as me for the same class seat.. or half. Why does it make sense to everyone but me? Why does nobody take issue with this and try to call for regulation? The other big scam is service fees, fuel taxes, and other tack-ons. When you shop for a ticket (to anything... flight, concert, play) you always have to deal with these extra fees on top of what you've already determined to be a good price. It is a total scam, I think. I bought a $25 concert ticket and ended up paying $40 because of all the extra crap. Once again - scam, but its the only way to buy it before it sells out. Should it be regulated or should I "vote with my wallet" which essentially means "punish myself while someone else takes my place?" __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

06-17-2009, 05:43 AM	#2 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	The thing to realize about the historical performance of the airline industry as a whole is that it is currently sitting at a net loss. It's in the hole. It's a money-loser. Fares aren't the only thing that's out of the ordinary about airliners. Also consider the regulations about safety, security, and airspace, etc. These are also things that stand out as a mode of transportation. The fares aren't consistent (I'm guessing) because air travel itself isn't consistent. At least taxis, public transit, trains, etc., can predict with some accuracy the travel patterns of customers. Airliners I don't think have a good time of doing this, and so their tickets are sold practically like an auction. It's more of a real-time market: supply and demand will dictate the price, and supply and demand is constantly shifting. Airliners are constantly managing their flights and seats in such a way to ensure the fullest possible capacities while doing their best to make money (which, as I've hinted, is damned difficult for them). Also realize how they're affected by fluctuating fuel prices, as they use a heck of a lot of it. And realize that jets are only made with government support, and few are ever purchased...merely leased. There are so many factors in this crazy industry that I'm not at all surprised that ticket prices work the way they do. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

06-17-2009, 06:44 AM	#3 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	One of the reasons is that while I'm deciding on that cheap fare, I'm holding that seat or pair of seats for 24 hours. This means that if I decide to not book, the seats become available for someone else the next day. Also, there are a finite amount of cheap seats, frequent flier seats, and then the rest of the variable pricing of seats. If the seats aren't being held, I experience it just like you. Re: paying 1/2 or double for the seat next to you, it depends on the timing. If that person is trying to get to Point B 30 minutes before the flight, the seat has more value to him and he's willing to pay more for that seat. It seems like a simplistic notion that one could use an analogy to bus since there is transportation mode, stations, timetables, drivers, mechanics, etc. It seems very similar, but the cost of planes, runway fees, airport gate fees, all are much more complex. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

06-17-2009, 07:08 AM	#4 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	The responses so far don't totally match up in their explanation and justification. If the operating costs of airline flights are unpredictable, how would selling tickets for different prices help that at all? It sounds like it complicates things more than it smooths them out. I can live with missing out on a flight because the seats are filled, but having the airline dangling the last few seats in front of me at significantly higher prices is extortion. Of course they'll find someone to pay, but that's not my point. My point is that all seats in a particular section are created equal, just like at a concert or play. If I pay $30 more for my seat than the guy next to me, I want $30 more in value during my flight. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

06-17-2009, 07:26 AM	#7 (permalink)
Nisses Shade Location: Belgium	There's only 2 responses so far, take a breath <--edit: that was before Rat & Cynthetiq beat me to it... At the same time, to use your bus-analogy: If I buy my bus-tickets beforehand I pay 1e20 for a ticket, if I pay it on the bus, it costs me 1e60. If I get a pass, it costs me .80c And get this, all for the same kind of seat! Saying you expect 30e more in value if you payed 30e more, doesn't even fly in case of a bus, why would it for a plane? At the last moment, the availability of free seats goes down, and so the price tends to go up. __________________ Moderation should be moderately moderated.

06-17-2009, 04:24 PM	#8 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	It is pure unregulated capitalism. They are allowed to sell the seat for the highest amount they can get, and their stockholders want this. Now, SouthWest is a little different, but they are a different airline. If you look up Qantas flights in Australia, you will find examples of what you want probably. I'm not sure how they do things down there, but you pay a set price to get someplace and it's not different on that day (other days may be different)

06-17-2009, 05:50 PM	#9 (permalink)
greytone Junkie	Think of it like a cruise ship cabin. Those prices go up and down based on demand also. Both the plane and the ship are going to leave on schedule (or not) but once they leave they are going to have a fairly fixed cost and need to maximize their revenue before departure. I think a little standardization would actually lower total cost and make customers happy and more loyal. Southwest Airlines has shown this to be true. I don't mind the fact that supply and demand affect price. I don't mind that I can choose to pay more or less to have different rules on reserving seats or changing plans. It drives me nuts that a one way trip costs 2-3 times as much as a roundtrip ticket that includes that leg. By not returning I am giving the airline more opportunity to sell the seat. Why not just charge for the roundtrip and not have some silly rule I can not go one way and just "miss the flight" on the return home. It really made me nuts when I checked on a flight several times over 2 weeks but did not purchase because I was trying to get friends to commit on the times for the trip. When I was ready to finally buy the tickets I did another search and the tickets were the same price they had been. I selected the tickets and entered all my information. Then when I clicked the purchase button the tickets suddenly were $200 more. That seemed to be a trick on the website and I am sure that was not fair. __________________ I was there to see beautiful naked women. So was everybody else. It's a common failing. Robert A Heinlein in "They Do It With Mirrors" Last edited by greytone; 06-17-2009 at 05:54 PM..