Waterboarding for Charity - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Cynthetiq · 04-29-2009, 07:38 AM

YouTube - Sean Hannity Offers To Be Waterboarded For Charity - 04/23/09

YouTube - Keith Olbermann: $$ To Charity For Sean Hannity's Waterboarding

Quote:

View: Olbermann pressing on Hannity's waterboard offer
Source: Sfgate
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Olbermann pressing on Hannity's waterboard offer
Olbermann pressing on Hannity's waterboard offer

By DAVID BAUDER, AP Television Writer

Wednesday, April 29, 2009
Keith Olbermann.

(04-29) 03:36 PDT NEW YORK, (AP) --

The debate over torture is getting personal for two of cable TV's prime-time hosts.

After Fox News Channel's Sean Hannity made a seemingly impromptu offer last week to undergo waterboarding as a benefit for charity, MSNBC's Keith Olbermann leapt at it. He offered $1,000 to the families of U.S. troops for every second Hannity withstood the technique.

Olbermann repeated the offer on Monday's show and said in an interview Tuesday that he's heard no response. He said he'll continue to pursue it.

"I don't think he has the courage to even respond to this — let alone do it," Olbermann said.

Fox News Channel representatives did not respond to requests for comment.

The two men are on opposite poles of a debate that has preoccupied the worlds of talk TV and radio. Hannity says waterboarding is a fair and necessary interrogation technique for suspected terrorists; Olbermann calls it torture, says it's ineffective and should not be done by Americans.

Charles Grodin was challenging Hannity on the issue on Fox last week, and asked whether he would consent to be waterboarded.

"Sure," Hannity said. "I'll do it for charity ... I'll do it for the troops' families."

It wasn't exactly clear how serious the conversation was, since Grodin joked, "Are you busy on Sunday?" and Hannity laughed.

"I'll let you do it," Hannity said.

"I wouldn't do it," Grodin said. "I'll hand you a towel when you come out of the shower."

Olbermann's offer was quick. Besides the $1,000 per second, Olbermann said he'd double it if Hannity acknowledges he feared for his life and admits that waterboarding is torture.

"The idea of putting somebody in a position they have volunteered for, for charity, to respond to their own unsupportable claims, is in many ways priceless," Olbermann said.

Olbermann, who hasn't missed any chance to criticize his ideological enemies at Fox, concedes TV competition plays a part in his offer. But he said it was sincere, because he believes Hannity has had a damaging role in the debate.

"If you expose people to reality, even with someone who is denying reality, that can have a powerful and important impact," he said.

Would you do it? Would you put up money towards the charity? Would you watch an event ala the dunk the monkey type event at carnivals and street fairs? Pay per view to raise more money for the charity? Comments on the Olbermann/Hannity offer?

I'd not do it. I've watched a few of the videos around about it, and don't really understand the dynamics of the sensations. I'm not inclined to watch it again even with any kind of "star" laying on the board.

I'd just as soon donate the money to the charity without witnessing the event.

Randerolf · 04-29-2009, 07:56 AM

Sure, I'd like to see it just because it's Hannity and he opened himself up for it so flippantly.

If you want to see what the fuss is about, here's a story and video on Vanity Fair about Christopher Hitchens who was actually water boarded.

Frankly, I'd like to see the event go down just to get the money to military families --blowhards be damned.

MSD · 04-29-2009, 09:25 AM

Broadcast it live and see how many people still think it isn't torture.

Xerxys · 04-29-2009, 10:10 AM

I'd do it, i'd give the money just so I can prove a point. That it is, in fact torture. Now, do I want them to stop doing it? That's another question. I'll go with no, they can continue waterboarding.

Wrexify · 04-29-2009, 10:32 AM

I'm hoping this does play out, just because Hannity's comments were so naive. If he goes through with it and still maintains his nonchalant attitude toward torture, I'll eat my hat.

World's King · 04-29-2009, 10:36 AM

He won't do it.

He'll bitch that he wasn't able to do it because of insurance reason. When in fact he just a frightened little boy trapped in a fat pasty white man's body.

Willravel · 04-29-2009, 10:40 AM

If I were to waterboard myself for charity, I'd want a lot more than $1000 a second and I'd want the money to go to the ACLU.

Baraka_Guru · 04-29-2009, 10:46 AM

I think this is disgusting.

This further trivializes torture—cruel and unusual punishment in general. Hannity has the choice as to whether he is subjected to this. He gets to agree to the terms. He gets a social reward for doing it. In the worst-case scenario he can laugh the whole thing off and it won't happen.

This is more of the same in America: a morally bankrupt sideshow.

dlish · 04-29-2009, 10:49 AM

if i was offered to do it for charity id do it. heck im tempted to get someone to try it just to see what it feels like. i may as well help those that are more needy along the way

im not belittleing the enormity of what this whole scenario entails. i do think its torture, but for a free man who knows that im not going to be subjected to freezing temperatures and sleepless nights with strobe lights after it, i can go into it knowing that im a free man afterwards. the guys at gitmo dont have that luxury. with the mind games, its definately torture

Strange Famous · 04-29-2009, 10:58 AM

For 1000 sheets a second I'd do a few minutes.

But of course its torture. If you are going to do it to people you need to have the courage to admit to yourself what it is youre doing. And I think most experience shows that torture is often a hopeless method of gathering information - because it just makes people tell you what they think you want or anything to sop the torture.

America and the UK are hardly the worst nations for employing these types of techniques against people and other supoerpowers such as China have committed far greater human rights abuses: but you cant really fight under the banner of freedom and liberation when you must abandon your ideals to fight for the things you want to defend. (not that I call the UK a superpower of course, not since WWII have we been a great power)

ratbastid · 04-29-2009, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

For 1000 sheets a second I'd do a few minutes.

No you wouldn't. Khalid Sheik Mohammad profoundly impressed his captors by going 40 seconds. Most videos I've seen of people subjecting themselves to waterboarding have them dropping the "safety signal" within eight or ten seconds. You know, the thing put in their hand that they're told to drop only if they experience unbearable suffering?

What I've seen and read about waterboarding indicates that your knowledge of your safety has zero to do with it. The fact you'll be sleeping in a nice warm bed later instead of a cold cell has absolutely nothing to do with the primal "I'm dying" response that is produced in your body and brain by waterboarding.

A prominent right-wing member of the Straight Dope forum waterboarded himself as an experiment. I'll give you the link to his whole thing in a sec, but the most compelling part of his story reads:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scylla

So, is it torture?

I'll put it this way. If I had the choice of being waterboarded by a third party or having my fingers smashed one at a time by a sledgehammer, I'd take the fingers, no question..

It's horrible, terrible, inhuman torture. I can hardly imagine worse. I'd prefer permanent damage and disability to experiencing it again. I'd give up anything, say anything, do anything.

I waterboard! - Straight Dope Message Board

Plan9 · 04-29-2009, 11:21 AM

Deja what? I could swear this topic was mentioned before in a previous thread.

...

Sean Hannity. Yeah, waterboarding is far too cushy for that cocky bastard.

Let's do the CIA-in-the-'70s bamboo-slivers-under-the-fingernails-and-toenails thing.

Make it easier for him to scream the whole time. What an asshole.

The living hell of torture is a joke for these talking heads. Makes me sick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

This further trivializes torture—cruel and unusual punishment in general. Hannity has the choice as to whether he is subjected to this. He gets to agree to the terms. He gets a social reward for doing it. In the worst-case scenario he can laugh the whole thing off and it won't happen.

Yeah, hold my puke bag for me, bro?

Rekna · 04-29-2009, 11:38 AM

They should add this as a regular even on fear factor (if that show is still on). It would be interesting to see if peoples attitudes changed twoard it.

SabrinaFair · 04-29-2009, 04:37 PM

I agree, I think he'll probably bitch out at the last minute.

The thing that gets me about waterboarding is that the fear of drowning is a very primal, instinctual fear. I've had moments just in the swimming pool where I started panicking that I wouldn't reach the surface in time. (mostly from childhood) Anyone who doesn't think subjecting someone to this is torture doesn't understand the definition of torture.

dlish · 04-29-2009, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SabrinaFair

I agree, I think he'll probably bitch out at the last minute.

The thing that gets me about waterboarding is that the fear of drowning is a very primal, instinctual fear. I've had moments just in the swimming pool where I started panicking that I wouldn't reach the surface in time. (mostly from childhood) Anyone who doesn't think subjecting someone to this is torture doesn't understand the definition of torture.

ive related the story here earlier on other occasions, but i drowned as a kid and was saved by my dad.

yes the fear of drowining is primal. you need to experience it to know what it feels like

boink · 04-29-2009, 09:39 PM

I'd rather see him standing naked on a stool with a hood on and having his balls shocked. now that'd make some money.

Strange Famous · 04-29-2009, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

No you wouldn't. Khalid Sheik Mohammad profoundly impressed his captors by going 40 seconds. Most videos I've seen of people subjecting themselves to waterboarding have them dropping the "safety signal" within eight or ten seconds. You know, the thing put in their hand that they're told to drop only if they experience unbearable suffering?

What I've seen and read about waterboarding indicates that your knowledge of your safety has zero to do with it. The fact you'll be sleeping in a nice warm bed later instead of a cold cell has absolutely nothing to do with the primal "I'm dying" response that is produced in your body and brain by waterboarding.

A prominent right-wing member of the Straight Dope forum waterboarded himself as an experiment. I'll give you the link to his whole thing in a sec, but the most compelling part of his story reads:

I waterboard! - Straight Dope Message Board

Well, obviously its a lot easier to say you'd do it than to do it - which is the point everyone is raising. But 40 seconds for $40,000 would be a lot of money for me.

As unpleasant and horrible as I could imagine it would be, I think that the guy saying he'd rather have his fingers smashed with a hammer is plain wrong, or being misleading. A sensation of torture CANNOT be as bad as physical damage and disability. No one would prefer to never be able to use their hand for 40 years rather than 40 seconds of any kind of agony or horror if it ended and there was no more.

dlish · 04-30-2009, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

Well, obviously its a lot easier to say you'd do it than to do it - which is the point everyone is raising. But 40 seconds for $40,000 would be a lot of money for me.

As unpleasant and horrible as I could imagine it would be, I think that the guy saying he'd rather have his fingers smashed with a hammer is plain wrong, or being misleading. A sensation of torture CANNOT be as bad as physical damage and disability. No one would prefer to never be able to use their hand for 40 years rather than 40 seconds of any kind of agony or horror if it ended and there was no more.

its the scars you dont see that hurt the most. mental torture CANNOT be taken lightly.

try not being able to use your brain to its full capacity..i'd rather lose a finger

ratbastid · 04-30-2009, 03:44 AM

$40k for 40 seconds work would be good pay for anybody, SF. My point is, all your logic and reason don't mean a damn thing when your body is experiencing the physical sensation of drowning. At that moment, the thought "Every second I hold out is worth $1000" is WAY less important than "I can't breathe".

Rekna · 04-30-2009, 06:19 AM

Like I said put this on fear factor and we will get an idea how long people can actually last. I'm amazed they haven't put this on fear factor yet (maybe they don't want to torture their contestants).

From everything i've seen full waterboarding can emotionally scar you for years within a few seconds. Every video i've seen where the person had an option to quit they were done in about 3-4 seconds.

spectre · 04-30-2009, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

Well, obviously its a lot easier to say you'd do it than to do it - which is the point everyone is raising. But 40 seconds for $40,000 would be a lot of money for me.

As unpleasant and horrible as I could imagine it would be, I think that the guy saying he'd rather have his fingers smashed with a hammer is plain wrong, or being misleading. A sensation of torture CANNOT be as bad as physical damage and disability. No one would prefer to never be able to use their hand for 40 years rather than 40 seconds of any kind of agony or horror if it ended and there was no more.

That line of reasoning works well when it's entirely academic. I know it's not quite the same, but I've nearly drowned before, I'll take a broken hand to experiencing that again any day.

Pain, even extreme pain, is completely different than having the overwhelming feeling that you're going to die.

MSD · 05-01-2009, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

Well, obviously its a lot easier to say you'd do it than to do it - which is the point everyone is raising. But 40 seconds for $40,000 would be a lot of money for me.

As unpleasant and horrible as I could imagine it would be, I think that the guy saying he'd rather have his fingers smashed with a hammer is plain wrong, or being misleading. A sensation of torture CANNOT be as bad as physical damage and disability. No one would prefer to never be able to use their hand for 40 years rather than 40 seconds of any kind of agony or horror if it ended and there was no more.

Have you ever come close to drowning? To the point that you actually inhaled water and couldn't get air? If you haven't experienced it, there's no way to imagine it.

I slipped under and inhaled water during swimming lessons almost 20 years ago, and I still have nightmares about it from time to time. A broken bone is nothing compared to that feeling, because your brain loses capacity for rational thought and all you can do is flail your arms to try to get to the surface and understand that you're about to die.

Baraka_Guru · 05-01-2009, 08:22 AM

I read somewhere that some victims break their own bones trying to resist the sensation. I think that's quite telling. Then there's the permanent lung and brain damage.

You couldn't pay me enough. Money comes and goes, but you have one life to live.

04-29-2009, 10:32 AM	#5 (permalink)
Wrexify Crazy Location: Kramerica	I'm hoping this does play out, just because Hannity's comments were so naive. If he goes through with it and still maintains his nonchalant attitude toward torture, I'll eat my hat. __________________ "Nitwit! Oddment! Blubber! Tweak!"

04-29-2009, 10:36 AM	#6 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	He won't do it. He'll bitch that he wasn't able to do it because of insurance reason. When in fact he just a frightened little boy trapped in a fat pasty white man's body. __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

04-29-2009, 10:46 AM	#8 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	I think this is disgusting. This further trivializes torture—cruel and unusual punishment in general. Hannity has the choice as to whether he is subjected to this. He gets to agree to the terms. He gets a social reward for doing it. In the worst-case scenario he can laugh the whole thing off and it won't happen. This is more of the same in America: a morally bankrupt sideshow. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

04-29-2009, 10:49 AM	#9 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	if i was offered to do it for charity id do it. heck im tempted to get someone to try it just to see what it feels like. i may as well help those that are more needy along the way im not belittleing the enormity of what this whole scenario entails. i do think its torture, but for a free man who knows that im not going to be subjected to freezing temperatures and sleepless nights with strobe lights after it, i can go into it knowing that im a free man afterwards. the guys at gitmo dont have that luxury. with the mind games, its definately torture __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

04-29-2009, 10:58 AM	#10 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	For 1000 sheets a second I'd do a few minutes. But of course its torture. If you are going to do it to people you need to have the courage to admit to yourself what it is youre doing. And I think most experience shows that torture is often a hopeless method of gathering information - because it just makes people tell you what they think you want or anything to sop the torture. America and the UK are hardly the worst nations for employing these types of techniques against people and other supoerpowers such as China have committed far greater human rights abuses: but you cant really fight under the banner of freedom and liberation when you must abandon your ideals to fight for the things you want to defend. (not that I call the UK a superpower of course, not since WWII have we been a great power) __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

04-29-2009, 07:56 AM	#2 (permalink)
Randerolf Fireball Location: ~	Sure, I'd like to see it just because it's Hannity and he opened himself up for it so flippantly. If you want to see what the fuss is about, here's a story and video on Vanity Fair about Christopher Hitchens who was actually water boarded. Frankly, I'd like to see the event go down just to get the money to military families --blowhards be damned.

04-29-2009, 09:25 AM	#3 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	Broadcast it live and see how many people still think it isn't torture.

04-29-2009, 10:10 AM	#4 (permalink)
Xerxys Junkie Location: My head.	I'd do it, i'd give the money just so I can prove a point. That it is, in fact torture. Now, do I want them to stop doing it? That's another question. I'll go with no, they can continue waterboarding.

04-29-2009, 10:40 AM	#7 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	If I were to waterboard myself for charity, I'd want a lot more than $1000 a second and I'd want the money to go to the ACLU.

04-29-2009, 11:38 AM	#13 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	They should add this as a regular even on fear factor (if that show is still on). It would be interesting to see if peoples attitudes changed twoard it.

04-29-2009, 04:37 PM	#14 (permalink)
SabrinaFair Junkie Location: Louisville, KY	I agree, I think he'll probably bitch out at the last minute. The thing that gets me about waterboarding is that the fear of drowning is a very primal, instinctual fear. I've had moments just in the swimming pool where I started panicking that I wouldn't reach the surface in time. (mostly from childhood) Anyone who doesn't think subjecting someone to this is torture doesn't understand the definition of torture. __________________ "With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy." -Desiderata

04-29-2009, 09:39 PM	#16 (permalink)
boink Addict Location: Seattle	I'd rather see him standing naked on a stool with a hood on and having his balls shocked. now that'd make some money. __________________ when you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.

04-30-2009, 03:44 AM	#19 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	$40k for 40 seconds work would be good pay for anybody, SF. My point is, all your logic and reason don't mean a damn thing when your body is experiencing the physical sensation of drowning. At that moment, the thought "Every second I hold out is worth $1000" is WAY less important than "I can't breathe".

04-30-2009, 06:19 AM	#20 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	Like I said put this on fear factor and we will get an idea how long people can actually last. I'm amazed they haven't put this on fear factor yet (maybe they don't want to torture their contestants). From everything i've seen full waterboarding can emotionally scar you for years within a few seconds. Every video i've seen where the person had an option to quit they were done in about 3-4 seconds.

05-01-2009, 08:22 AM	#23 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	I read somewhere that some victims break their own bones trying to resist the sensation. I think that's quite telling. Then there's the permanent lung and brain damage. You couldn't pay me enough. Money comes and goes, but you have one life to live. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot