Dammitall

Since Snowy mentioned it earlier in the thread, I thought I'd post this video demonstrating the mechanics of the proposed Idaho Stop legislation that apparently failed in Oregon.


Judging from the post history on the thread, this won't do anything to win over the hearts of those who feel bikes don't belong on roads without lanes dedicated to their use, but as a cyclist that values my forward momentum, I feel this is a step in the right direction.

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If one million people replaced a two mile car trip once a week with a bike ride, carbon dioxide emissions would be reduced by 50,000 tons per year. If one out of ten car commuters switched to a bike, carbon dioxide emissions would be reduced by 25.4 million tons per year. [2milechallenge.com]

Hyacinthe

Most of the time I have no problem whatsoever with cyclists - I have friends and family that cycle absolutely everywhere - my parents both ride over 6km to work everyday for example.

When don't I respect cyclists? When they do dangerous things that put themselves, me and whoever is in the car with me at risk of an accident - when they are riding down the centre of a lane at under 30km, when they decide it's perfectly ok to ride across the road without checking for traffic, when they don't wear lights or reflective clothing of any kind and I'm meant to use my psychic powers to see them at night, when they ride to the very front of the lane while we're stopped at lights not realising that the entire reason motocycle riders do that is because they have a faster acceleration then most cars which the majority of cyclists do not.

Take everything I hate about pedestrians while I'm driving and add the belief that they belong on the road and you get about 90% of cyclists it seems. The ones that tell me when they're turning (indicate), wear protective gear and obey road rules I have no grudge towards. Unfortunately as seems to be so often the case it's those responsisble cyclists that seem to be in the minority.

I should probably add that the majority of the ity I am living in has specially built bicycle pathways next to almost every major road (not on highways or freeways) this means the path is built out of larger blocks is smooth (as opposed to paving) and 2 or 3 times as wide as a pedestrian footpath - cyclists just decide to use the road anyways.

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wooÐs

Here on my side of town, the cyclists don't respect the drivers. They think just because they're on a bike, stop signs don't apply to them, which last time I checked, they're supposed to abide by these signs just like every other person.

And they insist on riding down roads with heavy traffic when they'd do themselves and everyone else a huge favor by keeping their sport for subdivisions or parks.

Plus I don't like spandex.

squeeeb

there are assclowns on both sides of the story, but the ones in the cars seem to outnumber the cyclists.

i've had people tell me how they hate cyclists on the road and how when they see them they like to drive up close to them and push them off the road. they are so cute when they find out i'm a cyclist who commutes and rides all over. i think they are jealous. they are sitting in traffic while cyclists are whizzing past them, they are in thier car while cyclists are in the fresh air. they are spending money on gas, etc etc.

i could never figure out why me on a bicycle is a threat to a dude in a huge truck, enough so he gets close to me, revs his engine, call me faggot, etc. and i don't even wear lycra shorts or a cycling jersey.

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onward to mayhem!

Cynthetiq

here are my reasons:




Hunter College Bicycle Study in NYC

The other day I was on the sidewalk walking down the street when a bicyclist on the SIDEWALK actually was MAD that I was in their way. The other day I was crossing with the light, and a bicyclist shouted at me because they were running the light and wanted to alert me that they were going to cross in front of me.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

squeeeb

that guy is an assclown who needs to be punched. it bothers me when i see adults on bicycles on the sidewalk. adults riding a bicycle on the sidewalk are as ignorant as the ones in the cars who get angry that a cyclist is on "their" road. grrrrr, humans make me so angry sometimes.

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onward to mayhem!

filtherton

Just my opinion, but these aren't very reasonable reasons to not respect bicyclists.

First of all, if you are going to base your level of respect for an entire mode of transportation based on operator adherence to traffic laws, you wouldn't respect anyone.

It has been my personal experience that everyone, cyclists, drivers and pedestrians routinely violate traffic laws. And why wouldn't they? The important criteria is risk (consequences x probability of getting caught/injured)- it is generally no more risky for a cyclist to run a red light than it is for a pedestrian to jaywalk or for an automobile to exceed the posted speed limit by 5-15 mph.

These routine violations of traffic law only become an issue when they are done carelessly. Carelessness is a human attribute, it isn't the sole domain of the cyclist. I think that most people who attribute their disdain for cyclists to some sort of chaste notion traffic law conformity are full of shit.

Second, the act of basing your respect for individuals on general statistics is a symptom of a lazy mind. I mean, it's one thing to use statistical descriptions of how people behave to form public policy. It's another to use those same descriptions to preemptively dismiss people you've never even met.

Cynthetiq

It's not as simple as that filth. It's just a matter of expectation. I expect cars and taxis to act a particular way in Manhattan. I know that taxis will cross 3 lanes of traffic to catch a fare. I know that cars will make left turns from the right lane in heavily trafficked area.

If I'm crossing the ONE way street I'm not expecting ANY moving traffic to be coming at me from a different direction than the ONE way that all the vehicles are coming from. I can't tell you how many times I've been almost hit or yelled at to "Watch it!" from a biker going down the ONE way street from the wrong direction. Apparently according to your posts, I'm the asshole for doing the normal codified behavior, and the deviating behavior is the one that's in the right.

So this group is trying to do something about it.

for the benefit of those others to know what the laws are...



---------- Post added at 12:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 AM ----------

re: the rolling stops, well cars are most efficient in the same manner and for the same reasons. Why wouldn't you give them the same kind of pass?

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

filtherton

Right, but if this is happening enough to justify your ire, then perhaps you ought to reevaluate your expectations, because they are clearly inadequate.

And if you think I think you're the asshole for only looking one way when you cross a one way street, then you've misread me. I realize that cyclists can be assholes. What I've also been trying to point out is that being an asshole is a human property, not a cyclist property, and so making the distinction between cyclists and drivers with respect to assholish behavior is silly.

The chance that someone is an asshole increases dramatically if that person criticizes cyclists for not obeying traffic laws while s/he routinely disobeys traffic laws. Do you ever jaywalk? As far as I can tell, 99.999999% of all drivers who criticize cyclists for not obeying traffic laws fall into this category.

But I appreciate the fact that you've brought up what this driver/cyclist conflict is really about, which is that drivers and cyclists tend to have differing expectations for how cyclists should behave.

I predict that if expectations were to become more realistic, and if folks on either side stopped hiding behind self righteous generalizations, that the problem would largely cease to exist.

I just want to note the irony in the fact that the article quotes a pedestrian as an authority on predictable behavior. I don't know how many times I've had to swerve to avoid oblivious pedestrians. Even so, I would never say that I don't respect pedestrians as a group.

From what you said above it seemed to me that you were of the mind that breaking the law is okay, as long as you personally aren't surprised by it. Maybe you should have listed your expectations?

It depends on what you mean by efficiency. Cyclists actually produce the energy used to propel their bicycles. Drivers don't. In terms of personal energy expenditure, momentum represents a much larger personal energy expenditure when one is on a bicycle than when one is driving a car.

Cynthetiq

I guess I need to update my sig again to include drivers, pedestrians, and bicyclists.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Baraka_Guru

Do it.

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filtherton

Cyn,

cheers to that.

Dammitall

The law is the law, but in many cases car drivers are giving themselves that pass already. From something I saw today:

Source: Why do they do that? Traffic lights and stop signs

__________________
If one million people replaced a two mile car trip once a week with a bike ride, carbon dioxide emissions would be reduced by 50,000 tons per year. If one out of ten car commuters switched to a bike, carbon dioxide emissions would be reduced by 25.4 million tons per year. [2milechallenge.com]

Cynthetiq

No they are not giving themselves that pass. They are taking it. I'm referring specifically to your video where they are saying that it will be legal for bikers to roll through stops. If it's good for them, why not also for cars for the same "efficiency" reasons. Hypermilers would love it.

The difference is that I see and know of citations being handed out for "California stops" as they were called back home, whereas I do not see bikers ever getting any kind of citations. The only time I have seen bikers in NYC get any citations have been for the Critical Mass rides.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

filtherton

In Minneapolis, unless there is something egregious about a rolling stop, you'd be hard pressed to get a ticket regardless of whether you're in a car or on a bike. Such is the nature of an overworked, undersized police department.

That being said, I know people who have been ticketed for rolling stops on bikes and I know of pedestrians who've been ticketed for jaywalking.

vanblah

Visibility is also a factor. On a bike, when I approach a stop at the normal 10-15mph that I usually go (unless I'm stomping, which is rare these days) I can see in nearly any direction for a good distance and determine if I can roll through a stop.

In a car, when I approach a stop at 30-35 mph I don't have the visibility nor do I have the reaction time to safely roll through.

Cars are dangerous things; I don't care how good a drive you think you are. Your reaction time and the stopping time, your visibility is not as good as a bike. I'm not saying that all cyclists are better at these things ... but given proper training for either vehicle the bike is simply safer.

Besides, it's not about your cars efficiency (except from a fuel standpoint, and if that's what you're worried about you should probably ride a bike) ... all the car driver has to do is press on a pedal and get going; this requires almost no effort. From a dead stop a cyclist has to balance the bike and move slowly through an intersection; which can be more dangerous than just rolling through if there are no cars present.

My point of view is that motorists are simply complaining that they have to expend a little more effort in turning that oh-so-difficult steering wheel, or pressing on that gosh-darned gas or break pedal. It takes absolutely no effort to drive a car, it can take some mental acuity, and if most drivers were as good as they say they are they would have no difficulty avoiding pedestrians and cyclists.

But that's just my rant. I ride a bike to work every day. I break the rules and ride off-road as much as possible. Which pisses off the motorists who think I should obey every law they obey, but when I do obey the laws they get pissed off because "I'm in their way." As far as bikes are concerned it's damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't so screw it. I don't purposely pull out in front of cars, I don't purposely try to piss off the drivers--I try to avoid them as much as possible.

Cynthetiq

So then a motorcycle should also be able to roll through stops in the same manner at the same 10-15 mph speed. Visibility is the same especially in states with no helmet laws.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

vanblah

Possibly. However, the question of efficiency still applies. It takes little effort to twist a wrist. The wobbliness still counts though ... motorcycles are harder to control from take off and at lower speeds.

The main difference I see is motorized vs. non-motorized.

theemaan

Originally Posted by vanblah
Visibility is also a factor. On a bike, when I approach a stop at the normal 10-15mph that I usually go (unless I'm stomping, which is rare these days) I can see in nearly any direction for a good distance and determine if I can roll through a stop.

In a car, when I approach a stop at 30-35 mph I don't have the visibility nor do I have the reaction time to safely roll through.

Cars are dangerous things; I don't care how good a drive you think you are. Your reaction time and the stopping time, your visibility is not as good as a bike. I'm not saying that all cyclists are better at these things ... but given proper training for either vehicle the bike is simply safer.

Besides, it's not about your cars efficiency (except from a fuel standpoint, and if that's what you're worried about you should probably ride a bike) ... all the car driver has to do is press on a pedal and get going; this requires almost no effort. From a dead stop a cyclist has to balance the bike and move slowly through an intersection; which can be more dangerous than just rolling through if there are no cars present.

My point of view is that motorists are simply complaining that they have to expend a little more effort in turning that oh-so-difficult steering wheel, or pressing on that gosh-darned gas or break pedal. It takes absolutely no effort to drive a car, it can take some mental acuity, and if most drivers were as good as they say they are they would have no difficulty avoiding pedestrians and cyclists.

But that's just my rant. I ride a bike to work every day. I break the rules and ride off-road as much as possible. Which pisses off the motorists who think I should obey every law they obey, but when I do obey the laws they get pissed off because "I'm in their way." As far as bikes are concerned it's damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't so screw it. I don't purposely pull out in front of cars, I don't purposely try to piss off the drivers--I try to avoid them as much as possible.

To me this is exactly why cars don't play well with bikes. After you pass them they run back past you at red lights and you have to pass them again (often in a narrower place and they have no respect for the "rules of the road". In a perfect world--like Boulder Colorado-- There would be bike lanes and roads everywhere to make life safer and easier for evryone

vanblah

In Memphis the narrowest part of the road is usually at an intersection where they have tried to squeeze in a turn lane. If I am at an intersection like this in the far right lane I usually have a car pull up right next to me. This is dangerous and against the law. You may not pass any vehicle in it's own lane unless there is three or more feet of clearance.

I think we've been over the whole "respect for the rules of the road" argument. There is fault on all sides with regard to this. Cars, motorcycles, bicycles, pedestrians all have people who don't respect the rules of the road. It's not just bicycles.

theemaan

Great points--Its an unfortunate situation that probably can't be resovled--Heres to looking out for the other guy-wether bike or car