Brewmaniac

I read about Iranian woman that was blinded by a stalker who thru acid in her eyes and convinced court to have the same done to her attacker. Do you agree or is this cruel and unusual punishment? I realize in other countries their laws allow this. I wish we would allow such things, such as castration for serial rapist and such. What do you think?

Iranian to be blinded with acid for doing same to woman - CNN.com TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) Iranian to be blinded with acid for doing same to woman-- An Iranian woman, blinded by a jilted stalker who threw acid in her face, has persuaded a court to sentence him to be blinded with acid himself under Islamic law demanding an eye for an eye.

Ameneh Bahrami refused to accept "blood money." She insisted instead that her attacker suffer a fate similar to her own "so people like him would realize they do not have the right to throw acid in girls' faces," she told the Tehran Provincial Court.

Her attacker, a 27-year-old man identified in court papers as Majid, admitted throwing acid in her face in November 2004, blinding and disfiguring her. He said he loved her and insisted she loved him as well.

He has until early this week to appeal the sentence.

Doctors say there is no chance Bahrami will recover her vision, despite repeated operations, including medical care in Spain partially paid for by Iran's reformist former president, Mohammed Khatami, who was in power when the attack took place.

Majid said he was still willing to marry Bahrami, but she ruled out the possibility and urged that he remain locked up.

"I am not willing to get blood money from the defendant, who is still thinking about destroying me and wants to take my eyes out," she told the court. "How could he pretend to be in love? If they let this guy go free, he will definitely kill me."

Bahrami told the court that Majid's mother had repeatedly tried to arrange a marriage between the two after Majid met Bahrami at university.

She rejected the offer, not even sure at first who the suitor was. Her friends told her he was a man who had once harassed her in class, leading to an argument between them.

But he refused to accept her rejection, she said, going to her workplace and threatening her.

Finally, she lied and told him she had married someone else and that "it would be better all around if he would leave [her] alone."

She told the court that she reported the conversation to police, saying he had threatened her with "burning for the rest of my life" -- but they said they could not act until a crime had been committed.

Two days later, on November 2, 2004, as she was walking home from work, she became aware of a man following her. She slowed, then stopped to let him pass.

"When the person came close, I realized that it was Majid," she said. "Everything happened in a second. He was holding a red container in his hand. He looked into my eyes for a second and threw the contents of the red container into my face."

Bahrami knew exactly what was happening, she said.

"At that moment, I saw in my mind the face of two sisters who years ago had the same thing happen to them. I thought, 'Oh, my God -- acid.' "

Passers-by tried to wash the acid off Bahrami, then took her to Labafinejad Hospital.

"They did everything possible for me," she said of the doctors and nurses there.

Then, one day, they asked her to sign papers allowing them to operate on her.

"I said, 'Do you want to take my eyes out?' The doctor cried and left."

They did want to remove her eyes surgically, she learned, for fear they would become infected, potentially leading to a fatal infection of her brain.

But she refused to allow it, both because she was not sure she could handle it psychologically, and because she thought her death would be easier for her family to bear.

"If I had died, my family would probably be sad for a year and mourn my death, and then they would get used to it," she told the court. "But now every day they look at me and see that I am slowly wasting away."

The three-judge panel ruled unanimously on November 26 that Majid should be blinded with acid and forced to pay compensation for the injuries to Bahrami's face, hands and body caused by the acid.

That was what she had demanded earlier in the trial. But she did not ask for his face to be disfigured, as hers was.

"Of course, only blind him and take his eyes, because I cannot behave the way he did and ask for acid to be thrown in his face," she said. "Because that would be [a] savage, barbaric act. Only take away his sight so that his eyes will become like mine. I am not saying this from a selfish motive. This is what society demands."

Attacking women and girls by throwing acid in their faces is sufficiently common in countries such as Bangladesh and Cambodia that groups have been formed to fight it. Human rights organizations have condemned the practice in Afghanistan and Pakistan. It is not clear how often such attacks take place in Iran.

Iran and Saudi Arabia are the only countries that consider eye-gouging to be a legitimate judicial punishment, Human Rights Watch has said.

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Manic_Skafe

It's cruel, barbaric and wrong for reasons too obvious to explain.

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Seaver

It doesn't say, but I'm assuming based on the judgment that this decision was in a religious court. These are not too different than the Medieval trials which were based primarily on religious texts and tradition.

In many Muslim Countries there are both Secular and Religious Courts, sitting side by side. Often the people on trial decide which to go on, generally when it's an obscure ruling it tends to be on the Religious Courts. These are based in large part to the Qur'an and Hadith, very often on very obscure texts.

As far as what is morally right, I'm not morally opposed to it in perticular. The truth of history is the Law of Eye for an Eye was actually a system of restraint. By stipulating what a person may get or take in return, it prevents massive blood-feuds which would otherwise grow quickly out of control. Obviously we have progressed beyond these rules, however it has simply turned to the criminal paying in either money or time to the government as opposed to paying the person he/she committed the crime against.

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Redjake

wow, that seriously conflicts with the self-quote in your signature!

I do not agree with this, as the circumstances differ so much in each situation. Factors such as mental health or evidence or circumstance can skew the situation so much. Unless the person admits to being in good mental health and willingly committing the crime, it's hard to tell what's going on. The problem is, no one is going to admit to that if acid is going to be thrown in their eyes - so you'll never be able to tell if the person deserves the punishment.

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Brewmaniac

I am pointing this out not necessarily because I truly feel an eye for an eye is something I believe in, I don't but more of a gauge of what is fair punishment for heinous crimes(of course every crime must be judged on it's own merits) but it seems in US so many get light sentences for horrible crimes.

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flat5

This guy was a smart fellow who thought this out. He is getting what he deserves, IMO.
An example needs to be set. Marry this monster?

james t kirk

Part of me is horrified and part is like, "good, he deserves it the bastard"

We read so much about muslim cultures that kill a woman because she was raped, blaming her, etc. I'm surprised that the courts over there believed her actually and didn't buy into the idea that somehow she made him do it.

Maybe he should be given a choice, the acid bath, or life in prison in an Iranian prison (where life means the rest of your life.)

As far as castrating rapists goes, well, no, I don't agree with that one. You could say that he should be raped up the ass by a guy who starred in Monster Dicks 54 and having everything done to him that he did to his victim and I'd be good with that, but chopping off the balls is not a precident you would want to set.

highthief

I'm not sure I would trust any court - let alone an Iranian one - to get the verdict right 100% of the time. What if they make a mistake and a guy gets blinded wrongly?

It's the same as with the death penalty - any punishment that cannot be reversed if it is found that the inital judgment was wrong is inherently the wrong punishment.

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Baraka_Guru

You see, the problem I have with this is that courts are supposed to hand down justice. "Justice," even in a classical sense, aims to maintain equilibrium and harmony within a society. An eye for an eye, especially in a contemporary setting, does little work towards this, and would, in most cases, have the opposite effect. How does continuing a cycle of violence work towards a return to social harmony after a wrongdoing?

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Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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ring

'An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind." - Ghandi

skizziks

I am not saying i agree with it (but the more i think about it, the more i think i agree with it, even though i know i shouldn't), but i can understand how this would be considered "justice." You reap what you sew, you get what you give, do unto others, etc, etc. If he blinded and scarred her, then it seems quite just, quite fair, that he too be blind and scarred. Would you suggest he be reprimanded harshly, taught that his actions were wrong, "rehabilitated" so he could go on with his life and she gets to live blind and scarred? How is that social harmony?
-----Added 15/12/2008 at 05 : 40 : 08-----
and crime will dwindle because no one will be able to see to commit any crimes.

Slims

How is it any less appropriate than locking the guy up at taxpayer expense for an extended period of time?

It's a punishment, and it definately punishes without a whole lot of unnecessary expense in order to be 'nice.'

If he doesn't like the punishment, he shouldn't go around throwing acid in peoples faces.

As far as it's value, I would certainly consider it to be more of a deterrent than a simple prison sentance. Also, it trumps rehabilitation as he isn't very likely to go around doing it to other women after he has his eyes burned out.

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Anormalguy

The polite, educated part of me says an eye for an eye is too harsh, & there must be a better way.

The hunter/gatherer part of me says not only gouge out his eys, but also disfigure him the same way he disfigured her.

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ring

Skizziks... your avatar, what does it mean to you?

I am truly curious to understand,
I am not being sarcastic or intentionally mean.

(please pardon my somewhat off topic slide)

Baraka_Guru

It isn't quite so easy. It seems things were lost in your glossing. The punishment should fit the crime, of course--debt to society, and all that. Before I explain, let me put your thoughts a different way: If we blind and scar the criminal, the victim is still blind and scarred. But now there are two sets of families and friends who must bear the burden of having a loved one who has survived and must live after such a violent experience. This too fails to re-establish harmony, and has only increased suffering. (I will leave out, for the moment, the wider practical and ethical concerns in regard to a mode of social/governmental punishment that practices an eye for an eye.)

What is more just, then? In my opinion, it would be more just to punish the criminal in such a way that both attempts to rehabilitate him and forces him to improve the life of the victim and the well-being of his community. This can be done through payable damages, community service, etc. Payable damages can be sums of money (I don't know anyone who can't use money). Community service can include anything from picking up litter to helping the homeless find work and a place to live, helping feed the impoverished, or working with at-risk kids to prevent them from becoming criminals themselves...or a number of other important jobs that work to widely improve a community. We see this happening in Western courts. I'm not sure how this works in religious or other courts that may differ from ours.

So you have a choice:

1. Eye for an eye...make the criminal suffer as did his victim.
   
2. A punishment that forces the criminal to pay assets to the victim and to perform a certain requirement of community service (even if it is while incarcerated). Also, if it is fitting, make him take courses or enter programs to help change his negative behaviour.

Tell me, what would serve best to restore harmony to the community?

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

roachboy

in a euro-modern legal system, the state substitutes itself for the victim of a crime. once that happens, "an eye for an eye" stops making sense--in it's place comes the system(s) of equivalents that functions as justice. this does several things--one of which is to route thinking about injury or criminal action through a sense of a social form rather than allowing that thinking to remain locked into one's skull. it puts the state in a position of effectively regulating an overall sense of harmony or well-being.

the other logic, the one enacted by this court, is in comparison maybe intuitively gratifying (judging by the comments above that by=pass the whole basis for modern law and substitute for it the idea that the victim of a crime is the individual upon whom an action was visited) is pretty problematic.

i guess the distinction comes down to how one feels about revenge instead of justice. first there is the problem of error. second there is the problem that barak guru pointed out concerning the effects of revenge. third, there is an ethical matter, which is that the state itself becomes criminal by duplicating the actions of someone convicted of a crime. i don't see the up side of that. if you think about recent events on the order of extraordinary rendition or gitmo, the consequences of criminal action on the part of the state far outweigh any fred and barney "yay revenge" sentiments.

there are a few things that have come along with capitalism that i like--i like indoor plumbing, i like electricity. i like the undercutting of vigilante action in the context of modern law.
i don't see revenge and justice as having much to do with each other.

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dksuddeth

If it's decided that this brutal individual gets to keep his eyes ( and for the record, i'm for making him blind), then this individual should be made her financial caretaker, meaning every dime he makes should go to her.

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mixedmedia

I think this is an odd thing to wish for.

And the state takes care of him?

It's probably no surprise that I think the question posed by the OP is totally ridiculous and anyone who says they support state-sanctioned barbarism hasn't a clue what they are endorsing and if they did live in such a place they would be terrified. That's what I think. It's all good until it's your little Bobby or Billy Sue is being strapped to a piece of wood and caned.

Do you not consider the implications at all of a society that endorses brutal violence as a means of justice? Or do you suppose we will stay just as we are only with a system that carries out maiming and torture as a means of doling out justice? Who is going to carry out these punishments? Do you suppose that they will be sane, reasonable people?

Get a grip people.

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PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Suave

You're using our current faulty system to justify an even faultier method of dealing with crime?

If the deterrent method of crime control actually worked then we'd see the lowest crime rates in the countries with the most draconian laws, and this is certainly not the case. Deterrence, for the most part, does not work particularly well; a great number of criminals are not rational actors, and they do not perform a cost-benefit analysis before they kill someone, mug someone, etc. I'm of the opinion that the retribution handed down for crimes should be repairative - directly to the victim, if possible (not likely so in this case) or at least to society in general. If we do not have a reliable method of preventing crime through the way we deal with offenders, then we may as well attempt to counter some of the social negativity of these acts with the sentence given to those who have been convicted.

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skizziks

If you rehabilitate him and he does community service, the victim is still blind and scarred, you cant change the victims circumstances, so i dont see that as a factor. if we blind and scar the criminal, there ARE two sets of families who have to deal with it, it HAS increased the suffering of mankind overall, but i think it would deter future similar attacks and would definately keep him from doing it again.



the vicitm said she didnt want the money, i dont think the criminal could do anything to satisfy the victim (which is her issue to deal with, another whole topic), so i dont count the victim as part of my decision.

of the two options you offer, the second one definately sounds a lot nicer and better. its what western courts are doing now. i just dont beleive in it, i dont think rehabilitation works 90% of the time. And so, since it hasnt really worked for so many years, why dont we try the extreme approach, make the criminal suffer a similar fate as the crime. perhaps if criminals knew what could happen to them, they would not commit the crime as quickly, and THAT would help restore harmony to the community.

i base my decision off of what an afghani told me once. he had shot up and killed some folks, when i confronted him, he told me he knew the americans couldnt hurt him, we coulndt do anything to him but put him in a cell with his friends and feed him and take care of him, so he wasnt afraid, didnt care, and would wait to be released to do it again.

funny thing, a somali told me the same thing in somalia back in 92.

same thing was told to me by an iraqi. but then we told the iraqi we would turn him over to the iraqis, and he freaked out and was quite cooperative. he knew the iraqis would fuck him up if they got thier hands on him.

the true threat of personal harm, no matter how unpleasant and cruel it seems, to me has proven effective, so i am in favor of it.

roachboy

strange that you would refer to situations involving not only war but occupation to support your claim regarding vigilante-style action (not justice) in such situations---these are exceptional circumstances in which most of the rules that shape regular life are suspended. and even in that context, efficiency is not the same as equitability, not to mention fairness or justice.

writing while at work is a problem, but fortunately ms media filled in the part i skipped over above---justice in a modern--not stone age (read war) context is shaped by procedures--you know, like a trial--and the substitution of state for victim is what enables trials to unfold as they do in the states. while there are obvious problems with the american legal system--most of which have to do with the effects of socio-economic class---even with them, this system is preferable to it's cruder, though maybe in some cases more "efficient" counterpart.

so i really don't understand the arguments in support of this style of law or of punishment, except that it appeals to one's inner flinstone.

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stevie667

In a world of an eye for an eye, the one eyed man is king.


I guess it would have been the Iranians or some nutjob tribe in the middle east that would have done this, so i am not suprised, is that a bad thing?

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skizziks

saudi arabia, where folks are executed almost every friday after prayers in the square, has VERY little crime, and is extremely safe. its a boring shitty police state with a whole lotta human rights violations that no one seems to notice or care about. it is as draconian as you can get. so yeah, it is the case. but who would want to live in that environment?
-----Added 16/12/2008 at 06 : 38 : 15-----
in this instance, my inner unevolved caveman is attracted to this idea, yes. i dont see how throwing acid in someone's face is acting in accordance with rules for regular life. its not like he snaked her parking spot.

if someone could be brutal enough to throw acid into a girls face, i can be brutal enough to throw acid in his face because he threw acid in her face.

(no, "I" couldnt do it. by "I" i mean someone else. but just because i lack the stones to do it doesn't mean i don't think it should happen. go ahead, i know i just opened myself up for all sorts of ridicule and i wont be able to justify it.)

mixedmedia

So, let me get this straight, you are using Afghanistan, Somalia and Iraq as your models of an effective criminal justice system? Are you under the impression that rape and murder and other violent crimes are under control in these places? Because I can send you some links.

And aren't the gentlemen you are referring to in your anecdotes above probably referring to abuse and torture in prison before the implementation of any "justice system"? Do you support that, as well?

What, exactly, do you see going on around you in the US that is worse than in places like present day Afghanistan, Iraq and Somalia?

I can't help but think you haven't really given thought to this.

What sort of influence do you suppose the open approval of brutality has on a society? Are you harboring the opinion that humans need to be dominated? Corralled? Subjected? Punished? Because such a system does not only affect those who commit crimes. It affects everyone in the society and it implies extreme distinctions between government and society that I don't think you're taking into account.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

skizziks

are you under the impression that i don't realize what goes on in those countires and are you under the impression that i am confusing war with a viable justice system?

no, i have given this some thought, and no you misunderstood my point entirely.

the point of my examples was: the only guy who was actually concerned was the guy facing the threat of bodily harm. if the criminals have nothing to fear, they will do what they want knowing nothing bad (direct bodily harm) will happen to them. if they think they will be harmed in some way, they react a whole lot differently. war or not, they were humans and reacted humanly. i can only assume that the threat of direct bodily harm in response to bodily harm would deter a whole lot more criminals.

i also dont see specific punishement for a specific crime as "open approval of brutality." when you commit a certain level of crime, e.g. rape, murder, irrevocable bodily harm caused by acid thrown to the face, you pretty much have decided you are no longer part of society, and so you dont get the benefits of belonging to the society.

dksuddeth

I take it you are not aware of Dr Phils sister in law, cindi?

Dr. Phil.com - Shows - Moments of Crisis

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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Slims

Um, don't confuse causation. The areas with the worst crime rates tend to enact the most draconian laws. Those with lower rates don't typically need to resort to such extremes.

Deterrence definitely works, despite criminals not being a particularly rational bunch. All in all stricter penalties have been shown to discourage criminals.

Aside from deterrence, most criminals in the United States are caught and locked up multiple times. Iran's 'one strike and your out' approach definitely deters future crimes...it's hard to rape and pillage when you don't have any eyes.

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"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

roachboy

wow. so you don't see it as open approval of brutality because you see the people who commit a crime as less than human. you also presuppose guilt, in that kind of mideval "the law is drawn to the guilty" kinda way. if you understand that someone accused of a crime is still a human being, then what you propose is brutality and you approve of it. if you are not worried--seemingly--about questions of actual guilt, then procedure doesn't really matter either--and besides, if the accused is more or less guilty anyway because otherwise the law wouldn't be drawn in that direction, and if guilt (without proof, with proof, what difference does it make?) means less than human...wow. just wow. it's a good thing you have no power.

but there's more. you use experience in military occupier status as your point of departure for a conception of what this kind of barbaric non-justice does and you rely on anecdote only. one of the things that this kind of "thinking results in is a continued spiral of opposition--you replace one form of brutality with another one. way to fucking go. because from a policy viewpoint, none of these situations you allude to--somalia, iraq, afghanistan---have exactly worked out, despite the "efficiency" of this mideval viewpoint translated into action.

sometimes simple is just simple.

edit: if you want to see what the perception created by this kind of attitude translated into policy can result in during peace time, you might take a look at what's been happening in greece this past week and why it got started.

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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

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mixedmedia

Uh, no from what you've gone on to say here I don't think I misunderstood your point at all. It's my point that I think is being missed here. Either missed or ignored.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Cuddly Knife

It's cruel

stevie667

No, it's daytime TV and thus needs to be purged with fire.

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skizziks

roachboy and mixedmedia - my bad. my opinions and beliefs, shaped by what i have seen, done, and experienced, are wrong. you are both right. you win.

Im_not_bitter

Maybe not in this case, but sometimes its hard to draw the line. What if its a repeated incident and the criminal prove that s/he won't change then I wouldn't stray from being barbaric just to maintain some humanity in me, self preservation. But everyone deserve a second chance and playing fire with fire is a poor life choice.

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canuckguy

Either way the guy should have known that something horrendous could happen to him because of his actions. You live within the rules of that country, don't like them get out IMO.

I know that if I kill someone here I'll go to jail for 25+ years. I should not be all that surprised to find myself in the slammer if I kill someone. common sense, in that country they have harsh penalties too bad for him. not.

I think I'll just turn a blind eye to this subject and walk away....

roachboy

skiz: that is an absurd conclusion to draw from either the posts i made or mixedmedia has made here. that there is a distinction between what might make sense intuitively and what makes sense on a macro-scale is not an attack on the legitimacy of the experience that you have had intuitively--what's at issue is whether that experience can be extended into claims about a legal system as a whole, made into a way of thinking about how such a system can work. and there are arguments to be made both ways about this matter. you could have made arguments. this is a discussion that can veer toward debate. you know, an exchange of differing views. given that, you have to expect from time to time that you'll be called out on things. i happens to everyone sooner or later.

i suppose getting all huffy and deciding in a drama queen moment to pack up your toys and leave is a response.
it's just not one that i would have expected.

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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Ayashe

The only positive that I could find with the punishment in this case(a far reach at that) is that it would be a move for justice over the many injustices that women face over there. I in no way am supporting this type of punishment, it is cruel and inhumane regardless.

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highthief

I find it amusing to see right wing Americans finding Shariaa Law to be worthy of praise, even if in a single situation.

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Brewmaniac

I was hoping to start a debate and you guy's never fail to amaze me with intelligent and honest opinions without getting ugly with each other, you make me proud!

Would sentencing him to a life time of chopping wood, breaking coal, raising animals etc. to provide for this woman and her family be to harsh?

The castration for a rapist, is only coming from my daughter's recent forced rough sex incident that started out reluctant & ended with vaginal tearing (from a guy that pick her up and manipulated her into a perceived love, at the wake of her boyfriend, who committed suicide). Then dumped her when she thought she was pregnant!
I wanted much worse, I wanted him dead, It's a blessing that I'm a quad, because I would be in jail right now!

And yes, she sees a shrink and therapist regularly.

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Prince

I don't think the punishment she is seeking is at all unfair. I don't know if eye for an eye would apply to all scenarios by default, but it seems fair in this case. What are the alternatives? Money can't return her sight, nothing can. Jail time isn't going to do anything to help the victim.

As for castration for serial rapists... It's not eye for an eye. Psychological torture of some kind would probably be closer to target, but I'm not suggesting that.

I think these cases should be judged based on individual merits and circumstances. This guy knew what he was doing, he knew it would blind her. I don't see any punishment for his crime more suitable than for him to lose his sight as well.

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Baraka_Guru

Prince, as was indicated in other posts in this thread, there are moral issues of suggesting such a "fair" punishment.

Taking out the big picture, as that's been handled somewhat already, let's parse your own suggestion: you say that it's fair to blind someone who had blinded another. What you have done to another will be done unto you, in all "fairness."

Does this mean it would be proper to teach a child to hit their sibling back to make things "fair"? On a more serious note, if a man murders another's wife in jealousy, is it "fair" to put the first man's wife to death? That sounds "fair," doesn't it?

I want to add, generally, that I'm a bit disturbed that there's yet another person here who's taken the same side of moral legal "justice" on this issue as the minority Iran and Saudi Arabia.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot