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10-28-2008, 06:45 PM | #41 (permalink) | ||
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As for innocent people being subject to the possibility of murder, we're all in that to one degree of another. |
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10-28-2008, 07:11 PM | #42 (permalink) |
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Will, I've probably wanted to kill 10 people a day for the last 20 years. Whether or not we act on it makes all the difference. You act on it once, you can act on it twice and once someone has crossed that very clear line, why are you willing to put other people at risk because "all of us have the potential". It makes no sense.
What do you mean by "it shouldn't be" with regard to hate crimes. You're the one supporting the hate crime which distinguishes between the two. |
10-28-2008, 07:14 PM | #43 (permalink) |
Eat your vegetables
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10-28-2008, 09:52 PM | #45 (permalink) | |||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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BTW, there's no burden of proof in the Palin laughing thing, so it's not on either of you to prove it. It's also incredibly moot. |
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10-29-2008, 05:35 AM | #46 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
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If EVERY offender is a repeat offender, then they shouldn't have been released in the first place.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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10-29-2008, 06:47 AM | #47 (permalink) |
You had me at hello
Location: DC/Coastal VA
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Do you think there should be specific charges for, say, putting a burning cross in a person's yard beyond trespassing and arson?
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I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet Last edited by Poppinjay; 10-29-2008 at 06:50 AM.. |
10-29-2008, 06:57 AM | #48 (permalink) | |
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The reason people are going to say they aren't guessing is because of the stats of recidivism rates.. well.. it's kind of hard to have a recidivism rate for murder when the people are locked up for 25+ years. people will guess at what a person's intent was, and whether or not he intends to do so. it's called psycho analysis.. but in the end it's still a guess. |
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10-29-2008, 06:57 AM | #49 (permalink) |
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I'm not aware of what crimes that are tried as.
But yes, the simplest answer is yes. that's it those crimes are sufficient. If the judge wishes to add penalty because he interprets it as requiring more punishment, I'm fine with that. I'm not fine with creating SPECIAL laws to protect certain classes. If we're all equal, we're all equal.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
10-29-2008, 07:25 AM | #50 (permalink) |
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uh wait...just to go back to the op---with the palin effigy, it seems to me the worst fault here is stupidity. there's no crime.
how did we get around to the question of recidivism? i am confused and i don't have time to go back through the thread at the moment---plus i think it'd be useful at this point to do a quick recap of the logic behind where this is presently. thanks.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
10-29-2008, 09:12 AM | #52 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Sex offenders are likely to repeat. Crimes of passion are not. |
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10-29-2008, 09:17 AM | #53 (permalink) |
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and you've stated it right there... LIKELY.
which is not guarnateed, but LIKELY, likely is equal to a guess. You guess that they are going to commit the crime again. and for the record, sex offenders are not all likely to commit the crime again, especially when sex offenders can be anything from exposing themselves to urinating in public.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
10-29-2008, 09:21 AM | #54 (permalink) |
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i was confused by the leap from making an effigy to a debate about hate crimes that actually take place.
this seems a screwy way to have the second debate, given that a stuffed dummy hangs over the whole thing. this despite the fact that the question was implicit in cyn's op---it seems the base of it---why is x a hate crime-like action and y not one...but i thought this was already more or less settled. then context got stripped out and things went to this other place anyway. it's most strange. it seems like this conservative post-bakke inverto-discrimination logic only obtains in the abstract, and might as well have a stuffed dummy hanging over it.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
10-29-2008, 09:26 AM | #55 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
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can you explain that in something very simple?
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
10-29-2008, 09:34 AM | #56 (permalink) |
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Location: essex ma
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this idea that there's something discrimitory in the application of the notion of hate crime is like blaming affirmative action for racism. same kind of logic.
that's all i meant.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
10-29-2008, 09:44 AM | #57 (permalink) | |
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As someone who was assaulted in Iceland for being a different race, I was not aware of the fact that was the reason for my assault. I had many people telling me how much more horrible it was that there was a hate crime committed. As far as I was concerned, it was a drunk asshole that assaulted me, not a drunk bigoted asshole. I was assaulted. Nothing else. People prompting me to to feel differently was absurd. Assault. Not made worse because I'm a different ethnicity. You know who was more horrified by the hate crime? The other people were who were embarrassed and who felt bad by the actions of the drunk bastard.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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10-29-2008, 09:48 AM | #58 (permalink) |
You had me at hello
Location: DC/Coastal VA
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Which is why it was a hate crime, it affected you - and others.
The drunk guy assaulted you because of your ethnicity. Like it or not, he is a bigoted asshole.
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I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet |
10-29-2008, 10:06 AM | #59 (permalink) |
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sorry I don't buy that.
I don't know that 100% and neither do the people who told me that it was such. They ASSUME it was that, but they weren't there to hear him say anythin OR know his intentions. In fact, you don't know it either, and are equally guessing. Any assault affects others. Any crime makes people pause and think that it could happen to them. Insert race/sex/creed, and suddenly you've sliced the demographic so that only those people will be more scared.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
10-29-2008, 10:46 AM | #60 (permalink) |
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i'm sorry that happened to you, cyn.
i don't buy in any way, at any level, the idea that affirmative action is racist. you cannot arbitrarily detach present from past--you cannot wish away history---and the only way your argument holds is if you wish away history. go for it if you like--to each his own fantasy---but i don't buy it. the argument from this point is not interesting to me, mostly because the gist of it already happened early in the thread and you agreed with the statement there. so i assume this is a separate matter, and one that runs across the experience you outline. so we just disagree about this. also, the hate crime law in the united states would not have obtained in iceland in any event, so i'm not sure i see the connection between that unfortunate incident and the context that shaped such laws in the states. and we're having this discussion underneath an image of a stuffed effigy hanging from ropes, so it's all a bit surreal.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
10-29-2008, 10:56 AM | #61 (permalink) |
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rb, I'm not detaching from history but that's a different subject completely. I'm pendantic about language and it's definitions.
Iceland is/was considering forming laws based on hate/bias because of the influx of immigrants. From the articles I've read they are looking deeper than creation of laws, but more discussion as to where the bias originates from especially in their youth. Maybe abaya can comment more about that since she's there and interfaces with ethnic groups directly. I can only based on my experience, which was a belief that I was just assaulted by a drunk man. Other people, after contacting the police (no police report was filed even the police didn't label it as such) discussed it as a hate/bias crime.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
10-29-2008, 11:02 AM | #62 (permalink) |
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cyn---actually i am a bit pedantic about this kind of definitional thing as well, and the fact is that racism is an ambient condition, a lovely aspect of american history, and is in no way condensed onto either affirmative action or hate crime legislation. racism is what both were set up to address--it is out there in this glorious land, and it's still out there.
but again, we're talking about effigies, so i think we're in a bit of a hysterical context, particularly given the total desperation of the mc-cain campaign, and much of the conservative media apparatus, in the last 6 days before an election that could spell disaster for both. so anything goes, anything at all from the right, it seems. they're willing to generate such little theatrical pieces in the hope that something, anything will change what they think is coming on the 4th. outside of that context, this is lint, the effigy matter. it's stupid, done by stupid thoughtless people.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
10-29-2008, 11:35 AM | #63 (permalink) |
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P.J.,
First, I don't know what the difference is between a "quick reply" and the standard "reply" options. Since I chose "quick reply" I am typing rapidly. I would click on the "go advanced" button but I have an old computer. Second, I don't know how anyone can determine whose reply is directed at whom. Anyway, blacks have a history of being lynched. Thus the difference between a Palin effigy and an Obama effigy. We elect judges to determine if such differences are valid since it is a judgement call. But regardless of who is being effigized, to determine intent requires that one reads the mind of the accused. I remember back in my football playing days I was about to get clobbered when I threw a pass to where my receiver was suppose to be. But he had run the wrong pass route and was nowhere near where the pass landed. I was flagged for "intentional grounding". Like an elected judge in a courtroom, the referee had to guess my motive in order to throw the flag. He guessed incorrectly, but the team was still penalized. |
10-29-2008, 11:35 AM | #64 (permalink) | ||
Location: Iceland
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However, let's say for the sake of argument that something was said about you being of Asian descent. That most certainly gets said to the Thai immigrants here all the time, when people are sober even... moreso in the old days than now, but accusations of "How much did your husband pay for you?" or "Are you working tonight?" (the stereotype of all Asian women being prostitutes, basically) were commonplace. So let's assume something was said to you, something racially derogatory, as you were assaulted. If so, then no, I disagree with this: Quote:
When there was news of a "foreigner-hating crime" (direct translation from the Icelandic term here--they're specific about who they hate, lol) last year--an Arab man getting stabbed in the back by an Icelander downtown, hateful phrases included--you'd better believe we paid attention to that and watched ourselves a little more carefully, for obvious reasons. I don't know about the formation of anti-hate crime legislation, but the Intercultural Center and other immigrant resource centers are working very hard to get educators talking at the youngest levels about tolerance and openness towards foreigners. I think that in the next generation of Icelanders, this will have an effect. But for now, there is still a lot of ignorance out there.
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And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran Last edited by abaya; 10-29-2008 at 11:37 AM.. |
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10-29-2008, 01:35 PM | #65 (permalink) | ||
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But this is about acceptance to the group... via politics and policy. Set legislation to promote or force acceptance via legislation, as opposed to acceptance via assimilation. I don't have more time to expound on it but will try to again later tonight. -----Added 29/10/2008 at 05 : 47 : 27----- Quote:
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. Last edited by Cynthetiq; 10-29-2008 at 01:47 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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10-29-2008, 01:53 PM | #66 (permalink) | |
Winter is Coming
Location: The North
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10-29-2008, 02:06 PM | #67 (permalink) | |
Location: Iceland
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If the context of reception is at least neutral (at best, welcoming), and not hostile/violent to the minority... then the burden truly remains on the minority members themselves to integrate. But that never happens--the context of reception for immigrants/outsiders is initially almost never positive or even neutral, and yes, that does have an effect on their attitude/willingness towards integration. Native residents very rarely consider that consequence of their behavior towards outsiders, but I believe that is the point of anti-hate-crime legislation and why it must take a different tack than regular crime legislation. It is meant to put a stop to (or at least lessen the effect of) perpetuating historical wrongs, and to protect the rights of a minority from a sometimes hostile majority. In a utopia, such legislation will no longer be necessary--but we're not there yet, by far.
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And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran |
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10-30-2008, 12:32 PM | #68 (permalink) | ||||||
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In the two major metropolitans I lived in for almost 20 years in each, the history doesn't show that. Italians, Irish, Germans, Polish, all seemed to "get along" and integrate to some degree without hate crime legislation in NYC. In fact the neighborhoods that were predominately German or Italian are now giving way to other ethnicities. I started reading some information about the NY Hate Crimes Act of 2000 and this write up solidifies for me why I'm against hate crime legislation. New York's Hate Crimes Act of 2000: problematic and redundant legislation aimed at subjective motivation | Albany Law Review | Find Articles at BNET These quotes are taken from the first 4 pages of this article. Quote:
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For example, a black-on-white crime might be classified as a bias crime, but a Tutsi-on-Hutu, Pakistani-on-Indian, or Japanese-on-Chinese motivated act may not. Society should not consider it more reprehensible to shoot someone because he or she is African American rather than because he or she is a Republican. An asshole is an asshole, no matter what. Just like a criminal is a criminal. They aren't more of a criminal becuase they are a bigoted one. Quote:
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. Last edited by Cynthetiq; 10-30-2008 at 12:34 PM.. |
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10-30-2008, 05:14 PM | #69 (permalink) |
Upright
Location: Summerville, SC
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Contrary to present-day popular conception, lynching was not a crime committed exclusively against Black people. During the nineteenth century a significant minority of the lynching victims were white. Between the 1830s and the 1850s the majority of those lynched in the United States were whites. Although a substantial number of white people were victims of this crime, the vast majority of those lynched, by the 1890s and after the turn of the century, were Black people. Actually, the pattern of almost exclusive lynching of Negroes was set during the Reconstruction period. According to the Tuskegee Institute statistics for the period covered in this study, the total number of Black lynching victims was more than two and one-half times as many as the number of whites put to death by lynching.
Lynchings occurred throughout the United States; it was not a sectional crime. However, the great majority of lynchings in the United States took place in the Southern and border states. According to social economist Gunnar Myrdal: “The Southern states account for nine-tenths of the lynchings. More than two-thirds of the remaining one-tenth occurred in the six states which immediately border the South: Maryland, West Virginia, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, and Kansas.”4 Mississippi, Georgia, Texas, Louisiana, and Alabama were the leading lynching states. These five states furnished nearly half the total victims. Mississippi had the highest incidence of lynchings in the South as well as the highest for the nation, with Georgia and Texas taking second and third places, respectively. However, there were lynchings in the North and West. In fact, every state in the continental United States with the exception of Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New Hampshire and Vermont has had lynching casualties. I got this info from 79.02.04: The Negro Holocaust: Lynching and Race Riots in the United States,1880-1950. I find it humorous that people think only blacks were lynched and that it only happened in the south. Check the stats from 1830 - 1850 and check the history for Ohio and Illinois. |
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crime, effigy, hate, noose, obama, palin, racist, sexist |
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