Frosstbyte

I'm apparently not explaining myself very well or very clearly. I do not think of pharmacists as normal business owners who fill the normal role of an individual deciding he needs or wants something and coming to a store and purchasing it from a store selected for purposes of convenience or price or brand goodwill or anything else. They're not like a meat store (halal or otherwise) or a hardware store. I don't go to my pharmacist for him to make any decision or to provide any advice. I go to him because he is a middle man between my doctor and the pharmaceutical industry, and that is all I expect him to be. I expect them to discretely and efficiently provide people with the prescriptions doctors give them and nothing else. I think that it is inappropriate, given that situation, for pharmacists to decide not to provide any type of doctor prescribed drug based on personal beliefs. Ideally, I'd say toss the whole concept and let people get their drugs from doctors or pharmaceutical companies directly so we don't have to worry about nonsense like this.

I'm evidently not going to convince any of you of this, but so it goes.

mcgeedo

No, frosst, you're explaining yourself very well. You said "I do not think of pharmacists as normal business owners" but many people do. That's the difference. You have different expectations of what a pharmacist must or should do than some of us.

You also said "Ideally, I'd say toss the whole concept and let people get their drugs..." and I would complete that sentence "from a business that caters to their particular predjucies, rather than mandating that all business people must think the same as you and believe the same as you. "

Baraka_Guru

I don't think it's been mentioned yet in keeping with the context of the profession, but pharmacists aren't just another business owner. They have responsibilities related to their profession. They even have a code of ethics. Many of them do, at least. Directly from the Ontario College of Pharmacists, this particular principle is related to this issue:

I saw at least one other code that listed something similar. It was sourced to the U.S.

This pharmacist might be breaking a code of ethics here. I couldn't find anything on Virginian pharmacists off the bat, but you never know.

EDIT: What's at issue is that this pharmacist not only refused the fill the prescriptions, they also refused to transfer it. I'm still not entirely sure what that means. Does this mean it would be impossible to fill it elsewhere? Is it possible to get the doctor to do it, or maybe write another one for another pharmacy?

Either way, by refusing to transfer would be in violation of the code in Ontario. So now I'm wondering if there is a similar code in Virginia.

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—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

mrklixx

You can't transfer a prescription that wasn't filled in the first place. If they wouldn't give back the slip (which is theft), then have the doctor write another one.

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Peaches

Baraka... Yes, a pharmacist is just another business owner. Just as a doctor in private practice is a business owner and chooses who he or she accepts as a patient. This is usually, but not always, based on a business model. A private practice must at least break even to stay open. Many private practice physicians in my home state will not accept medicaid patients, and the reason here is financial. It just doesn't pay enough. There is no legal or moral obligation for any given doctor to treat any given patient and he doesn't have to give a reason.

Baraka_Guru

But this isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about whether a pharmacist broke a code of ethics. A pharmacist is just another business owner, except with a code of ethics specific to his or her profession as deemed by the college that issued his or her license and certification. There's a difference. I'm not saying pharmacists don't need to run a business. This isn't what we're talking about here.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

mrklixx

Well since no one answered my other questions, I'll ask another. I wonder if they are also going to choose not to stock HIV (or any other STD for that matter) meds?

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Makedde

On one hand, I think that if you own the store, you can sell whatever you like, and serve whoever you like, but at the same time, not everyone is on birth control to prevent pregnancy. I take the pill to control my periods, as to millions of other women. If I needed a prescription, I expect it to be filled. If some pharmacist refused to fill it, I'd be furious at their assumption that I want it to have sex.

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mcgeedo

"...I'd be furious at their assumption that I want it to have sex."

You'd be furious that someone might think that a birth control pill might have something to do with... wait for it... birth control? Sorry, that just struck me a little funny.

Anyway, back to the program. Many here seem to think that pharmacists are unique. Discounting the one in the article that was stupid enough to throw away the prescription, many have said that they have some sort of special responsibility that overrides their freedoms to a degree. Are there other business or professions where you feel the same? That your demands.... err, I mean "rights" suprecede theirs?

Peaches

Pharmacists are licensed by the state in which they practice. Here are the laws for Virginia

Virginia Board of Pharmacy - Laws & Regulations

Admittedly, I don't have time to read a book on this subject, but after a quick scan, I can find no code of ethics. Additionally, you would think with all the publicity this has gotten, if there was an ethics violation of some kind, charges would have been brought. I can't find any articles on the web that say charges of any kind have been filed. Maybe someone else has seen something with more info about this.


I believe that this is more related to specific church teachings against birth control, as in sex for procreation only. This is most prevalent in the Catholic church. I know of no church that prohibits the treatment of HIV or STD's, and as a matter of fact there are quite a few that participate in, and sponsor programs for those who are HIV positive.

Baraka_Guru

Doctors, dentists, nurses, teachers, financial advisors, restauranteurs, and oil-burner mechanics, to name a few. Each of these professions requires some kind of licensing and/or accreditation. With that comes a set of rules, expectations, and regulations that must be followed in order to maintain good standing. As I mentioned in a previous post here, pharmacists are included in this. The responsibilities are laid out by their industry/profession.

This particular pharmacist aside, pharmacists in general should not make this kind of decision if it violates a code they are subject to. In Ontario, a pharmacist would not be able to do what this Virginian pharmacist did without referring the patient to another pharmacist. I think that's fair.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Poppinjay

A gentle reminder to read the OP.

It does not say they refused to return or transfer a scrip.

It says they are opening under this business model.

They are not breaking a code of ethics.

They are opening with a religious business model, that is their business.

Also, the repeated analogies about refusing service to black people, that just doesn't work - trying to equate religious beliefs with racism. First off, people buy condoms in order to protect themselves in the choices they make. People don't buy condoms to prevent themselves from becoming black.

The one point I find dubious about their model is that birth control drugs are used for other things than birth control. That was a big push behind the attempt to get RU 486 legalized. But then the FDA would be guilty of refusal also.

It's not like there aren't a thousand places within a few miles of this pharmacy that can sell you what you need, as well as several agencies that will provide it for free.

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mrklixx

Therein lies the rub. The overwhelming majority of STDs are transmitted due to extramarital sex, which is also against the church's teachings.

Many non-sexually active women use bc medicine for the sole purpose of regulating/reducing their periods.

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Baraka_Guru

Excellent points, Poppinjay. I still believe that even under this business model, the pharmacists are being unethical. That is, I suppose, only if we can assume they wish to operate for the benefit of the general public and they don't help the patient find out how or where they can get their prescription filled. If they were meant to serve their religious community only, then I imagine I'd be fine with it.

There is a difference between refusing to carry soda and candy and refusing to fill a valid prescription. If someone has a religious reason why they can't do their job, then they should at least find the best way to serve the customer.

I like the idea that there is a code preventing pharmacists from deciding what patients receive on the authority of doctors based on something unrelated. I don't like the idea of pharmacists interfering with the work of doctors. They can refuse to do something based on religion, but I expect them to be professional about it.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

vanblah

Certain hormonal contraceptives are prescribed for reasons other than preventing conception.

mrklixx

It says that others following the same "business model" do.
I've read the OP about 50x now, and I can not find that quote anywhere in the text. Could you please point it out?


Actually, I didn't make an analogy or equate anything. I asked a question because the original article states "In Virginia, though, pharmacists can turn away any prescription for any reason." Being black is a reason.

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Poppinjay

It's not in the OP, it's in the Pharmacist's Code of Ethics quoted upthread.

I think any LEGAL reason is assumed here. You can't deny service in violation of the law. It may be debatable if denial of birth control to anybody is a violation of civil rights. I really think the fact that many health plans that DON'T pay for women's birth control DO pay for Viagra is unethical.

And as far as the Wisconsin case, where the scrip was not returned, that WAS against the law, and the pharmacy was sanctioned.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet