Meridae'n

It would seem that contrary to popular opinion over here, the government DOES give a shit about what we're up to...

Link...

I'm interested in a few other opinions before i state my full view on this...

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What's easier to believe: that a guy was born without sex in the manner of several Greek demigods and grew up to be able to transmute liquids and alter his body density yet couldn't escape government execution, or that three freemasons in a vehicle made with aluminum foil in an era before digital technology escaped our atmosphere, landing on the moon, broadcasted from there, and then flew back without burning up?

losfp

meh... If the government started to spy on me, their agents would all die of boredom

"Dammit... He's reading internet messageboards.. AGAIN"

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Grrr... Argh....

juanvaldes

is anyone surprised by this?

YourNeverThere

people need to wake up and realise that this is going on and its not right. Dont think it won;t get worse and worse intill todays society is stright out of Orwells 1984 becuase every day it gets worse and worse

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The Above post is a direct quote from Shakespeare

Conclamo Ludus

I don't think I have anything to hide.

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Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul
I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold.
-Son House, Death Letter Blues

The_Dude

doesnt australia have a bill of rights?

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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

Phaenx

Exactly, because we wouldn't want our government to know stuff like we sell drugs and support the PLO. Don't tell anyone though, it's a secret. *dragged off to federal prison*

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"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

yatzr

I think our society values privacy too much. But there are two different types of privacy: there is the right to not be seen and the right to be left alone. I think the right to be left alone is necessary for everyone. However, I don't think the right to not be seen is absolutely necessary. It seems weird to think about, but if the entire society was ok with anybody seeing what goes on in their daily lives, there would be less crime. I'm not talking about camera's in everyone's home or anything, more like what many european countries have where people leave their windows and doors open for the world to see. I also think if we gave up our right to not be seen, the government would be more open because then they're not crossing the taboo line of spying on us anyway. That's just a small theory I came up with. Obviously, it will never happen here and there are plenty of flaws, but it's interesting to think about.

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Mechanical Engineers build weapons. Civil Engineers build targets.

lurkette

The problem is with where to draw the line. Arguably when you're in public, you are going to be seen, heard, etc., and your right to privacy ends where the air around you begins. However, the trade-off you're talking about involves giving up privacy in exchange for security, and that's not a trade-off I'm willing to make, nor, would I argue, would most Americans. People would be able to witness illegal activity, but they would also be able to witness any activity that might not be illegal but would be disapproved of. Look at the sodomy case in Texas. Or what if I want to walk around nekkid, or have sex on the living room floor? Or dance the boogaloo, whatever. Bottom line is, I don't want to live in a fishbowl. I'm afraid it would begin to exert a measure of public control over private behavior that would stifle a lot of peoples' ability to just be themselves.

Also, there is a huge difference between simple visibility and the kind of intrusiveness the article describes - having your mail observed, wire taps on phones, etc. It's all fine and good when it's "them" the government is watching - potential terrorists, criminals, whatever, but who is it going to be next? People who disapprove of the government? People who contribute to fringe-y activist groups like PETA? People who subscribe to Adbusters? This kind of invasion of privacy establishes a dangerous precedent, and once granted, these powers are very hard to retract.

At risk of beating a dead horse around here, Ben Franklin said "He who would give up essential liberty in order to have a little security deserves neither liberty, nor security." Amen, Ben.

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"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

spectre

The article:
<hr>
ASIO spying on the increase
By Shelley Hodgson
June 29, 2003

AUSTRALIANS are one of the most spied on people in the Western world, with mail interceptions and telephone taps rising daily.

And civil liberties groups claim new legislation will give ASIO, Australia's main intelligence agency, more power than the FBI in the US and Britain's MI5.

More than 17,000 Australians had their mail investigated, mainly by federal government agencies, last year -- almost 30 times the number checked a decade ago.

Australian police forces are using electronic surveillance at 27 times the per capita rate of their US counterparts. The 2514 court warrants issued for phone taps last financial year -- almost double that issued in the US -- was a tenfold increase in the past decade and a 16 per cent rise on the previous year.

The warrants apply to hundreds of thousands of individual phone calls, and police inspected 733,000 telephone bills, including inward and outward calls. Civil liberties groups claim that level of surveillance makes Australians some of the West's most monitored people.

"I think that if we aren't, we are getting close to it," Australian Council for Civil Liberties president Terry O'Gorman said.

Liberty Victoria's vice-president, Brian Walters, SC, said the amount of snooping was reaching absurd levels. Greens senator Bob Brown said there was a creeping government incursion into citizens' lives, and many Australians were unaware of the degree of surveillance.

Australian police use more phone taps than Britain, Canada or the combined US federal, state and local law enforcement agencies. Those figures do not include ASIO phone taps.

And last financial year almost 60 different government agencies asked Australia Post to disclose information about people's mail – including details of who they were writing to or receiving mail from. A decade ago, there were 695 mail checks, but last year there were 17,210.

The Sunday Herald Sun's figures come from annual reports and a series of Freedom of Information requests.

Now there are fears ASIO's new counter-terrorism powers will permit even more intrusion into citizens' lives. The powers were passed in the Senate last Wednesday night. They give ASIO power to:

DETAIN people for a week for questioning;

APPLY for new warrants after seven days;

PLACE the burden of proof on a suspect to prove they did not have information or records relating to a warrant;

ALLOW penalties of up to five years in jail for those who fail to answer questions accurately.

The Federal Government says the legislation gives ASIO powers to detain and question people believed to have information about terrorist attacks and could help prevent Australians being hurt or killed. But opponents fear innocent Australians could be taken in for questioning.

"The very fact ASIO suspects your friends or your family of somehow being involved (in terrorism) means you can be arrested and held for seven days without anyone knowing where you are," Senator Brown said.

Mr O'Gorman said he believed that, since September 11, fear of terrorism had been exploited to push for greater powers. He said: "The FBI, CIA and MI5 don't have any laws of this sort and haven't asked for any.

"If this sort of law does not exist in the US and UK, and they don't want it, why are we enacting it, with all the civil liberties downsides?"

But Attorney-General Daryl Williams said this week: "This is designed to interrogate people where they are believed to have information relating to terrorism. It's not a system for just detaining somebody. There has to be a justification for the issue of the warrant in the first place."

Sunday Herald Sun
<hr>

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"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

Fade

whatever. If I were to care, what could I do to stop it?

Meridae'n

Actually, we've known about this sort of thing for a while. We don't get all paranoid about civil rights as much as others...

The crux of it is, if you're not doing anything wrong, then you've got nothing to worry about.

If you read it carefully you'll see that most of those comparisons are 'per capita', which is the oldest scare tactic used here. We only have 19-odd million people, US has about 260M (rough figures) so, yeah, it's going to be a high figure when compared 'per capita'.

Don't worry, you'll all catch up to us soon. At least ASIO declares what it does to its public...

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What's easier to believe: that a guy was born without sex in the manner of several Greek demigods and grew up to be able to transmute liquids and alter his body density yet couldn't escape government execution, or that three freemasons in a vehicle made with aluminum foil in an era before digital technology escaped our atmosphere, landing on the moon, broadcasted from there, and then flew back without burning up?

bundy

well, if the boys and girls down at the local ASIO (or DSD) office are spying on me, i´d better make it my responsibility to only view the BEST porn.
so that they can enjoy as well.

*yelling at his computer* - hope you guys like Aria...

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Ohayo!!!

rs8001

Other than speeding (5 to 10 mph over) I can't think of anything I that is illegal. Why should I care if I'm being spied on?

First off, I do perfectly legal things I don't want you, the government, or anyone else to see.

Second, I believe the slippery slope theory does apply to this. Doing something bad in order to prevent something bad is not a solution. It really disheartens me that people don't see this sort of obtrusivness as something bad.

Finally, on top of this there are certian things that are illegal that the government has no business being involved with (again see the Texas sodomy case).

The means to do this via search warrant is a proper and hopefully properly limited way to accomplish this. Opening it up so that the general population can be probed by who knows what part of the government is unacceptable. The individual(s) in question should never have to bear the burden of proof.


Also, related but separate, I don't have a problem with the monitoring of public places. Either by government agencies of public places or by private individuals on their own property i.e. stores, bars, etc.