Infinite_Loser

Didn't see this anywhere else. If it's already been talked about, feel free to mock me for being late.

San Francisco 1st-graders attend teacher's lesbian wedding in 'teachable moment'

Now, I find this to be beyond idiotic. It's almost like they're trying to prove the people who believe that gays are trying to force some kind of agenda upon their children right.

This, in my opinion, goes far beyond the normal reaches of a public school system. Even if you wanted to argue it was for purely 'educational' reasons, it seems odd to me that you would have a bunch of impressionable first graders participate in the ceremony instead of just observing. I don't know of any heterosexual teacher which took his/her class to his/her wedding as a field trip, which leads me to believe this was nothing more than a ploy. However, the political ploy aside, what I don't get is how the school district willingly allowed something like this. Sure, the parents who didn't want their children to go didn't have to go, but couldn't one use the same argument for why prayer should be instituted in school (Those who don't like it can sit out and not participate)?

Imho, someone should be fired (But I doubt anyone will be).

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highthief

Don't see a problem with it. It's a pretty unique sort of field trip. Maybe better than going to the zoo for the zillionth time.

And given that only two families opted out, most people in that school system seem to feel the same way.

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Infinite_Loser

So are you saying that public schools, in this case a charter school, should be able to do whatever they want so long as the majority in a specific district goes along with it? That's an awfully dangerous slope you tread.

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snowy

I don't have a problem with it. They're part of a charter school--meaning that they're probably in a small classroom and have a close relationship with their teacher. Friendly relationships between teacher/student are often much closer in the primary grades. I've known plenty of heterosexual elementary school teachers who have invited students to their wedding--why should it be any different for homosexual school teachers? They took the public bus, so no school resources were used. The only thing they missed was instruction time, but there are plenty of more asinine things that cause students to miss instruction time.

This is really not a big deal, and I agree with the suggestion that it is a teachable moment.

And Infinite_Loser, I hope you are aware that charter schools do not operate under the same rules and conditions that true public schools do.

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Infinite_Loser

First, those teachers are also in the wrong and, second, yes I realize that a charter school isn't as mandated as a 'true' public school, but that does not justify taking a bunch of first-graders to a lesbian wedding and having them actively participate anymore than it justifies taking a bunch of first-graders to a mosque, a synagogue and a church and having them participate to teach them about religious tolerance.

Being a charter school doesn't give you free reign to do whatever is popular. What happened here was inappropriate and, if that's what they want to do, then they shouldn't get public funding to do so.

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filtherton

I don't see a problem with it. Who cares if these kids see two ladies get married?

Cynosure

I assume the school got permission slips from the parents/guardians of each and every student who went on this field trip, just like any school does for any off-campus field trip. And if the parents gave permission, then I really see no problem with this.

(Although, yes, I do think that the person(s) who conducted this had at least some socio-political motives. Then again, few if any persons are purely altruistic.)

highthief

I have no idea what a "charter school" is, however, I have no problem with this situation.

So long as what a school wants to do on a field trip isn't illegal and no one is being forced to do anything they don't want to, I see no issues. Go to the zoo (although some consider zoos immoral and wrong), go sailing (though it might be a little dangerous), check out an art gallery (though some of the art - like half the stuff a guy called Micahaelangelo created - might be called obscene by some), go to the library (though it contains many books full of dangerous and risque ideas), or collect sea shells on the sea shore.

To be frank, I don't see it as being anyone's concern beyond the people in that community.

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Frosstbyte

I think if you took a closer look around in the public charter school world, you'd find a lot of things going on that are quite a bit more damaging than this.

Public charters are a weird world, and not one that's very regulated. I think it's a stretch to call it particularly educational, but I also don't think it's particularly harmful. You're still pulling the "if they see gays, they'll become gay" card, and it's just as meaningless as it ever was. I've seen plenty of kindergarten and first grade kids who are already acting as gay as anyone could be without being fully cognizant of what they're doing.

Publicity stunt, sure; waste of time, maybe; worth any disciplinary action, please.

percy

I think involving any student in out of school private matters is a touchy subject. I would add especially kids this young who may or may not fully understand the significants of the event unfolding before them.

If it were my son or daughter, I wouldn't let them attend, not because I don't support gay rights or the lifestyle, just because I think it is inappropriate for that age group, and the fallout from other(older) kids who may taunt those kids after the fact. Seems to me a lesson that can wait a few years.

Not to derail the thread but, I have to wonder if the consenting parents would be so liberal in their decision if 2 male teachers were getting married.

westothemax

I agree that this is a touchy subject to involve these young students in, but the article didn't say that this was mandatory for all students. I've never heard of students attending their teachers' weddings, but I guess it happens. And I'm sure there were parents who didn't want their children to attend this particular wedding, and I'm sure the kids who did go had the permission of their parents. So in this case, I don't see the problem, and actually now that I think about it, I wouldn't have a problem with letting my kids go to their teacher's wedding, gay or straight. And I really doubt it'd be any different if it were two male teachers getting married instead.

The thing that bothers me about this is Gavin Newsom conveniently being a "friend of a friend" of the teacher and officiating the marriage. I can't stand this guy. While there are numerous problems continuing in San Francisco, like the high rate of homelessness and the increasing number of homicides, all Newsom really seems to be focused on is gay marriage. Don't get me wrong, this is an important issue, just saying he should try to actually fix this city instead of making himself look good for his inevitable bid for higher office.

Willravel

The parents gave them permission, and it was not required. Blame the parents if you have a problem with it.

I find them to be moral people that are capable of demonstrating that consensual love is something to be celebrated.

remy1492

My problem is I'd rather see them studying languages and math like most Europeans do at 7-8yrs old rather than watching a "memorable moment" in some sort of sexual emancipation. Great idea for some, does nothing for the real world.

BlueEyes

It took me a minute to make a decision on how I felt about this. The conclusion that I've come to is that children attending a same-sex wedding is not the issue here.

I don't think that students should be let out of school as an entire class to attend a private event hosted by the teacher. I think that is poor judgement on the teachers part. Not only is she taking away classroom time from these students, but she's messing with the plans of other teachers that interact with these students during the day.

I'm not sure that I think any teacher should include their students in private matters. But, if a teacher truly feels close enough to his/her students to invite them to such event it should not take away from their school day. I'm sure it would not have been difficult to plan this wedding on a weekend.

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Infinite_Loser

Okay. Then, as I said above, following your logic, why not reinstate prayer in school and let those who don't wish to do pray to leave the room? It's the same principle here. By attempting to label it a 'non-issue', you're ignoring the fundamental problem with taking a bunch of 1st graders at a public school to a lesbian wedding (That they're 6 to 7 year olds who are not only being used as a political ploy but are being taken out of class to attend a private function). Just because a bunch of parents signed off on it doesn't make it right nor a non-issue. I'm pretty sure I can get a bunch of parents to sign off on just about anything. That doesn't mean it should occur and/or happen.

In fact, you can't even tell me why this was a good thing or something which was needed in the community or even why it doesn't warrant some kind of punishment. You can be damn sure if a teacher tried to take his or her first-grade class to a place of worship as a 'learning experience' that the outcry would be tremendous.

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highthief

OK, but you should address why it is any of your business - it's happening in a school that I presume has nothing to do with you.

I do think kids should be exposed to a variety of things in life and I'd have no problem with kids going for a field trip to a church, mosque, synagogue, etc. In fact, in a secular school system, I think it's a good idea.

I don't think something that occurs daily (i.e. prayer - or daily lesbian weddings for that matter) would be a good thing to institute. There is a substantial difference between showing kids that something exists and making it part of their daily lives. A bit like the difference between going on vacation and living somewhere.

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percy

I reread the article again and haven't changed my mind that I disagree with what happened. But particularly now because of this:

"She's a really nice teacher. She's the best," said 6-year-old Chava Novogrodsky-Godt, wearing a "No on 8" button on her shirt. "I want her to have a good wedding."

I think making 6 years olds (extreme minors)wear propoganda pins shows a complete lack of civility amongst the adults. I find it hard to believe those kids were there to surprise their teacher. Those kids were puppets for a political agenda. Shame on the parents.

Willravel

If children can be forced to go to church and wear religious paraphernalia, they can do the same thing with politics. Personally, I'm not comfortable with either, but I'd be even more uncomfortable with an inequality.

westothemax

QFT

Its not like the students schedule this semester is filled with gay weddings and no math or science. I think the thing that irks people is it was a same sex wedding. My kid goes to school in the San Francisco Unified School District and went on a field trip to a jellybean factory last year (4th grade). No one considered this irresponsibly taking away classroom time from the kids. At least with a same sex marriage, it is something that is socially and culturally relevant (especially in San Francisco). For those who brought it up, I also don't see any problem with my kids visiting a religious establishment, and my kid did that last year too (Mission Dolores and Mission Santa Cruz).

pig

percy: i think that kid may have been wearing the button because apparently her parents are also same sex wimmins, and they are apparently getting married in 2 weeks.

to the topic - as for whether i think it's right or wrong, it's tough to say based on one article. in a vacuum, i'd have to say that i'd draw the line between a one day affair and a constant daily indoctrination. a same sex wedding would seem to be potentially relevant, particulary given san fran's local politics. you could potentially make it into an interesting discussion topic, i would think. i think i'd feel the same about kids going to a religious ceremony or a secular event, but it all depends on context. this thing sounds like the kids thought it was kind of neat, and maybe they were able to discuss the concept with their families before and after. maybe not a bad thing.

could be you could handle creationism like this. have a field trip where the kids go to a local church and are exposed to a creationist viewpoint with their science class, but the creationism isn't necessarily a part of their curriculum...

edit: the majority of the post wasn't directly specifically at percy - editted to make that clear.

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The Faba

My problem with this...

I've noticed a disturbing trend in America as of the last 10 years, public schools are becoming education centers for liberal dogma. Not to say that liberal dogma is a bad thing, but I thought schools were supposed to be a place of learning scientific facts - not propeganda. I personally had many classroom sessions in 6th through 12th grade turned into hour long bitch-fests at the conservative side of the government. Not the most productive use of French or Civics Class. (Ironically, Civics is supposed to teach how the government is run, not one's opinions on the government...) This is a big problem as the children being fed the propeganda are, in fact, children! They haven't developed their own opinions or their own logic yet - they just walk along blindly following what their instructors feed them. (This is actually happening in my nephews class... he's 8) And if someone does speak out about this method of indoctrinating students - for example, my complaint to the school administration about my french class being used as an outlet for opinions on American politics, the student in question is treated as if he or she is openly rebelling against the system. Sending my High School transcripts, for example, took four tries - and cost me a shot at going to West Point... (They 'accidentally' filed the transcripts to be picked up by me, despite having marked on two seperate requests to be sent directly - as I was instructed by the admissions edpartment, to send them out.)

Of course, this indoctrination is justified because the teachers have their 'free speech' and should be allowed to do it. (This is occuring in New York as I write this) The only problem is that this free speach is infringing on the children and brainwashing them, not allowing them to form their own opinions. The only reason that I strictly blame the liberals in the national school system is that, from my viewpoint, I haven't seen any conservatives in a teaching atmosphere. Even if there were - the liberal presence is much stronger and controls not only the teacher's union, but the school administration and the rest of anything I've left out - which means that anyone who goes against this norm is overshadowed and lost in the deafening propeganda being spewed forth.

I'm reminded of the time directly after the 9/11 terrorist attacks when we were directed to write a report, for English class, on how America caused these strikes on our soil. I spoke out and asked what we were supposed to do if we 'didn't want to blindly follow liberal propeganda and didn't beleive we had done anything to justify the callous muder of a few thousand innocent lives' (Not my specific words or the best way to handle it, but I was tired of this kind of activity occfuring in schools) I was instructed that if I wanted to act this way I should leave the classroom and go to the office - so I shut up. To this day I wish I had sat there and rebuked her. I ended up not writing the paper, then noticed at the end of the year that the paper had been weighted more than twice as much as the other assignments of equal length - which caused my to fail the class by aaround 2%.

So yes, I'm against force feeding children political viewpoints of any kind in schools. I'm against this because of the brainwashing aspect, because of the abuse of power that will NECESSARILY come with it. (As in 'What the hell does this kid know, they're only 13 - what a cheeky prick, I'll fail them because they don't follow what I say - It may not be as blatant or as concious as this, but it will be present) and because of the one sidedness of it, not to mention any other bad thing that will come from it. This is a simple plan to promote a political stance by brainwashing some kids, nothing more - and it sickens me.

Welcome to the corrupt mess of vile putrescance that is our nations school system... available wherever a future voter may be.

filtherton

It could be argued that all viewpoints are political so that even if you weren't having liberal dogma shoved down your throat, you were still have political dogma shoved down your throat.


I think that good schools teach children how to learn and how to think critically, and that part of being able to think critically is being exposed to thing that you are unconventional.

snowy

Since when is recognizing and honoring diversity liberal dogma?

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Cynthetiq

when our math, english scores rival that of european countries... I'd be all for "teachable moments"

until then, I think this was a waste of time.

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Willravel

Since the marriage of the evangelicals and the political right. Now that's a marriage I wouldn't bring my kids to.

Jinn

Amen.

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Baraka_Guru

America has a long way to go to rival many European countries in regard to same-sex marriage. Maybe the two are connected. Maybe more open and progressive societies have a better time at educating their public.

This isn't about math or English; this is more of a social studies thing. Marriage has long been used as a way of fostering public acceptance of a couple's bond and creation of a family. In this day in age in America, more needs to be done to show that lesbian and gay marriage is just as legitimate and worthy of acceptance in society. I think showing this to first-graders is a good way (one of many) to "normalize" the idea of same-sex unions.

Also, in response to some posts in this thread, I think comparing this to religion and religion in schools is a mismatched comparison. It's not the same idea. Sure this is political. What else would it be? Why should we hide children from this ongoing transition in society? This is unavoidable. There is nothing wrong with involving children in this—at least not in this way.

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Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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filtherton

America's problem with math and english education is cultural. It's difficult to convince people that proper english is important when the president doesn't speak it.

highthief

American English scores are not the equal of those in Italy, Romania and Germany!?! Your education system is in worse shape than I thought ...

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Willravel

We have good colleges, but in k-12 we're really falling behind.

Cynthetiq

Asian countries are not very progressive when it comes to same-sex marriages. Some Asian countries tolerate same sex, Philippines, Thailand come to mind, and they aren't the high end of the scholars.

Japan, China, India.... not so much tolerance from what I have been able to gather over the years.

Maybe, is just maybe.

Looking at Muslim countires, which excelled at education in early history, there was no tolerance for same sex follies.

Again, when the schools are as competitive and bringing to bear children who can compete with those from the European countries in education, I'll be all for teachable moments.

If you'd like to call this "social studies" again, if we're talking academics, the US is behind is social studies as well.

Really? So you're pegging this to the last 8 years? When Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, Carter, Nixon, Johnson, our scores were better compared to Europeans? No the English system is far more intensive than the American System. I can say that because I know foreign kids who attended both kinds of schools and was able to compare the curriculums to my own private schooling and comapred to my girlfriend's public schooling. Chinese schools in Singapore are also very competitive. Singapore has slight tolerance for same sex couples.

Well considering that many people speak several languages, maybe they are equal in that respect!

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Poppinjay

How about, "when people stop attacking homosexuals, and in some cases killing them, then I'll be happy."

I'm not aware that both can't be done.

And American schools are not liberal, they're Satanic. They use the tree of knowledge for their seal.

I know my 8th grade algebra teacher was a succubus.

I don't have a problem with the teachable moment, I just think it would be better put to use at a later age. Say 4th or 5th grade when the urges start.

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filtherton

No, but I see how you could get that impression. It doesn't have anything necessarily to do with the president, though the situation isn't really helped when our president can't be relied upon as any sort of intellectual role model.

When I was in elementary school, the prevailing cultural impression that I got from my classmates was that people worked hard at being successful in school were chumps. This didn't really change until I got to college, where there is more self-selection going on. It is still a pretty common notion in the real world: notice how easy intellectuals are demonized during election campaigns.

mcgeedo

"America's problem with math and english education is cultural. It's difficult to convince people that proper english is important when the president doesn't speak it."

It was only a matter of time until someone blamed this on Bush :-)

Cynthetiq

I'd agree with that in the American culture, but not in other cultures. Other cultures school and education is very important.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Stare At The Sun

Would it fly in the bible belt? No.

Does it fly in SF. Yes.

It's all about location, its not like if you are living in SF you are unaware of the fact that your kids are going to grow up in a school system that mirrors the city.

If you don't like living in the uber-liberal city, move out?

filtherton

Yeah, except folks who read the rest of the thread before they responded would have seen that the post directly above the one they just added clarifies that I wasn't, in fact, blaming Bush.
-----Added 14/10/2008 at 03 : 50 : 25-----
I've gotten that same impression, about other cultures taking education more seriously. It seems like that used to be the case in the US. Schools are different now too. I know my dad learned stuff in high school that I didn't learn until I was two and a half years into a BS in ME.

It's probably something along the lines of the idea that children will take the things for which their parents struggled for granted. I feel like perhaps there was a time where as a country the US was pretty serious about being number one in education, then we went to the moon...

westothemax

Not to hijack, but like I said before, all Mayor Newsom seems to care about is same sex marriage. It was really unnecessary for him to officiate this wedding. The reason I'm repeating this is there was another shooting by my apartment last night (6 blocks away), and I live in one of the "quiet" neighborhoods of San Francisco. This is the 88th homicide in SF this year, but still there has been no response from Newsom (or our DA, or our police chief...) about what is going to be done about all these killings. But when it comes to gay marriage, Newsom is all over it.

Peaches

This would never happen in the town I live in because the entire school board would be looking for new jobs come election day. Not only is it a colossal waste of time, but completely age inappropriate. Same sex marriage is not a topic for 5 and 6 year old children. School time is for academics. This, or any other marriage, is a social event.

I am in complete agreement with everything that's been said before about the indoctrination of our children. Teachers should stick to the facts, not preach their opinions to a captive audience. A child of 5 or 6 cannot differentiate between fact and opinion yet. They believe everything the teacher says to be true and correct. Teaching critical thinking need not involve controversial topics at this age.

Willravel

Fact: gay people exist
Fact: many gay people wish to get married

I see this as no more interesting than children going to a heterosexual wedding, and anyone that thinks otherwise should reflect on what homosexuality means.