lktknow

I was putting groceries in my car this past Sunday, when I witnessed something , that I believe should not have happened.
I live near an airport, not a huge airport, but fairly large, and I am directly in the flight path of outgoing and incoming planes.
The grocery store is in close proximity to the airport also, being almost at the end of the runway. I heard, before I saw, what sounded like a jet, F-18 or F-16 taking off, when I looked up as the "plane" crested the grocery store, I was absolutely flabbergasted to see, not one, but two jets, wing tip to wing tip, in what appeared to be a race.
I have a camera in my purse, but to tell you the truth, I was almost in a state of shock, at what I was seeing, and did not react fast enough to get the camera.
I watched as they continued to stay wing tip to wing tip until they do the arc to go out over the ocean.
It is quite stressful, living this close to an airport, because most of us know, it is not a matter of if, only a matter of when, something major is going to happen. Mainly because there is no margin for error left to the pilot, because of the length of the runways, for one thing.
These two jets were military, I'm sure, and it was confirmed that two F-18's, did indeed take off from that airport at the same time. But no further information was given.
If something had have happened, the pilots of those aircraft, could eject, landing safely most likely, whereas , falling debris would have claimed lives.
I may be ignorant of the fact, of jets such as this taking off this way on a regular basis, but it is the first time I had witnessed it.
I immediately came home and emailed a local paper, and asked them to contact someone and tell the military if they want to play games, to do it out over the desert, and not in a populated area, such as this.
am I wrong, and do jets normally take off in this manner?

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ratbastid

While commercial planes are kept as far away from each other as possible, frequently military planes--especially fighters--are flown in close formation. Airplanes in formation can seem alarmingly close from the ground, especially to civilians who aren't used to seeing such things. This doesn't really sound to me like anything to worry about.

telekinetic

yep, non event.



I live by an airforce base and T38's are always taking off in formation and practicing maneuvers.

Tully Mars

Better side by side then one in front of the other. Kind of odd they'd bee doing anything like this over a populated area, but I agree with ratbastid sounds like standard military operational training.

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telekinetic

Additionally, I would heavily disagree with that statement. Does it stress you out living in a city with freeways? Because that is DEFINITELY a case of if, not when, something major is going to happen. Airports? Not so much.

Ayashe

I live just outside of a small airport. The sort of airport that civilians with planes will own a hanger outside of and keep a small plane of their own. Regardless of it being small, they do some shows out of the airport, I have seen this many times. Most larger airports will also have a small military set up somewhere on it. National security is a good thing, I don't mind so much that we have the capability of being spread out like that, planes available at a moments notice. Where I live they also do fly-bys like this for Independence Day, Patriot Day etc.

Gabbyness

It happens hundreds of times per day in dozens of airfields all across the country.

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lktknow

Well, it just goes to show you, you learn something new daily. I was totally unaware of this being normal procedure for the jets to fly that way. Oh, I have seen air shows, but I did not know they flew out of airports in that formation.
And, twistedmosiac, you are right in your analogy of the freeways and the airport, I felt rather dumb after reading that. However, I think the main reason I said it was only a matter of, when, is because , the planes taking off from this airport, are using runways, where it leaves no margin for any type of error . They need longer runways. or??

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Gabbyness

Don't worry, those F-18s only need about 3,000ft to take off.

Now land, on the other hand . . .

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Tully Mars

No. These are high performance jet aircraft capable of doing maneuvers civilian pilots can only dream about. What the "book" and the regulations state and what the aircraft is capable of differ... greatly. Much depends on weight at take off, air density (elevation) , air temp. etc..

Here's an answer from a F18 pilot out of California-

Yahoo! Answers - What is the minimum lenght of a runway an F 18 need to take of f and land?

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telekinetic

The main runway at Long Beach airport, (which, based on my skills as an internet ninja, I assume you are referring to), is 10,000 feet. In a pinch, with a perfect pilot, you could probably land the space shuttle on it. At sea level, there are only a handful of runways longer than 10,000 (LAX is 12,000), and none of them need to be for any aircraft, commercial or military, that I am aware of which is in regular service.

Sticky

Some Canadian Airport runway lengths
Robert L. Stanfield (Halifax) - 8,800ft or 2,682m on the longest runway
Mirabel (near Montreal) - 12,000ft or 3,658m
Pierre Elliot Trudeau (Montreal) - 11,000 or 3,353m on the longest runway
Pearson (Toronto) - 11,120 or 3,389m on the longest runway
London International - 8,800ft or 2,682m on the longest runway
James Armstrong Richardson International (Winnipeg) - 11,000 or 3,353m on the longest runway
Regina International - 7,900ft or 2,408m on the longest runway
Calgary International - 12,675ft or 3,863m on the longest runway
Edmonton International - 11,000 or 3,353m on the longest runway
Vancouver International - 11,500ft or 3,505 on the longest runway

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MSD

Flying wingtip to wingtip is a typical attack/intercept formation. It may have been training, or they may have been scrambled in response to an unidentified aircraft. I've seen what military pilots are capable of, and I would feel safer knowing they're there to deal with anything.

This reminds me that I miss the days before budget cuts when the Air National Guard A-10s would fly right over my house every other weekend. From what I've heard, I am the sole person in the world who thinks they look awesome and not ugly (same with the B-52.)

telekinetic

Nope, I too love both BUFF's and Warthogs.

Tully Mars

I like the "Hog" but I like almost all aircraft.

I had a chance a couple years back to get a ride on a B-52. They were charging around $500 and the ride wasn't long. I just couldn't part with that kind of cash for what seems like such a frivolous thing. Though I admit I wish I'd have done it now.

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thingstodo

I grew up as an AF brat and lived on Air Force bases most of my life. You get used to all the antics. Two taking off together is nothing when you regularlly see 4 do the same thing in formation. The main runway in Germany went right over base housing. What's amazing is to be under a B-52 bomber when landing or taking off.

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lktknow

I'm sorry, I didn't mean they needed longer runways for the F-18's, I meant for the bigger planes that fly out of there, that is what I meant by only a matter of when, as far as the margin for error.
The one runway is sometimes shut down for repair, making them use the shorter runway, which is putting a lot at risk.

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Gabbyness

Four from the same runway = "Stream Go"

Four from adjacent runways = Herd Go

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new man

A B-2 bomber flew right over my community when I was at the pool last weekend. That was incredible. They are so quiet when flying towards you because the exhaust comes out over the top of the wing. This helps diffuse its heat signal but also makes it quieter on approach.

greytone

The F-22's are assembled near my home. They can be seen flying a few approaches with a more traditional jet chasing from behind when they are completed before they get their final paint job. At times they are so close it almost seem like you could reach up and touch them. I am far more afraid of the idiots texting as they drive near me.

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The_Dunedan

Lived 20 miles from Barksdale AFB when I was a kid. You a'int joking.

Seaver

Bingo. Generally when they take off like that it's a scramble maneuver. (short story)

Long Story: Aircraft generally only take off into the wind. This is why any decent size airport has about 7-12 runways, most pointing in different directions. So multiple aircraft have to take off of really 1 runway in as short a time as possible. Wingtip to Wingtip lowers the interference as opposed to infront-behind. So they double-up to avoid the jetwash of the aircraft infront of them. Military aircraft practice this ALL the time, much like firefighters they need to have 0 time wasted when the call is made.

It is also used when pretending to be a larger aircraft on radar. The Israelis used a similar maneuver to mask 5 F-16s to bomb the Iraqi Nuclear site in the '80s. By flying so close together it looks like one large plane instead of multiple smaller ones.

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Tully Mars

7-12 runways? Is this a military thing? LAX has 4 runways, which you could call 8 if you include changes in flight patterns. i.e. 36 inbound north becomes 18 inbound south. No, I didn't look up LAX runway headings, just used a generic north south runway number.

And it's not just "jetwash" you get the same effect in small planes. The front plane creates air turbulence and can cause the rear plane to either loose lift and stall or spin suddenly. As you state side by side is much, much safer.

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Seaver

The base I basically grew up on had 7, and it was a small base. There were 3 in a triangle formation which had parallel runways (6), and the other was one very large one for the unlikely Galaxy landing. The parallel runways are designed in case of aerial attacks, you have multiple runways which increase your chance of an intact runway if someone bombs it. Also, you now have 4 aircraft taking off at the same time as opposed to 2.

And no it's not technically "jetwash", however it's in essence the same. It's the turbulence which comes from the rear jet engine mixed with the vortexes caused by not only the wings but rear fins. I used the term jetwash because it's pretty much all encompassing. In short, you don't want to follow too closely.

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Tully Mars

Wow, that's a lot of runways. Other then landing once in the middle of the night on a C-5 MAC flight I just have no experience with military air bases. I used to land private planes all the time at Tillamook, Oregon which is and old WWII blimp base. Blimp bases don't have a need for a large number of runways.

And you can follow close, just be a higher altitude. The turbulence is naturally pushed down as it leaves the aircraft. I've always wonder about how much planning and effort went into figuring exactly out how far back the plane being fueled in mid air fueling maneuvers is positioned.

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BadNick

For most of the last 35 years I've worked quite close to Willow Grove Naval Air Station. When there is above average activity, about the most common aircraft buzzing around are the A10 Warthogs...I also love those things they are so cool. They can also zoom along pretty fast, but what I find really cool is how slowly they can fly...I almost thought it was a Harrier or something that can hover in place but it was a very slowly moving A10. I think they look like some gigantic killer dinosaur insect thing.

I had these cool pics from a few months ago, San Fran Fleetweek Airshow...I posted this in another section here but it applies again so...check out the air and water disturbance around these guys:

Seaver

Picture generally described as breaking of the sound barrier. Depending on altitude, humidity, etc, this can be true or false. Either way it's amazing to see in person.

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Tully Mars

Awesome pix guys. I don't think I've ever seen a pix of a aircraft breaking the sound barrier.

Also boats and planes, almost as good as porn.

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MSD

My dad told me about seeing the SR-71 take off when he was in Alaska during the cold war. When they need to respond to something fast, it takes off at part throttle, gets a few hundred feet off the ground, afterburners are ignited, and there's a massive sonic boom as it disappears from view. That's something I want to see.